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In the Name of God بسم الله

Detention of undocumented migrant children

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1 hour ago, Laayla said:

Bismehe Ta3ala,

Assalam Alikum 

One day Americans will want to leave America. I wonder who will take them in.

Hmmmmm

All empires fall.

M3 Salamah, Fe Amin Allah 

President Buchanan wanted to invade Mexico because he saw this kind of threat developing way back then.

Americans are free to leave now. This ain't no commie country --yet.

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It seems there is going to be a general increase in the influx of migrants across the Mexican-US border; not sure what a wall is supposed to do..  It would be better to put money into services to supp

This is 100%. How can we cry for Hussein (as) and justify oppression during our own time? It's hypocrisy. 

The best way to understand people who are different from you is to get to know them.  If this isn't possible, try to imagine yourself in their shoes. Empathy is the most important thing. Wit

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51 minutes ago, hasanhh said:

Yesterday at the store were two women illegal entries

Do you know these women well enough that you asked their residency status, or are you making an assumption based on their language or ethnicity? 

You do know that the majority of Hispanic people in the United States are here legally, right? I knew many Hispanic Americans in the army and while I was at University. One of the best engineers I ever met was a Hispanic woman. 

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On 6/21/2018 at 1:55 AM, hasanhh said:

You two cannot even offer any suggestion about what these de facto cannot-contributes are going to do but live-off US.

Here is a solution, leave them as is.  Because any children born to them while on America, are American citizens as per jus soli. Then take all the troops abroad, bring them all home and declare war and hunt down MS-13, Tango Blast, Los Zetas and destroy them with our military. I also think the United States should  keep the immigrants as we pursue weeding out the violent cartels and gangs that come here, strip citizenships from the members captured  or already in prison and give it to the asylees and illegals with children who already have American citizenship.  

Quote

"All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside."

^ This includes the children of  illegal immigrants, which at least 4.5 million people have benefited from jus soli

On 6/20/2018 at 8:57 PM, ShiaMan14 said:

Doesn't Limbaugh also say that Obama is not an American citizen? 

Yes, he does. I used to listen to him quite a bit about how liberals are propagandists  and  the Obama administration being a "regime", before  realizing that he was  also a propagandist and  more or less, the same thing he was preaching against.  I told my father that if Rush wanted to see a regime,  he should  go to Syria.

On 6/21/2018 at 1:55 AM, hasanhh said:

Besides "l am" this country

Correction, you are only one opinion in a sea of 325.7 million other opinions.

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1 hour ago, Laayla said:

Bismehe Ta3ala,

Assalam Alikum 

One day Americans will want to leave America. I wonder who will take them in.

Hmmmmm

All empires fall.

M3 Salamah, Fe Amin Allah 

I am planning to leave, have been since Trump came to power.^

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@hasanhh Why don't you make separate quotations, like below...

3 hours ago, hasanhh said:

Second line first: The "spacious" Earth as revealed in Ayats 4:997, 29:56 and 39:10 are for believers. Like at the Hagira, 1439 Lunar Years ago.

I checked these verses (except the first, I think that's a typo), and they are simply reminding believers the Earth is spacious. Are you saying only believers can migrate? Don't know how you get that interpretation. 

3 hours ago, hasanhh said:

 As to your first line: of course l do. Yesterday at the store were two women illegal entries with ~5 kids who were laughing and playing their way out the exit ahead of me --just like any other kids.

I second the question asked already, how did you know they were illegal?

Also, I asked several other questions in my post that you didn't respond to. I was genuinely curious at your response. Muslims with your viewpoint are a minority. 

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Bismehe Ta3ala,

Brother @hasanhh

Assalam Alikum.  Joum3 mubaraqa.  God hasten the reappearance of the Imam.  Too much oppression in this world.  

It costs $115 to renew.

and x amount of children, it's expensive.  I don't understand why it is more expensive outside of the states.

I'm just keeping up with taking my children's pictures every year.  We don't have that type of money.  Food, bills, and living expenses are more important than giving the government money to support their wars around the world.  The duas I make for my children are to be upright citizens, have taqwa, and raising righteous children.  Insh'Allah my duas are answered.

M3 Salamah, FE AMIN Allah

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6 hours ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

^ This includes the children of  illegal immigrants, which at least 4.5 million people have benefited from jus soli

"...and subject to the jurisdiction thereof,...

The "and" makes this a minimum of two conditions.

lf l travel from State A through State B, except for traffic law l am not subject to State B for taxes or voting privileges.

Same if l travel through Canada or France or if my wife gives birth does the child become a citizen.

lmportantly, what is forgotten by people who insist on making this assertion is: you may iffily claim the infant is a US citizen, but the parents are not. By force of treaty the child goes with the parents when they are deported. Go back to the highly publicized Elion Gonzolez (sp?) case. Elion's father is in Cuba so Elion was sent back to be with his father. His mother in Florida died or something. The children are likewise deported Article 6, Section 2 US Constitution.

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21 hours ago, notme said:

Do you know these women well enough that you asked their residency status, or are you making an assumption based on their language or ethnicity? 

You mean as, 'l see a black person so l must walk up and ask them if they are (really) black?"

21 hours ago, notme said:

You do know that the majority of Hispanic people in the United States are here legally, right? I knew many Hispanic Americans in the army and while I was at University. One of the best engineers I ever met was a Hispanic woman. 

:hahaha:  There are 3.4 million Puerto Ricans and about half a million Cubans in in the USA.

4.1+ millions is a long, long way from 15+millions -and growing- illegal entries.

l can't find how many are in the Southwest.

Question Uhty: What are you going to do when these illegal entries threaten 'mass violence' (like rioting) to get what they want? That will be more than the "Long Hot Summer" of the 1960s.

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4 hours ago, Mohamed1993 said:

It's funny how republicans love to defend the free-market but they ignore Friedman when it comes to illegal immigration in that it is good for the economy.

:dwarf:"Because illegal is illegal."

Look at the ICE raids in Ohio this week. Those employers face real legal problems and expensive fines. How is that "good" for the economy?

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Everybody on SC take this the right way.

l have read far more 'defense arguments' for illegal entries and their brats flooding into our country here on SC  than l ever did for the defense of lSlL attacked children in lraq and Syria; or those kidnapped and worse of children during the Amerikan lnvasion of lraq and Afghanistan; or during the refugee migration into Europe; or the new 'boat people' in the Mediterranean; or the Rohynga and Kochin in Myanmar; or Gujjarat and Kashmir; the refugee camps in Lebanon, Jordan and Turkey; and so on.

Am l missing something here?

Repeal the Asylum law.

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@notme  l can't get the link up and there are others on facebok, but if you search:

ABC News, Gio Benitez,  border, time:this week (21June18)

you will see an interview of Texas rancher Escobar

l didn't catch his first name.

He was stressed, yet said a lot of the things l have written above. Mostly, "How are we going to pay for this?"

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1 hour ago, hasanhh said:

The "and" makes this a minimum of two conditions.

lf l travel from State A through State B, except for traffic law l am not subject to State B for taxes or voting privileges.

Same if l travel through Canada or France or if my wife gives birth does the child become a citizen.

No, you clearly don't understand what I am talking about and that is clearly not how the American jus soli  works, if you are born on American soil, air space and waters, you are automatically an US  citizen or national (If you are born in American Samoa or Swaim's Island, you are an American national and must naturalized as per Tuana v. US. The citizenship clause does not extend in these particular territories.)  It is according to US v. Wong Kim Ark (1898), that "The immigration status or lack thereof of the parents has no bearing on a child's acquisition of citizenship at birth in these circumstances.".  As long as the parents were in areas of American jurisdiction, the child is a US citizen and the immigration status of the parents does not affect this whatsoever. The only exclusions are children of foreign diplomatic officers and  " children born to enemy forces engaged in hostile occupation of the country's territory".

Canada: 

Quote

Under paragraph 3(1)(a) of the 1977 Act, any person who was born in Canada on or after 15 February 1977 acquires Canadian citizenship at birth. The Interpretation Act states that the term "Canada" not only includes Canadian soil, but also "the internal waters" and "the territorial sea" of Canada, with the term "internal waters" being defined as including "the airspace above". Hence, Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada considers all children who were born over Canadian airspace as Canadian citizens. In one 2008 case, a girl born to a Ugandan mother aboard a Northwest Airlines flight from Amsterdam to Boston was deemed a Canadian citizen because she was born over Canadian airspace.

In addition, the interpretation section of the Citizenship Act states that any person who was born on an aircraft registered in Canada, or a vessel registered in Canada, is considered to be born in Canada.

France: 

Quote

A child born in France to foreign parents may acquire French citizenship:

at birth, if stateless.

at 18, if resident in France with at least 5 years' residence since age 11.

between 16 and 18 upon request by the child and if resident in France with at least 5 years' residence since age 11.

between 13 and 16 upon request by the child's parents and if resident in France continuously since age 8.

if born in France of parents born before independence in a colony/territory in the past under French sovereignty.

at birth, if born in France before January 1, 1994.

at age 18, if born in France on or after January 1, 1994

^ Both have nothing to do with traveling stateside, which is irrelevant to the discussion at hand... 

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12 hours ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

As long as the parents were in areas of American jurisdiction, the child is a US citizen and the immigration status of the parents does not affect this whatsoever.

Exactly, and when the parents are deported the child goes with them --by force of treaty.

12 hours ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

France: 

As l read this past Winter, lf your immigrant parents gain French citizenship, you still have to apply for citizenship.

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2 hours ago, hasanhh said:

Everybody on SC take this the right way.

l have read far more 'defense arguments' for illegal entries and their brats flooding into our country here on SC  than l ever did for the defense of lSlL attacked children in lraq and Syria; or those kidnapped and worse of children during the Amerikan lnvasion of lraq and Afghanistan; or during the refugee migration into Europe; or the new 'boat people' in the Mediterranean; or the Rohynga and Kochin in Myanmar; or Gujjarat and Kashmir; the refugee camps in Lebanon, Jordan and Turkey; and so on.

Am l missing something here?

Repeal the Asylum law.

I agree with you.

But expect people to leave their war torn countries and arrive illegally or legally in America and European countries. 

Gone were the days where America can cause invasions and not expect consequences of its actions.

I will call it first.  America will not be destroyed from a foreign country, but Americans will destroy it from within.  Notice how this Administration has done nothing but divisiveness.

Dump can not unite the American people.  The Land of the Free is failing and falling.  Sub7an'Allah.  

M3 Salamah, Fe Amin Allah 

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14 hours ago, hasanhh said:

You mean as, 'l see a black person so l must walk up and ask them if they are (really) black?"

:hahaha:  There are 3.4 million Puerto Ricans and about half a million Cubans in in the USA.

4.1+ millions is a long, long way from 15+millions -and growing- illegal entries.

l can't find how many are in the Southwest.

Question Uhty: What are you going to do when these illegal entries threaten 'mass violence' (like rioting) to get what they want? That will be more than the "Long Hot Summer" of the 1960s.

I lived in East Lost Angeles for a few years after college. As some of you know, that area had a large number of immigrants of Hispanic heritage (I don't know what the makeup of the area is now, I haven't been in a while) and alot of immigrants who were 'clandestino'. For the most part, these people just want to 'fly below the radar' so they can work and send money to their families, who are poor and destitute. The last thing they want to do is take any action, like rioting or even demonstrating, that would get the 'on the radar' and more likely to get caught and deported. While they could 'try again' after they get deported, illegal crossing of the US border is a huge expense (costing many thousands of dollars) for someone who isn't making much money, and most of them are paid below minimum wage. It is also extremely dangerous. There are , of course, some criminals amoung this population, but in my experience this percentage is much lower than amoung the general population. They are usually much more careful about following the parts of the law that are possible for them to follow, because one wrong move and their whole world collapses under their feet. SNL did a comedy sketch about this a little while ago. Although this is comedy, there is some truth to it. 

So, in short, the only people who are worried about illegal immigrants 'rising up' and other types of nonsense are those who have never lived around them. 

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10 hours ago, Abu Hadi said:

...'clandestino'. For the most part, these people just want to 'fly below the radar' so they can work and send money to their families, who are poor and destitute

.As l wrote on page 3, #3 this system is all messed-up.

Like you wrote, the 'clandestinos' (new word for me) try to stay out of site. Yet if that worthless Congress of ours had provided a visa system for them to work, not to fear about calling the police, and so on, these 'clandestinos' would have to live on the margins.

About a quarter century ago, l worked a job that had two men from Mauritania, one from Mali and one from Senegal. They got work visas, came to the US, paid taxes, lived frugally together, and then went home "rich" to get married, buy property while still in their 20s. :cool:

Now there is no reason why such a system cannot be set up for Latinos.

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15 minutes ago, Abu Hadi said:

So, in short, the only people who are worried about illegal immigrants 'rising up' and other types of nonsense are those who have never lived around them

This l do not agree with.  As l wrote above, widespread resentment and 'concern' is building. You saw the Pittsburgh shooting this week and the resulting protests. What happens if some other incident incites people against the illegal entries?

Guessing that this was a decade ago, in a city about 10 miles from me, some illegal raped a 9 year old. Even though the other men in the house they rented helped the police --such as went looking, told police places he knew, and the phone call they made led to the people there to hold the guy until the police came-- a couple of days later someone firebombed their home and it burned down.

See one reason l am not so optimistic?

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10 hours ago, hasanhh said:

.As l wrote on page 3, #3 this system is all messed-up.

Like you wrote, the 'clandestinos' (new word for me) try to stay out of site. Yet if that worthless Congress of ours had provided a visa system for them to work, not to fear about calling the police, and so on, these 'clandestinos' would have to live on the margins.

About a quarter century ago, l worked a job that had two men from Mauritania, one from Mali and one from Senegal. They got work visas, came to the US, paid taxes, lived frugally together, and then went home "rich" to get married, buy property while still in their 20s. :cool:

Now there is no reason why such a system cannot be set up for Latinos.

Clandestino means 'Clandestine' in Spanish. It is the word used by Mexicans to describe those living without documents. 

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1 hour ago, hasanhh said:

This l do not agree with.  As l wrote above, widespread resentment and 'concern' is building. You saw the Pittsburgh shooting this week and the resulting protests. What happens if some other incident incites people against the illegal entries?

Guessing that this was a decade ago, in a city about 10 miles from me, some illegal raped a 9 year old. Even though the other men in the house they rented helped the police --such as went looking, told police places he knew, and the phone call they made led to the people there to hold the guy until the police came-- a couple of days later someone firebombed their home and it burned down.

See one reason l am not so optimistic?

I can't speak for all illegal immigrants, but the community I grew up around (Hispanic / Latino), the very last thing they want is to be 'noticed'. Like others have said, the illegal immigrants are a very small percentage of the Hispanic/Latino community in the US, as most of them are here legally and/or were born here. America is a nation of immigrants. My ancestors came here 150 years ago (approx) from The Netherlands/Germany. There was no immigration system at that time, as their is now, but I would think if there was, I would not want my ancestors to be treated like criminals just for wanting to make a better life for themselves and their children (who were my great, great grandparents). 

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7 hours ago, hasanhh said:

You mean as, 'l see a black person so l must walk up and ask them if they are (really) black?"

One is a skin color, the other is a form of documentation you can’t know by “looking” at a person. 

Now I know you’re just making up stuff on the fly.

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5 hours ago, hasanhh said:

Exactly, and when the parents are deported the child goes with them --by force of treaty.

Source? 

Nativism and anti-immigration sentiment got the American people nowhere except a civil war. Please remember that  next time when Rush Limbaugh gives a spiel about the "evil" immigrants and how Democrats give them everything on a silver platter.

5 hours ago, hasanhh said:

As l read this past Winter, lf your immigrant parents gain French citizenship, you still have to apply for citizenship.

Correct but the other ways are still valid e.g. Your parents receive  citizenship and have requested your citizenship after you live with them in  France for the required five years since age eleven.

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7 hours ago, hasanhh said:

You mean as, 'l see a black person so l must walk up and ask them if they are (really) black?"

No, I mean as if you see a black person and assume they have come here from Africa themselves. You said you are not racist, but the assumption that a Hispanic stranger is "illegal" as an offensively racist assumption. 

I've known a few "illegal" residents, and not one of them has been Hispanic. I've known many Hispanic people (in the army, at my university, through work, and social activities) and not one of them has been "illegal". 

People who have immigrated here legally or were born here are not "illegal", no matter what is their ethnicity. 

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On 6/18/2018 at 9:16 PM, Sumerian said:

This wouldn't happen if they stopped the immigration flow. It's a joke how the most powerful country in the world can't even control its own borders, when the smallest countries in the world can.

I think the best thing is to give amnesty and citzenship to those who already made it in the US and stop seperating families, but at the same time they need to do something to stop people pouring in.

Absolutely not 

I love Mexican people but we need to close the border 

No amnesty and massive deportations of illegals is the way to go 

Im 100 % with mr trump on this issue

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6 hours ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

Source? 

The UN Convention and there is a Protocol that goes with it.

6 hours ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

Nativism and anti-immigration sentiment got the American people nowhere except a civil war. Please remember that  next time when Rush Limbaugh gives a spiel about the "evil" immigrants and how Democrats give them everything on a silver platter

l listened to Rush for different perspectives. Same as with the whiney NPR, on-line newspapers, and foreign media.

6 hours ago, notme said:

You said you are not racist, but the assumption that a Hispanic stranger is "illegal" as an offensively racist assumption. 

HOW ?

6 hours ago, notme said:

I've known a few "illegal" residents, and not one of them has been Hispanic.

There were a lot of illegal Pakistanis in NYC until after 9-11 when they about all hopped buses and headed for Canada --according to the paper back then.

6 hours ago, notme said:

no matter what is their ethnicity. 

This illegal entry disaster has nothing to do with ethnicity. lIIegaI entry Norwegians are still illegal entries.

6 hours ago, Panzerwaffe said:

I love Mexican people but we need to close the border 

:clap: Emoji aside, a friend of my father's and his family had a second home down in Mexico somewhere. His friend never said anything but a positive remark about Mexico. He died in the 90s. 

Personally, l have nothing against any ethnicity -excepting one. A few years ago l saw these imported tomatoes from Mexico at Walmart. So l bought some. Those happened to be the best Roma tomatoes l ever bought off-a-shelf. Or any other kind of tomatoe.  l still buy them though they are just in the 'good' grade now.

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8 hours ago, hasanhh said:

Everybody on SC take this the right way.

l have read far more 'defense arguments' for illegal entries and their brats flooding into our country here on SC  than l ever did for the defense of lSlL attacked children in lraq and Syria; or those kidnapped and worse of children during the Amerikan lnvasion of lraq and Afghanistan; or during the refugee migration into Europe; or the new 'boat people' in the Mediterranean; or the Rohynga and Kochin in Myanmar; or Gujjarat and Kashmir; the refugee camps in Lebanon, Jordan and Turkey; and so on.

Am l missing something here?

Repeal the Asylum law.

nationalism, like alcohol, makes a drunk out of anyone that consumes it..regardless of race, gender, religion, or level of intellect. you are trying to justify a wrong, an Israeli MO, by comparing US to ISIS or Gujrat or...

It is wrong, it is disgraceful, it is inhuman, and more broadly its just plain ugly to defend the birth of Baby Jails. It simply is indefensible. You want to fix 'your country's' immigration system? All the power to you...snatching babies and throwing them into concentration camps is the wrong way to go about it. 

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On 6/20/2018 at 11:27 AM, notme said:

Thanks. 

Politicians are evil, every one of them. Power always corrupts, at least always when humans are involved. 

I have four children. My three year old doesn't talk. I cant imagine what would happen to him if he were put in a warehouse in the care of other children, especially with him not able to communicate his needs. I can't imagine what circumstances must exist in their homelands that these people are willing to risk everything for a chance at escape. Those people could be me, could be you, could be any one of us, but for fortunate birth. 

I'll never understand dehumanization of our brothers and sisters in humanity. If I ever do understand, I will die of sadness or madness. I don't want to understand, it's too awful. 

Unfortunately, those poor children have become the collateral damage in this American civil war between the globalists camp led by AIPAC, the so called Liberals, and Neocons; and the nationalist camp represented by the Donald and the disgruntled middle class White America that does not see a global America in their interests....like almost everything in our world today, the very nature and origin of this crisis is very American....this super american materialistic way of life that makes for such ugliness. Its not the fault of the politicians at all but that of the public that bid on the loudest & most shameless politicians. 

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@Gaius I. Caesar

Bro, you asked about international obligations. l found some intro stuff for you with which pages so you don't uselessly burn up your time. What surprised me is how the US has things more complicated. Before the source, the US is a signatory of the 1989 Convention on the Rights of a Child (CRC) and it has not been ratified by the Senate.

https://scholarship.law.berkeley.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1239&context=bjil 

Using the article's page numbers:

pp222-226: on page 224, states have a right to exclude aliens

For not separating families, you'll see on page 259 Section C  that the US has traditionally used "best interests of the child" as its basic consideration, but there are also parental rights, cultural integrity and "arbitrary interference" in families (as well as "arbitrary expulsion"). Yet this is not an overriding factor: page 272 last paragraph.

So as you can go find and read, families are kept together unless specific grounds are found.

lf the parents are deported, the child goes with them.

OPINE: l found this an interesting read.

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I kneeled down in front of the recliner, and this kid just threw himself into my arms and didn’t let go,” Alicia Hart, an emergency physician in South Texas, said. “He cried and I cried.”

Photograph by U.S. Department of Health & Human Services via Reuters

https://www.newyorker.com/news/as-told-to/a-physician-in-south-texas-on-an-unnerving-encounter-with-an-eight-year-old-boy-in-immigration-detention/amp?__twitter_impression=true

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