Are people of Islam the Last People?

[megaman]

Hi guys.

Is there the belief among Muslim that they are the Final people?

Quote

And every nation hath its term, and when its term cometh, they cannot put it off an hour nor yet advance (it).

وَلِكُلِّ أُمَّةٍ أَجَلٌ ۖ فَإِذَا جَاءَ أَجَلُهُمْ لَا يَسْتَأْخِرُونَ سَاعَةً ۖ وَلَا يَسْتَقْدِمُونَ - 7:34

This verse makes it clear for me that every people have a time. For example Judaism ended with the Proclamation of Christ and Christianity ended with the Proclamation of Prophet Muhammad. Are Muslims the last people or will something follow?

Quote

Thus We appointed you a midmost nation that you might be witnesses to the people, and that the Messenger might be a witness to you; and We did not appoint the direction thou wast facing, except that We might know who followed the Messenger from him who turned on his heels -- though it were a grave thing save for those whom God has guided; but God would never leave your faith to waste - truly, God is All-gentle with the people, All-compassionate.

وَكَذَٰلِكَ جَعَلْنَاكُمْ أُمَّةً وَسَطًا لِّتَكُونُوا شُهَدَاءَ عَلَى النَّاسِ وَيَكُونَ الرَّسُولُ عَلَيْكُمْ شَهِيدًا ۗ وَمَا جَعَلْنَا الْقِبْلَةَ الَّتِي كُنتَ عَلَيْهَا إِلَّا لِنَعْلَمَ مَن يَتَّبِعُ الرَّسُولَ مِمَّن يَنقَلِبُ عَلَىٰ عَقِبَيْهِ ۚ وَإِن كَانَتْ لَكَبِيرَةً إِلَّا عَلَى الَّذِينَ هَدَى اللَّهُ ۗ وَمَا كَانَ اللَّهُ لِيُضِيعَ إِيمَانَكُمْ ۚ إِنَّ اللَّهَ بِالنَّاسِ لَرَءُوفٌ رَّحِيمٌ - 2:143

My understanding from this verse is that there is a people to come after.

There is also a Hadith which testifieh to this truth:

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The Messenger of Allah said: "At the end of the time of my ummah, the Mahdi will appear. Allah will grant him rain, the earth will bring forth its fruits, he will give a lot of money, cattle will increase and the ummah will become great. He will rule for seven or eight years.  -Abu Sa‘id al-Khudri i

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahdi

 

[Tamy]

This is so interesting!

[Ashvazdanghe]

12 hours ago, megaman said:

My understanding from this verse is that there is a people to come afte

Some people will back from past from time of Prophet Adam(as) until now ,during & after of reappearance of Imam Mahdi (aj) to experience justice & what promised also peoples that born after reappearance will be from current people but in best situation.

The Awaited -The Raj’a -return (part1]

The Raj’a

[megaman]

Hi @Ashvazdanghe, what I meant was the people from the Dispensation of Islam. Like each religion has a set time.

Regarding Raj’a, I don't think it's physical but rather the attributes and realities surrounding that person. For example how they suffered or how patient and kind they were.

[Ashvazdanghe]

2 hours ago, megaman said:

Regarding Raj’a, I don't think it's physical but rather the attributes and realities surrounding that person. For example how they suffered or how patient and kind they were.

hi @megaman it would be physical , if it was just spiritual ,the Raj'a wasn't necessary & they could see it as now see world from spirit view.

[Badi19]

Hi Megaman,

I can understand your motive behind this post.

You want to say (according to Quran) that every Ummah has a fixed time and that Islam's time is over after 1000 years (Baha'is believe that every religion has a time of 1000 years) and now this is a "New Era", a "New Age" when "God Manifested Himself" (in the body of Baha'u'llah) and people can now "See the God (or his glory) with their own Eyes" and that Islam has expired (Collapsed), Yaum-e-Qayamah has passed and this is the "New Day" of Baha'i Faith. RIGHT? And that everyone should accept the "Glory of God" Mr. Baha'u'llah, because only though his teachings the "Most Great Peace" would come? RIGHT?

[Badi19]

3 hours ago, megaman said:

Hi @Ashvazdanghe, what I meant was the people from the Dispensation of Islam. Like each religion has a set time.

Regarding Raj’a, I don't think it's physical but rather the attributes and realities surrounding that person. For example how they suffered or how patient and kind they were.

Ok. So, Baha'u'llah is the metaphorical return of Imam Husayn? Can you tell me how? Comparing "suffering" of Baha'u'llah to that of Imam Husayn is a great intellectual injustice. Baha'u'llah did not "suffered" because of his beliefs or his conscience, he suffered because of the crimes that he and his followers committed. Being a leader of a group that tried to kill Naseruddin Shah, the murders of Azalis, the riots that Babis caused in different parts of Iran, the criminal actions of Babis and Baha'is, the support that he received from the Russian imperialist empire.

Baha'u'llah calls himself "the wronged one" but he spent all his life in luxuries, mansions and gardens. Go and see the pictures of his homes in Baghdad, Turkey and Israel!

Only time when Baha'u'llah may have suffered a great deal is when his mother used to beat his father in his home in Shimiran. Read this:

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With the backing of the Prime Minister and her powerful nephew, his last wife forced through the divorce with such a heavy settlement that he could not pay it immediately: so she had Bahá'u'lláh's father imprisoned in his own house, and set men to beat him daily and torture him to extract the money from him. At last, he was obliged to sell again his houses and furnishings in the capital for a negligible sum, leading to the separation of Bahá'u'lláh from His brother, who went to live near the entrance of a Mosque, whilst Bahá'u'lláh rented a place to live near the Gate of Shimiran, near the theological college where Mulla Husayn would stay on his journey, carrying the message of the Báb to Tihran.

https://bahai-library.com/merrick_holy-days_birth_baha

Baha'u'llah may also have suffered (or enjoyed!) in the mountains of Sulaymaniyyih where he spent two years (?) with his Sufi Friends in the caves of Sar Gulu!

Please stop it Megaman. Don't try to compare Baha'u'llah with Imam Husayn.

[megaman]

Hi @Badi19, please do not diverge from the topic. If you would like to talk about Baha'u'llah or His sufferings you can create a thread or PM me and I would be more than happy to discuss.  

[Badi19]

1 hour ago, megaman said:

Hi @Badi19, please do not diverge from the topic. If you would like to talk about Baha'u'llah or His sufferings you can create a thread or PM me and I would be more than happy to discuss.  

I am not moving from the topic. I just want to conclude it. Baha'u'llah is not the return of Imam Husayn, not even symbolically. Because I have showed you that his so called "suffering" was not suffering at all. He was enjoying a luxurious life with the support of forces that were hostile to Iran. Moreover, some of his own followers, who later disassociated with him, wrote this:

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Disgusted with the crimes laid at the door of the Bahai hierarchy, some BÁBis renounced their BÁBi faith and composed the following distich:
“If Husayn Ali [i.e. Baha, his real name Husayn Ali is written as one word in Persian and not as two separate words] is the manifestation of Husayn Ali [i.e. the third Imam, and son of Ali Ibn Ali Talib; Baha claims to be the Imam Husayn returned; the Imam's name Husayn Ali is written in Persian as two separate words] then may god grant heavenly bless thousand times to the pure soul of Yazid [i.e. the second Caliph of dynasty of Ommiades, son of Mu'awiya, having instigated the murder of the Imam Ali's two sons, Hasan & Husayn, his name is cursed by Moslems; his name is synonymous with a wicked and execrable person]. Husayn [i.e. the Imam] was the wronged-one (Mazlum) and not the wrongdoer [Yazid].” P. 16, The Tanbih Naimin.

You can read more here : http://www.bayanic.com/notes/assas/as01.html

So, I again request you not to compare Baha'u'llah with Imam Husayn. OK?

[Rashīd al-Hanafī]

15 hours ago, megaman said:

Thus We appointed you a midmost nation

واسط also means "moderate," "best," "leading," et cetera. Translating it as "midmost" and associating that with temporality - as you seem to be - looks to me like ad hoc justification of a presupposed narrative. 

[notme]

Islam is for all people, for all time. You can't say "people of Islam" - that's like saying "humanity". 

[megaman]

4 hours ago, Rashīd al-Hanafī said:

واسط also means "moderate," "best," "leading," et cetera. Translating it as "midmost" and associating that with temporality - as you seem to be - looks to me like ad hoc justification of a presupposed narrative. 

Hi Rashid, I agree that some translations state it at just, moderate and fair but there are some that say midmost or middle.

http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=2&verse=143 

[megaman]

2 hours ago, notme said:

Islam is for all people, for all time. You can't say "people of Islam" - that's like saying "humanity". 

Hi @notme, I should have worded it better.

When I said Islam, I didn't mean "Submission to the Will of God", in which case I would agree with you is forever, but rather the people of Prophet Muhammad, the followers of Quran.

[Ashvazdanghe]

13 minutes ago, megaman said:

followers of Quran

There is two type followers of Quran & Ahlulbayt  (as) if you just follow one of them you will become astray or Quran &Sunnah 

[notme]

41 minutes ago, megaman said:

Hi @notme, I should have worded it better.

When I said Islam, I didn't mean "Submission to the Will of God", in which case I would agree with you is forever, but rather the people of Prophet Muhammad, the followers of Quran.

Muslims believe that "submission to the will of God" and "following the Quran and Ahlul Bayt" are synonymous. Therefore, my point remains and we will continue to respectfully disagree. 

[megaman]

2 hours ago, notme said:

Muslims believe that "submission to the will of God" and "following the Quran and Ahlul Bayt" are synonymous. Therefore, my point remains and we will continue to respectfully disagree. 

I agree with that, but only until a certain time, as it is stated that each nation has a fixed term. For example, followers of Moses were Muslims, "In submission" but only until the Proclamation of Jesus. Those who rejected, would not be considered Muslims anymore.  

I'm trying to make the same point here for those "following the Quran".

[notme]

Just now, megaman said:

I'm trying to make the same point here for those "following the Quran".

Ok thanks for clearly stating your views. But we believe the Quran is for all time, the final book. 

[megaman]

10 minutes ago, notme said:

Ok thanks for clearly stating your views. But we believe the Quran is for all time, the final book. 

Thank you for respecting my views. I found these in al-islam.org source is: Ithbat al-hudat, Vol. 7

Let me know if the source isn't reliable.

Quote

When the Qa'im emerges he will come with a new commission, a new book, a new conduct and a new judgement, which will be strenuous for the Arabs. His work is nothing but to fight, and no one [among the disbelievers] will be spared. He will not be afraid of any blame in the execution of his duty

When the Qa'im rises he will come with a new commission, just as the Prophet in the beginning of Islam called the people to a new commission

 

 

[Rashīd al-Hanafī]

5 hours ago, megaman said:

Hi Rashid, I agree that some translations state it at just, moderate and fair but there are some that say midmost or middle.

http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=2&verse=143

You haven't actually addressed my point; instead you've sidestepped it.

1 hour ago, megaman said:

I'm trying to make the same point here for those "following the Quran".

Muhammad ﷺ was the final prophet (recipient of revelation) of Allāh ﷻ, so the Qur'ān is the final revelation from Allāh ﷻ. The explicit, unequivocal āyah that states as much thereby precludes considering وسط in 2:143 having anything to do with sequential centrality. So any claimants to prophethood thereafter have been either mendacious or deluded, and their scriptures have been fabrication - on the Qur'ān's (i.e. Allāh's) authority.

Edited June 27, 2018 by Rashīd al-Hanafī

[megaman]

4 hours ago, Rashīd al-Hanafī said:

Muhammad ﷺ was the final prophet (recipient of revelation)

Dear Rashid, how did you come to the conclusion that Prophet means recipient of revelation? Aaron, brother of Moses was also a Prophet but not a Messenger so he did not receive a revelation. A Nabih is someone who brings news, prophecies and etc

[Ashvazdanghe]

2 hours ago, megaman said:

A Nabih is someone who brings news, prophecies and etc

Hi with your idea ;I can do all of this so I'm a Nabih , when people didn't have access to Internet ,they could do it & create new religion so I'm more capable than them , i' have access to more knowledge also I can print them immediately .

[AbdusSibtayn]

3 hours ago, megaman said:

Aaron, brother of Moses was also a Prophet but not a Messenger so he did not receive a revelation. A Nabih is someone who brings news, prophecies and etc

Harun (as) was a co-recipient of the wahi along with Musa(as). So he did receive revelations.

(Moses) said: "O my Lord! expand me my breast;ease my task for me;and remove the impediment from my speech,So they may understand what I say;and give me a Minister from my family,Aaron, my brother;add to my strength through him,and make him share my task...."(Qur'an 20:25-32)

And where do you think the Prophets(as) got that 'news,prophecies and etc' from, if not via revelation?  Via post, via email, via Whats App, via Facebook messenger, via Snap Chat, or via Telegram? This is the second time I've seen you post that crooked piece of junk.

Begone with your agenda. Nobody is buying your slush here.

Bad luck Haifa appointed you the 'missionary' for Shia Chat. 

[megaman]

Hi @AbdusSibtayn, only Rasools receive revelations, not Nabihs. 

They are guided by God but not thought revelation. For example, the Imams are divinely guided but only Prophet Muhammad received revelation because He is a Messenger of God.

[AbdusSibtayn]

7 minutes ago, megaman said:

Hi @AbdusSibtayn, only Rasools receive revelations, not Nabihs. 

They are guided by God but not thought revelation. For example, the Imams are divinely guided but only Prophet Muhammad received revelation because He is a Messenger of God.

Aha....! Then what's the difference between the anbiya(as) and the aimmah(as)? Both are divinely guided by ilham, both don't receive revelations(as per you), then why can't we call Imam Ali (as) a Prophet as well?

Both anbiya(as) and mursaleen(as) receive revelations, the only difference being that while the mursaleen(as) are given a new shariah, the anbiya(as) are upon the shariah of the previous, latest rasool(as) and not given a sharia of their own. 

Edited June 28, 2018 by AbdusSibtayn

[megaman]

4 minutes ago, AbdusSibtayn said:

Aha....! Then what's the difference between the anbiya(as) and the aimmah(as)? Both are divinely guided by ilham, both don't receive revelations(as per you), then why can't we call Imam Ali (as) a Prophet as well?

 

My understanding is that Prophets are chosen by God and Imams are appointed. For example, Prophet Muhammad appointed Ali as the first Imam and Moses asked God to bestow Prophethood upon Aaron, as we read in that Surah, to help with tasks. 

It's a very good question. Prophet Muhammad would have called Ali a Nabih but He said that He is the Seal of the Prophets and no prophets to come after Him.

Edited June 28, 2018 by megaman

[AbdusSibtayn]

1 minute ago, megaman said:

My understanding is that Prophets are chosen by God and Imams are appointed

Imams(as) are appointed by Allahسُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى via the previous Prophet(as). When Musa(as) appointed Harun(as) as his co-prophet, he had to make dua to Allah(as) and ask His permission; he did not appoint Harun(as) to his position just according to his whims and caprices. Similarly, Rasoolallah(sawa) appointed Imam Ali(as) his successor as per a definitive nass from Allahسُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى, not just as per his own whim.

[AbdusSibtayn]

7 minutes ago, megaman said:

It's a very good question. Prophet Muhammad would have called Ali a Nabih but He said that He is the Seal of the Prophets and no prophets to come after Him.

And does that still not ring any bell?

[Ashvazdanghe]

4 minutes ago, megaman said:

Prophet Muhammad would have called Ali a Nabih but He said that He is the Seal of the Prophets and no prophets to come after Him.

Its a very famous Hadith that Prophet (pbu) said to Imam Ali you are like Harun to Musa for me but you will not aprophet also all imams recive Ilham through angles but prophet could see them but Imams just hear their voice.

We read in Sahih Bukhari the Hadith as follows, the Prophet (s) saying to Ali (as):

‘Your position to me is like the position of Harun to Musa, except that there will be no prophet after me.’

So what was the relationship between Musa (as) and Harun (as) and Muhammad (s) and Ali (as). There must some similarity, it must carry some importance after all the Prophet (s) recounted this simile on many occasions.

It must have something to do with future of Islam (said many times) that is why the Prophet (s) said: ‘Your position to me is like the position of Harun to Musa, except that there will be no prophet after me’ – thus alluding to a relationship that continued beyond his (s) lifetime.

http://www.shiapen.com/comprehensive/hadith-manzila/analyzing-meaning.html

[megaman]

17 hours ago, AbdusSibtayn said:

Similarly, Rasoolallah(sawa) appointed Imam Ali(as) his successor as per a definitive nass from Allahسُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى, not just as per his own whim.

This makes sense since Prophet Muhammad was doing God's will.

I guess how I understand revelation is that it's direct communication with God. For example, the Quran is a revelation. But divine guidance is more like inspiration, at least how I understand it.

[megaman]

2 minutes ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

‘Your position to me is like the position of Harun to Musa, except that there will be no prophet after me.’

 

Thanks, that's the Hadith I was referring to.

[Badi19]

12 minutes ago, megaman said:

It's a very good question. Prophet Muhammad would have called Ali a Nabih but He said that He is the Seal of the Prophets and no prophets to come after Him. 

If Prophet Mohammed told that no prophets would come after him then who is Baha'u'llah?

[megaman]

2 minutes ago, Badi19 said:

If Prophet Mohammed told that no prophets would come after him then who is Baha'u'llah?

Hi @Badi19, I feel like you already know what I'm going to say. 

Short answer, He is a Manifestation of God. Bringing new teachings for this day and age. 

 

Side note for the friends who don't know what I mean by "Manifestation of God":

A person who perfectly reflects the attributes of God, like Mercy and Wisdom.

Some examples of Manifestations of God, from my understanding are: Muhammad, Jesus and Moses.

[Badi19]

2 minutes ago, megaman said:

Hi @Badi19, I feel like you already know what I'm going to say. 

Short answer, He is a Manifestation of God. Bringing new teachings for this day and age. 

 

Side note for the friends who don't know what I mean by "Manifestation of God":

A person who perfectly reflects the attributes of God, like Mercy and Wisdom.

Some examples of Manifestations of God, from my understanding are: Muhammad, Jesus and Moses.

Yes you are correct.

There are different levels of Erfan among Baha'is. Baha'is possessing higher level of Erfan still believe Baha'u'llah to be God. Specially Persian Baha'is. You know very well that the discussion will now move towards the "claims of Divinity" of Baha'u'llah. You know very well what writings I am going to share! Why are you wasting your time here. Baha'u'llah has stated this about Shias:

The Shi'is are fanatical, ignorant and worse and they have strayed far from the pure faith of Islam.

Quote

He (Baha'u'llah) calls into question the legitimacy of the doctrines of the vast majority of Muslims who do not follow the twelve Imams and who are called Sunnis. Hence, he depicts Islam as getting off to a bad start and then continuing to deviate from the intentions of the prophet Muhammad. Baha’u’llah denies that the twelfth Imam was a real person and affirms rather his symbolic existence in the minds of Shi’is. He calls Shi’is fanatical and ignorant and worse. So while they recognized the Imams, since their line came to an end, they have strayed far from the pure faith of Islam.

http://bahai-library.com/terry_bahaullah_reconciliation_religions

Regarding Imamate Shoghi Effendi (1st & Last(?) Baha'i Imam) says:

Quote

The Bab's descent from the Imam Husayn is no doubt a proof of the validity of the Imamate.

From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, July 30, 1941

Baha'ism is a blasphemy for Shias. You should appreciate the fact that you have been given free platform here to write whatever you want AND you know very well that if a "Covenant Breaker" or an "Enemy of Faith" would come to your forums and challenge your "Baha'i Covenant" you people ban him immediately! I have experienced this many times.

Imam Mahdi was supposed to bring peace to this world. He wasn't supposed to abrogate Islam and bring a new religion that got divided into as many as 15 sects in a period of 150 years!

[megaman]

2 minutes ago, Badi19 said:

You should appreciate the fact that you have been given free platform

Honestly, I'm grateful. People have been respectful here and I've enjoyed my time.

2 minutes ago, Badi19 said:

your forums and challenge your "Baha'i Covenant" you people ban him immediately!

I'm sorry that you had that experience. I haven't been to Baha'i forums so I wouldn't know.

If you would like to go deeper into certain topics, I suggest that you PM me or create a new thread in "research into other sects" and I will gladly respond. 

I just don't want turn this thread into something it's not.

Thank you. 

[Badi19]

19 minutes ago, megaman said:

Honestly, I'm grateful. People have been respectful here and I've enjoyed my time.

I'm sorry that you had that experience. I haven't been to Baha'i forums so I wouldn't know.

If you would like to go deeper into certain topics, I suggest that you PM me or create a new thread in "research into other sects" and I will gladly respond. 

I just don't want turn this thread into something it's not.

Thank you. 

I am a former Baha'i and I am sure it is not a "World Religion!!!!" and it is not of God. Sorry to say, the followers of Baha'i Faith are the most brainwashed I have ever come across. Even if you present them proofs (logical & textual) they won't believe. Their "Administration" has closed their minds by demanding "unquestionable obedience (faithfulness)" to the so called "Baha'i Covenant". But after the advent of the Internet, things have gone worst for the Baha'is. They have failed to attract new members (followers) to their "religion". People join for a short time then leave it. Some good Baha'i scholars, such as Juan Cole, Denis MacEoin, Frederick Glaysher have left the faith after a deep study. Try to read the preface of "the Messiah of Shiraz" by Denis MacEoin, he was a Baha'i when he was writing that book, but he left the "Faith" after completion of his research. I would advice anyone who is interested in learning more about Babi-Baha'i history to read this book, available freely here: https://bab1844.blogspot.com

Moreover, every thread that you will start will somehow revolve around these subjects. All the best to you.