Water, God's Throne, The Smoke, The Sky

[SoRoUsH]

Salam, 

وَهُوَ الَّذِي خَلَقَ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضَ فِي سِتَّةِ أَيَّامٍ وَكَانَ عَرْشُهُ عَلَى الْمَاءِ لِيَبْلُوَكُمْ أَيُّكُمْ أَحْسَنُ عَمَلًا ۗ وَلَئِن قُلْتَ إِنَّكُم مَّبْعُوثُونَ مِن بَعْدِ الْمَوْتِ لَيَقُولَنَّ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا إِنْ هَٰذَا إِلَّا سِحْرٌ مُّبِينٌ 

And it is He who created the heavens and the earth in six days - and His Throne had been upon water - that He might test you as to which of you is best in deed. But if you say, "Indeed, you are resurrected after death," those who disbelieve will surely say, "This is not but obvious magic." (11:7)

Questions: 

1. Are water and God's Throne created or eternal?
   • It seems that God created the world while on His Throne upon water. This of course entails that His Throne and Water were already there. 
   • The alternative view is that He created His Throne and Water before the heavens and earth. 
   • Note: Commonly, God's Throne is viewed as His knowledge and power. However, in this verse, we must question that common view, since it's "located" upon Water. 
     • So, is this verse referring to a physical Throne? 
     • OR alternatively, water here has a metaphorical meaning? Non-physical water?

 

ثُمَّ اسْتَوَىٰ إِلَى السَّمَاءِ وَهِيَ دُخَانٌ فَقَالَ لَهَا وَلِلْأَرْضِ ائْتِيَا طَوْعًا أَوْ كَرْهًا قَالَتَا أَتَيْنَا طَائِعِينَ 

Then He directed Himself to the heaven while it was smoke and said to it and to the earth, "Come [into being], willingly or by compulsion." They said, "We have come willingly." (41:11)

Questions: 

1. Is the smoke, which formed later into heaven created or eternal? 

• Clearly it already existed before the creation of the sky.
• There was earth and smoke, The smoke was the sky, one sky, السَّمَاءِ
• Both, sky and earth, are conscious and have will power. They speak and willingly obeyed God's command. 

 

فَقَضَاهُنَّ سَبْعَ سَمَاوَاتٍ فِي يَوْمَيْنِ وَأَوْحَىٰ فِي كُلِّ سَمَاءٍ أَمْرَهَا ۚ وَزَيَّنَّا السَّمَاءَ الدُّنْيَا بِمَصَابِيحَ وَحِفْظًا ۚ ذَٰلِكَ تَقْدِيرُ الْعَزِيزِ الْعَلِيمِ  

And He completed them as seven heavens within two days and inspired in each heaven its command. And We adorned the nearest heaven with lamps and as protection. That is the determination of the Exalted in Might, the Knowing. (41:12)

 

Questions:

1. God speaks of "Them," right after talking about Earth and Sky. He completed Them as seven skies. Does this imply that Earth is a constituent of the seven skies? If so, then this verse cannot be referring the Earth we're located on. 
   • God inspire ALL SKY (كُلِّ سَمَاءٍ) 
     • He inspires The SKY (singular) after creating the seven skies (Plural). This verse may be referring to the smoke. He inspired the smoke, from which he made the sky (singular) and later completed the seven skies. 

[Urwatul Wuthqa]

5 hours ago, SoRoUsH said:

Questions: 

1. Are water and God's Throne created or eternal?
   • It seems that God created the world while on His Throne upon water. This of course entails that His Throne and Water were already there. 
   • The alternative view is that He created His Throne and Water before the heavens and earth. 
   • Note: Commonly, God's Throne is viewed as His knowledge and power. However, in this verse, we must question that common view, since it's "located" upon Water. 
     • So, is this verse referring to a physical Throne? 
     • OR alternatively, water here has a metaphorical meaning? Non-physical water?

Salamun Alaikum Brother! 

Both of them are His (s.w.t) creations and not eternal.

I have found a hadith, which would help you to understand the verse;

"‘Al-Mamoun asked Abu Al-Hassan Al-Reza (asws) about the Words of Allah (azwj) Mighty and Majestic: And He is the One Who Created the skies and the earth in six days and His Throne was upon the water, in order to Try you, which one of you is better in deeds [11:7].

He (asws) said: ‘Surely Allah (azwj) Blessed and Exalted Created the Throne, and the water, and the Angels before He (azwj) Created the skies and the earth. And the Angels used to infer by themselves, and by the Throne, and by the water, to Allah (azwj) Mighty and Majestic. Then He (azwj) Made His Throne to be upon the water, in order to manifest His Power by that to the Angels, so that they would come to know that He (azwj) has Power over every thing. Then He (azwj) Raised the Throne by His Power and Transferred it, so He Made it to be above the seventh sky.

And He (azwj) Created the skies and the earth in six days [11:7], and He (azwj) Took Control upon His (azwj) Throne. And He (azwj) has all the Power to Create it in the blink of an eye, but the Mighty and Majestic Created it in six days, in order to Manifest to the Angels what He (azwj) Created from it, a thing after a thing. So they were evidenced by the occurrence of what occurred, to Allah (azwj) the Exalted, time and again.

And Allah (azwj) did not Create the Throne for any need of His (azwj), because He is above any need of the Throne, and from all of what He Created. He (azwj) cannot be described to be upon the Throne, because He has no physical form. Elevated is Allah (azwj) from the attributes of His creatures, Higher and Greater. And as for His (azwj) Words: in order to Try you, which one of you is better in deeds [11:7], so He (azwj), the Mighty and Majestic Created His creatures in order to Test them by the effort of being obedient to Him, and worship of Him, not upon the way of the examination and the experience, because He never ceased to be AllKnowing of every thing’. So Al-Mamoun said, ‘You have relieved me – O Abu AlHassan (asws) – may Allah (azwj) Relieve you."

عيون أخبار ال ّرضا  1 :134 /3

I will try to add another hadith (In-sha Allah) on this thread which mentions the throne and its creation, in detail. 

[Urwatul Wuthqa]

6 hours ago, SoRoUsH said:

Questions: 

1. Is the smoke, which formed later into heaven created or eternal? 

• Clearly it already existed before the creation of the sky.
• There was earth and smoke, The smoke was the sky, one sky, السَّمَاءِ
• Both, sky and earth, are conscious and have will power. They speak and willingly obeyed God's command. 

 

"Ali Bin Ibrahim – And His (azwj) Words: Then He Directed Himself to the sky [41:11], i.e., Masterminded and Created, and it was asked of Abu Al-Hassan Al-Reza (asws) about the one whom Allah (azwj) Spoke to who were neither from the Jinn nor from the Human Being, so he (asws) said: ‘The skies and the earth, in the Words of the Exalted: “Come, willingly or unwillingly!” They both said: ‘We come willingly’ [41:11]’."

Allah (s.w.t) is He who gives everything the capacity to speak, so our skins will too speak on the day of judgement as mentioned in the following verse of Quran:
 

وَقَالُوا لِجُلُودِهِمْ لِمَ شَهِدتُّمْ عَلَيْنَا قَالُوا أَنطَقَنَا اللَّهُ الَّذِي أَنطَقَ كُلَّ شَيْءٍ وَهُوَ خَلَقَكُمْ أَوَّلَ مَرَّةٍ وَإِلَيْهِ تُرْجَعُونَ

41:21
 

[SoRoUsH]

8 hours ago, Salsabeel said:

Both of them are His (s.w.t) creations and not eternal.

Salam, 

These ahadith imply that the God's Throne is a physical object, whereas in other ahadith we read that it refers to God's knowledge and power. So, (1) a question that remain is whether God's Throne is a physical, corporeal entity, or does it refer to God's knowledge and power, which is non-physical and immaterial. 

Also, what is fascinating and remains a big issue is God's creation of water before heavens and earth. (2) What does this "Water" refer to? There was water before heavens and earth. (3) Is this the same water that we drink? 

(4) Is everything made from this primordial water? (5) What is the nature of this Primordial water?

God places His Throne (physical or non-physical) on this water. (6) If the Throne is non-physical, then how can it be "upon" physical water? Unless we concede that this water is non-physical, too. However, if the Throne is a physical entity, then it must have a specific spatial location.

It is more problematic to think of the Throne as a physical entity. Since all physical entities are constrained by space and limited. (7) Is God's Throne spatially limited? If God's Throne is limited, in one way or another, then (8) how can it refer to God's knowledge and power as we've seen in other ahadith?

 

I've asked many questions, because there's much to be clarified. I'll change the colour of all the questions to red, so they're not missed.

[S.M.H.A.]

just as an fyi;

“According to the Holy Prophet, the material sphere in comparison to the immediate immaterial sphere beyond it is like a small ring thrown in a huge desert. And that sphere has the same  relation in comparison to its immediate sphere beyond it, and so on to the Throne and Seat(Arsh and Kursi) which are figurative terms for immaterial spheres encompassing the material, and all intermediary immaterial spheres  to the first manifestation of the Absolute. This process house is always subject to partial or total change and expansion, according to the well-planned will of Creator…” (1)

(1)Page 245

Essence of the Holy Quran (The Eternal Light)

By: Ayatullah Agha Haji Mirza Mahdi Pooya.

[SoRoUsH]

8 hours ago, Salsabeel said:

"Ali Bin Ibrahim – And His (azwj) Words: Then He Directed Himself to the sky [41:11], i.e., Masterminded and Created, and it was asked of Abu Al-Hassan Al-Reza (asws) about the one whom Allah (azwj) Spoke to who were neither from the Jinn nor from the Human Being, so he (asws) said: ‘The skies and the earth, in the Words of the Exalted: “Come, willingly or unwillingly!” They both said: ‘We come willingly’ [41:11]’."

Allah (s.w.t) is He who gives everything the capacity to speak, so our skins will too speak on the day of judgement as mentioned in the following verse of Quran:
 

وَقَالُوا لِجُلُودِهِمْ لِمَ شَهِدتُّمْ عَلَيْنَا قَالُوا أَنطَقَنَا اللَّهُ الَّذِي أَنطَقَ كُلَّ شَيْءٍ وَهُوَ خَلَقَكُمْ أَوَّلَ مَرَّةٍ وَإِلَيْهِ تُرْجَعُونَ

41:21
 

Salam, 

Thank you. 

This hadith does not address the creation of The Smoke. Do you happen to know of one that does? The Smoke was there before God created the heavens. First He created The Sky, from which He created seven skies. 

What is this Smoke?

Did God create the Primordial Water and Smoke together, or did The Water precede The Smoke? 

Is This Smoke created, too?

[SoRoUsH]

4 minutes ago, S.M.H.A. said:

just as an fyi;

“According to the Holy Prophet, the material sphere in comparison to the immediate immaterial sphere beyond it is like a small ring thrown in a huge desert. And that sphere has the same  relation in comparison to its immediate sphere beyond it, and so on to the Throne and Seat(Arsh and Kursi) which are figurative terms for immaterial spheres encompassing the material, and all intermediary immaterial spheres  to the first manifestation of the Absolute. This process house is always subject to partial or total change and expansion, according to the well-planned will of Creator…” (1)

(1)Page 245

Essence of the Holy Quran (The Eternal Light)

By: Ayatullah Agha Haji Mirza Mahdi Pooya.

Salam, 

Thank you. 

However, where does this interpretation leave room for The Primordial Water? If His Throne is figurative, then so much be The Water. Right? 

[S.M.H.A.]

Say, Ya Ali(as)  یا علی

*****

In Light of  is a very clear fundamental principle/concept. Nothing above is of any issue.

"He is with everything but not in physical nearness. He is different from everything but not in physical separation..."

https://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-1-sermons/sermon-1-praise-due-Allah-whose-worth-cannot-be-descrive#creation-universe

[SoRoUsH]

20 minutes ago, S.M.H.A. said:

Say, Ya Ali(as)  یا علی

*****

In Light of  is a very clear fundamental principle/concept. Nothing above is of any issue.

"He is with everything but not in physical nearness. He is different from everything but not in physical separation..."

https://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-1-sermons/sermon-1-praise-due-Allah-whose-worth-cannot-be-descrive#creation-universe

The subject of discussion is not God. We're not discussing God, rather His Throne and The Water beneath His Throne. He (God) is not physical. Nobody disagrees with this. But what about His Throne? Physical or non-physical? What about The Water upon which is His Throne? Physical or non-physical?

[Qa'im]

The Throne, as you know, is knowledge. It is the intelligible realm that encompasses the natural realm (kursi). The Throne is carried (upheld) by eight. Before the natural realm was fashioned and compartmentalized the way it is now, it was one pool of primordial water - formless, colourless, united. At this point, the entirety of the water upheld the Throne. Then, Allah created the heavens and the Earth out of that water.

“Have those who disbelieved not considered that the heavens and the earth were a joined entity, then We separated them, and made from water every living thing?  Then will they not believe?” (21:30)

The water is the first creation after the mashi'a, and the Throne sprung up atop that water.

[S.M.H.A.]

16 minutes ago, SoRoUsH said:

The subject of discussion is not God. We're not discussing God, rather His Throne and The Water beneath His Throne. He (God) is not physical. Nobody disagrees with this. But what about His Throne? Physical or non-physical? What about The Water upon which is His Throne? Physical or non-physical?

 

Quote

It seems that God created the world while on His Throne upon water. 

If as you said " He (God) is not physical." It should be self explanatory, 

what are you trying to get at? 

[SoRoUsH]

3 minutes ago, Qa'im said:

The Throne, as you know, is knowledge. It is the intelligible realm that encompasses the natural realm (kursi). The Throne is carried (upheld) by eight. Before the natural realm was fashioned and compartmentalized the way it is now, it was one pool of primordial water - formless, colourless, united. At this point, the entirety of the water upheld the Throne. Then, Allah created the heavens and the Earth out of that water.

“Have those who disbelieved not considered that the heavens and the earth were a joined entity, then We separated them, and made from water every living thing?  Then will they not believe?” (21:30)

The water is the first creation after the mashi'a, and the Throne sprung up atop that water.

Ok. Let's untangle this!

The knowledge of Allah, The Throne, was carried/upheld by eight (angels). (1) What does it mean for God's knowledge to be carried/upheld by angels? 

The natural realm was created from the primordial water. In other words, the primordial water was created before the natural world. So, clearly, this primordial water is not the water we drink. If the natural realm to be fashioned from this primordial water, then this water itself ought to be natural. (2) Does natural imply physical/corporeal? If the natural world is corporeal, and it is fashioned from this primordial water, then this water must itself be natural, matter before being enformed. (3) How does natural water, physical and corporeal water, uphold God's Throne, God's immaterial knowledge? (4) Is God's knowledge infused into this primordial water, which in turn makes it intelligent at least to some degree? 

(5) Could you please find the hadith that informs that the water is the first creation after Mashi'a? 

Lastly, God made from water every living thing. However, (6) if this water is the very prime matter, before all things, then why does God specific living things?

 

[SoRoUsH]

1 minute ago, S.M.H.A. said:

what are you trying to get at? 

The following: 

1) Is God's Throne corporeal or incorporeal?

2) Is the Primordial water upon which God's Throne rests, corporeal or incorporeal?

You can read my reply to Qa'im and see the follow up questions. 

[S.M.H.A.]

وَهُوَ الَّذِي خَلَقَ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضَ فِي سِتَّةِ أَيَّامٍ وَكَانَ عَرْشُهُ عَلَى الْمَاءِ لِيَبْلُوَكُمْ أَيُّكُمْ أَحْسَنُ عَمَلًا ۗ وَلَئِنْ قُلْتَ إِنَّكُمْ مَبْعُوثُونَ مِنْ بَعْدِ الْمَوْتِ لَيَقُولَنَّ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا إِنْ هَٰذَا إِلَّا سِحْرٌ مُبِينٌ {7}

[Pickthal 11:7] And He it is Who created the heavens and the earth in six Days - and His Throne was upon the water - that He might try you, which of you is best in conduct. Yet if thou (O Muhammad) sayest: Lo! ye will be raised again after death! those who disbelieve will surely say: This is naught but mere magic.
[Pooya/Ali Commentary 11:7]

Refer to the commentary of Araf: 54 for the creation of the universe, and al Baqarah: 255 for the seat of divine authority. The creation of the universe is not a sport, nor a whim, on the part of Allah. This life is testing time, but the disbelievers, who do not believe in a future life of the hereafter, think all talk of it is like a sorcerer's talk, empty of reality.

Aqa Mahdi Puya says:

Water, the perennial matter, from which the physical universe (terrestrial and celestial bodies) has been formed, is described as liquid, amenable to take any form, to prove that there is no limit to the possibility of development or, change in the matter, which implies a free competition in the process of continuity and progress. However perfect one may be, the possibility of further perfection is always there to try and attain, for which the Quran asks the Holy Prophet to pray in verse 114 of Ta Ha.

After dealing with the process and purpose of creation, the reference to "raising up after death" may either refer to the present state in which man is (when he is nothing, unworthy of mention-Dahr: 1) or to the resurrection as the consequence of the life of this world. The raising up after death through an evolutionary process, which the Quran frequently mentions, appears as a fascinating but unreliable statement to the ignorant disbelievers, therefore they say it is a sorcery.

http://quran.al-islam.org/

[S.M.H.A.]

3 minutes ago, SoRoUsH said:

The following: 

1) Is God's Throne corporeal or incorporeal?

2) Is the Primordial water upon which God's Throne rests, corporeal or incorporeal?

As a Layman, What Actionable knowledge would I gain from this? 

[Qa'im]

18 minutes ago, SoRoUsH said:

Ok. Let's untangle this!

The knowledge of Allah, The Throne, was carried/upheld by eight (angels). (1) What does it mean for God's knowledge to be carried/upheld by angels? 

The natural realm was created from the primordial water. In other words, the primordial water was created before the natural world. So, clearly, this primordial water is not the water we drink. If the natural realm to be fashioned from this primordial water, then this water itself ought to be natural. (2) Does natural imply physical/corporeal? If the natural world is corporeal, and it is fashioned from this primordial water, then this water must itself be natural, matter before being enformed. (3) How does natural water, physical and corporeal water, uphold God's Throne, God's immaterial knowledge? (4) Is God's knowledge infused into this primordial water, which in turn makes it intelligent at least to some degree? 

(5) Could you please find the hadith that informs that the water is the first creation after Mashi'a? 

Lastly, God made from water every living thing. However, (6) if this water is the very prime matter, before all things, then why does God specific living things?

1. The carriers of the Throne are mediators between the intelligible realm and the natural realm. They bring down the wahi, the rizq, life and death from the former to the latter. We do not receive those things directly from the Throne.

2. The water is not H2O, it is the flowing mechanics that undergird the realm of the kursi (heavens and Earth). You can compare it to the concept of fields. Einstein’s equations in his theory of relativity are largely a generalization of fluid mechanics. Gravitational fields and general matter fields are also based on fluid mechanics.

3. In the same way that you, a material being, can uphold knowledge, an immaterial thing.

4. The knowledge is not infused in the creation, it is simply capable of upholding the knowledge.

5. There are a few narrations to this affect, but here is one offhand:

قال أبو جعفر (عليه السلام) : ما قالوا شيئاً, اخبرك أن الله علا ذكره كان ولا شيء غيره, وكان عزيزاً ولا عز, لأنه كان قبل عزه وذلك قوله : (( سبحَانَ رَبّكَ رَبّ العزَّة عَمَّا يَصفونَ )) (الصافات:180) وكان خالقاً ولا مخلوق, فأوّل شيء خلقه من خلقه الشيء الذي جميع الأشياء منه, وهو الماء ( اصول الكافي 1 / 21 ح 14 ) .

Imam al-Baqir (as) said, “Surely, Allah was [Alone], and there was no thing other than Him. He was Glorious (عزيزاً), but without glory, because He was prior to glory, and that is His saying, ‘Exalted is your Lord, the Lord of glory, above what they describe’ (37:180). He was a Creator without a creation. So the first thing that He created in His creation was the thing that everything is from, and that is water.”

6. Because the Throne is not a living thing, whilst all living things begin with water.

[SoRoUsH]

Thank you brother Qa'im, 

Things are more clear in my mind now. 

What's the best translation and definition for God's Mashi'a? 

The primordial water seems comparable to energy fields. 

Also, don't we have reliable hadith that define knowledge as light? 

It is still a mystery how we hold knowledge. The conventional view is by building neural connections inside our brains. However, I can't see how this could apply to water upholding God's knowledge. So, most likely, our conventional scientific view of obtaining and holding onto knwoledge is mistaken. 

[SoRoUsH]

34 minutes ago, S.M.H.A. said:

As a Layman, What Actionable knowledge would I gain from this? 

Obviously, I don't adhere to this mentality, and in this thread, I will not discuss the reasons. 

[S.M.H.A.]

We will see, at the end of this thread. If we achieved clarity on something that is of basic fundamental concern or we neglected / were not fully aware of the basic(s) and started a sub topic that created more confusion. 

[Qa'im]

37 minutes ago, SoRoUsH said:

Thank you brother Qa'im, 

Things are more clear in my mind now. 

What's the best translation and definition for God's Mashi'a? 

The primordial water seems comparable to energy fields. 

Also, don't we have reliable hadith that define knowledge as light? 

It is still a mystery how we hold knowledge. The conventional view is by building neural connections inside our brains. However, I can't see how this could apply to water upholding God's knowledge. So, most likely, our conventional scientific view of obtaining and holding onto knwoledge is mistaken. 

The mashi'a is the divine will. It is the possible realm, which encompasses the intelligible realm (throne), which encompasses the natural realm (kursi). The mashi'a is one process that has four dgrees: mashi'a, irada, qadr, qada. The first degree is the wish for a thing, the second degree is the assertion of that wish, the third degree is the organization of the parameters needed to bring about that wish, and the fourth degree is its execution.

عدة من أصحابنا، عن أحمد بن محمد بن خالد، عن أبيه، عن ابن أبي عمير، عن ابن اذينة، عن محمد بن مسلم، عن أبي عبد الله عليه السلام قال: المشيئة محدثة.

Imam as-Sadiq (as) said: "The will (mashi'a) is created."

علي بن إبراهيم، عن أبيه، عن ابن أبي عمير، عن عمر بن اذينة، عن أبي عبد الله عليه السلام قال: خلق الله المشيئة بنفسها ثم خلق الاشياء بالمشيئة.

Imam as-Sadiq (as) said, "Allah created the will by itself, then He created the things with the will."

3يا يونس تعلم ما؛ المشيئة قلت لا قال هي الذکر الاول فتعلم ما الارادة قلت لا قال هي العزيمة على ما يشاء فتعلم ما القدر قلت لا قال هي الهندسة و وضع الحدود من البقاء و الفناء قال ثم قال و القضاء هو الابرام و اقامة العين

Imam ar-Rida (as) said, “O Yunus! Do you know what the will (mashi’a) is?” Yunus said, “No.” Imam ar-Rida (as) said, “It is the first utterance (الذکر الاول). So do you know what the wish (الارادة) is?” He said, “No.” The Imam said, “It is the invitation to what He wants. So do you know what determining (qadr) is?” He said, “No.” The Imam said, “It is designing and organizing the parameters from beginning to end. And actualization (qada) is the confirmation and the establishment of the thing.”

---

Knowledge is indeed light, as is faith (iman). Light is the vehicle of Allah's guidance.

[SoRoUsH]

27 minutes ago, S.M.H.A. said:

We will see, at the end of this thread. If we achieved clarity on something that is of basic fundamental concern or we neglected / were not fully aware of the basic(s) and started a sub topic that created more confusion. 

I don't understand your mentality, but I've already achieved much clarity and am glad to have asked my questions. 

 

[S.M.H.A.]

2 minutes ago, SoRoUsH said:

I don't understand your mentality, but I've already achieved much clarity and am glad to have asked my questions. 

 

Now I understand what you meant. How did you get this impression? 

[SoRoUsH]

13 minutes ago, Qa'im said:

المشيئة محدثة

Salam, 

Is there a reason that God has used محدثة instead of خلق?

Interestingly, years ago, I posted all of the three ahadith that you mentioned, in my blog.

I tried to find out what is meant by الذکر الاول, but still do not know. What do you think?

 

 

[Qa'im]

3 minutes ago, SoRoUsH said:

 

Is there a reason that God has used محدثة instead of خلق?

Interestingly, years ago, I posted all of the three ahadith that you mentioned, in my blog.

I tried to find out what is meant by الذکر الاول, but still do not know. What do you think?

One hadith says khalaq, the other hadith says muHdatha. They both indicate that it is created and not eternal.

As for al-Dhikr al-Awwal, it means that it is the first thing that Allah brought about ("be" and it is).

[SoRoUsH]

1 minute ago, Qa'im said:

One hadith says khalaq, the other hadith says muHdatha. They both indicate that it is created and not eternal.

As for al-Dhikr al-Awwal, it means that it is the first thing that Allah brought about ("be" and it is).

You're right. 

It makes sense!

[SoRoUsH]

Brother Qa'im, 

What are your thoughts on the second verse regarding The Smoke and The Sky? 

[Urwatul Wuthqa]

3 hours ago, SoRoUsH said:

Salam, 

Thank you. 

This hadith does not address the creation of The Smoke. Do you happen to know of one that does? The Smoke was there before God created the heavens. First He created The Sky, from which He created seven skies. 

What is this Smoke?

The verse clearly mentioning that:

Surah Fussilat, Verse 11:
ثُمَّ اسْتَوَىٰ إِلَى السَّمَاءِ وَهِيَ دُخَانٌ فَقَالَ لَهَا وَلِلْأَرْضِ ائْتِيَا طَوْعًا أَوْ كَرْهًا قَالَتَا أَتَيْنَا طَائِعِينَ

Then He directed Himself to the heaven and it is a vapor, so He said to it and to the earth: Come both, willingly or unwillingly. They both said: We come willingly.
(English - Shakir)

The heaven was in the form of dukhan.

3 hours ago, SoRoUsH said:

Did God create the Primordial Water and Smoke together, or did The Water precede The Smoke? 

I think you will find the answer in the sermon of Imam Ali (asws) where he has described the creation of universe. 

And there is another hadith, I will try to share them both here.