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Open Borders?

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Is the world headed towards open borders, as depicted in Moshin Hamid’s novel, “Exit West”?  
 
Advocates of open borders promote these arguments:
  1.  Economic.  It would create a richer world - doubling the world’s GDP.  Workers who move from a poor country to a rich one join a work market with monetary capital and a functioning legal system. It is estimated that more than two thirds of a person’s wealth is determined by where they live.
  2. Morality.  Where you are born is a matter of chance.  There is no moral reason to compel people to live in a poor country. Those born in a rich country have no moral right to exclude others from their country of wealth.
Opponents of open borders promote these arguments:
  1. Poorer people in the migrants destination countries would suffer.  New arrivals would depress their wages and compete with them for social housing, etc and unemployment benefits.  Welfare states would collapse due to the millions of unemployable migrants.
  2. Cultural conflicts and clashes between native and immigrants would threaten social stability.
 
The UN estimates that 258 million people now live in places other than their place of birth - an increase of 50% since 2000. 65 million were forcibly displaced.  Most migrated to poor or middle income countries. Rich countries have taken in only a fraction of the most vulnerable.  
 
The Western nations need to do more to alleviate the suffering of millions - often displaced and fractured due to Western foreign policy. 
 
Will there now be authentic public support for this move, given the protests against detaining migrants and their children who illegally cross borders?  Will actions follow words? How committed are we to promoting a welcome to people who seek to access basic rights and opportunities even when it will possibly impact our current standard of living and sense of security?

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Among other things, l see Europe a little farther ahead than the US is in their emerging immigration policies and "Fortress Europe" of the last 30 years.

ln the US, l do not think this is going to go well. Civil strife at a minimum is on-the-way.

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57 minutes ago, notme said:

We aren't ready for open borders.

But very generous immigration policies are better for the economy - people who want to work are able to work. 

Uhty, the illegal entries surging across our borders have at best 6th grade educations.

Other than working for Tyson (used as example) what are going to do? They cannot support themselves.

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1 hour ago, hasanhh said:

Uhty, the illegal entries surging across our borders have at best 6th grade educations.

Other than working for Tyson (used as example) what are going to do? They cannot support themselves.

Illegal entries have, for the most part, had no to '6h grade' education and yet they made things work and made America great. General Kelly's great grandfather was a wagon driver and grandmother illiterate. Throughout America's short history people have come to US to seek a better life- the rich and the educated have always been comfy where ever they are. Its these mass of the poor, the under privileged, and the uneducated that have made America great.

America and Americans should ONLY talk about their borders the day they recognize other countries' borders. They cant rob countries, crash economies, and disregard every rule and law under the sun and yet expect others to respect its borders. 

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3 hours ago, notme said:

We aren't ready for open borders.

But very generous immigration policies are better for the economy - people who want to work are able to work. 

I totally agree that immigration should be open to whoever needs a safe home and an opportunity to better their life circumstances.  Individuals will be more committed to contributing to their new community when they don't have to sneak in the back door and beg for a better life on a daily basis.

Not sure what you mean by "not ready" so would be interested in understanding that further.  However, I am sure the people who were displaced from their homes and livelihood were "not ready" to be homeless and destitute - often as a result of American foreign policy might that sought to invade and destabilize their homes so that America could gather wealth and power.  The people who are the most ready, even if reluctantly, are the people benefiting from this subsequent wealth and power.  They have options and abilities and untapped readiness that is clearly out of reach to most of the global population.

Edited by forte

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@Wahdat  The academic demands of a modern economy far exceed those of 19th and 20th Centuries. They don't speak English, either.

And as l wrote before, we have another 1 1/2 million high school drop outs every year that for the most part cannot get jobs.

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2 hours ago, hasanhh said:

Uhty, the illegal entries surging across our borders have at best 6th grade educations.

Other than working for Tyson (used as example) what are going to do? They cannot support themselves.

How educated do you need to be to turn the stop sign at a road construction site? To pick fruit? To clean out storm sewers with a vacuum truck? And how many Americans do you know who dream of having these jobs?

Back when I first started out in civil engineering, I was a construction manager for a municipality. Several of my general contractors told me, without being asked, that I should learn to speak Spanish if I wanted to stay in the construction field, because the Hispanic immigrant crews were the hardest working and most careful, and were highly sought after. My contractors told me the work ethic was part of their culture, and their other crews, their crews of English speaking natural born citizens, were "lazy" in comparison. Maybe my anecdote is atypical, but it's what I've seen. Which of those types of crews do you think earned the companies more money - the educated ones, or the ones with a cultural ethic which values pride in your work? 

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23 minutes ago, forte said:

Not sure what you mean by "not ready" so would be interested in understanding that further. 

I mean at least in the US, people are so divided and so divisive, they aren't going to popularly vote for open immigration. 

I think there should be some minimal screening. People should not have a criminal background or contagious illness, and they should at least have a plan for where they will go and what work they will do, if it's impossible to secure a job and residence before arrival. 

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28 minutes ago, notme said:

How educated do you need to be to turn the stop sign at a road construction site? To pick fruit? To clean out storm sewers with a vacuum truck? And how many Americans do you know who dream of having these jobs?

The road-sign-turners around here are all whites and mostly female.

You didn't follow-up on what l wrote about mechanical harvesting of everything.

When my storm sewers were hosed out this past Spring there were two men and one woman, all white.

In the 70s, any job was a dream.

You didn't answer: what about our own drop-out dummies?

Nightly Business Report, PBS, Friday, 29June18 had a piece on our manufacturing jobs being shipped to Mexico where the pay averages $4 per hour as compared to $39 in the US and $36 in Canada. These illegal entries already have a lot of our jobs.

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50 minutes ago, hasanhh said:

@Wahdat  The academic demands of a modern economy far exceed those of 19th and 20th Centuries. They don't speak English, either.

And as l wrote before, we have another 1 1/2 million high school drop outs every year that for the most part cannot get jobs.

The US economy would collapse if it were not for uneducated workers because they undertake work others are not willing to do, and yes this includes local high school drop outs with no job prospects.  Furthermore, US businesses depend on these workers to keep wages low and exploit poor people with no legal recourse. The state could get rid of poor migrant workers in an instant if it wanted to, but it wants just the opposite.

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1 hour ago, hasanhh said:

@Wahdat  The academic demands of a modern economy far exceed those of 19th and 20th Centuries. They don't speak English, either.

And as l wrote before, we have another 1 1/2 million high school drop outs every year that for the most part cannot get jobs.

Productivity is productivity in every era. A rich investor or educated immigrant would be far more positive for the economy now and it were the case back then. For your 1 1/2 million high school drop outs I have a fantastic idea....take 1 % of the money that your country spends on overrunning borders of other countries like Syria and invest it in skill building programs. 
The root of the current problem, be it in America or elsewhere, is very American- its America's broken system. Migrants are poor and convenient excuse.

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4 hours ago, Sumerian said:

Strange policy. Maybe when the world gets rid of terrorism and gang violence.

During the Thatcher-Reagan era, there was a discussion of treating the (then) cartels and all the same as pirates a couple centuries ago.

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8 hours ago, hasanhh said:

You didn't follow-up on what l wrote about mechanical harvesting of everything.

You didn't answer: what about our own drop-out dummies?

Automaton will reduce the number of jobs, but right now manpower is cheaper in many cases. But it's not just unskilled jobs that are being automated. When is the last time you met an employed CAD technician, or for that matter a draftsman? Every job can be at least somewhat automated. 

Our own dropouts can go back to school, enter training programs, or compete for the unskilled jobs with the unskilled immigrants. 

Look, it's pure capitalism to want to hire the best workers for the lowest legally permitted price. Unskilled immigrants will do better work for lower pay. I can't believe I, a "pinko hippie tree hugger" am arguing the capitalist side of the argument with @hasanhh!

Edited by notme

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11 minutes ago, notme said:

Automaton will reduce the number of jobs, but right now manpower is cheaper in many cases. But it's not just unskilled jobs that are being automated. When is the last time you met an employed CAD technician, or for that matter a draftsman? Every job can be at least somewhat automated. 

Our own dropouts can go back to school, enter training programs, or compete for the unskilled jobs with the unskilled immigrants. 

Look, it's pure capitalism to want to hire the best workers for the lowest legally permitted price. Unskilled immigrants will do better work for lower pay. I can't believe I, a "pinko hippie tree hugger" am arguing the capitalist side of the argument with @hasanhh!

But then you're arguing for exploitation of the immigrants. You can't complain about workers rights in one place then talk in positive terms about the work illegal immigrants are doing while they getting paid below the minimum wage. No?

Edited by Sumerian

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5 minutes ago, Sumerian said:

But then you're arguing for exploitation of the immigrants. You can't complain about workers rights in one place then talk in positive terms about the work illegal immigrants are doing while they getting paid below the minimum wage. No?

Yes, I can argue both sides. It's a brain-flaw I've always had. I'm not saying pay them less than minimum wage or don't allow them to form unions to request better pay and working conditions. I'm saying if people will do better work for lower pay, those are the people the companies want, regardless of which side of the border they originate. 

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3 minutes ago, notme said:

Yes, I can argue both sides. It's a brain-flaw I've always had. I'm not saying pay them less than minimum wage or don't allow them to form unions to request better pay and working conditions. I'm saying if people will do better work for lower pay, those are the people the companies want, regardless of which side of the border they originate. 

Okay, but that's not what is actually happening. These illegal immigrants who are in the US and working really hard are currently being exploited by US corporations and factories and there is very little they can do about it. That's what is currently happening.

And just because they generate a lot of money for the economy doesn't make it right. Practically every apologist for exploitation said it is good for the economy, that doesn't make it moral. 

Morals > Profits

Edited by Sumerian

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4 minutes ago, Sumerian said:

Okay, but that's not what is actually happening. These illegal immigrants who are in the US and working really hard are currently being exploited by US corporations and factories and there is very little they can do about it. That's what is currently happening.

True, and that's one of the problems with capitalism, valuing profit over people. But if they had legal residency status, they would have legal protection, and if the borders were opened, nobody would need to have undocumented status. It would help the people, but hurt the capitalists, to allow open immigration. 

 

Maybe that's how they need to approach illegal immigration: rather than prosecute the undocumented workers, prosecute the exploitative employers. I can guarantee it would stop. But that won't happen because the employers are rich and therefore powerful. They are above the law.

Edited by notme

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9 minutes ago, notme said:

True, and that's one of the problems with capitalism, valuing profit over people. But if they had legal residency status, they would have legal protection, and if the borders were opened, nobody would need to have undocumented status. It would help the people, but hurt the capitalists, to allow open immigration. 

 

Maybe that's how they need to approach illegal immigration: rather than prosecute the undocumented workers, prosecute the exploitative employers. I can guarantee it would stop. But that won't happen because the employers are rich and therefore powerful. They are above the law.

Global open immigration would then have to entail globally approved and signed worker's rights to ensure exploitation doesn't happen, but that is extremely difficult to do even if it is the best solution and something I would agree with.

Add to that, just as I said before, gang violence and terrorism will have to seriously be reduced for this to be an option in the first place.

But this is the ideal, and as the world continues to improve and become more connected and technology continues to improve at a rapid rate, one day borders might be eliminated. That would be fantastic. I think 200 years from now people will be laughing at the idea that borders existed, and maybe even at the idea of a nation-state to begin with.

As you can see I am not against your views, I think we both want a better environment with less barriers for humans, it's the difference in implementation.

Edited by Sumerian

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Even if open borders at the moment may sound like a pipe-dream, I am, at least, for freer borders because that would also result in freer academic exchange. Even if we agree to keep the admission process in all the top-notch higher educational institutions around the world strictly meritocratic, we must realize that stringent visa norms, bureaucratic red-tapes involved in the immigration process, baffling procedural complexities mean that many promising students and budding academics who deserve to be at these centers of excellence are unable to make it to these places. Freer exchange of ideas and freer interaction among all the great minds, along with the ability of these institutions to benefit more and more rising and deserving academics from their resources would greatly stimulate academic activity, and thereby net productivity within the academia.

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2 hours ago, Sumerian said:

Global open immigration would then have to entail globally approved and signed worker's rights to ensure exploitation doesn't happen, but that is extremely difficult to do even if it is the best solution and something I would agree with.

Add to that, just as I said before, gang violence and terrorism will have to seriously be reduced for this to be an option in the first place.

But this is the ideal, and as the world continues to improve and become more connected and technology continues to improve at a rapid rate, one day borders might be eliminated. That would be fantastic. I think 200 years from now people will be laughing at the idea that borders existed, and maybe even at the idea of a nation-state to begin with.

As you can see I am not against your views, I think we both want a better environment with less barriers for humans, it's the difference in implementation.

“Poverty is the parent of revolution and crime.” Aristotle

There are many studies that link poverty and crime.  A study in Sweden (a country that collects tons of data about its citizens) showed that those who had grown up in families whose earnings were in the bottom fifth, were seven times more likely to be convicted of violent crimes and twice more likely to be convicted of drug offences than those in the top fifth.  
 
However, what was interesting is that even if these families had an increase in income (such as over time and effort the families' income grew) the younger children born into the family with more financial comfort than their older siblings had, maintained the same level of criminality.  The family culture of criminality had been established and the younger siblings followed along - at least in that generation.  Lots of theories as to why this occurs but one is that the family is not yet secure in their new socio economic status.  It takes at least a couple of generations to develop a sense of financial and social security.  Solutions to addressing crime and violence need to be accepted as long term.
 
Part of "open borders” acceptance is acknowledging that gangs and violence are present - there needs to be planning for an infrastructure of services to address this.  No one, with options, prefers to inject themselves with drugs to face the day, seek validation from belonging to a criminal gang, live in constant fear, attack and be attacked, and be shunned from the functioning part of society. 
 
Understanding the precursors to a criminal life style and providing options  (adequate safe housing, food, health care, education opportunities for all - not just for targeted identified needs groups but for all) does successfully address destructive behaviour.  To judge the effectiveness of this, just look at the criminality rate of countries that provide these basic needs for all of their citizens as a matter of public policy - not for just a specific targeted group with sporadic funding of uncertain duration, depending on the politics of the day.
 
 

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4 hours ago, notme said:

I, a "pinko hippie tree hugger" am arguing the capitalist side of the argument

And even for a "pink, hippie, tree hugger" your capitalist conceptualizations are seen wanting.

 Also note these   ^_^_^_^_^_^_^_^_^_^  punctuation corrections above.

Youz Welcome   :D

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3 hours ago, forte said:

“Poverty is the parent of revolution and crime.” Aristotle

There are many studies that link poverty and crime.  A study in Sweden (a country that collects tons of data about its citizens) showed that those who had grown up in families whose earnings were in the bottom fifth, were seven times more likely to be convicted of violent crimes and twice more likely to be convicted of drug offences than those in the top fifth.  
 
However, what was interesting is that even if these families had an increase in income (such as over time and effort the families' income grew) the younger children born into the family with more financial comfort than their older siblings had, maintained the same level of criminality.  The family culture of criminality had been established and the younger siblings followed along - at least in that generation.  Lots of theories as to why this occurs but one is that the family is not yet secure in their new socio economic status.  It takes at least a couple of generations to develop a sense of financial and social security.  Solutions to addressing crime and violence need to be accepted as long term.
 
Part of "open borders” acceptance is acknowledging that gangs and violence are present - there needs to be planning for an infrastructure of services to address this.  No one, with options, prefers to inject themselves with drugs to face the day, seek validation from belonging to a criminal gang, live in constant fear, attack and be attacked, and be shunned from the functioning part of society. 
 
Understanding the precursors to a criminal life style and providing options  (adequate safe housing, food, health care, education opportunities for all - not just for targeted identified needs groups but for all) does successfully address destructive behaviour.  To judge the effectiveness of this, just look at the criminality rate of countries that provide these basic needs for all of their citizens as a matter of public policy - not for just a specific targeted group with sporadic funding of uncertain duration, depending on the politics of the day.
 
 

Therefore the US and Europe should make sure to reduce the poverty and crime in the countries from which the immigrants and refugees are coming from before they seek full open borders. To start off, they need to eliminate the policies which have at many times caused the destruction of these places. And I think this is inevitable, the poverty rate worldwide has been reduced because smarter policies are being implemented, the world is only going to get richer. I think increased globalisation and economic interconnection between countries should be perfected before open borders is pursued.

Also, terrorism is a big one. That is much different from gangs, that's an even worse problem. You don't want to be taking in people from countries where ISIS has great influence via an open borders policy. 

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9 hours ago, hasanhh said:

Bro, this part l do not understand from the preceeding context.

We hear the populist chants, that justify xenophobia & baby jails, where the Chinese are accused of thievery in trade and immigrants thievery in jobs. Both are not accurate. If China was stealing in trade then US should have been worse off for it cuz it was being stolen from. right? But if you look at the books of the American giants from Walmart to Apple you'd see that they are getting richer and richer. The reason for the downfall of the American middle class is the broken American system where redistribution of wealth is highly in favour of the rich...through tax cuts by the likes of Trump...while blaming immigrants for the hardships imposed on the middle class....and the stupid middle class dancing to his racist & inhumane tunes. You want a good middle class? Tax the rich....dont give them billions.

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