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rkazmi33

Madonna- [Edited Out] complex

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For many years, I have been confused by the treatment of married women by society and their husbands. Before marriage, girls are literally treated like princesses, and as soon as they get married, they lose their value in the eyes of society, to me it looks like they are treated like slaves. Most of the men seem to hate their wives, it's one thing to not love your wife, but most of men hate their wives, and I couldn't understand why. Then I read about Madonna-[Edited Out] complex and a light bulb went off in my head. From Wikipedia: 

"Freud argued that the Madonna–[Edited Out] complex was caused by a split between the affectionate and the sexual currents in male desire.[5] Oedipal and castration anxiety fears prohibit the affection felt for past incestuous objects from being attached to women who are sensually desired: "The whole sphere of love in such persons remains divided in the two directions personified in art as sacred and profane (or animal) love".[5] In order to minimize anxiety, the man categorizes women into two groups: women he can admire and women he finds sexually attractive. Whereas the man loves women in the former category, he despises and devalues the latter group". 

"In A Handmaids Tale women are strictly categorized and forced to wear a uniform of a specified colour. Red is the [Edited Out] and blue is the Madonna. The handmaids are disrespected and violated continually and made to wear red which is associated with sex and fertility, June is objectified and abused by Fred. In contrast the wives wear blue which is reminiscent of the virgin Mary". Wives wearing blue get a lot of respect and power. 

I think there's a lot of shame and disgust attached with marriage. Married women are considered [Edited Out]s because people assume since they are married, they are doing "the act". People who chose to remain single get a lot of respect and prestige. This is most apparent in behavior of men. I have noticed whenever they are asked about love, they always mention that I love my mother, or I love my daughter. Very few men express any love for their wives. Since men use their wives for their physical needs, they are only able to give them animal love, which involves degrading or abusing but they are not able to give sacred love to their wives. This is why most married men have affairs, they have to give their sacred love to someone, and that someone needs to be a woman who is a mystery, a stranger. I have often heard stories in both eastern and western culture that a man spends months and years chasing  a woman until she agrees to sleep with him. As soon as that happens, man looses interest and respect for that woman. If one time can have such an effect, imagine how can they respect and value a woman after many times.  People suggest that men should give flowers, take their wives to dinner, and all those things we see in movies, but I don't think they are of any use. You can easily tell if a person hates you or loves you. So men can try as much as they want, the resentment and disgust they feel for their wives is apparent. If their wives can get affection from other men, they can be happy, otherwise they are miserable. 

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Sister, not all girls are treated like princesses by their parents. Until quite recently the sons were considered and treated better than daughters in indo-pak families. The situation still exists in india. 

Nor all men hate their wives. I am sure married people on the site would attest to this.  I have many friends and cousins who are happily married to men who love and cherish them. 

4 hours ago, rkazmi33 said:

not able to give sacred love to their wives.

Physical intimacy in a halal relationship(marriage) is sacred love for which the couple is promised sawab from Allah. 

Freud was ****** (insert curse word of your choice) Please don't let his theories affect your thinking. Ctrl+ D and move on.

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2 hours ago, starlight said:

Physical intimacy in a halal relationship(marriage) is sacred love for which the couple is promised sawab from Allah. 

Freud was ****** (insert curse word of your choice) Please don't let his theories affect your thinking. Ctrl+ D and move on.

I also didn't want to believe it after reading Freud's name, but I found this: "Hartmann (2009) asserts that though many of Freud’s sexual theories are now considered antiquated and sexist, his psychoanalytic notion of the Madonna-[Edited Out] complex is still quite viable and pervasive in modern sexual dynamics and gender roles". 

He was wrong about many things, but he could be right about something. I have also read that this phenomenon occurs in societies where a lot of people are sexually deprived. So it is true for Indo-pak societies. There are plenty of single people in Indo-pak and even married people live like single people after few years of marriage. It has messed up the concept of love so much. Now if you even express your hate for a man, it's considered some kind of a secret sign of love. I think women are discouraged to talk about abuse by their husbands also, because abuse is a display of animal love, and women talking about animal love is considered against the concept of "Haya" and Modesty? 

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11 hours ago, starlight said:

Freud was ****** (insert curse word of your choice) Please don't let his theories affect your thinking. Ctrl+ D and move on.

This old, rotten pervert at it again !!!!?

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Most of his theories are trash anyway. I think he tried to legitimize his own fixations by theorizing them into fancy axioms and postulates.

11 hours ago, rkazmi33 said:

"Hartmann (2009) asserts that though many of Freud’s sexual theories are now considered antiquated and sexist, his psychoanalytic notion of the Madonna-[Edited Out] complex is still quite viable and pervasive in modern sexual dynamics and gender roles". 

Could it be because this suits the current socio-political climate in the West and the Westernized, urbane post-colonial societies? That is a possibility we cannot deny, I feel.
Entire movements could come down crashing, and many 'activists' and 'movements-specialist' NGOs might find it hard to earn 2 square meals a day if it were proven wrong.

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12 hours ago, rkazmi33 said:

In A Handmaids Tale women are

Off topic but I just came to know of the existence of this show through this thread. I googled it and wanted to throw up after just skimming through the plot and people actually enjoy watching something this sick!!! Look at the ratings! Gosh! 

What's wrong with people?  Do they realise they are passively feeding this crap into their minds when they sit down to watch such show, which will later translate into actions in their lives. No wonder mental health problems are on the rise.

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51 minutes ago, starlight said:

Off topic but I just came to know of the existence of this show through this thread. I googled it and wanted to throw up after just skimming through the plot and people actually enjoy watching something this sick!!! Look at the ratings! Gosh! 

What's wrong with people?  Do they realise they are passively feeding this crap into their minds when they sit down to watch such show, which will later translate into actions in their lives. No wonder mental health problems are on the rise.

l was getting ready to wash clothes last month when something l did reminded me of some cwap stuff l read in a trashy-book in high school, fifty plus years ago.

Your correct Starlight, bad stuff does get 'stuck' permanently in our heads.

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Freud was a [edited out] I remember some of the gay perverted useless filth i learnt at school about him. 

And @starlight about that TV show, well what do you expect? The people that produce these shows are produced in factories (schools/unis) where they learnt about Freud and his sick theories, so when they come out to the world to give their 'talents' this is what you get. 

Edited by starlight

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@starlight okay i just learnt something new which they did not tell us at school... Freud was a SERIOUS cocaine addict... like super addict. He loved being high. 

Well. I suppose now we know where he got his BS theories from. I think it is outrageous how schools in the west bring up his name to young children. 

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10 minutes ago, YAli said:

@starlight okay i just learnt something new which they did not tell us at school... Freud was a SERIOUS cocaine addict... like super addict. He loved being high. 

Well. I suppose now we know where he got his BS theories from. I think it is outrageous how schools in the west bring up his name to young children. 

Actually that is a bit of a myth. He did use it for a period thought it was good but realised the effect it had and warned against it. Cocaine at the time was widely used and not well understood. A lot of nonsense is written about him. In his work he may have been wrong about lots of stuff, I dunno, I'm not a psychologist. But he broke new ground and opened up new avenues of investigation.  He was a basically a fairly regular family man and not at all the caricature is frequently portrayed.

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10 minutes ago, Klanky said:

Actually that is a bit of a myth. He did use it for a period thought it was good but realised the effect it had and warned against it. Cocaine at the time was widely used and not well understood. A lot of nonsense is written about him. In his work he may have been wrong about lots of stuff, I dunno, I'm not a psychologist. But he broke new ground and opened up new avenues of investigation.  He was a basically a fairly regular family man and not at all the caricature is frequently portrayed.

Well i don't know about you, but i just find him incredibly weird. if he can come up with theories that son is sexually attracted to his mother, and daughter to father, then i don't see him as a regular man... this is just weird. 

One thing i've noticed is that non muslims in the west who practice in this field of psychology have some strange and weird things which they come out with. I don't know how to explain it, but it hovers around the area of sexuality (incest, gay, lesbian, and other stuff). Not everyone ofcourse, but this is just something i've noticed. 

As usual, i exit this topic by saying i thank Allah so much for the PEACE and complete guidance that He has provided; Islam. 

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This seems to be all the rage these days. Concoct a hypothesis, bring sexuality in, and you are an authority on psychoanalysis. This is the guy responsible for the 'paradigm shift' in the west from victorian morality ( not acting as its apologist) to the current notions of sexual anarchy and profligacy. Any self-respecting Muslim who values his faith should have nothing to do with this follow.

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15 minutes ago, AbdusSibtayn said:

This seems to be all the rage these days. Concoct a hypothesis, bring sexuality in, and you are an authority on psychoanalysis. This is the guy responsible for the 'paradigm shift' in the west from victorian morality ( not acting as its apologist) to the current notions of sexual anarchy and profligacy. Any self-respecting Muslim who values his faith should have nothing to do with this follow.

100% spot on brother. 

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He was working in the field of psychology and working with people who presented to him with some kind of issues so it's to be expected that he would encounter and write about things that were not normal every day things

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1 hour ago, AbdusSibtayn said:

This seems to be all the rage these days. Concoct a hypothesis, bring sexuality in, and you are an authority on psychoanalysis. This is the guy responsible for the 'paradigm shift' in the west from victorian morality ( not acting as its apologist) to the current notions of sexual anarchy and profligacy. Any self-respecting Muslim who values his faith should have nothing to do with this follow.

That doesn't affect the validity or invalidity of his theories. He is undoubtedly an important figure within psychology even if he was a weirdo.

2 hours ago, YAli said:

Well i don't know about you, but i just find him incredibly weird. if he can come up with theories that son is sexually attracted to his mother, and daughter to father, then i don't see him as a regular man... this is just weird. 

One thing i've noticed is that non muslims in the west who practice in this field of psychology have some strange and weird things which they come out with. I don't know how to explain it, but it hovers around the area of sexuality (incest, gay, lesbian, and other stuff). Not everyone ofcourse, but this is just something i've noticed. 

As usual, i exit this topic by saying i thank Allah so much for the PEACE and complete guidance that He has provided; Islam. 

Prevalent modern interpretations of his work is more metaphorical, for instance  a son is not literally sexually attracted to his mother rather he wants her attention and is jealous of attention that is given to his father by the mother. So he competes with his father for said attention.

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1 hour ago, Shi3i_jadeed said:

That doesn't affect the validity or invalidity of his theories. He is undoubtedly an important figure within psychology even if he was a weirdo.

I am not criticizing his theoretical formulations on those grounds alone.Volumes have already been written in his criticism, and there is little that I as a non-specialist can add to that already voluminous and comprehensive critique.
If he is an important figure in psychology, so are Niebuhr and Ranke in historiography, but since the historical relativism introduced by E.H. Carr, and still later, in our contemporary post-modernist historiographical episteme, especially with the introduction of 'deconstruction' techniques,their methodological formulations are not accepted as uncritically as they were back in their own days. 
He merely marks an important stage in the development of the discipline of psychology and the technique of psychoanalysis. Nothing more.

 

1 hour ago, Shi3i_jadeed said:

Prevalent modern interpretations of his work is more metaphorical, for instance  a son is not literally sexually attracted to his mother rather he wants her attention and is jealous of attention that is given to his father by the mother. So he competes with his father for said attention.

Err....that doesn't explain his views on mother-fixation-

Quote

In psychoanalytic theory, the Oedipus complex refers to the child's desire for sexual involvement with the opposite sex parent, particularly a boy's erotic attention to his mother.

https://www.verywellmind.com/what-is-an-oedipal-complex-2795403

 

Even if modern-day revisionists want to sanitize and metaphoricize what is there in his writings, it is not something that Freud actually said.

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Freud is famous because he was one of the first to develop our modern idea of psychological therapy, which means talking therapy. Prior to this psychological treatment involved extreme 'medical' procedures such a labotomy, shock treatment, etc which, thank God, are not done anymore. This was his positive contribution to the field of psychology. Those other theories, stated above, have been widely discredited and are no longer talked about much except when they make it into a movie, now and then. Put sex in front of just about anything and it will attract some,attention, which is the goal for movie and tv show producers 

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8 hours ago, starlight said:

Off topic but I just came to know of the existence of this show through this thread. I googled it and wanted to throw up after just skimming through the plot and people actually enjoy watching something this sick!!! Look at the ratings! Gosh! 

What's wrong with people?  Do they realise they are passively feeding this crap into their minds when they sit down to watch such show, which will later translate into actions in their lives. No wonder mental health problems are on the rise.

I shared a video about how this show is relevant to our world. The writer said that she got inspired by things which happened in real life. I cannot share that video on shiachat, but you can find it on youtube if you type "how handmaid's tale is too real". The video has only few seconds of inappropriate scenes, but I think overall message is important. Also, I am seeing this happening. Now people are assigned colors. The try guys have opened a new channel, and in the intro, each guy is assigned a color. Blue, red, green and purple. I don't know what purple stands for, but I know that blue represents respectful wife, red represents handmaid, green represents domestic servant. This is very subtle, but think about it. It didn't happen in the past. People were not randomly associated with colors. Kids have favorite colors, but when they grow up, they like different colors. So why this sudden need to categorize people in different colors? This tradition of assigning different colors was started by Nazis. 

I am seeing this happening in my real life. There are women in my family who get a lot of respect and power. They wear blue a lot, and they will never get married. No one tells them to get married but everyone is after me to get married. Growing up, I feel like red color was forced upon me. I never liked red color, but people gave me red clothes as gift and often told me "red color is your favorite color". 

 

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20 hours ago, rkazmi33 said:

For many years, I have been confused by the treatment of married women by society and their husbands. Before marriage, girls are literally treated like princesses, and as soon as they get married, they lose their value in the eyes of society, to me it looks like they are treated like slaves. Most of the men seem to hate their wives, it's one thing to not love your wife, but most of men hate their wives, and I couldn't understand why

Are you married? 

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25 minutes ago, Ron_Burgundy said:

Are you married? 

I was, and we can debate about this but there have been countless threads on shiachat posted by married women about the abuse. You can clearly see that even in the jokes which are made about wives in our culture. Men find them hilarious but they are so offensive for women, especially married women. Most of the jokes or comedy dramas revolve around one idea: how men are annoyed by their wives, they resent their wives and they like all other women except for their wives. 

Another similarity of handmaid's tale with real life: when Nick gets married, they show that Serena is very envious of his wife because she will be able to have physical relations. I have seen this in real life, that women who don't get married are so jealous of married women and their jealousy is considered reasonable. It astonishes me so much, I think that this woman has so much power and respect, why is she feeling jealous of that worthless woman who is degraded and treated like slave and why is this kind of jealousy acceptable? 

Edited by rkazmi33

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I agree with you, that men generally do have such tendencies to treat women in a bad way, look down and emotionally abuse them.

Being a Pakistani, a lot of our jokes do revolve around degrading women. Just look at some popular Pakistani YouTubers, most of them will make jokes about how a woman has to 'clean the dishes etc'. Millions of people watch such videos, and even girls laugh at how they are being portrayed. We need to stop this culture, and teach men that women are valuable. Why are women always shown to be in the kitchen? Why are they shouted at or sent to the kitchen, in literally so many dramas. If this is "culture", then it can go straight in the trash bin.

Edited by ali_fatheroforphans

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35 minutes ago, rkazmi33 said:

 Most of the jokes or comedy dramas revolve around one idea: how men are annoyed by their wives, they resent their wives and they like all other women except for their wives. 

 

I feel like that's the opposite of American tv shows. The jokes usually revolve around the wife degrading her husband and women are portrayed as superior and more intelligent than their simple, lazy, sex-obsessed husbands.

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38 minutes ago, rkazmi33 said:

I was, and we can debate about this but there have been countless threads onshiachat posted by married women about the abuse. You can clearly see that even in the jokes which are made about wives in our culture. Men find them hilarious but they are so offensive for women, especially married women. Most of the jokes or comedy dramas revolve around one idea: how men are annoyed by their wives, they resent their wives and they like all other women except for their wives. 

1

I think it depends on a person's environment and how you parents treated their wives. Anyone who was raised like a gentleman would never treat his wife bad. 

43 minutes ago, rkazmi33 said:

Another similarity of handmaid's tale with real life: when Nick gets married, they show that Serena is very envious of his wife because she will be able to have physical relations. I have seen this in real life, that women who don't get married are so jealous of married women and their jealousy is considered reasonable. It astonishes me so much, I think that this woman has so much power and respect, why is she feeling jealous of that worthless woman who is degraded and treated like slave and why is this kind of jealousy acceptable? 

A couple of days ago I was talking to my wife and I said you know women are women's worst enemies. They could never see each other happy. 

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36 minutes ago, Sumerian said:

Don't know who this guy is, but it sounds like he used to look at his mother in a strange way and then wanted to project that on everyone else so he doesn't think he's the only one.

This guy seems creepy. 

Who Freud? 

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On 6/17/2018 at 2:59 PM, rkazmi33 said:

I think there's a lot of shame and disgust attached with marriage. Married women are considered [Edited Out]s because people assume since they are married, they are doing "the act". People who chose to remain single get a lot of respect and prestige. This is most apparent in behavior of men. I have noticed whenever they are asked about love, they always mention that I love my mother, or I love my daughter. Very few men express any love for their wives. Since men use their wives for their physical needs, they are only able to give them animal love, which involves degrading or abusing but they are not able to give sacred love to their wives. This is why most married men have affairs, they have to give their sacred love to someone, and that someone needs to be a woman who is a mystery, a stranger. I have often heard stories in both eastern and western culture that a man spends months and years chasing  a woman until she agrees to sleep with him. As soon as that happens, man looses interest and respect for that woman. If one time can have such an effect, imagine how can they respect and value a woman after many times.  People suggest that men should give flowers, take their wives to dinner, and all those things we see in movies, but I don't think they are of any use. You can easily tell if a person hates you or loves you. So men can try as much as they want, the resentment and disgust they feel for their wives is apparent. If their wives can get affection from other men, they can be happy, otherwise they are miserable. 

I actually think the complete opposite. Unmarried women are more so degraded than married women in my opinion, especially in our cultures. Unmarried women are prized more if they are more obedient, dress more modestly, talk less/ are less "mouthy" , if they're smart etc. Also, unmarried women are almost like commodities to be passed from father to groom. (I'm generalising ALOT here and I'm looking at worst case scenario, I know it's not that bad in all parts of the world). And married women are valued more in my opinion, because they're essentially bringing up and raising the future generations, so I don't get how this relates to the Madonna-W complex. I don't think that the change in the way women aren't treated before and after marriage is that drastic, unless it's in a third world, extremely sexist country. 

Edited by Hameedeh
Excessively long quote was shortened in length.

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11 hours ago, starlight said:

Off topic but I just came to know of the existence of this show through this thread. I googled it and wanted to throw up after just skimming through the plot and people actually enjoy watching something this sick!!! Look at the ratings! Gosh! 

What's wrong with people?  Do they realise they are passively feeding this crap into their minds when they sit down to watch such show, which will later translate into actions in their lives. No wonder mental health problems are on the rise.

Again, off-topic but why don't you like it?? Ive only seen a few episodes but I don't see why it would cause mental health problems. In my opinion, it gives an important message about society, and the way the society in the Handmaids Tale does kinda mirror the discriminatory beliefs that the likes of Isis are founded upon.

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1 hour ago, Amira00 said:

Again, off-topic but why don't you like it

You answered your own question in the last line Handmaids Tale does kinda mirror the discriminatory beliefs that the likes of Isis are founded upon.

A woman cutting her own ear off, another has her eyeball taken out, women forced to work as slaves, raped, mutilated, it's very disturbing and unhealthy to watch. Watching such things over the years gradually desensitizes one to violence, in this case violence against women. 

'Neurocinematics' is an emerging field which focuses on the chemical changes in the brain in response to different genres of movies. 

The effects of horror movies in altering the brain chemistry are pretty well documented. I don't know if there have been any studies on dystopian cinema but I am sure the outcomes are pretty obvious. 

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1 hour ago, starlight said:

You answered your own question in the last line Handmaids Tale does kinda mirror the discriminatory beliefs that the likes of Isis are founded upon.

A woman cutting her own ear off, another has her eyeball taken out, women forced to work as slaves, raped, mutilated, it's very disturbing and unhealthy to watch. Watching such things over the years gradually desensitizes one to violence, in this case violence against women. 

'Neurocinematics' is an emerging field which focuses on the chemical changes in the brain in response to different genres of movies. 

The effects of horror movies in altering the brain chemistry are pretty well documented. I don't know if there have been any studies on dystopian cinema but I am sure the outcomes are pretty obvious. 

I agree, it may desensitise people to such violence, but isn't it better to open conversation about this? 

Women in Isis and other cults are victimised in the same way, but people hardly ever talk about it. These women need help. Yes, maybe the way they're depicting it is too gory and vivid but nonetheless, it's  raising awareness. It presents the captive slaves of Isis and other cults as more human and real, rather just some fictional unimportant beings. 

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@Amira00 It's one thing to discuss the things being done by ISIS and another thing to make a hit TV show based on these practices. 

If the point is just to discuss such inhumane practices it can be done with the use of documentaries and lectures rather than a more glossy medium like a drama.  

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2 hours ago, Amira00 said:

I actually think the complete opposite. Unmarried women are more so degraded than married women in my opinion, especially in our cultures. Unmarried women are prized more if they are more obedient, dress more modestly, talk less/ are less "mouthy" , if they're smart etc. Also, unmarried women are almost like commodities to be passed from father to groom. (I'm generalising ALOT here and I'm looking at worst case scenario, I know it's not that bad in all parts of the world). And married women are valued more in my opinion, because they're essentially bringing up and raising the future generations, so I don't get how this relates to the Madonna-W complex. I don't think that the change in the way women aren't treated before and after marriage is that drastic, unless it's in a third world, extremely sexist country. 

I don't know it may be a middle class thing. In my community, people actually feel proud that women are pampered so much before marriage, and they deal with such harsh conditions after marriage. My mother was pampered a lot before marriage, but her life was really hard after marriage. Now whenever I try to help her in house-work, she tell me if you want to help me, get married. She became very strict with me when I was married, and she is cold-hearted towards my married sister. Whenever I mention her problems, she always says, no she is living a very good life, she has no problem, everything is fine. I don't agree with this thinking. I think if you pamper a person, it will become harder for that person to deal with hardships. 

You would think that women should be valued more because they are bringing up and raising future generations. But that's what's strange about handmaid's tale also, handmaids are the most valuable resources, still they are degraded and abused the most. I even heard a  comment from a woman, that you are considered a child until  you get married. As soon as you get married, you are considered an adult. 

Edited by rkazmi33

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4 hours ago, ali_fatheroforphans said:

I agree with you, that men generally do have such tendencies to treat women in a bad way, look down and emotionally abuse them.

Being a Pakistani, a lot of our jokes do revolve around degrading women. Just look at some popular Pakistani YouTubers, most of them will make jokes about how a woman has to 'clean the dishes etc'. Millions of people watch such videos, and even girls laugh at how they are being portrayed. We need to stop this culture, and teach men that women are valuable. Why are women always shown to be in the kitchen? Why are they shouted at or sent to the kitchen, in literally so many dramas. If this is "culture", then it can go straight in the trash bin.

This is so true. Jokes degrading wives especially are so common. I grew up listening to that humor and until I got married, I never realized how offensive and hurtful all those jokes are. Now, it's so hard for me to listen to them. I agree even women on facebook share such offensive jokes about wives, I just want to ask them: you are a woman yourself, why do you think this is funny? 

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17 hours ago, rkazmi33 said:

This is so true. Jokes degrading wives especially are so common. I grew up listening to that humor and until I got married, I never realized how offensive and hurtful all those jokes are. Now, it's so hard for me to listen to them. I agree even women on facebook share such offensive jokes about wives, I just want to ask them: you are a woman yourself, why do you think this is funny? 

As I said earlier it's all about how you were raised if you saw your parents as lovebirds than most probably you will be a loving husband or wife as well. And jokes are jokes you don't take them to heart. If someone thinks they are offensive you don't joke with them, but if you are comfortable with each other then it doesn't matter. 

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