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Knowledge and Faith (Islam vs Christianity)

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Some people will struggle with the concept of original sin.  Because, in a very literal interpretation of the OT, someone might say "well, there was a talking snake, and this talking snake told a woman who was made out of a rib bone, to eat an apple, and then later...some guy killed hundreds of people with a jaw bone (but not before a woman cut his hair), and the whole planet flooded after creation 6000 years ago, and there was a man who lived inside a whales stomach acid for 3 days, and there were fire breathing beasts and leviathans..."

This isn't what scripture is about. And if your sit around trying to rationalize it, either scientifically or in any literal fashion, you aren't going to get far.

The book of Job is about much more than what a literal interpretation would lead someone to believe. Same with the book of Judges and genesis and exodus. These books are about so much more than...some sort of pre-kindergarden literalist interpretation where God just started killing people over an apple.

 

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19 minutes ago, iCambrian said:

than...some sort of pre-kindergarden literalist interpretation where God just started killing people over an apple.

This is the reason of killing Christians God by Niche in “ thus spoke Zarathustra “

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 either scientifically or in any literal fashion, you aren't going to get far.

It does not necessary need to be according to any scientific laws. It is true that some verses/events are meant to understand only in allegory sense and others literally, but there can also be verses/events that include both of them at same time.

Edited by Abu Nur

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2 hours ago, iraqi_shia said:

So you do not believe that God sent his "only son" to be sacrificed for the sins of humanity?

Jews sacrificed animals to their God, an heritage from their pagan history. A person could take the punishment instead of another. Today this all seem very unlogical, but ethics change. Jesus took the punishments for our sins, not for apples, a symbol that burn sacrifices to God no longer were necessary. Had it been today, sacrifying Jesus for sins comitted by others, had not made sense to us. 

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2 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

In Christians story Jews Rabbis asked it from Pilates but he doesn’t take this responsibility by washing his hands but put his crew in order of Jews rabbis.

Pilate was a ruthless man that would not allow the Jews to determine. I know the Gospel writers believe so, but who told them that Pilate would not take the responsability? Someone of course, but I do not believe this is correct.

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6 hours ago, andres said:

Jews sacrificed animals to their God, an heritage from their pagan history. A person could take the punishment instead of another. Today this all seem very unlogical, but ethics change. Jesus took the punishments for our sins, not for apples, a symbol that burn sacrifices to God no longer were necessary. Had it been today, sacrifying Jesus for sins comitted by others, had not made sense to us. 

This is extremely problematic. 

To say a person can take another persons punishment is irrational and questions God's justice.

As for the "sacrifices", they were a penance for sin. This concept is still applied. Eg fines, blood money etc .We see this concept thoroughly in the old testament, and even in the new testament

Hebrews 10:3 : But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.

No one wants to sin if they are fined a prize goat each time. Its a like a speeding ticket, however God did not want people to avoid sin because of the penalty, He wants them to avoid sin because of the nature of sin. This is exemplified by Prophet Jesus AS establishing many moral codes that are in contrast to the Old Testament's bias for laws. 

However, as the Bible makes clear, blood sacrifices do not remove sin. 

Hebrews 10-4 For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

The sins are not removed by these "sacrifices", they are simply a way to encourage the community to avoid certain behaviors. The only way to remove sin is repentance from God. 

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35 minutes ago, andres said:

Christianity is not the same religion. 

All religions are same as each other ,people are not same as each other if we see difference between them is because some people made this difference .

Top 5 biggest myths about religion (warning contains hemosexuality videos) 

 

Edited by Ashvazdanghe

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11 minutes ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

All religions are same as each other ,people are not same as each other if we see difference between them is because some people made this difference .

Judaism was the first monotheistic religion in the Middle east, and Islam and Christianity builds on that. Of course, Judaism came first of the three. Before Judaism you have got very many different religions. 

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2 minutes ago, andres said:

Judaism was the first monotheistic religion in the Middle east,

Zoroastrianism is an older monotheistic religion than Judaism that has high influence on Judaism &Christianity & partly Islam these thre

e are monotheistic Ibrahimic religions

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1 hour ago, andres said:

Hi iraqi_shia

I agree blood sacrifice cannot remove sin. As you point out the New Testament agrees here, whereas the Old Testament prescribes animal sacrifices. Judaism and Christianity is not the same religion. 

I wonder, do Jews sacrifice animals in modern times?

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1 hour ago, andres said:

Hi iraqi_shia

I agree blood sacrifice cannot remove sin. As you point out the New Testament agrees here, whereas the Old Testament prescribes animal sacrifices. Judaism and Christianity is not the same religion. 

Example at Leviticus 5.

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I think the ants in that story is referring to the villagers, and they were scared of Soleiman. 

I'm not saying that it's not possible for Soleiman to be speaking to actual ants. God has power over all things and can grant power to anyone, but, the villager interpretation makes more sense to me.

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8 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Zoroastrianism is an older monotheistic religion than Judaism that has high influence on Judaism &Christianity & partly Islam these thre

e are monotheistic Ibrahimic religions

Zoroastrianism is a monolatristic religion. A religion that worship one God, but recognises many Gods. Judaism evolved from paganism through monolatry into monotheism. 

 

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Just now, andres said:

Zoroastrianism is a monolatristic religion. A religion that worship one God, but recognises many Gods. Judaism evolved from paganism through monolatry into monotheism. 

 

Hi , jew were settling in Iran for centuries even they get idea of definition of evil from Zoroastrianism.

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7 hours ago, iCambrian said:

I wonder, do Jews sacrifice animals in modern times?

No. Jews sacrified animals on different hilltops before God commanded them only to sacrifice in the temple in Jerusalem. When the temple was destroyed in 70AD, Jews no longer could do this and this custom stopped

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On 7/16/2018 at 5:46 AM, megaman said:

I think the ants in that story is referring to the villagers, and they were scared of Soleiman. 

I'm not saying that it's not possible for Soleiman to be speaking to actual ants. God has power over all things and can grant power to anyone, but, the villager interpretation makes more sense to me.

Zoo animals knew who Abdul Baha was!?

When ‘Abdu’l-Bahá was first in Chicago it, was Spring and He was eager to go to the zoo. He had never seen a large city zoo, and He was very merry over the prospect. Then it was explained to Him that, this being the Spring of the year, most of the animal-mothers would be bearing litters and, at the first approach of a stranger, they‘d rush their babies into safe hiding. This did not perturb ‘Abdu’l-Bahá at all. He wanted to go anyhow. So a group of five or six of the Friends took Him. He motioned to them to stay a little behind and He went forward all alone. And, as He approached each cage, the small animal-mother brought out all her babies to show Him, then hurried them back to safety and protection from the following Friends.

(Reginald Grant Barrow, Mother’s Stories: Stories of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá and Early Believers told by Muriel Ives Barrow Newhall to her son, p. 38-39)

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On 7/15/2018 at 6:19 AM, iraqi_shia said:

You seemed more concerned about your doubt that God could not make a snake speak, than the fact that the God your describing is so touchy about his fruit that he killed his son over an apple. 

Come on guys. This is just sad. I can't believe people are trying to justify the idea that ants speak. As if ants we're aware of Who Solomon was or what soldiers were or any of the nouns in the sentence below.

 

""O ants, enter your dwellings that you not be crushed by Solomon and his soldiers while they perceive not"

 

 

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6 hours ago, iCambrian said:

Come on guys. This is just sad. I can't believe people are trying to justify the idea that ants speak. As if ants we're aware of Who Solomon was or what soldiers were or any of the nouns in the sentence below.

 

""O ants, enter your dwellings that you not be crushed by Solomon and his soldiers while they perceive not"

 

 

Hi ,in bible talked about Speking Animal s such as Donkey so how speaking of Ants in Quran is Strange & unacceptable ,christians believe to speaking of Animals than muslims

The Angel and Balaam's Donkey
27When the donkey saw the Angel of the LORD, she lay down under Balaam, and he became furious and beat her with his staff. 28Then the LORD opened the donkey’s mouth, and she saidto Balaam, “What have I done to you that you have beaten me these three times?” 29Balaam answered the donkey, “You have made a fool of me! If I had a sword in my hand, I would kill you right now!”…

220px-Gustav_Jaeger_Bileam_Engel.jpg

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ya`fūr

https://biblehub.com/numbers/22-28.htm

The Snake in the Garden

The narrative found in Genesis 3 about a talking snake and the fall of humankind is both literal and archetypical. From a literal perspective, we see how sin entered into humanity through the first parents. In regard to history, while some have tried to argue that Adam and Eve were not literal people, the fact that both Jesus and Paul refer to them as such, and that Adam appears in literal genealogies makes it difficult to make the case that they are fictional if one is to exegete Scripture with any kind of discipline.

Balaam’s Donkey

The Garden snake in Genesis 3 isn’t the only animal that speaks in Scripture.

The book of Numbers chronicles the account of a soothsayer named Balaam son of Beor who is called upon by the Moab king Balak to curse the nation Israel in an attempt to stop the progress Israel was making in their conquest of the land that God had promised them. As a gun for hire, Balaam is anything but an honest guy, and God’s anger against him is shown in chapter 22 where God causes Balaam’s donkey to actually speak and rebuke him.

http://blogs.christianpost.com/confident-christian/talking-snakes-donkeys-and-believing-the-bible-11993/

http://askjohnmackay.com/talking-animals-how-could-donkeys-or-snakes-speak-to-people-as-the-bible-records/

نتیجه تصویری برای ‪talking of Prophets with animals+jesus‬‏

2 Corinthians 11:3 But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ.

https://www.cfcindia.com/books/god-speaks-through-animals

 In a manner of speaking, the “stones” of the Temple, as they were “thrown down” by the Romans, did testify of Heaven’s judgment upon a people that crucified their Messiah (cf. Mt. 24:2).

https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/783-triumphal-entry-of-jesus-into-jerusalem-the

Among the miracles of Prophet Muhammad is the story about the wolf that spoke and testified that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah. Al-Imam Ahmad narrated it from the route of Abu Sa^id Al-Khudriyy with a trustworthy chain of narration.

https://www.darulfatwa.org.au/en/the-miracle-of-the-speaking-wolf/

The incident of wolf talking with Holy Prophet (S.A.W.S)

Imam Ali Naqi (A.S) said:

The Messenger of Allah (S.A.W.S) was once sitting when a shepherd came up trembling due to what he had observed. Looking at that shepherd from a distance the Prophet said to the companions: The story of this man is indeed very strange. 

When he approached and came close, the Prophet told him: Tell us, why are you shaking so much? That man replied: It is because of a very wonderful and awful happening. I was in the midst of my goats, when suddenly a wolf arrived and took away one of my animals. I at once hit that animal with a stone from a sling and got the lamb released. Then that wolf came from another side and took off another lamb, which also I got from his clutches as before. This happened four times. Finally that wolf came up with its female and was about to attack my lambs. Again I intended to stone it but lo, it sat upright and spoke up: Are you not ashamed of depriving me of my food? Why do you not allow me to take what Almighty has created for my survival? Do I not need sustenance? ......

....Then the wolf replied: O servant of Allah! Be thankful to Almighty Allah, Who included you in those who take lesson from events showing Signs of Allah and who obey His commands. But still more hard-hearted is one who disregards the rights of Ali (A.S), the brother of Muhammad (S.A.W.S) despite observing his greatness and in spite of the bounties.......

The shepherd then asked the wolf: Will it ever so happen against Ali (A.S)? The wolf replied: Yes. Rather worse than that. The evildoers will, shortly, kill him and his innocent offspring and arrest their womenfolk. Despite these evil-doings they will claim to be Muslims. This is stranger than all others and hence Almighty Allah has decided that we, the wolves, will in Hell, tear them into pieces and this torment and chastisement of these evildoers will give us real pleasure. Their wailings will make us joyful. ......

...

The Holy Prophet (S.A.W.S) then said: All of you now encircle Ali (A.S). The companions encircled Ali (A.S). So when they hid Ali behind them, the Holy Prophet (S.A.W.S), addressing the wolves said: Just as you pointed to me and gave my sign to the people, give the sign of Ali (A.S) also so that people may know that what you said in his praise is true. 

Hearing this, the wolves came forward. They began to look closely at the faces and feet of all present there. They left all and finally when they reached Ali (A.S) they rubbed their cheeks on ground and rolling and tossing at his feet spoke up: Peace be on you, O Mine of magnanimity, peak of intelligence, Scholar of the earlier scrolls, legatee of Muhammad Mustafa (S.A.W.S), one whose friends have been made fortunate by Almighty Allah and whose foes have been declared as doomed forever by Almighty Lord. Allah has made you the chief of the progeny of Muhammad (S.A.W.S) and of the holy family members.

http://www.sibtayn.com/en/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=7116:the-incident-of-wolf-talking-with-holy-prophet-s-a-w-s&catid=606&Itemid=702

 

 

APPERANCE OF THE GRAVE OF AMEERUL MOMENEEN (A) DURING THE TIME OF HAROON

Sayyid ‘Abd al-Karim ibn Tawus has reported the following story on the authority of Muhammad ibn ‘Ali al-Shaybani:

I was a child when, one day in the year 260 (AH), my father, uncle, and I went out secretly directing to al-Ghari for visiting the tomb of Amir al-Mu’minin (‘a). At that time, the tomb was not constructed but surrounded by black stones. At the time that we were reciting Qur’an, offering prayers, and reciting the Ziyarah form, a lion came in the direction of us. When he approached us, we moved back. The lion came to the tomb and passed its wounded foreleg over it. Fear vanished when we were told about this scene; therefore, we all approached to see the lion, which kept on doing so for a while and then left. We then returned to the tomb......

 

NEWS OF SAFI THE SERVANT OF IMAM AL HADI (A) AND HIS JOURNEY TO MASHHAD

“Safi, you may take with you another ring whose stone is made of turquoise. On your way, and specifically between Nayshabur and Tus, a lion will prevent your caravan from proceeding. You may then face the lion, show it the ring, and say, ‘My master orders you to step aside.’” The Imam (‘a) then added, “The turquoise ring must carry the following inscription on one side,....

http://alhassanain.org/english/?com=book&id=928#

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7 hours ago, iCambrian said:

Come on guys. This is just sad. I can't believe people are trying to justify the idea that ants speak. As if ants we're aware of Who Solomon was or what soldiers were or any of the nouns in the sentence below.

 

""O ants, enter your dwellings that you not be crushed by Solomon and his soldiers while they perceive not"

 

 

Hi ,in bible talked about Speking Animal s such as Donkey so how speaking of Ants in Quran is Strange & unacceptable ,christians believe to speaking of Animals than muslims

The Angel and Balaam's Donkey
27When the donkey saw the Angel of the LORD, she lay down under Balaam, and he became furious and beat her with his staff. 28Then the LORD opened the donkey’s mouth, and she saidto Balaam, “What have I done to you that you have beaten me these three times?” 29Balaam answered the donkey, “You have made a fool of me! If I had a sword in my hand, I would kill you right now!”…

220px-Gustav_Jaeger_Bileam_Engel.jpg

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ya`fūr

https://biblehub.com/numbers/22-28.htm

The Snake in the Garden

The narrative found in Genesis 3 about a talking snake and the fall of humankind is both literal and archetypical. From a literal perspective, we see how sin entered into humanity through the first parents. In regard to history, while some have tried to argue that Adam and Eve were not literal people, the fact that both Jesus and Paul refer to them as such, and that Adam appears in literal genealogies makes it difficult to make the case that they are fictional if one is to exegete Scripture with any kind of discipline.

Balaam’s Donkey

The Garden snake in Genesis 3 isn’t the only animal that speaks in Scripture.

The book of Numbers chronicles the account of a soothsayer named Balaam son of Beor who is called upon by the Moab king Balak to curse the nation Israel in an attempt to stop the progress Israel was making in their conquest of the land that God had promised them. As a gun for hire, Balaam is anything but an honest guy, and God’s anger against him is shown in chapter 22 where God causes Balaam’s donkey to actually speak and rebuke him.

http://blogs.christianpost.com/confident-christian/talking-snakes-donkeys-and-believing-the-bible-11993/

http://askjohnmackay.com/talking-animals-how-could-donkeys-or-snakes-speak-to-people-as-the-bible-records/

�ت�ج� تص��ر� برا� �talking of Prophets with animals+jesus��

2 Corinthians 11:3 But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ.

https://www.cfcindia.com/books/god-speaks-through-animals

 In a manner of speaking, the “stones” of the Temple, as they were “thrown down” by the Romans, did testify of Heaven’s judgment upon a people that crucified their Messiah (cf. Mt. 24:2).

https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/783-triumphal-entry-of-jesus-into-jerusalem-the

Among the miracles of Prophet Muhammad is the story about the wolf that spoke and testified that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah. Al-Imam Ahmad narrated it from the route of Abu Sa^id Al-Khudriyy with a trustworthy chain of narration.

https://www.darulfatwa.org.au/en/the-miracle-of-the-speaking-wolf/

The incident of wolf talking with Holy Prophet (S.A.W.S)

Imam Ali Naqi (A.S) said:

The Messenger of Allah (S.A.W.S) was once sitting when a shepherd came up trembling due to what he had observed. Looking at that shepherd from a distance the Prophet said to the companions: The story of this man is indeed very strange. 

When he approached and came close, the Prophet told him: Tell us, why are you shaking so much? That man replied: It is because of a very wonderful and awful happening. I was in the midst of my goats, when suddenly a wolf arrived and took away one of my animals. I at once hit that animal with a stone from a sling and got the lamb released. Then that wolf came from another side and took off another lamb, which also I got from his clutches as before. This happened four times. Finally that wolf came up with its female and was about to attack my lambs. Again I intended to stone it but lo, it sat upright and spoke up: Are you not ashamed of depriving me of my food? Why do you not allow me to take what Almighty has created for my survival? Do I not need sustenance? ......

....Then the wolf replied: O servant of Allah! Be thankful to Almighty Allah, Who included you in those who take lesson from events showing Signs of Allah and who obey His commands. But still more hard-hearted is one who disregards the rights of Ali (A.S), the brother of Muhammad (S.A.W.S) despite observing his greatness and in spite of the bounties.......

The shepherd then asked the wolf: Will it ever so happen against Ali (A.S)? The wolf replied: Yes. Rather worse than that. The evildoers will, shortly, kill him and his innocent offspring and arrest their womenfolk. Despite these evil-doings they will claim to be Muslims. This is stranger than all others and hence Almighty Allah has decided that we, the wolves, will in Hell, tear them into pieces and this torment and chastisement of these evildoers will give us real pleasure. Their wailings will make us joyful. ......

...

The Holy Prophet (S.A.W.S) then said: All of you now encircle Ali (A.S). The companions encircled Ali (A.S). So when they hid Ali behind them, the Holy Prophet (S.A.W.S), addressing the wolves said: Just as you pointed to me and gave my sign to the people, give the sign of Ali (A.S) also so that people may know that what you said in his praise is true. 

Hearing this, the wolves came forward. They began to look closely at the faces and feet of all present there. They left all and finally when they reached Ali (A.S) they rubbed their cheeks on ground and rolling and tossing at his feet spoke up: Peace be on you, O Mine of magnanimity, peak of intelligence, Scholar of the earlier scrolls, legatee of Muhammad Mustafa (S.A.W.S), one whose friends have been made fortunate by Almighty Allah and whose foes have been declared as doomed forever by Almighty Lord. Allah has made you the chief of the progeny of Muhammad (S.A.W.S) and of the holy family members.

http://www.sibtayn.com/en/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=7116:the-incident-of-wolf-talking-with-holy-prophet-s-a-w-s&catid=606&Itemid=702

 

 

APPERANCE OF THE GRAVE OF AMEERUL MOMENEEN (A) DURING THE TIME OF HAROON

Sayyid ‘Abd al-Karim ibn Tawus has reported the following story on the authority of Muhammad ibn ‘Ali al-Shaybani:

I was a child when, one day in the year 260 (AH), my father, uncle, and I went out secretly directing to al-Ghari for visiting the tomb of Amir al-Mu’minin (‘a). At that time, the tomb was not constructed but surrounded by black stones. At the time that we were reciting Qur’an, offering prayers, and reciting the Ziyarah form, a lion came in the direction of us. When he approached us, we moved back. The lion came to the tomb and passed its wounded foreleg over it. Fear vanished when we were told about this scene; therefore, we all approached to see the lion, which kept on doing so for a while and then left. We then returned to the tomb......

 

NEWS OF SAFI THE SERVANT OF IMAM AL HADI (A) AND HIS JOURNEY TO MASHHAD

“Safi, you may take with you another ring whose stone is made of turquoise. On your way, and specifically between Nayshabur and Tus, a lion will prevent your caravan from proceeding. You may then face the lion, show it the ring, and say, ‘My master orders you to step aside.’” The Imam (‘a) then added, “The turquoise ring must carry the following inscription on one side,....

http://alhassanain.org/english/?com=book&id=928#

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On 7/16/2018 at 10:59 AM, andres said:

Jews no longer could do this and this custom stopped

Members of the Samaritan sect seal an oven after filling it with large sheepso why they still disobey God

A

https://www.haaretz.com/jewish/.premium-why-jews-stopped-sacrificing-lambs-for-passover-1.5440120

https://www.shutterstock.com/editorial/search/zion?search_source=base_search_form&sort=date&cat=&page=eyJ2IjoxLCJzIjoxMTgwfQ%3D%3D&date_range=

https://www.shutterstock.com/editorial/image-editorial/israel-jewish-animal-sacrifice-may-2013-7970859eIsrael Jewish Animal Sacrifice - May 2013

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30 minutes ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

You should read the discussion (post number 4) so that you can see what I think about talking animals.

Edited by iCambrian

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On 7/1/2018 at 11:20 PM, iCambrian said:

 This story of Adam and Eve, for starters has a talking snake. It isnt meant to be taken as a literal, straight forward story where every word means precisely what it says in a simplistic manner. And with that, I would say that Allama Mutahari makes the mistake of taking on a simplistic interpretation of the story, much like young earth creationists do when they assume that the planet is 6000 years old based on genealogies. 

you are first person that say it is literal , but we discus it about general opinions of Christians that this a physical matter ,for eample end time & conspiracy theory fans believe to Lizard men & christain groups use snake in their praying to prove that Satan in form of Snake can't hurt them

Ù�تÛ�جÙ� تصÙ�Û�رÛ� براÛ� â�ªpaying with snake+christianâ�¬â��   

 

Edited by Ashvazdanghe

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Me: "it isn't meant to be taken as a literal straight forward story"

Response "you are the first person to say it is literal"

How about, instead of assuming what I believe, why not just take my word for it?

Regarding what other Christian's believe, you will find a wide array of beliefs across the world and through time. Like I said before, there are Christian's who believe the planet is 6000 years old. Which is why I am stating that literal interpretations are flawed.

Edited by iCambrian

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4 hours ago, iCambrian said:

Which is why I am stating that literal interpretations are flawed.

When Quran speaks about a matter ,it talks about it from different aspects not just on or two aspects  , when it talks about speaking ants the surface of it is speaking animal matter ,for example just say it was because just  Solomon was a prophet & nothing more so they easily accept Israelits that prophets could commit sin as in sunni sources prophet Mohammad (pbu) was a person that does mistakes  but we Shias say it was because he had authority over everything not just humans that proofs after prophet Mohammad (pbu) Imams (as) have this authority that recorded by both shia & Sunnis but Sunnis refrain from them in link about talking of prophet Muhammad (pbu) in sunni  link imam Ali (as) position completely neglected that prophet (pbu) was using this miracle to prove his prophethood & successorship ( Imamate ) of Imam Ali(as) after himself 

Edited by Ashvazdanghe

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8 hours ago, iCambrian said:

Response "you are the first person to say it is literal"

Like some other things, the story of Adam and Eve differs in the Christian and Islamic traditions.

If my information is correct, the snake, real or figurative, does not feature in Islamic traditions. 

Also, the original sin, which was actually an opinion put forward by the Church and has somehow been incorporated into belief, does not feature in Islam.

If I sin, it is because of the weakness of my character or lack of sufficient guidance or both.

Poor Adam has nothing to do with it and is by no means responsible.

This Christian tradition of the original sin is, of course, an opinion that has been framed into religious belief and do correct me if I am wrong, but as far as I am aware, it does not come directly from the Bible.  

8 hours ago, iCambrian said:

How about, instead of assuming what I believe, why not just take my word for it?

That would amount to denying our own traditions.

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5 hours ago, LizaGrey said:

it is inappropriate to compare these two religions.

We belive that they are one religion but Islam corrects all mistakes that happend for previous ones 

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On 8/5/2018 at 3:19 PM, Ashvazdanghe said:

We belive that they are one religion but Islam corrects all mistakes that happend for previous ones 

Corrects mistakes in doctrines mostly, and fills in blanks. I can't think of a place in the Quran where it says there was a mistake made that needed to be corrected. The assumption that events not mentioned in the Quran didn't happen is unlikely due to the fact the Quran only touches lightly on all Prophets and events prior. In most cases is there is only enough to confirm past scripture existed. Absence can't mean it didn't happen or the Quran would be much larger than the Bible and much more detailed.

The stories of Adam and Eve are similar enough to say one came from the other. In following the story the "shame" they felt was from being naked. Notice being caught naked is still shameful.

The question is, what were they before they were naked? 

I believe the "original sin" of disobedience was forgiven, but that which made them naked, (an impure fruit), started the cycle of humanity as we know it. Nobody has records of Eve giving birth before the fall, so rejecting the record stating this was the start of birthing pains would be baseless. If the Quran does not mention the event, maybe it is to be read as is.

 

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5 hours ago, Son of Placid said:

I believe the "original sin" of disobedience was forgiven, but that which made them naked, (an impure fruit), started the cycle of humanity as we know it. Nobody has records of Eve giving birth before the fall, so rejecting the record stating this was the start of birthing pains would be baseless. If the Quran does not mention the event, maybe it is to be read as is.

 

the problem of other religions is that they want to interrupt everything physically not spiritually ,& between muslims only shia muslims interrupt events spiritually & mentally but the rest insisting on physical interruption.  

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7 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

the problem of other religions is that they want to interrupt everything physically not spiritually ,& between muslims only shia muslims interrupt events spiritually & mentally but the rest insisting on physical interruption.  

I'm glad Shia are able to see more than physical. Spirituality is a big part of events mentioned in the Bible, also the Quran. The events require both spiritual and physical actions in order to be an event. Ignore the spiritual and you will never fully grasp the true meaning. Of course our knowledge of the spiritual is somewhat limited. In the OT angels were quite visible, mentioned often as guardians of the temples. Today Christians tend to sideline the spiritual as if it's all in the past. Both good and bad are still very active.  

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On 6/21/2018 at 11:43 AM, ali_fatheroforphans said:

Salam,

Just ponder over this statement of Allama Mutahari, as he tries to describe the relationship between knowledge and faith according to Christianity.

We have studied the relation between man's humanity and his animality, in other words, the relation between man's cultural and spiritual life and his material life. It is now clear that man's humanity has an independent existence and is not a mere reflection of his animal life.

It is also clear that knowledge and faith are the two basic parts of the humanity of man. Now let us see what mutual relation these two facets of humanity have or can have.

Unfortunately certain parts of the Old Testament have in the Christian world created an idea of contradiction between knowledge and faith. This idea which has cost dearly to knowledge and faith both has its root in the Book of Genesis of the Old Testament.

Narrating the story of Adam and the Forbidden Tree, the Book of Genesis, Chapter II, verses 16 and 17 says:

"And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die".

In the Chapter III, verses 1 - 7 it says:

"Now the serpent was more subtile than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:

But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely for God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons".

In the verse 22 - 23 of the same chapter it says:

"And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: "

According to this conception of man, God, knowledge and disobedience, God wants that man should not be aware of good and evil. The Forbidden Tree is the tree of knowledge. Man attains knowledge only if he rebels against God's command (disobeys the teachings of religion and the Prophets), but for that very reason he is driven out of God's Heaven.

On the basis of this conception all evil insinuations are those of knowledge, and reason is the insinuating Devil.

In contrast, we learn from the Holy Qur’an that Allah taught all names (realities) to Adam and then ordered the angels to prostrate themselves before him. The Devil was condemned because he refused to prostrate himself before the vicegerent of Allah, who was aware of the realities. The Prophetic traditions have told us that the Forbidden Tree was that of avarice, greed and such like things, that is the things related to the animality of Adam, not to his humanity. The insinuating Devil always insinuates what is against reason and what answers the base desires. It is concupiscence and not reason that represents the Devil within man. Contrary to all this what we find in the Book of Genesis is really very amazing.

Salamun Alaykum,

All this demonstrates the Mutahhari’s ignorance or profound lack of understanding regarding the Christian tradition!  

Don’t get me wrong, he was a profoundly wise and intelligent man and he was very knowledgeable with respect to Islamic Philosophy or other Islamic Disciplines, but this passage of his shows he doesn’t understand those biblical verses he is commenting on.  

The tree of knowledge between good and evil is a clear symbolism of the relativity of good and evil (or of any opposition such as birth and death, night and day, up and down, here’s and there etc).  The creation is relative because it is created of opposites.  It is only through opposition that the Absolute Good (which is beyond relativity) is manifested.  Knowledge of relativity is endless and infinite and consequently can have a dispersive and exteriorizing effect on the soul (hence the Fall).  

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On 8/4/2018 at 11:19 PM, baqar said:

It is very relevant to the subject matter of the thread. 

Me: "it isn't meant to be taken as a literal straight forward story"

Ashvazdanghe "you are the first person to say it is literal"

Me: "How about, instead of assuming what I believe, why not just take my word for it?"

Baqar: "That would amount to denying our own traditions."
 

Me: "You don't have to deny your traditions to accept my word regarding my own beliefs.

The rest of the above is irrelevant."

Baqar: "It is very relevant to the subject matter of the thread. "

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

These are just the worst responses ever. I state that, in my opinion, the stories are not to be taken literally. Then someone comes along and suggests that I am saying that the stories are literal or are to be taken literally. Then I tell him that, rather than saying what I believe, he should just take my word for it (they are my beliefs after all), and Baqar comes along and says something about such an idea amounting to denial of his or ashvazdange's own traditions.

None of the above responses to me, make any sense at all.

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On 7/15/2018 at 4:32 AM, andres said:

I am amazed to learn that Muslims believe all creatures can form sentences like humans can. 

Nobody said that thusfar, at all. I just read the thread and was hit by a stroke of insight I'd like to share here based on my own observation of nature and ants (which we have a lot of in Florida). I'm going to try and post it as a rhetorical question so as to sound neither smug nor foolish:

We have observed that animals communicate with one another, I saw it this morning when two bull ants crossed paths, rubbed their antennae together, and then proceeded in different directions from the path they were previously on. 

What if these animals were not speaking audibly, but that their communication with one another as we can observe, inspired the thoughts of the observer to not necessarily imagine, but understand that animals can communicate and thus, made the observer think for a moment about the God that designed them and made their communication possible, thus leading them to an inspired thought from God about how He has made animals capable of "speech" and then relayed the story in a manner that the people of that time and era in human history would be able to understand? 

Ex: (I see two ants rubbing antennae and changing paths/directions, then I reflect on what I have seen and by doing so, come to understand a higher truth about how God has ordered the universe. But to share this with other people who may not have observed the same thing and probably won't be able to comprehend, I use it as an illustration and point out that God quite literally "made them to speak" in service of presenting a larger idea about the God that I as a human am completely and utterly hopeless of actually even beginning to comprehend)

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