Detention of undocumented migrant children

[hasanhh]

45 minutes ago, Laayla said:

Bismehe Ta3ala,

Assalam Alikum.

Brother @hasanhh

In Islam, family is of utmost importance.  Especially the bond between mother and child.

Brother, could you see the IR Iran separating Afghani mothers from their children?

Look at Lebanon, we have the most Syrian refugees in the world.  What would the American public say if Lebanon decided to put undocumented Syrian mothers in detention centers and seperate them from their children?

I don't know maybe you can't relate to something if it is missing in your life.  Excuse me for bringing it up, I respect you and bring it up with sincerity. Forgive me.

M3 Salamah, FE AMIN Allah 

Despite some discouragements over the last 3 decades, lRl does not separate Afghan mothers and children because they are not being criminally prosecuted.

What would the Amerikan public say? If they even knew about it, they will not care.

Addition: l don't know how familiar you are with Western cultural traditions tied to Roman origins, but an oft quoted Romanism is: "Whomever the gods choose to destroy, they first make mad" (mad = irrational, crazy and such).

[hasanhh]

"This is how un-civil things are getting."

Obscenity Warning

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2018/06/19/immigration-tensions-boil-over-as-dems-accost-trump-intern-curses-as-president.html

The "as" above should be "at" to be correct.

[KnowledgeSeeker36]

Asalamu Alaikum

If any of you are on Facebook and would like to donate to help this situation. Here is a link. 

https://www.facebook.com/donate/490507544717085/

[Wahdat]

On 6/17/2018 at 10:29 PM, notme said:

I'm flabbergasted. While discussing the separation of families for internment due to undocumented border crossing, an elderly relative of mine just announced that she's certain it's all Bill Clinton's fault. I don't know what to say, so I just said nothing at all. 

Your relative may very well have a point- It was Bill Clinton who injected globalization with steroids- empowering multinational corporations while weakening national govts & identities....creating a condition such as now where national govts have become so colourless & impotent that they no longer can provide for their citizens (cuz they have to provide for multinationals) and forcing ordinary people to hit the road in search of areas where govts can and do provide.

[notme]

11 minutes ago, Wahdat said:

Your relative may very well have a point- It was Bill Clinton who injected globalization with steroids- empowering multinational corporations while weakening national govts & identities....creating a condition such as now where national govts have become so colourless & impotent that they no longer can provide for their citizens (cuz they have to provide for multinationals) and forcing ordinary people to hit the road in search of areas where govts can and do provide.

Thanks. 

Politicians are evil, every one of them. Power always corrupts, at least always when humans are involved. 

I have four children. My three year old doesn't talk. I cant imagine what would happen to him if he were put in a warehouse in the care of other children, especially with him not able to communicate his needs. I can't imagine what circumstances must exist in their homelands that these people are willing to risk everything for a chance at escape. Those people could be me, could be you, could be any one of us, but for fortunate birth. 

I'll never understand dehumanization of our brothers and sisters in humanity. If I ever do understand, I will die of sadness or madness. I don't want to understand, it's too awful. 

[ShiaMan14]

9 hours ago, hasanhh said:

Not so. #1 is subversive activity like CISPES was in the 70s and 80s.  #2 "asylees" includes temporary status, like resident cards for immigrant wives and children of US citizens.

Exactly. We are not discussing asylees...but illegal immigrants

[hasanhh]

3 hours ago, ShiaMan14 said:

Exactly. We are not discussing asylees...but illegal immigrants

l think we are talking past each other. The illegal entries were getting temporary status as asylees. Now they are arrested and charged.

l was listening to Rush Limbaugh before the World Cup and he said this separating of children from parents is in the federal statute from the 0bama era.

He also said something else. Until yesterday, as we saw, the nutworks were saying they are denied access to where the children are held. Then yesterday, they showed pictures of crowded facilities and children sleeping under aluminized thermal blankets. According to Limbaugh, these pictures were taken a few years ago when 0boma was President. Not the "discovery" the nutworks claim now.

[Reza]

14 minutes ago, hasanhh said:

l was listening to Rush Limbaugh

Seriously?

[Gaius I. Caesar]

12 hours ago, hasanhh said:

What are you SC and other  "do-gooders" going to do with these vagrants? The US has and million and a half dumb kids in high school quit school every year and then cannot find decent employment. The surveys of these illegal entries found that at best they have 6th Grade educations. What are you believing? People like this are capable of doing no more than sweeping floors and hauling garbage. Jobs already taken by the drop-outs.

 You calling them "vagrants" shows me that I am probably wasting my time discussing this with you but I will say this: The fact that we have dumb high school graduates isn't because of the immigrants but because of the education policies of Bush (No Child Left Behind) and slashing of education funding by DeVos and Trump. Our own government is making us stupid.

The boldened part: That's why they are used in farms as cheap labor and sharecroppers for well over sixty plus years in the United States. Old habits die hard.

[notme]

So apparently now Trump has agreed to sign something stopping his previous policy. I really don't feel good about this. Herr Drumph is too vindictive to actually do what the population demands without exacting some petty revenge. 

What is going to happen to the children who have already been taken, especially the ones taken to Florida, New York, Michigan, and elsewhere? 

[ShiaChat Mod]

I was searching something else online and saw this. It is an opinion or an editorial from a website in New York. 

Quote

Sound Off: June 20, 2018

On family separations at the border:

“What is happening at our southern border today is cruel, appalling and contemptible. The only thing I can think of that would be worse, is for us as ‘concerned citizens’ to quibble about its legality instead of demanding from our representatives in Congress that they immediately put a stop to this abuse! To separate innocent children and toddlers from their mothers and fathers at the end of a danger fraught 2,000-mile trek, taken to escape the horrors that threatened them in their own country, is heartless and barbaric. To shamelessly use their suffering as a deterrent; to use them as pawns in some sick move to achieve a political win; to purposely add to their already immeasurable fear and desperation — and then to claim with smiling Bible-quoting lips and cold, lying eyes that it is not you who are doing it to them — Mr. Sessions, Mr. Trump, and all your other henchmen involved in hatching and carrying out this depraved plot — exposes you all to be not much more than evil incarnate, clothed in appointed, albeit soiled, respectability, and, a worst example of what it means to be an American …  someone who would not only extinguish the brightest beacon of hope in the world, but destroy the lighthouse as well.” 

 http://www.thedailystar.com/opinion/sound_off/sound-off-june/article_663a3bf2-f43b-50d0-a248-7f11ad2ffd04.html

[Laayla]

Bismehe Ta3ala,

Assalam Alikum 

Brother Hasan is a momin brother, I'm going to try to understand his perspective. Some of you may not have an understanding of the immigration process.  It is not simple, but complicated.

Quote

MS-13 appears to use Texas as a stopping point for travel from Los Angeles to the East Coast and for the trafficking of drugs, humans, and weapons between Mexico and the United States.^[17]

In Central America, the gang is strongest in the "Northern Triangle" of El Salvador, Honduras, and Guatemala.

Whatever MSM puts out, I give it a grain of salt.  Because Islam is always a target.  Human trafficking is a huge problem.  I don't know how many children are really with their parents or not.  Allah a3lam.

I believe honest, hard working, people should be treated differently then people who are criminals and cause havoc in society.  

I know as a parent, I wouldn't risk my children to have them seperated from me on a border.  I understand people are desperate.  

Look at what is happening to the Yemenis and Palestinians.  They have no choice to leave.  This world is very cruel and people are becoming desensitized of other people's suffering.

Whatever is going to happen is going to happen.  Trouble is brewing.

God hasten the reappearance of the Imam of Our Time.  The destitute, downtrodden, and poverty stricken can only rely on Allah and Imam Mahdi.

God help them be patient, elahi amen.

M3 Salamah, FE AMIN Allah 

[hasanhh]

1 hour ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

The boldened part: That's why they are used in farms as cheap labor and sharecroppers for well over sixty plus years in the United States.

See what l wrote on page 3 on this thread, the 8th one down.

There is no substantial need for manual farm labor.

lf you look those things up you'll see some cool pictures.

[hasanhh]

2 hours ago, Laayla said:

Brother Hasan is a momin brother, I'm going to try to understand his perspective

Thanks, uhty.

See the first post at the top of this page. Thanx.

[notme]

3 hours ago, notme said:

What is going to happen to the children who have already been taken, especially the ones taken to Florida, New York, Michigan, and elsewhere? 

Media has an answer to my previous question, but the answer is a non-answer.

Trump Retreats on Separating Families, but Thousands Will Remain Apart https://nyti.ms/2I7wWAA

Quote

And a Health and Human Services official said that more than 2,300 children who have already been separated from their parents under the president’s “zero tolerance” policy will not be immediately reunited with their families while the adults remain in federal custody during their immigration proceedings.

“There will not be a grandfathering of existing cases,” said Kenneth Wolfe, a spokesman for the Administration for Children and Families, a division of the Department of Health and Human Services. Mr. Wolfe said the decision about the children was made by the White House, but he added, “I can tell you definitively that is going to be policy.”

[hasanhh]

2 hours ago, notme said:

Media has an answer to my previous question, but the answer is a non-answer.

Trump Retreats on Separating Families, but Thousands Will Remain Apart https://nyti.ms/2I7wWAA

Here is a good article: https://www.cnn.com/2018/06/20/politics/trump-family-separation-executive-order/index.html 

The article delineates what was done by the new ExOrd, what it does not do, how the military will be limitedly involved, and "within resources".

Recommended.

[Gaius I. Caesar]

1 hour ago, hasanhh said:

See what l wrote on page 3 on this thread, the 8th one down.

There is no substantial need for manual farm labor.

lf you look those things up you'll see some cool pictures.

All I see is you arguing to argue.

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2011/10/farms-need-people-not-machines/246944/

Quote

These trends have persisted. Farming now uses four times more energy than in 1950, about 40 percent of which goes into producing fertilizers and pesticides. Some 20 million tons of chemical fertilizer and 1.1 billion pounds of herbicides, insecticides, and fungicides are used on U.S. farms every year. Diversity of farm crops has disappeared. While in 1900 U.S. farms averaged five different crops, farms today average just one. Genetic diversity on farms was reduced by 75 percent during the 20th century, according to a United Nations report.

All of this has taken a heavy environmental toll. Repeated application of agricultural chemicals renders soils brittle and lifeless, prone to blowing and washing away. Eighty percent of U.S. agricultural lands show severe to moderate erosion, which is occurring at a rate seventeen times faster than nature can re-generate soil. Groundwater, lakes, and streams are increasingly contaminated by pesticides, herbicides, and fertilizers.

Although automation and mechanization have reduced the difficult physical labor of food production, they have contributed to our national obesity epidemic, and rendered agriculture utterly dependent on such non-renewable, polluting substitutes for human labor. In today's specialized, segmented, and mechanized agriculture, chemicals are the answer to fertility, pest control, and weed suppression. The farmer's hands, knowledge, and husbandry have been replaced by machines, capital goods, pharmaceuticals, and fossil fuels, used directly to power farm equipment and indirectly to manufacture chemical fertilizers, pesticides, and herbicides.

^ Old article, but this is why Monsanto is big and putting chemicals and pesticides. Our land is slowly being ruined by these corporate fat cats and you have the gall to tell  me :"There is no substantial need for manual farm labor." ?   Guess what it's the immigrants who will take these jobs when  most Americans abhor hard labor because  it's not convenient, doesn't pay well and unglamorous in their eyes. Then you complain the jobs are taken by the illegals. People like you, hasanhh, are exactly what is wrong with this country.  Totally indifferently, selfish and looking for an easy way out. 

[ShiaMan14]

3 hours ago, hasanhh said:

l think we are talking past each other. The illegal entries were getting temporary status as asylees. Now they are arrested and charged.

l was listening to Rush Limbaugh before the World Cup and he said this separating of children from parents is in the federal statute from the 0bama era.

He also said something else. Until yesterday, as we saw, the nutworks were saying they are denied access to where the children are held. Then yesterday, they showed pictures of crowded facilities and children sleeping under aluminized thermal blankets. According to Limbaugh, these pictures were taken a few years ago when 0boma was President. Not the "discovery" the nutworks claim now.

Doesn't Limbaugh also say that Obama is not an American citizen? 

[hasanhh]

5 hours ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

All I see is you arguing to argue.

Not true. You and Notme keep asserting this, probably because l do not subscribe to romanticized fantasies about people, economics, civil-society under the "somehow-maybe-it-will-be-all-wonderful" garbage. You two cannot even offer any suggestion about what these de facto cannot-contributes are going to do but live-off US.

Monsanto was bought-out by Bayer this year, by the way.

5 hours ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

 People like you, hasanhh, are exactly what is wrong with this country.  Totally indifferently, selfish and looking for an easy way out. 

Not true again.  Besides "l am" this country, the illegal entries are not.

[hasanhh]

19 hours ago, ShiaMan14 said:

Doesn't Limbaugh also say that Obama is not an American citizen? 

Not that l know of.

22 hours ago, Reza said:

Seriously?

Yes, "seriously".  Especially yesterday before the lran match. l wanted to hear what he was going to say about this family-separation hysteria. l started listening to him this past Winter because l get so tired of 1] hearing the whiney liberals 'cry' on the radio, and 2] being sicken by their filth-mongering subjects. [What was it Monday or last week? lt was a "my-mommy-does-not-think-l-am-the-kind-of-gay-she-thinks-gays-should-be" .]

[notme]

Saw this on Facebook. Posting for the benefit of @hasanhh . Her words express what all of us are thinking, except those who say "but the law". Not asking for agreement, but understanding would be nice.

https://m.facebook.com/584720924/posts/10155385818920925/?notif_id=1529582307420262&notif_t=notify_me&ref=notif

[notme]

Also, I read that not only is there no plan for reuniting families who have already been divided, they are going to intentionally be kept apart. (Political ransom?)

[forte]

OK I am starting to wonder how much of this horrible situation is being further embellished for political gain which is also sick and repulsive. I would hold some of this as something to investigate and not advertise as actual fact because a ubiquitous "someone" says so.

I can sadly acknowledge that some of these actions are really being done as parents are put in jail, but to make this situation worse by creating conditions of outright, gratuitous cruelty towards parents and children makes no sense.  Aside from the fact that very few people would actually do that, people would not go out of their way to create a situation that is even harder to manage.  

[Ashvazdanghe]

I think trump tried to satisfy both side he tries to show himself as a hero to people that are against it in parallel he still keep detention law alive for other group but both of groups are both side of same coin ,the first group is against detention but they don’t provide an acceptable condition & place for refuges & the other side still can claims protect USA with providing lowest support to them.

[Ashvazdanghe]

Border crisis? -Is it all about the children ..or Hatred of Trump

[hasanhh]

6 hours ago, notme said:

Saw this on Facebook. Posting for the benefit of @hasanhh . Her words express what all of us are thinking, except those who say "but the law". Not asking for agreement, but understanding would be nice.

https://m.facebook.com/584720924/posts/10155385818920925/?notif_id=1529582307420262&notif_t=notify_me&ref=notif

Uhty, l ain't got "wastebook".

The one thing l "understand" is this is a foreign invasion. Something the federal gov't is constitutionally required to protect US from.

l wanted to hear Rush Limbaugh again today. ln the part l did hear he made the claim that Mexico and in other countries are running "how to" commercials to enter our country illegally and how to game the system.

"Huh?  Better not be true."

Several searches found many sites not responding or no longer existing. Date times: 2005-2018.

l did find this one which confirms part of what Limbaugh said:  http://www.star-telegram.com/news/state/texas/article199083384.html

l also tripped over this "flash mob":  https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/21/nyregion/laguardia-immigration-protests.html  dated today(21June18) where a flash mob showed up at the airport "to support" illegal entry children. They are being transported to facility or foster care. Thought you'd like to know. Very short article and no other info than writ here. 

Dang, these illegal entries even get free plane tickets. Why not back to their home countries?

@notme You may wish to be empathetic to 15+ million illegal entries, but think about the supporting flash mob at LaGuardia. What happens if the next one is violently anti-illegal?

[notme]

11 minutes ago, hasanhh said:

@notme You may wish to be empathetic to 15+ million illegal entries, but think about the supporting flash mob at LaGuardia. What happens if the next one is violently anti-illegal?

I support the right to free speech and peaceful assembly, not to threats and mob violence. I will not support violence even if it's in support of a cause that I also agree with. 

 

I don't think you have to have a Facebook account to see a public post. It will show up just like a web page, won't it? Or has this changed? 

Edited June 21, 2018 by notme

[notme]

12 minutes ago, hasanhh said:

Dang, these illegal entries even get free plane tickets. Why not back to their home countries?

And prison inmates even get food and shelter? I really doubt those children want to be transported to places even farther from their parents. It's an awful lot like kidnapping.

[hasanhh]

2 minutes ago, notme said:

I don't think you have to have a Facebook account to see a public post. It will show up just like a web page, won't it? Or has this changed? 

Nothing came up but a "log in". What is the content?

[hasanhh]

1 minute ago, notme said:

And prison inmates even get food and shelter? I really doubt those children want to be transported to places even farther from their parents. It's an awful lot like kidnapping.

My little sister did a faster care once, but it was for an infant.

l meant "foster care".

Edited June 21, 2018 by hasanhh
laugh

[notme]

5 minutes ago, hasanhh said:

Nothing came up but a "log in". What is the content?

It's quite long and I can't copy the text. I'll see if I can copy from another device. It talks about empathy and missing the point, basically a much more eloquent version of what I've been trying to say. 

[notme]

Pentagon asked to make room for 20,000 migrant children on military bases

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/checkpoint/wp/2018/06/21/pentagon-asked-to-make-room-for-20000-migrant-children-on-military-bases/

The article didn't say whether this order was given before or since the new executive order, but the number is unfathomable! I grew up in a city smaller than this in population. 

[Reza]

1 hour ago, hasanhh said:

The one thing l "understand" is this is a foreign invasion.

You know ultimately, these are still human beings, right?

Going deep in the rabbit hole of geopolitics, conspiracies, grudge, cynicism, and “me”/“us”/“them”-isms is a dark and anxiety producing place to be. Explains Rush Limbaugh’s drug habit.

Are you saying these “illegals” are willing participants in a nefarious scheme? Or simply useful idiots, unaware they are being used as a “weapon” (your term, not mine). Irregardless, are you denying these are people who need help? Or is it all (or mostly) scripted and fake? 

And if you admit there are indeed desperate people who need help (at least some), is addressing their humanity a better use of mental energy, or is that better spent on hatred of the “weaponizer” (which seems to trickle down to hatred of the “weapon”).

Take your pick. What would the Prophet do?

[Laayla]

Bismehe Ta3ala,

Assalam Alikum 

One day Americans will want to leave America. I wonder who will take them in.

Hmmmmm

All empires fall.

M3 Salamah, Fe Amin Allah 

[hasanhh]

4 minutes ago, Reza said:

You know ultimately, these are still human beings, right?

...

Take your pick. What would the Prophet do?

Second line first: The "spacious" Earth as revealed in Ayats 4:997, 29:56 and 39:10 are for believers. Like at the Hagira, 1439 Lunar Years ago.

As to your first line: of course l do. Yesterday at the store were two women illegal entries with ~5 kids who were laughing and playing their way out the exit ahead of me --just like any other kids.