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In the Name of God بسم الله

Nabi, Imam, Rasool

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Salaam Alaikum,

I was trying to understand an argument put forward by Shias to prove that Rasulullah is greater than Ameerul Mo’mineen in our school of thought. Shias say that Rasulullah s.a.w is a nabi, rasool, and imam whereas Ali a.s. is only an Imam. But by a similar logic, wouldn’t Ibraheem a.s. Be greater than Ali a.s. , whilst we know otherwise.

So how can Shias prove that Rasulullah is greater than Ali in our school of thought?

Jazakallah Khayr

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16 minutes ago, Ejaz said:

So how can Shias prove that Rasulullah is greater than Ali in our school of thought?

why does that need to be proven?

Isn't it just common sense that the Prophet (PBUH) is a higher standing than Imam Ali (AS)?

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On 7/26/2018 at 12:31 AM, Akbar673 said:

Isn't it just common sense that the Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) is a higher standing than Imam Ali (عليه السلام)?

Not really. We have sheikhs saying imam Ali (عليه السلام) possessed all the qualities of the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)

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On 7/25/2018 at 9:06 AM, 313_Waiter said:

Salaam Alaikum,

I was trying to understand an argument put forward by Shias to prove that Rasulullah is greater than Ameerul Mo’mineen in our school of thought. Shias say that Rasulullah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is a nabi, rasool, and imam whereas Ali (عليه السلام). is only an Imam. But by a similar logic, wouldn’t Ibraheem (عليه السلام). Be greater than Ali (عليه السلام). , whilst we know otherwise.

So how can Shias prove that Rasulullah is greater than Ali in our school of thought?

Jazakallah Khayr

"I am the City of Knowledge and Ali is its gate."

How can the gate be greater than the city?

17 hours ago, 313_Waiter said:

Not really. We have sheikhs saying imam Ali (عليه السلام) possessed all the qualities of the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)

Possessing all the qualities and possessing all qualities equally are different. Ali (عليه السلام) had to possess all the qualities of Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) because the Quran calls him the nafs (self) of Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).

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21 minutes ago, ShiaMan14 said:

How can the gate be greater than the city?

Do you believe other Prophets of God were likewise cities of knowledge?

Why do the Shi’ah believe their twelve Imams are, God forbid, superior to every Prophet except Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم?

As you said, a gate cannot be greater than the city itself. So how can sayyidina Ali رضى الله عنه be greater than Prophet Jonah على نبينا وعليه الصلاة واسلام for example? Wasn’t Prophet Jonah a city of knowledge in his own right?

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1 hour ago, Cherub786 said:

Do you believe other Prophets of God were likewise cities of knowledge?

Why do the Shi’ah believe their twelve Imams are, God forbid, superior to every Prophet except Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم?

As you said, a gate cannot be greater than the city itself. So how can sayyidina Ali رضى الله عنه be greater than Prophet Jonah على نبينا وعليه الصلاة واسلام for example? Wasn’t Prophet Jonah a city of knowledge in his own right?

Did Hz. Khidr possess more knowledge than Hz Musa?

Possessing more or less knowledge breaks no islamic fundamental other than breaking sunni hearts that this is yet another field Imam Ali (عليه السلام) excels in over other sahaba.

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3 hours ago, Cherub786 said:

Do you believe other Prophets of God were likewise cities of knowledge?

Why do the Shi’ah believe their twelve Imams are, God forbid, superior to every Prophet except Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم?

As you said, a gate cannot be greater than the city itself. So how can sayyidina Ali رضى الله عنه be greater than Prophet Jonah على نبينا وعليه الصلاة واسلام for example? Wasn’t Prophet Jonah a city of knowledge in his own right?

How big is the city of Jonah compared to Prophet Muhamamd (saws)? If the city of knowledge of Prophet Muhammad (saws) is such a large, it is possible that the gate of that city is greater than the city of knowledge of previous prophets. 

Silly the whole argument.

Edited by Abu Nur
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1 minute ago, Abu Nur said:

How big is the city of Jonah compared to Prophet Muhamamd (saws)?

I can’t say exactly. But I will quote the Prophet’s Hadith “whoever says I am better than Jonah son of Amittai has lied”. This Hadith is mutawatir btw.

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Just now, Cherub786 said:

I can’t say exactly. But I will quote the Prophet’s Hadith “whoever says I am better than Jonah son of Amittai has lied”. This Hadith is mutawatir btw.

Better in what? Also that hadith is not hujjah to us.

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Just now, Cherub786 said:

Good. Please define Mutawatir.

How about you stop this silly conversation and understand that your books are not proof for us. If you want to establish a proof for us then find it from our books. 

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3 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

How about you stop this silly conversation and understand that your books are not proof for us. If you want to establish a proof for us then find it from our books. 

How is it a silly conversation? If it was silly why did you claim to know the definition of Mutawatir and now that I request you actually define Mutawatir suddenly the conversation has become silly.

It’s obvious you have no clue what Mutawatir means, if you did, you would never speak about our books vs your books. That demonstrates you are in over your head on this one my boy.

Edited by Cherub786
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1 minute ago, Cherub786 said:

How is it a silly conversation? If it was silly why did you claim to know the definition of Mutawatir and now that I request you actually define Mutawatir suddenly the conversation has become silly.

It’s obvious you have no clue what Mutawatir means, if you did, you would never speak about our books vs your books. That demonstrates you are in over your head on this one my boy.

Are you that thick headed really? It does very matter from which book I take my narrations even if the narration is mutawatir. The context and the text can vary, so of course I care tho hear them from the source of Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام). That's why your books are not proof for us. 

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Just now, Abu Nur said:

Are you that thick headed really? It does very matter from which book I take my narrations even if the narration is mutawatir. The context and the text can vary, so of course I care tho hear them from the source of Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام). That's why your books are not proof for us. 

What is the definition of Mutawatir? If you don’t know just say so.

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6 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

Thick headed indeed. 

Not so, you simply exposed your ignorance by first claiming you knew the definition of Mutawatir, then failed to define it for one of two possible reasons 1. you realized if you gave the definition your original argument of the Hadith not being in Shi’ite literature would prove futile, or 2. you bluffed in claiming to know the definition of Mutawatir but actually don’t

At any rate, let’s recall what you originally said:

1 hour ago, Abu Nur said:

that hadith is not hujjah to us.

Why is the Hadith not hujjah for you despite being Mutawatir? According to you because it’s a “Sunni” Hadith and not found in Shi’ite literature.

Again you are wrong, the Hadith is in your literature, and that shouldn’t be surprising considering the fact it’s Mutawatir as I kept reminding you but you failed to take heed.

قال أبو عبد الله عليه السلام: إن النبي صلى الله عليه وآله يقول: ما ينبغي لاحد أن يقول: أنا خير من يونس ابن متى عليه السلام

Bihar al-Anwar v.14 p.392:

1.png.09abc59061c7e29e609a3bb8d315611d.png2.png.4180f96d03f397c42416c98aa91bde0e.png

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Not so, you simply exposed your ignorance by first claiming you knew the definition of Mutawatir, then failed to define it for one of two possible reasons 1. you realized if you gave the definition your original argument of the Hadith not being in Shi’ite literature would prove futile, or 2. you bluffed in claiming to know the definition of Mutawatir but actually don’t

What are you talking about you deceiver. You are going too far for assuming things. I never described you the meaning of Mutawatir because you know it and I know it and it has nothing to do with any shiias if you are referring it from your books. It is very important from any shia to found the narration from shia books. 

I never claimed the hadith is not in Shia collection. And no, you don't have ilmil ghayb so you are very wrong about bluffing things. 

Quote

Why is the Hadith not hujjah for you despite being Mutawatir? According to you because it’s a “Sunni” Hadith and not found in Shi’ite literature.

Because you were referring a hadith from your books, authenticed by your scholars. I don't take my religion from your books. 

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4 hours ago, Cherub786 said:

They were both Prophets.

Interesting you didn’t bother to answer any of my questions.

Can you show where the Quran states Khidr was a prophet?

I didn't answer the questions because they were quite silly but here you go.

6 hours ago, Cherub786 said:

Do you believe other Prophets of God were likewise cities of knowledge?

 

No.

6 hours ago, Cherub786 said:

Why do the Shi’ah believe their twelve Imams are, God forbid, superior to every Prophet except Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم?

For the same reason we believe the Quran is a superior books compared to all divine books.

6 hours ago, Cherub786 said:

As you said, a gate cannot be greater than the city itself. So how can sayyidina Ali رضى الله عنه be greater than Prophet Jonah على نبينا وعليه الصلاة واسلام for example? Wasn’t Prophet Jonah a city of knowledge in his own right?

No.

Is there a narration that states, "All Prophets are Cities of Knowledge"?

 

 

 

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8 minutes ago, Cherub786 said:

Where does it say he wasn’t a Prophet?

Where in Quran Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has introduced Khizr (عليه السلام) as Prophet? Please refer the verse.

He was introduced as "Abd" in following verse:

فَوَجَدَا عَبْدًا مِّنْ عِبَادِنَا آتَيْنَاهُ رَحْمَةً مِنْ عِندِنَا وَعَلَّمْنَاهُ مِن لَّدُنَّا عِلْمًا

18:65 

 

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9 minutes ago, Cherub786 said:

Surah #? Ayah #?

 

3 minutes ago, Cool said:

Where in Quran Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has introduced Khizr (عليه السلام) as Prophet? Please refer the verse.

He was introduced as "Abd" in following verse:

فَوَجَدَا عَبْدًا مِّنْ عِبَادِنَا آتَيْنَاهُ رَحْمَةً مِنْ عِندِنَا وَعَلَّمْنَاهُ مِن لَّدُنَّا عِلْمًا

18:65 

 

Thanks. I was actually hoping that Cherry would find the verse himself. For someone who seems so familiar and resourceful with shia text, he struggles with Quran and Sunni sources so I am trying to teach him to "fish".

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10 minutes ago, Cool said:

Where in Quran Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has introduced Khizr (عليه السلام) as Prophet? Please refer the verse.

He was introduced as "Abd" in following verse:

فَوَجَدَا عَبْدًا مِّنْ عِبَادِنَا آتَيْنَاهُ رَحْمَةً مِنْ عِندِنَا وَعَلَّمْنَاهُ مِن لَّدُنَّا عِلْمًا

18:65 

Abd and Nabi aren’t mutually exclusive. In fact, every Nabi is necessarily an Abd.

The Ayah you quoted is a strong indication that sayyidina Khidr على نبينا وعليه الصلاة والسلام was a Prophet, because Allah says He gave him Ilm Ladunni direct knowledge from Himself, knowledge which is attained not through study or observation, but through inspiration or revelation. That is a basic characteristic of Prophesy.

Therefore, we will assume sayyidina Khidr was a Prophet unless you bring explicit statement to the contrary from the Quran.

And if you insist that sayyidina Khidr wasn’t a Prophet because he hasn’t been explicitly named ‘Nabi’ in the Quran, then tell me why do you believe sayyidina Adam is a Prophet? In which Ayah has Adam been named ‘Nabi’ or ‘Rasul’?

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@Cherub786 @ShiaMan14 @Abu Nur
Here is the research I have compiled as to why I think Imams ((عليه السلام)) are greater than the Prophets ((عليه السلام)) except the Khatimun Nabieen. Btw as far as I know not all our scholars say imams are better than Prophets, but a lot do. 

Note here that Abraham (عليه السلام) was promoted (not demoted) to the position of Imamah while he was only a messenger previously:

And when his Lord tried Ibrahim with certain words, he fulfilled them. He said: Surely I will make you an Imam of men. Ibrahim said: And of my offspring? My covenant does not include the unjust, said He. (2:124)

Here the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) called Imam Ali ((عليه السلام)) his soul (see the event of Mubahala, why would the Prophet say bring your nafs and our nafs?)

Should anyone argue with you concerning him (Jesus), after the knowledge that has come to you, say, 'Come! Let us call our sons and your sons, our women and your women, our souls and your souls, then let us pray earnestly and call down Allah's curse upon the liars." (3:61)

Here is a sunni hadith about Imam Ali ((عليه السلام)) having all the great characteristics of the Prophets ((عليه السلام)) (Some say it is dhaeef?):

“Whoever wishes to see Adam in his knowledge, Noah in his piety, Abraham in his forbearance, Moses in his strength, and Jesus in his worship and devotion should look at Ali ibn Abi Talib.” al Muhibb al Tabari in al Riyad al Nadirah, ii, 218, 208

Here is another sunni hadith about Imam Ali ((عليه السلام)):

The Light (Noor) of the Prophet (S) and ‘Ali (عليه السلام) preceded the creation of Adam (as):

Salman al-Farsi (رضي الله عنه) narrated that: I heard the Messenger of Allah (S) saying: "I myself, and ‘Ali were one light in the hands of Allah fourteen thousand years (14,000) before He created Adam (عليه السلام). When Allah created Adam (عليه السلام) He divided that light into two parts, one part is me and one part ‘Ali."

Sunni References:

•    ⁠Mizan Al-Ei’tidal, by al-Dhahabi, v1, p235
•    ⁠Fada’il al-Sahaba, by Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v2, p663, Tradition #1130
•    ⁠al-Riyadh al-Nadhirah, by al-Muhib al-Tabari, v2, p164, v3, p154
•    ⁠History of Ibn Asakir Remark: "hand of Allah”means His power. The phrase "within the hands of Allah”means in His presence, domain, realm, kingdom.

Who will Jesus ((عليه السلام)) pray behind?

Also al-Hafiz Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani mentioned that:

"The (Imam) Mahdi is of this Ummah, and that Jesus (S) will come down and pray behind him."

Sunni reference: Fat’h al-Bari, by Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani, v5, p362

As for infallibility, Proof from Qur’an:

Indeed Allah desires to repel all impurity from you, O People of the Household, and purify you with a thorough purification (33:33)

Are the wives part of this infallibility?

The verse

 

"Verily Allah intends to ... (33:33)"

 

was revealed to the Prophet (S) in the house of Umm Salama. Upon that, the Prophet gathered Fatimah, al-Hasan, and al-Husayn, and covered them with a cloak, and he also covered ‘Ali who was behind him. Then the Prophet said: "O’ Allah! These are the Members of my House (Ahlul-Bayt). Keep them away from every impurity and purify them with a perfect purification.”Umm Salama (the wife of Prophet) asked: "Am I also included among them O Apostle of Allah?”the Prophet replied: "You remain in your position and you are toward a good ending."

Sunni reference: Sahih al-Tirmidhi, v5, pp 351,663 (classified sahih by al arnaoot) 

Narration in Mustadrak vol.2 pg.451 

Abu al Abbas Muhammad bin Ya’aqoob said: Al Abbas bin Muhammad bin al Doori from Uthman bin Umar from AbduRahman bin abdullah bin Deenar from Shareek bin Abu Nimr from Ata’a bin yasar fro umm Salamah may Allah be pleased with her that she said: In my house this verse was revealed ” God wants to remove uncleanliness from you Ahlul-Bayt ” She said: The Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) then called for Ali and Fatima and Hassan and Hussein may Allah be pleased with all of them and he said: O Allah these are my Alul-bayt. Umm Salamah said: O Apostle of Allah am I not from your Ahlul-Bayt? The Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) replied: You are my Good Ahl and they are my Ahlul-Bayt, O Lord my Ahl are more deserving

From our own (shia) hadith:

“Another person would come to Imam Muhammad al-Baqir (عليه السلام) saying, “You Imams claim you are infallible?” “Yes.” “What are the proofs for it?” “Why do human beings sin?” “I do not know. You tell me.” “Because of four reasons-either because of anger, or because of lust or because of envy or because of greed. Why would we need to be greedy when Allah has given us the knowledge He has given us? Why would we be envious when we are the grandchildren of the Prophet? Why would we lust over anything when Allah has honored us with the Holy Quran? And why would we get angry over anything when Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has allowed the message of prophethood to be in our lines. Therefore, a person normally commits a sin because of lust or anger or envy or desire, Allah has given us so much that these four things never affect us in our life.””

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10 minutes ago, Cherub786 said:

Abd and Nabi aren’t mutually exclusive. In fact, every Nabi is necessarily an Abd.

Duh, we are all "abd" of Allah.

12 minutes ago, Cherub786 said:

The Ayah you quoted is a strong indication that sayyidina Khidr على نبينا وعليه الصلاة والسلام was a Prophet, because Allah says He gave him Ilm Ladunni direct knowledge from Himself, knowledge which is attained not through study or observation, but through inspiration or revelation. That is a basic characteristic of Prophesy.

Therefore, we will assume sayyidina Khidr was a Prophet unless you bring explicit statement to the contrary from the Quran.

Wait a second - you are obviously an "abd" of Allah. You have claimed to receive inspiration. Are you claiming to be a Nabi now?

I need you to re-confirm your belief in the finality of Muhammad (saw ) as Nabi and Rasool.

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5 minutes ago, ShiaMan14 said:

Wait a second - you are obviously an "abd" of Allah. You have claimed to receive inspiration. Are you claiming to be a Nabi now?

I need you to re-confirm your belief in the finality of Muhammad (saw ) as Nabi and Rasool.

I’m certainly not a Nabi. That is a plain, manifest denial.

Show me a similar denial of Khidr عليه السلام or a denial from the Quran, a verse that says Khidr wasn’t a Prophet.

Otherwise, being a recipient of Ilm Ladunni, and Prophet Moses having taken him as a guide, the default is that he was a Prophet.

I would also like to know where in the Quran it explicitly names Adam ‘Prophet’. If you deny Khidr’s Nubuwwah, why aren’t you consistent and deny Adam’s Nubuwwah too?

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21 minutes ago, Cherub786 said:

I’m certainly not a Nabi. That is a plain, manifest denial.

Good.

21 minutes ago, Cherub786 said:

Show me a similar denial of Khidr عليه السلام or a denial from the Quran, a verse that says Khidr wasn’t a Prophet.

This is so funny. I said Khidr is not a prophet because the Quran doesn't call him a prophet. Now you want me to show you where it says he is not a prophet. Shouldn't it be the other way around? You called him a prophet so you have show that he is.

27 minutes ago, Cherub786 said:

Otherwise, being a recipient of Ilm Ladunni, and Prophet Moses having taken him as a guide, the default is that he was a Prophet.

According to you, anyone can receive direct knowledge/inspiration from Allah. How is that a qualification of prophethood?

28 minutes ago, Cherub786 said:

I would also like to know where in the Quran it explicitly names Adam ‘Prophet’. If you deny Khidr’s Nubuwwah, why aren’t you consistent and deny Adam’s Nubuwwah too?

This is actually a great question. Was Adam a Prophet?

He is called "Khalifa fil ardh" and told to "inform". Those 2 things combined make him a prophet.

But Allah doesn't speak to Khidr at all but only to Moses.

Khidr is not asked teach Moses but Moses is asked to learn from him.

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42 minutes ago, Cherub786 said:

every Nabi is necessarily an Abd.

:hahaha: but every Abd is not a Nabi.

So why not just quote a verse like that:

قَالَ يَا مُوسَى إِنِّي اصْطَفَيْتُكَ عَلَى النَّاسِ بِرِسَالاَتِي وَبِكَلاَمِي فَخُذْ مَا آتَيْتُكَ وَكُن مِّنَ الشَّاكِرِينَ

7:144

51 minutes ago, Cherub786 said:

The Ayah you quoted is a strong indication that sayyidina Khidr على نبينا وعليه الصلاة والسلام was a Prophet, because Allah says He gave him Ilm Ladunni direct knowledge from Himself, knowledge which is attained not through study or observation, but through inspiration or revelation. That is a basic characteristic of Prophesy.

So you got ilhaam, therefore you're a Prophet?

53 minutes ago, Cherub786 said:

Therefore, we will assume sayyidina Khidr was a Prophet unless you bring explicit statement to the contrary from the Quran

Therefore we will assume Khidr (عليه السلام) is an Abd unless you bring explicit statement to the contrary from Quran. 

See the reverse swing & you're clean bold. :hahaha:

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35 minutes ago, Cherub786 said:

Show me a similar denial of Khidr عليه السلام or a denial from the Quran, a verse that says Khidr wasn’t a Prophet.

:hahaha: a verse says he is an Abd, every Abd is not a Nabi. So it is upto you to bring the verse from Quran to prove his prophecy.

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