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In the Name of God بسم الله
notme

Detention of undocumented migrant children

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4 minutes ago, Sumerian said:

This isn't nationalism, this is an issue of national and economic security. We don't own the Earth, as the mountains, rivers and forrests are owned by the Imam (as). But what is equally true, is government is authoratative and the purpose for it is to help its own people. As per Islamic Law, the migrants who come in to a country without the permission of the authorities have committed a sin, because obeying the laws of the land is obligatory.

i was not aware that crossing a man made border was a sin.  But, yes, I agree that once you enter a country, you need to obey the laws of the land.

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Just now, forte said:

i was not aware that crossing a man made border was a sin.  But, yes, I agree that once you enter a country, you need to obey the laws of the land.

All these man made laws are obligatory to follow unless there is not to.

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6 hours ago, forte said:

People are going to come and when they come "illegally" it causes a lot of long term problems for many people (as I mentioned before).  If there was a more humane way of allowing people to access a better life, and they came through "legally", they could be documented and supported in a way that would benefit everyone.  People should not be denied basic rights because of a national border.  

Also, to be blunt, The United States is powerful and wealthy based on a lot of the actions of the American governments over many years of maintaining slaves,  invading formerly stable nations, threatening and bullying, economically manipulating, causing massive and severe hardship for many people around the globe.  I would think that the all people who have been hurt by these actions, absolutely have a right to claim asylum; they have more than paid for it.  And that is a lot of people.

Domestically, the only thing an impenetrable border will do, is to further develop and maintain the gap between the wealthy (referred to as the one percenters) and the lower middle class and poor.

If you want to really reduce immigration, you need to improve the living conditions in the areas that these people are risking their life to leave.  

Not true. There's millions of migrants across the world who have legally gone to different countries. I gave the example of the UAE, where there's more migrants than citzens, and they went there legally with the permission of their governments and the Emirati government.

What rights are being denied? They could apply for migration. Read this;

Since 2000, legal immigrants to the United States number approximately 1,000,000 per year, of whom about 600,000 are Change of Status who already are in the U.S. Legal immigrants to the United States now are at their highest level ever, at just over 37,000,000 legal immigrants. Illegal immigration may be as high as 1,500,000 per year with a net of at least 700,000 illegal immigrants arriving every year.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_the_United_States

Millions come to the US legally. So it really isn't an issue to come legally.

As for the crimes of the US government, they are known especially to me since I'm Iraqi. But what is the relevance?

Also, how far are you willing to go? Get rid of the borders for good? 

Domestically, illegal immigration does not change the gap between the wealthy and the poor so I'm not sure what the relevance is.

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4 hours ago, Sumerian said:

Not true. There's millions of migrants across the world who have legally gone to different countries. I gave the example of the UAE, where there's more migrants than citzens, and they went there legally with the permission of their governments and the Emirati government.

What rights are being denied? They could apply for migration. Read this;

Since 2000, legal immigrants to the United States number approximately 1,000,000 per year, of whom about 600,000 are Change of Status who already are in the U.S. Legal immigrants to the United States now are at their highest level ever, at just over 37,000,000 legal immigrants. Illegal immigration may be as high as 1,500,000 per year with a net of at least 700,000 illegal immigrants arriving every year.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_the_United_States

Millions come to the US legally. So it really isn't an issue to come legally.

As for the crimes of the US government, they are known especially to me since I'm Iraqi. But what is the relevance?

Also, how far are you willing to go? Get rid of the borders for good? 

Domestically, illegal immigration does not change the gap between the wealthy and the poor so I'm not sure what the relevance is.

You need to do a lot more reading and study on migration and the reasons for migration for all concerned.  Migration used to happen naturally but man made greed (grab all you can and hold it in one place for a select few) and aggression (if you don't have it, steal it - again for the select few)  has created inhumane, desperate situations for many people.  

You also need to ask yourself why one person is more deserving than another human - you migrated to the US but others should not have this same unfettered opportunity? It is typical for new migrants to want to stem the flow after they have reached a place of safety and economic security.  They feel their new found security and standard of living is possibly going to be threatened by new comers.  It is natural to feel this way.

Should the American government have listened to Americans who did not want Iraqis/Arabs/Muslims/various-prejudicial-terminology identifiers... from entering the country?  You are trying to protect a system that desperately needs to change and it will change.  It can change with acceptance and tolerance or it will' be ugly and feel threatening.  But it is going to happen.  The numbers of the victims of this greed and intolerance are just too massive. 

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19 minutes ago, forte said:

You need to do a lot more reading and study on migration and the reasons for migration for all concerned.  Migration used to happen naturally but man made greed (grab all you can and hold it in one place) and aggression (if you don't have it, steal it)  has created inhumane, desperate situations for many people.  

You also need to ask yourself why one person is more deserving than another human - you migrated to the US but others should not have this same unfettered opportunity? It is typical for new migrants to want to stem the flow after they have reached a place of safety and economic security.  It is natural as they feel their new found security and standard of living is possibly going to be threatened by new comers.  It is natural to feel this way.

Should the American government have listened to Americans who did not want Iraqis/Arabs/Muslims/various-prejudicial-terminology identifiers... from entering the country?  You are trying to protect a system that desperately needs to change and it will change.  It can change with acceptance and tolerance or it will' be ugly and feel threatening.  But it is going to happen.  The numbers of the victims of this greed and intolerance are just too massive. 

I don't live in America, but I do live in a Western nation, just to get that clear. 

Yes, greed is bad, poverty is bad. But what does that have to do with illegal immigration? Again you're not connecting the dots, you're just naming bad things.

Some people are born in a safe environment and others aren't, and while that shouldn't be happen, and that the ideal is everyone should be safe and sound, the fact is it is impossible to help everyone in the world. The US government should address its own domestic problems first before it goes on a humanitarian campaign to rid the world of evil and poverty.

It seems you're just taking an extreme approach which is let everyone in without being nuanced. Borders are useless.

No one should be against immigration by Muslims, Mexicans or Arabs, my position is it is smarter to promote legal migration.

Edited by Sumerian

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58 minutes ago, Sumerian said:

I don't live in America, but I do live in a Western nation, just to get that clear. 

Yes, greed is bad, poverty is bad. But what does that have to do with illegal immigration? Again you're not connected the dots, you're just naming bad things.

Some people are born in a safe environment and others aren't, and while that shouldn't happy as the ideal is that everyone should be safe and sound, the fact is it is impossible to help everyone in the world. 

It seems you're just taking an extreme approach which is let everyone in without being nuanced. No one should be against immigration by Muslims, Mexicans or Arabs, my position is it is smarter to promote legal migration.

The problem is what defines legal immigration and how it is defined.  It is defined by greed, not need.  Migration needs to supersede this and from these needs there has to be a more equatable system.  The current system is not working due to a lot of factors.

For example:

I live in a city that has allowed huge numbers of LEGAL immigrants from China.  However, many of these immigrants are high end criminals and got in because they have money - lots of it.  They now live in "my country", continue to exploit workers in China at their no labour law industries, enjoy the trappings of their new life (as they live in a country that gives them all the rights that they deny their countrymen), pay no taxes as they have no income (on paper) from their new country and intimidate other new mainland Chinese immigrants who dont know the laws or language of the new country (and so will not report them to police) and have securely implemented their lucrative no paper trail scams set up, often before arrival.  They have a class structured culture that is run by their own "Golden Rule".  That rule is "He who has the gold, makes the rules".  

Do you protect that? Because hiding behind some pseudo legalities in order to keep back the low end socio-economic crowd is what you are unknowingly supporting - like I said, you need to try and be objective and read more on this as unemotionally as possible.  Don't be fooled by terminology.  Search out what is really happening and how this is affecting others.  

In regards to American domestic policy - the one percenters develop that policy - so who do you think is structured to benefit from it? Who do you think is structured to financially support it?  aka support the one percenters?  Keeping out those who would ultimately question their motives and subsequent policies, is in their best interest. 

We, as Muslims, as humans, cannot continue to support the status quo as defined by those with questionable motives.

LOL  As for dots - I connect the dots just fine. And I earned the right to do so - because I have studied for many years and have collected lots of dots and am always searching for more.  When one hasn't yet found a significant number of dots, world views can be very limited.  Until the dots are found, one's parameters are too limited to others' perceptions and to those who make the biggest noise.

Edited by forte

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8 minutes ago, forte said:

We, as Muslims, as humans, cannot continue to support the status quo as defined by those with questionable motives.

This is 100%. How can we cry for Hussein (as) and justify oppression during our own time? It's hypocrisy. 

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I've said nothing against detaining asylum seeking or illegal border crossing immigrant families until their case has been reviewed by a judge. It's what's been done for years. The system had serious flaws that needed to be addressed - like the recent review that concluded that more than a thousand unaccompanied minors were unaccounted for and at least four had been verified as released to human traffikers. But that means we need to make it better, not worse. 

So much for "American family values".

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Mind you, this is not unprecedented. Thousands of Native American children were ripped from their families and subjected to horrific abuse in boarding schools, and let's not even start on how African slaves were treated. We need to rise above our cruel and subhuman past. 

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1 minute ago, notme said:

Mind you, this is not unprecedented. Thousands of Native American children were ripped from their families and subjected to horrific abuse in boarding schools, and let's not even start on how African slaves were treated. We need to rise above our cruel and subhuman past. 

Yep.  It is wake up time, regardless of the discomfort of going against long established patterns of behaviour.

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8 minutes ago, notme said:

I've said nothing against detaining asylum seeking or illegal border crossing immigrant families until their case has been reviewed by a judge. It's what's been done for years. The system had serious flaws that needed to be addressed - like the recent review that concluded that more than a thousand unaccompanied minors were unaccounted for and at least four had been verified as released to human traffikers. But that means we need to make it better, not worse. 

So much for "American family values".

If there was a better migrant flow system that was safe for everyone, I am sure most people would abide by it and this mess would be history. 

Edited by forte

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48 minutes ago, forte said:

The problem is what defines legal immigration and how it is defined.  It is defined by greed, not need.  Migration needs to supersede this and from these needs there has to be a more equatable system.  The current system is not working due to a lot of factors.

Current system is working well for many countries in Europe who have had sane immigration policies, like Switzerland. 

48 minutes ago, forte said:

For example:

I live in a city that has allowed huge numbers of LEGAL immigrants from China.  However, many of these immigrants are high end criminals and got in because they have money - lots of it.  They now live in "my country", continue to exploit workers in China at their no labour law industries, enjoy the trappings of their new life (as they live in a country that gives them all the rights that they deny their countrymen), pay no taxes as they have no income (on paper) from their new country and intimidate other new mainland Chinese immigrants who dont know the laws or language of the new country (and so will not report them to police) and have securely implemented their lucrative no paper trail scams set up, often before arrival.  They have a class structured culture that is run by their own "Golden Rule".  That rule is "He who has the gold, makes the rules".  

Do you protect that? Because hiding behind some pseudo legalities in order to keep back the low end socio-economic crowd is what you are unknowingly supporting - like I said, you need to try and be objective and read more on this as unemotionally as possible.  Don't be fooled by terminology.  Search out what is really happening and how this is affecting others.  

No, you don't protect that, because you prosecute criminals whether they are legal immigrants or citzens or illegal immigrants or whatever their status is. What is your point? That legal migration promotes crime and exploitation? If it is, it just doesn't. What does promote crime is the entry of criminals, as you said, which is a problem, but that problem can be limited through strong background checks and documentation. In fact, this issue is more prevalent with illegal immigration, not legal. That's more of a methodology problem, not a systemic issue where one should advocate for the abolishing of borders.

48 minutes ago, forte said:

In regards to American domestic policy - the one percenters develop that policy - so who do you think is structured to benefit from it? Who do you think is set up to financially support the one percenters?  Keeping out those who would ultimately question their motives and subsequent policies, is in their best interest. 

It is corporations who benefit from that status quo of allowing millions of immigrants because that turns into cheap labour and below minimum wage work, in effect exploitation.

https://www.nationalreview.com/2013/06/illegal-immigration-elite-illiberality-victor-davis-hanson/

Edited by Sumerian

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42 minutes ago, notme said:

Mind you, this is not unprecedented. Thousands of Native American children were ripped from their families and subjected to horrific abuse in boarding schools, and let's not even start on how African slaves were treated. We need to rise above our cruel and subhuman past. 

This is a good argument for why these illegal entries go home. This way they will not be subject to such inhumane treatment.

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34 minutes ago, Sumerian said:

Current system is working well for many countries in Europe who have had sane immigration policies, like Switzerland. 

No, you don't protect that, because you prosecute criminals whether they are legal immigrants or citzens or illegal immigrants or whatever their status is. What is your point? That legal migration promotes crime and exploitation? If it is, it just doesn't. What does promote crime is the entry of criminals, as you said, which is a problem, but that problem can be limited through strong background checks and documentation. In fact, this issue is more prevalent with illegal immigration, not legal. That's more of a methodology problem, not a systemic issue where one should advocate for the abolishing of borders.

It is corporations who benefit from that status quo of allowing millions of immigrants because that turns into cheap labour and below minimum wage work, in effect exploitation.

https://www.nationalreview.com/2013/06/illegal-immigration-elite-illiberality-victor-davis-hanson/

If they were legal immigrants, they would be able to sue such corporations that exploit them for greed. 

Basically what you are saying is that the system worked for you and you will be the shill to protect it at all costs.  And, yes, Switzerland has done a great job at protecting and providing for their rich and for the rich of the world. 

Once a well honed high end criminal is in your country, it is very very difficult to prosecute as their activities are ensconced in layers and layers of protection implemented by well paid attorneys and the like.  Most people know this. However, they passed the LEGAL immigration test of investing a minimum set amount of money in the country.  Again this is LEGAL.  Criminality is unknown until the Chinese justice system seeks to extradite them to face trial.  But LEGALLY that cannot be done as our country is fearful of what treatment they might receive in China.

It would help if you would use this as a learning opportunity and at least investigate what some posters have written and gain some knowledge and use the new leads for new facts to look up. 

Edited by forte

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6 minutes ago, hasanhh said:

This is a good argument for why these illegal entries go home. This way they will not be subject to such inhumane treatment.

For many, this is better than what they left or at least they think it is better. Bottom line is that there is more money which means hope for their kids.  Money is important as many live in poverty at a level unknown in the states.

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1 minute ago, hasanhh said:

This is a good argument for why these illegal entries go home. This way they will not be subject to such inhumane treatment.

Sad, but true. The United States is not a good place right now.

But they surely aren't going anywhere without their children. Separating families immobilizes them. They can't go home. 

Again, it's alarmingly racist to excuse the policy and condemn the victim. Have you ever known anyone who was in the US illegally? Have you ever known any immigrants who came here to escape terrors at home at all? What do you think is going to happen to these children next? How much do you think they should suffer for their parents' misdemeanor? 

And think how awful things must be in their homes, that they are willing to risk death or worse to escape. Yet you and others like you feel justified in extending their torture. 

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1 minute ago, forte said:

For many, this is better than what they left or at least they think it is better. Bottom line is that there is more money which means hope for their kids.  Money is important as many live in poverty at a level unknown in the states.

It isn't just money. Many are running from towns overrun by drug cartels who will enslave, rape, or kill them and the police are unwilling or unable to do anything to stop it. 

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l think the whole system along the border is messed-up all the way around.

There is no system for cross-border registration and protection for day workers. So they work for people who then don't pay them and have no recourse. Similarly, in a profile of one early teenage girl, she crosses the border every weekday to go to a private school and then goes home every night. How is she supposed to get through a wall without a gate?

The army processing centers can do several hundred a day, but the worthless Congress will not set up a system.

Then we are inundated by tens of thousands of "asylum seekers" trying to game the system by pleading "persecution". Spousal abuse, bad neighborhoods, gangs, and other such hokey claims --for things that exist in the US and every other country.

What needs to be done is Repeal the Asylum law, then these illegal entries will have no excuse not to get out and go home.

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7 minutes ago, notme said:

It isn't just money. Many are running from towns overrun by drug cartels who will enslave, rape, or kill them and the police are unwilling or unable to do anything to stop it. 

Yes - totally agree.   Anyone that would risk their own life and the lives of their children to escape these situations are completely desperate. They would face death rather than remain in a hell hole of unimaginable terror.  I cant believe that there are people (especially Shia) who can justify (with laws from a country that they would in any other situation have no respect for) smugly turning their backs on them.  It is demoralizing.

Edited by forte

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I read an article - I didn't verify its authenticity - that said farms in California are suffering a labor shortage since immigration is down so much and citizens are unwilling to accept seasonal, low pay, strenuous labor jobs.

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5 minutes ago, notme said:

Sad, but true. The United States is not a good place right now.

But they surely aren't going anywhere without their children. Separating families immobilizes them. They can't go home. 

Again, it's alarmingly racist to excuse the policy and condemn the victim. Have you ever known anyone who was in the US illegally? Have you ever known any immigrants who came here to escape terrors at home at all? What do you think is going to happen to these children next? How much do you think they should suffer for their parents' misdemeanor? 

And think how awful things must be in their homes, that they are willing to risk death or worse to escape. Yet you and others like you feel justified in extending their torture. 

Uhty, l was marred to a North African, my first fiancée was Chinese, and my cousin married a Latin girl 50 years ago. How the hell do you fanaticize  that l am "racist
". ???????

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Just now, hasanhh said:

 

I don't know your background, I only know the words you share here. Perhaps classist, but certainly some kind of elitism must be the cause of justifying cruel crimes against impoverished children. I can't fathom any other justification. Those people could be you, but for your fortunate birth, or their unfortunate birth. 

I'll agree with you that the entire border policy is bad and has been for a long time, but I'm of the opinion that we became a "superpower" nation on a very open immigration policy. I'm in favor of screening out criminals, but letting anyone else in who wants to work and contribute to our society. Diversity is the biggest accomplishment America has. 

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2 minutes ago, notme said:

I read an article - I didn't verify its authenticity - that said farms in California are suffering a labor shortage since immigration is down so much and citizens are unwilling to accept seasonal, low pay, strenuous labor jobs.

That is promoting a fraudulent claim.  For example, in 1959 the first tomatoe harvester was marketed. Search "tomato harvester", "grape harvester" for mechanical examples. There is no crop that does not have harvester. And there is not one that cannot be made.  As l remember, the first cotton picker was marketed in 1867. Horse drawn, of course.

These illegal entries are not needed for crops and they already have our exported manufacturing jobs. They are only here for the hand-outs.

Are you old enough to remember when apple tree shakers were first used in West Virginia, in the 1970s ?

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2 hours ago, notme said:

I don't know your background, I only know the words you share here. Perhaps classist, but certainly some kind of elitism must be the cause of justifying cruel crimes against impoverished children. I can't fathom any other justification. Those people could be you, but for your fortunate birth, or their unfortunate birth. 

Reminds me of an old quote which was on a wall on one of the buildings at my university - I am not sure of the origin. It said "There but for the grace of God, go I"  Something we should always remember.

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2 minutes ago, forte said:

Reminds me of an old quote which was on a wall on one of the buildings at my university - I am not sure of the origin. It said "There but for the grace of God, go I"  Something we should always remember.

True, and "God" put them way South of here. That is another reason why they have to back.

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1 minute ago, hasanhh said:

True, and "God" put them way South of here. That is another reason why they have to back.

It is meant to be used for inner reflection, to appreciate and be thankful for what you have, not to callously condemn and reject your brothers in humanity.

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24 minutes ago, forte said:

Reminds me of an old quote which was on a wall on one of the buildings at my university - I am not sure of the origin. It said "There but for the grace of God, go I"  Something we should always remember.

As an Aside:  Notice that such posters do not feature pictures of rock stars, movie stars, Hillary, Senator Feinenstein  and such?

Edited by hasanhh

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1 hour ago, hasanhh said:

True, and "God" put them way South of here. That is another reason why they have to back.

If we were meant to be rooted to the soil where we originate, we would be as trees. Migration away from oppression is ordained by the Quran. 

http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=4&verse=97

But I feel like at this point you're arguing just to argue. 

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1 hour ago, notme said:

If we were meant to be rooted to the soil where we originate, we would be as trees. Migration away from oppression is ordained by the Quran. 

http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=4&verse=97

But I feel like at this point you're arguing just to argue. 

Not true.

Also, "ordained" is the wrong word. Permitted is more accurate and in some cases "encouraged" to avoid sin and such things.

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1 hour ago, hasanhh said:

Not true.

Also, "ordained" is the wrong word. Permitted is more accurate and in some cases "encouraged" to avoid sin and such things.

If your habitation will be hell if you didn't  migrate when oppressed, that sounds a lot more dogmatic than permitted or encouraged.'

Lo! as for those whom the angels take (in death) while they wrong themselves, (the angels) will ask: In what were ye engaged? They will say: We were oppressed in the land. (The angels) will say: Was not Allah's earth spacious that ye could have migrated therein? As for such, their habitation will be hell, an evil journey's end;

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1 hour ago, hasanhh said:

These illegal entries are not needed for crops and they already have our exported manufacturing jobs. They are only here for the hand-outs.

What handouts do illegals get?

The percentage of illegals criminals is probably on our with the percentage of legal criminals. 

If any thing, we should deport illegal criminals, revoke citizenship of legal criminals and give it to illegal law-abiding immigrants. Multiple poems solved. 

The whole immigration debate is just a fear - mongering vote - getting tactic.

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35 minutes ago, hasanhh said:

As an Aside:  Notice that such posters do not feature pictures of rock stars, movie stars, Hillary, Senator Feinenstein  and such?

It was actually part of the stone - engraved in the stone above a door.

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9 minutes ago, ShiaMan14 said:

What handouts do illegals get?

The percentage of illegals criminals is probably on our with the percentage of legal criminals. 

If any thing, we should deport illegal criminals, revoke citizenship of legal criminals and give it to illegal law-abiding immigrants. Multiple poems solved. 

The whole immigration debate is just a fear - mongering vote - getting tactic.

Illegals can get pro bono legal assistance and can go to free medical clinics staffed by volunteers and work underground jobs at slave wages... but I would not call that handouts. 

You mean develop penal colonies like they did in Britain (Australia) and France (Devil's Island)? Hmm...  First Nations people do something similar - they send the offender away to contemplate for a year on their own in some desolate area with minimal tools and resources.  Probably works.

Based on the amount of press it is getting (and also must be a deflection from something else that is happening quietly behind the scenes) I totally agree.

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1 hour ago, hasanhh said:

Uhty, l was marred to a North African, my first fiancée was Chinese, and my cousin married a Latin girl 50 years ago. How the hell do you fanaticize  that l am "racist
". ???????

Because you keep projecting your failures on the immigrants and assume they are remotely like your ex's.  Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that one out.

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