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shiasoldier786

Israel Gaza Conflict

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5 hours ago, coldcow said:

Still though, Islam teaches that children are innocent until at least the age of puberty, right?  You're telling me that the children (literal children, not figurative) in Isreal deserve to die for the sins of their parents and grand parents?

No ,everybody must punish related to his/her sin .if someone from Jews of Israel really against their Regime ,they will not punish because of It.

But they live there ilegaly &their Regime brainwashs they from childhood  i don't have hope when they become pubert , remain innocent. 

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1 hour ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

No ,everybody must punish related to his/her sin .if someone from Jews of Israel really against their Regime ,they will not punish because of It.

But they live there ilegaly &their Regime brainwashs they from childhood  i don't have hope when they become pubert , remain innocent. 

As much as I despise the Israeli government, killing children is never acceptable. Because judging by the logic you're using all children that lived in Mosul when ISIS was around were legitimate targets because they'd just grow up to join ISIS then. 

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7 hours ago, coldcow said:

I'm not following.  You're saying what Netanyahu says today has bearing on what the 1948 Jews agreed to?

Yes, it does. He says and it seems the local population agrees with him (if we accept that Israel is a democracy) that an undivided Jerusalem is the eternal capital of their state. OK. And it seems from today's geo-politics that that is where we are headed.

But I am surprised you can't see the inconsistency between the above position and the much more modest claims the Zionists had over Jerusalem when Israel was founded.

Either today's Zionists are mistaken in their claims or those of 1948 were lying and the local Arabs were perfectly right to be suspicious.

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8 minutes ago, Mohamed1993 said:

killing children is never acceptable. Because judging

I'm against killing innocent child but what I said is that their Regime rises them in this way &they have no choice  after puberty they are completely brainwashed if a Jew is reaky against them must not live in Israel & allow them to brainwash their innocent children.

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11 hours ago, coldcow said:

How do we know she's the one that killer her?  It seems very unlikely that this would be make public knowledge.  Also, supposedly the Israelis are using snipers.  She doesn't look like a sniper, and she's not holding a sniper rifle.

It seems you missed the entire point. 

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12 hours ago, Khadim uz Zahra said:

Except, apart from maybe a very few, none of the Shi'a leaders or scholars are asking for the physical obliteration of Israel in its entirety, certainly not its occupants. No one's saying let's kill everyone in Israel; the general position among the most extreme anti-Israel members on this forum is that the state of Israel should not exist, as a political entity. That's very different from let's kill everyone in the country. Thus, I find it ironic that you claim to believe in integrity and, yet, suggest that people who oppose the policies of the state of Israel want to kill all the left-wing Jews in Israel who are against Israeli atrocities - or that they want to kill any Jews for that matter. If integrity is what you seek, I suggest you find some yourself before advising others on their lack of it.

Indeed, you talk of integrity and, yet, you bring up the obliteration of Israel in a post about a nurse being killed. Did Forte's post mention anything about destroying the state of Israel or keeping it around? He criticised the action of its army and that's it. Why are you, then, asking him questions which suggest he wants everyone in that country to be killed when he never even referenced the issue?

Multiple people here have claimed Israel needs to wiped out.  They didn't say the zionists within Israel, some have even alluded to the children within Israel not being innocent in this.  There are multiple other posts on the forum where people call for war and anhilation of Israel.  And I don't know how to wipe out just Israel as a political entity without destroying much of it and the people within it.  But again, not sure if you posted it or someone else, please post a quote from the Qu'ran, or even the hadiths, that state my position is "against the religion."  I do not support Israel or what they are doing, I'm merely providing more context and opposing thoughts to make some of you think about your positions.

And I'm responding to multiple posts at once, please re-read my post, as well as the sentences before and after the ones you're referring to, and maybe even other posts I'm responding to, and then re-read his post.  I think context will give you a better idea of why I said what I said.  Maybe it wasn't specifically related to what he said, but maybe part of my overall thoughts I'm sharing.

12 hours ago, forte said:

You need to do a lot more research.  There are thousands upon thousands of videos, pictures, independent eye witness accounts, world court and human rights organizations reports and condemnations that for some reason you choose to ignore.  The entire world community consistently condemns Israel for its war crimes and consistently breaking international law. Palestinians don't literally want to wipe Israel off the map.  If they wanted to they would not have gone to the negotiating table to support a two state settlement which is backed by the entire world community.  

The five year old was probably throwing rocks at their armoured vehicles.  He was really small and could not do much more - but what does it matter what he did - he was a baby.    

What am I ignoring?  I'm pointing out that the picture of "Rebecca" being labeled as the sniper that shot the Palestinian medic doesn't make sense.  There are plenty of Palestinians and other Arabs that literally want to wipe Israel of the Map.  I know there are some that try and say "oh, no, they mean just the zionist regime, not actually wipe out Israel."  But even if that's true, that they just want Israel to change names to Palestine and for everyone to get equal rights again, past experiences show us that whenever Muslims go back into a place as a 'conqueror' if you will, they exact mob justice.  Remember when the militias took back Iraqi villages from ISIS?  They tied people up by their feet and dragged their bodies behind trucks.  

So, actions have consequences, right?  I'm not saying it was right, but throwing rocks at people is probably against the law.  If the soldiers let a 5 year old keep throwing rocks, it reinforces in him  that he  can get away with it, and he'll get bigger and older and throw larger rocks.  And his friends will throw larger rocks as well.  I'm not saying it's right, but it's not like he was just minding his own business and got dragged away.

9 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

No ,everybody must punish related to his/her sin .if someone from Jews of Israel really against their Regime ,they will not punish because of It.

But they live there ilegaly &their Regime brainwashs they from childhood  i don't have hope when they become pubert , remain innocent. 

What about the Jews that lived in Israel before 1940's?  And their descendents?  Are they living there illegaly as well?  Some were middle eastern jews, some bought land from Palestinians who happily sold it.

7 hours ago, Haji 2003 said:

Yes, it does. He says and it seems the local population agrees with him (if we accept that Israel is a democracy) that an undivided Jerusalem is the eternal capital of their state. OK. And it seems from today's geo-politics that that is where we are headed.

But I am surprised you can't see the inconsistency between the above position and the much more modest claims the Zionists had over Jerusalem when Israel was founded.

Either today's Zionists are mistaken in their claims or those of 1948 were lying and the local Arabs were perfectly right to be suspicious.

First off, very few countries are true democracies.  We call them that, but the reality is that majority seldom rules.  The majority elects representatives that rule, while may or may not at various points truly reflect the majority opinion.  Additionally, all that's required for a democracy to take an action is 51% of the population to agree with him.  But I'm getting into semantics here.

So, I'd describe as what Netanyahu said as changing goal posts.  I don't know what the original founders of Israel had in their heads, and we can only speculate.  Remember, the Arabs never accepted the original borders of the the UN mandate for Israel.  In retrospect I'm sure they wish they did, but if one side didn't accept the terms, the other side doesn't really need to accept it either.  At least that's how most treaties/contracts work.

3 hours ago, Abu Hadi said:

It seems you missed the entire point. 

I don't think so.  I know the point they were trying to make.  Just seems odd to literally say that this one girls is the one who murdered the other when it's doubtful for many reasons.

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43 minutes ago, coldcow said:

What am I ignoring?  I'm pointing out that the picture of "Rebecca" being labeled as the sniper that shot the Palestinian medic doesn't make sense.  There are plenty of Palestinians and other Arabs that literally want to wipe Israel of the Map.  I know there are some that try and say "oh, no, they mean just the zionist regime, not actually wipe out Israel."  But even if that's true, that they just want Israel to change names to Palestine and for everyone to get equal rights again, (1)  past experiences show us that whenever Muslims go back into a place as a 'conqueror' if you will, they exact mob justice.  Remember when the militias took back Iraqi villages from ISIS?  They tied people up by their feet and dragged their bodies behind trucks.  

So, actions have consequences, right?  I'm not saying it was right, but throwing rocks at people is probably against the law.  (2) If the soldiers let a 5 year old keep throwing rocks, it reinforces in him  that he  can get away with it, and he'll get bigger and older and throw larger rocks.  And his friends will throw larger rocks as well.  I'm not saying it's right, but it's not like he was just minding his own business and got dragged away.

Reframing what you said:

(1) You have to keep Muslims down and in a subservient positions so that the Israelis can be free and unencumbered to do what they do best.... because we all know that Muslims are thugs and will resort to mob violence..... not just in this situation but in other places around the world as well. 

(2) There is legitimacy to terrorizing and injuring (perhaps killing - who knows what they do to him once he is no longer in the range of a camera) an unarmed five year old child.

You speak of integrity but have absolutely no knowledge of what it is or what it means.  

(1)  Targeting anyone for murder - state sanctioned cold blooded deliberate murder - is reprehensible and, again, against international law.  It is a war crime and it is a hate crime. Going off on some tangent about how you think others think this way or that does not deflect from this.  She is not the first person targeted - nor will she be the last.  As the IDF acts with impunity.

(2)  If you think terrorizing, beating and perhaps killing a small child for political purposes has any gain for whatever that regime stands for - you are greatly mistaken.  If they allow him to live (but you can kill a 5 year old pretty easily), he will be their enemy forever - along with his family and anyone else that witnessed that. Just your intention to legitimize such a cowardly act by several heavily armed men dressed in military protective gear as they get pleasure from hurting a small, thickly-dressed child says a lot about you.  

Edited by forte

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37 minutes ago, coldcow said:

Remember, the Arabs never accepted the original borders of the the UN mandate for Israel.  In retrospect I'm sure they wish they did, but if one side didn't accept the terms, the other side doesn't really need to accept it either.  At least that's how most treaties/contracts work.

Why should they have agreed? Why would they now wish that they had agreed?

Remember we are now told that a united Jerusalem for Jews for eternity is God's plan. Somehow I don't think the people who believe this would think any differently if the Arabs had agreed to the mandate borders.

Those mandate borders were just a starting point. Like all European 18th/19th century colonial projects you start small and then you expand. 

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Ready for freedomestic of Palestine? | Shaykh Mansour Leghaei (Islamic Pulse)  

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5 hours ago, Haji 2003 said:

Why should they have agreed? Why would they now wish that they had agreed?

 Remember we are now told that a united Jerusalem for Jews for eternity is God's plan. Somehow I don't think the people who believe this would think any differently if the Arabs had agreed to the mandate borders.

Those mandate borders were just a starting point. Like all European 18th/19th century colonial projects you start small and then you expand. 

I'm not saying they should have agreed.  But if they didn't want to agree, they shouldn't have lost.  I'm fairly sure that now, living in severe poverty, under constant threat to lose more land/homes, living like animals in a cage, the thought at least crosses their mind about what things would be like if the 1948 borders were still in place, and two states existed.

6 hours ago, forte said:

Reframing what you said:

(1) You have to keep Muslims down and in a subservient positions so that the Israelis can be free and unencumbered to do what they do best.... because we all know that Muslims are thugs and will resort to mob violence..... not just in this situation but in other places around the world as well. 

(2) There is legitimacy to terrorizing and injuring (perhaps killing - who knows what they do to him once he is no longer in the range of a camera) an unarmed five year old child.

You speak of integrity but have absolutely no knowledge of what it is or what it means.  

(1)  Targeting anyone for murder - state sanctioned cold blooded deliberate murder - is reprehensible and, again, against international law.  It is a war crime and it is a hate crime. Going off on some tangent about how you think others think this way or that does not deflect from this.  She is not the first person targeted - nor will she be the last.  As the IDF acts with impunity.

(2)  If you think terrorizing, beating and perhaps killing a small child for political purposes has any gain for whatever that regime stands for - you are greatly mistaken.  If they allow him to live (but you can kill a 5 year old pretty easily), he will be their enemy forever - along with his family and anyone else that witnessed that. Just your intention to legitimize such a cowardly act by several heavily armed men dressed in military protective gear as they get pleasure from hurting a small, thickly-dressed child says a lot about you.  

Well, no.  I think you're suggesting I don't have integrity because I support the actions of the IDF.  I could break down the use/meaning of the word integrity in that context, but I think you're reading into my words what you want to see, and not what I mean.  I could be wrong, but I think you and most people on this board see things in black and white.  Either someone supports Israel, all its actions, everythign it does, is for the wiping out of Palestinians, and killing of arabs, or they're the opposite - supporting a single state Palestine that encompasses all of where Israel now is.  The reality is I do not support lots of things the Israelis do, nor do I support lots of things the Palestinians do.  I don't pick sides because I'm Muslim, I don't let my faith, or my support of the Palestinians cloud my judgement.  I merely call things as I see it.  

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8 hours ago, coldcow said:

Multiple people here have claimed Israel needs to wiped out.

 

Who, exactly? In your pursuit of integrity and truth, did you actually ask what they meant by it? Did they mean they want to kill every living being in Israel or did you just come up with it yourself? I imagine you're now going to quote Ahmadenijad, and that was most definitely a misquote and a mistranslation.

They didn't say the zionists within Israel, some have even alluded to the children within Israel not being innocent in this. 

Who? Where? Ashvazdanghe? Let's look at what he said before you brought up this insane idea that he blames the children in Israel for the actions of the government:

Quote

everybody that lives in Israel from Jews [and] is not against their tyrannic regime

Now, his English may not be perfect and I had to add the 'and' to make it clearer, but it was pretty obvious he didn't say everyone who lives in Israel. He added the stipulation that they must also refrain from opposing their tyrannical government in order to be responsible. He said all this from the beginning. So, did you simply not read his posts or are you intentionally misquoting his posts and cherry-picking what he says? He had already made the necessary specifications in his original post so where you even got the idea that he blames all Israelis certainly confuses me, unless you're intentionally lying.

Even if you misunderstood, he further clarified in two posts 10 hours and 8 hours before your reply to me that he did not mean what you understood. He clearly stated that he doesn't believe the children are responsible. So, once again, did you just not read his reply or did you willfully ignore his explanation?

There are multiple other posts on the forum where people call for war and anhilation of Israel.  But again, not sure if you posted it or someone else, please post a quote from the Qu'ran, or even the hadiths, that state my position is "against the religion."  I do not support Israel or what they are doing, I'm merely providing more context and opposing thoughts to make some of you think about your positions.

Well, if they're killing civilians right, left and centre, are you really surprised that people are calling for war? Maybe some of them are being rash and far too enthusiastic in their war cries but that's all they are: war cries. Yet, you cry havoc over their opinions, while disregarding the actual actions of the IDF in which they shoot nearly 3,000 people in a single day. What's worse, exactly: war cries or war crimes? You claim you don't support their actions and maybe you are being honest about that but in every war, there are casualties on both sides, some of which may even be unjustified. The Palestinians are not all angels and have committed some atrocities as well, sure. However, there is always a clear aggressor; choosing to focus on the few crimes of the oppressed and using those to justify the wholesale slaughter of the oppressors is taking a side, and the side you're taking is the oppressors'. I don't think I need to remind you of what the Qur'an says about oppressors.

I think all we need to see your state of mind is the fact that you had the audacity to ask: what did the 5-year-old do? Even if he was throwing rocks, how hard can he throw rocks in the first place? You make excuses for the IDF soldiers apparently 'terrorising and dragging a 5-year-old', according to what Forte posted, by providing the context that he'll grow up to think throwing rocks is okay. So, you think a 5-year-old should be punished for what he may, or may not, do when he grows up? According to Forte, he wasn't even throwing rocks at the soldiers but, rather, their armoured vehicles. How heartless do you have to be to say that throwing rocks at a tank justifies dragging a 5-year-old in the street?

And while you contextualise the actions of the IDF for pages and pages, where's the contextualisation for the actions of the 5-year-old? Where's the mention of the fact that his family members were probably killed or imprisoned by the IDF? Throwing rocks is a good enough justification for you to drag the 5-year-old. What do you think murdering your brother or your father justifies? Certainly more than rocks but you even object to that. Where's the mention of the fact children in Gaza are literally being poisoned by the very water they drink, and Israel is to blame for that. What does intentional poisoning of 1 million children justify? What does the intentional starvation of 2 million Gazans justify? Israel is occupying the Palestinian people and while they may have, at times, retaliated with civilian attacks unfortunately, as far as I'm concerned, anyone throwing rocks at the soldiers and military infrastructure of an oppressive force is a hero and a freedom fighter. As the famous quote goes, "One man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter" and that most certainly applies to that little kid. Yet, you ignore his reasoning entirely and take the side of grown men terrorising a child. Need I say any more?

Once again, please find me someone who says annihilation of Israel means killing every person in the country, instead of just meaning that the country shouldn't exist. I actually don't agree with that point of view and think a two-state solution is now the way to go but even among the most extreme anti-Israelis, I've never heard anyone say the entire population of Israel should be killed so, please, show me where on this forum people are saying that.

It seems to me you're coming up with imaginary positions for us - that we want to kill everyone in Israel, or that we think that Israeli children are guilty for the crimes of their government - and telling us to rethink these imaginary positions that none of us actually hold.

Edited by Khadim uz Zahra

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Long post, I think a lot of it is repetitive, so I'll try and address just what I think you're trying to get at. 

No, I have not seen a post saying every man woman and child in Israel should be killed.  But I regularly see posts blaming "the Jews" instead of "the zionists."   And then when people write something like this" 

"Iran is waiting for Israel regime to start the war. Iran and Iranians would be very happy to wipe out Israel regime from earth and give those lands to Palestinians.

 Wish me become martyr in wiping out Israel"

It really sounds like in their mind they don't plan on focusing on just the government of Israel.  Of course I could be misreading it.  I don't think anyone, save for a few extremists, would publicly admit to an unIslamic position here (such as killing children as part of collateral damage).  Just like many wouldn't admit to supporting the suicide bombings that killed women and children and led to the building of the wall.  

And sure, desperation leads to desperate actions.  I understand that.  Sometimes that desperation can be a 5 year old throwing rocks.  But it's still, I'm assuming, against the law over there to throw rocks at soldiers (although if this is the incident I just googled, the child wasn't dragged by soldiers but his hand was held by a relative as they were both asked to enter an Isreali military vehicle - https://sikhsiyasat.net/2014/09/23/arrest-of-5-year-old-palestinian-child-causes-outrage-around-globe/).  Were their actions heavy handed, sure, was it the right approach to take with a 5 year old, probably not, but the kid still broke the law.  Getting off topic, but at what age does it become ok to arrest someone for throwing rocks at someone else's property?  Actions have consequences.  Like starting a war you aren't prepared to win.  

So, let's say I'm completely wrong, and not a single person here is happy when a Palestinian suicide bomber kills Israeli civilians (that some here say are complicit in the actions of the Israeli government - whatever that's supposed to mean), words have meaning.  Projecting the idea that we want to "wipe out Israel*" with an asterisk, and only in the fine print saying that we actually mean just hte zionist regime and we don't want to harm any civilians, doesn't do us any good.  All it does is provide more propaganda for the Israelis to use to get more money and weapons from the US, and more sympathy from other countries when they say they have to do things that we don't like.

I support the Palestinians.  I was happy when Syria shot down an Israeli jet.  I was disappointed when Iran's/Syria's rocket attack on the Golan heights turned into an embarrassment.  If you, or anyone else here, doesn't believe me, that's ok.  I get no benefit from you believing me or disbelieving me.

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7 minutes ago, shiasoldier786 said:

 

Kites are the new form of resistance

I suspect the Palestinians will already be paying for it, since they're usually the labor that works they land, they no longer have jobs until it regrows.  Or maybe they'll have more jobs cleaning up and replanting.

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4 hours ago, coldcow said:

"Iran is waiting for Israel regime to start the war. Iran and Iranians would be very happy to wipe out Israel regime from earth and give those lands to Palestinians.

 Wish me become martyr in wiping out Israel"

 

Watch from 1:20 to get some context as to who really wants to wipe who out.

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2 hours ago, coldcow said:

 

 

Since missed a rather important question because my post was long, can you please answer me as to whether you misunderstood Ashvazdanghe's post or simply misrepresented it? Did you read the explanations he wrote or did you not? If you misunderstood what he said, perhaps admitting you made a mistake and apologising to him for suggesting that he believes Israeli children should die would be a good start in helping us believe that we are, perhaps, misunderstanding you. You can't accuse someone of wanting to kill children, and then just not apologise if it turns out to not be true.

I believe this was a short enough, and focused enough, post for you to answer. I'll answer the rest of your post later since I don't want you to miss this question among other points.

Edited by Khadim uz Zahra

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39 minutes ago, Khadim uz Zahra said:

Since missed a rather important question because my post was long, can you please answer me as to whether you misunderstood Ashvazdanghe's post or simply misrepresented it? Did you read the explanations he wrote or did you not? If you misunderstood what he said, perhaps admitting you made a mistake and apologising to him for suggesting that he believes Israeli children should die would be a good start in helping us believe that we are, perhaps, misunderstanding you. You can't accuse someone of wanting to kill children, and then just not apologise if it turns out to not be true.

I believe this was a short enough, and focused enough, post for you to answer. I'll answer the rest of your post later since I don't want you to miss this question among other points.

Sorry I missed the question.  Looking back, however, it would appear I'm not the only one that was confused as to what he mean't, as Muhammed1993 also quoted him and said that killing children is never acceptable.  Because if you read his post, it makes it sound like killing innocent children isn't acceptable, but soon enough they won't be innocent.

He then went further to suggest they may be innocent before puberty, but it's inevitable that they will become brainwashed [to become a zionist].  

Also, I don't think I ever accused him of wanting to kill children.  If you go back to the first post where I mention children and trace it back, it is in response to Amirulmunineen lover who said Israel needs to be wiped out.  To him I said that saying that makes him sound genocidal.   Furthermore, I didn't accuse him of wanting to kill children, I said that I hope he doesn't want to kill children based off his words of wanting to wipe out Israel.  And then me and him had a little back and forth hypothetical where children came up several times.

I think Ashvazdanghe may have chimed in somewhere in there and someone mentioned that any generation supporting the regime is the same as the soldiers, to which I stated something to the effect of "do the children deserve to die for the sins of their parents"?  Perhaps that's where the miscommuncation/misunderstanding was that you are referring to?  But again, I'm not the only one who misinterpreted one of his posts.

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Well, you didn't accuse him of it but you don't go up to a random person and say, "You do know killing a man is a bad deed, right?" unless you believe the man's contemplating murder. You literally said this:

You're telling me that the children (literal children, not figurative) in Isreal deserve to die for the sins of their parents and grand parents?

Are you now going to tell me you didn't think he meant that children deserve to die? Also, there's some degree of common sense that's involved in these discussions, no? I have referred to 'Israeli' atrocities in all my past posts but one-day-old babies are also Israelis. Does that mean I believe a newborn is responsible for anything at all? Does that mean I also blame the left-wing Israelis who actually condemn their own government? He clearly stipulated that he blamed those who don't oppose Israel and, even if he didn't, common sense dictates that children are generally held to not be responsible. In such a case, you would normally assume that the person abides by common sense, and not immediately assume the worst of them.

Then, there's the fact that, yes, he did say that as they become older, they'll likely be brainwashed. Well, that's not really very surprising. Someone who grows up in a Zionist household will learn Zionst ideals, just as a child in an Islamic or secular family will learn those values. It's a far stretch from stating a basic fact about how society works to understanding that he believes children in Israel are at fault or deserve to die.

Even in the post which you mentioned Mohamed1993 as quoting, he clearly states: "  i don't have hope when they become pubert , remain innocent." "Remain innocent" alone implies that he believes they are currently innocent. Maybe it's his poor grasp of English grammar but I would suggest you refrain from assuming the worst.

I will agree, however, with you that need to be more precise in the language we use. If I misunderstood you, may God forgive me.

Regarding your earlier post,

As for the 5-year-old problem, sure, throwing rocks is illegal and actions have consequences. However, violence is also illegal but fighting oppressors is your paramount duty in Islam. The oppressors will, of course, claim the 'rebels' are breaking the law but that's because the oppressors deserve to be punished because they were, in fact, the ones who committed crimes and oppressed innocents first. In this conflict, one side is clearly the oppressor. You can't expect the Palestinians to just sit back and agree to being poisoned and starved so as far as hostilities against the IDF go, they have a right to fight. Thus, even if throwing rocks at the IDF is illegal, I say more power to those throwing rocks at those heartless and brutal soldiers. King's video shows the murderous intent of Israel quite well. Thus, I don't see why you feel the need to defend the soldiers' actions or explain them.

And if you retort with the suggestion that Palestinians should instead focus on peace, they have tried multiple times in the last 2 decades, haven't they? Israel has always been the side which hinders the peace process or outright sabotages it. What else do they have left except to go back to their resistance, as weak as it is?

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7 hours ago, coldcow said:

the thought at least crosses their mind about what things would be like if the 1948 borders were still in place, and two states existed.

Do you honestly believe that God promised the land of Israel to the Jews with the proviso that Jewish access to the wailing wall would be in the hands of the Jordanians? That's the position of the 1948 borders.

They make no sense. Unless from the Zionist perspective they were only an opening gambit.

Although I disagree with Netanyahu and the settlers at least their position is consistent. If Israel exists based on promises made by God, then Jerusalem should be its undivided capital. But even today that seems a land grab too far - given the international reaction to the American embassy.

But you can see the direction of travel.

And in time the Europeans will come round to the view that if you think Jerusalem should not be the undivided capital of Israel, you are anti-semitic.

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18 hours ago, Abu Hadi said:

Brothers and sisters, just getting angry won't do our brothers and sisters in Palestine any good. 

Here are two thing you can do immediately. 

1) https://bdsmovement.net/

Boycott, Divest, Sanction movement. Get involved in a campaign. 

2) Quds Day

Quds Day is coming up this Friday, June 8. I encourage all brothers and sisters who are able to participate to go, and be enthusiastic and non violent. I would say for Brothers and Sisters living in the US especially , it is very important that you show up because Trump & Haley are trying to paint a picture that you, as Americans, support the Zionist regime and their policy of indiscriminate slaughter of innocents. I know you don't, but in order to prove them wrong, you need to show up. Brothers and Sisters, please, please get the word out thru your own networks. Your non muslims friends and collegues who are interested in Justice are also welcome. 

Here is the info from Muslim Congress Website, I Think this is the most accurate. List of cities, times for Quds Day March for US/Canada

Chicago   4:39-6:30 500 W Madison St, Ogilvie Train Station
Dallas   1:30-4:30 411 Elm Street, Dallas
Detroit   4:00-6:00 Detroit Henry Centennial Library
Boston   4:00-6:00 Copley Square, Downtown
Atlanta   4:00-5:30 CNN Center
Sacramento   4:30-6:30 16th St & J St, Downtown Sacramento
Los Angeles   5:00-7:00 Holt Ave & Garey Ave, Pomona
Seattle   4:00-6:00 4th St & Pine St, Downtown
Orlando   6:00-8:00 Lake Eola Park
Portland   4:00-5:30 Pioneer Courthouse Square
Salt Lake City   6:00-8:00 Public Safety Building, 475 S. 300 E
Durham   6:00-8:00 Gregson & Main St, Durham
San Francisco   3:30-5:00 Stevens Creek & Winchester, San Jose
Washington D.C.   3:00-6:00 DuPont Circle
Tampa   5:30-7:00 56th St & E Fowler Ave, Tampa

In Canada:
Toronto   Sat 3:00 Queens Park
Calgary   5:00-6:30 City Hall

http://muslimcongress.org/wp/quds/

Brothers and Sister who live in other cities, please post links. 

(Note, for the Detroit one, there is a small error, it's Henry Ford Centennial Library, in Dearborn, not Detroit. Most people who live in the area probably already caught this mistake but just FYI). 

If Brothers and Sisters could please post times / dates for UK / Australia & other countries. 

Salam. Thank you, Brother. In the past I noticed that the Quds Day rally in London was held on a Saturday, so if anyone has info about London, please mention the date, time and place. 

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If Israel annexes Gaza and the West Bank, then it will have to give citzenship and equal rights to the Arab population or it will be considered an absolute apartheid state. However, if it does give citzenship and equal rights to its Arab population in the case it does annex the West Bank and Gaza, it will risk the "Jewishness" of the "state", as the Arab will either be a majority or a significant minority (above 40% of the population) - without including the Palestinian refugees. 

Conclusion is: Israel needs to keep the status quo going, which is freezing the two-state solution and not risking a one state solution which will risk ending it as a "Jewish state".

Would you agree? @coldcow

Edited by Sumerian

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The world is funny;

They say Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran and Syria want to wipe Israel off the map so they are bad. Israel is literally wiping out Palestine with literal actions, and they are somehow a victim. Unfortunately when people listen to chants they show on the media and don't care to read facts, this is what happens. I actually believe we should have a test when people go to voting booths, the problem here would be how you control for things like poverty, which may affect people's ignorance, rather than just sitting there doing nothing half the time and watching Fox News thinking you know what's up. A true democracy involves an educated population, you just do not have that in the US.

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10 hours ago, Sumerian said:

If Israel annexes Gaza and the West Bank, then it will have to give citzenship and equal rights to the Arab population or it will be considered an absolute apartheid state. However, if it does give citzenship and equal rights to its Arab population in the case it does annex the West Bank and Gaza, it will risk the "Jewishness" of the "state", as the Arab will either be a majority or a significant minority (above 40% of the population) - without including the Palestinian refugees. 

Conclusion is: Israel needs to keep the status quo going, which is freezing the two-state solution and not risking a one state solution which will risk ending it as a "Jewish state".

Would you agree? @coldcow

100% agree

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14 hours ago, Khadim uz Zahra said:

Well, you didn't accuse him of it but you don't go up to a random person and say, "You do know killing a man is a bad deed, right?" unless you believe the man's contemplating murder. You literally said this:

You're telling me that the children (literal children, not figurative) in Isreal deserve to die for the sins of their parents and grand parents?

Are you now going to tell me you didn't think he meant that children deserve to die? Also, there's some degree of common sense that's involved in these discussions, no? I have referred to 'Israeli' atrocities in all my past posts but one-day-old babies are also Israelis. Does that mean I believe a newborn is responsible for anything at all? Does that mean I also blame the left-wing Israelis who actually condemn their own government? He clearly stipulated that he blamed those who don't oppose Israel and, even if he didn't, common sense dictates that children are generally held to not be responsible. In such a case, you would normally assume that the person abides by common sense, and not immediately assume the worst of them.

Then, there's the fact that, yes, he did say that as they become older, they'll likely be brainwashed. Well, that's not really very surprising. Someone who grows up in a Zionist household will learn Zionst ideals, just as a child in an Islamic or secular family will learn those values. It's a far stretch from stating a basic fact about how society works to understanding that he believes children in Israel are at fault or deserve to die.

 Even in the post which you mentioned Mohamed1993 as quoting, he clearly states: "  i don't have hope when they become pubert , remain innocent." "Remain innocent" alone implies that he believes they are currently innocent. Maybe it's his poor grasp of English grammar but I would suggest you refrain from assuming the worst.

I will agree, however, with you that need to be more precise in the language we use. If I misunderstood you, may God forgive me.

Regarding your earlier post,

As for the 5-year-old problem, sure, throwing rocks is illegal and actions have consequences. However, violence is also illegal but fighting oppressors is your paramount duty in Islam. The oppressors will, of course, claim the 'rebels' are breaking the law but that's because the oppressors deserve to be punished because they were, in fact, the ones who committed crimes and oppressed innocents first. In this conflict, one side is clearly the oppressor. You can't expect the Palestinians to just sit back and agree to being poisoned and starved so as far as hostilities against the IDF go, they have a right to fight. Thus, even if throwing rocks at the IDF is illegal, I say more power to those throwing rocks at those heartless and brutal soldiers. King's video shows the murderous intent of Israel quite well. Thus, I don't see why you feel the need to defend the soldiers' actions or explain them.

 And if you retort with the suggestion that Palestinians should instead focus on peace, they have tried multiple times in the last 2 decades, haven't they? Israel has always been the side which hinders the peace process or outright sabotages it. What else do they have left except to go back to their resistance, as weak as it is?

Ok, we're playing with semantics on who said what and trying to interpret grammar.  I'll just leave that alone.

I'm not saying the Palestinians shouldn't fight back.  They should fight back all they want.  I don't expect the Palestinians to "sit back and agree to be poisoned and starved."  But I don't expect the IDF to sit back and agree to get rocks thrown at them or rockets launched at them.  If you're going to pick a fight with someone bigger than you and stronger than you, you better hit them hard enough to knock them down, or expect a swift punch to the face.  Unfortunately Iran's proxies in Syria learned this the hard way.  They launched fireworks at Israeli positions that many didn't even reach Israeli territory - they showed their hand that they're incapable of launching an offensive, and ISrael responded with a heavy hand and hundreds of actual missiles.  

12 hours ago, Haji 2003 said:

Do you honestly believe that God promised the land of Israel to the Jews with the proviso that Jewish access to the wailing wall would be in the hands of the Jordanians? That's the position of the 1948 borders.

They make no sense. Unless from the Zionist perspective they were only an opening gambit.

Although I disagree with Netanyahu and the settlers at least their position is consistent. If Israel exists based on promises made by God, then Jerusalem should be its undivided capital. But even today that seems a land grab too far - given the international reaction to the American embassy.

But you can see the direction of travel.

And in time the Europeans will come round to the view that if you think Jerusalem should not be the undivided capital of Israel, you are anti-semitic.

No, I don't believe God promised Israel to the Jews.  I wasn't aware the wording in the document that formed Israel stated that God promised ISrael to the Jews.  

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On 6/2/2018 at 8:34 PM, coldcow said:

There are plenty of Jews in Israel that support Palestinian statehood.  In fact, there used to be more of them.  However as more terrorism (intifadas, etc) killed more civlians, more of them started pushing the government to fight back harder and harder.  And they elected more right wing governments.  

Still though, Islam teaches that children are innocent until at least the age of puberty, right?  You're telling me that the children (literal children, not figurative) in Isreal deserve to die for the sins of their parents and grand parents?

Israel are the biggest terrorists in the Middle East, by far. If you start counting up the amount of unarmed civilians and children (non baligh) that they have killed in Palestine and South Lebanon (don't forget Israel invaded South Lebanon 3 times, occupied it, and bombed civilians indistriminately more times than anyone can count)

Take a count from any group besides IDF and US (who are obviously totally biased in favor of Israel). 

In the last border incident in Gaza, more than 121 unarmed Palestianians were killed and 0 Israelis. Meaning the snipers who shot the Palestinians were not in danger(otherwise at least 1 or 2 would have been killed). That is nothing but cold blooded murder. 

A battle is when you have casualties on both sides, Murder is when all the casualties are on one side. 

Edited by Abu Hadi

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20 minutes ago, coldcow said:

I wasn't aware the wording in the document that formed Israel stated that God promised ISrael to the Jews.

Well that's the nub of the problem isn't it?

In 1948 we have secular Zionists happy to take whatever the UN decides to dish out. Over the period of 60 years, Israel transmogrifies to being a religious project, with Jerusalem as its undivided capital.

In 1948 they seem to be happy with leaving control of the Wailing Wall to the Jordanians, in this century they are making plans for demolishing the Al- Aqsa mosque in order to rebuild the temple.

The story seems to be that Israelis can pick and choose whatever narrative they want to follow and everyone else has to follow suit. 

 

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26 minutes ago, coldcow said:

you're going to pick a fight with someone bigger than you and stronger than you, you better hit them hard enough to knock them down, or expect a swift punch to the face.  Unfortunately Iran's proxies in Syria learned this the hard way.

Israel always claims that is bigger & stronger than rest of Arabs but you show it reverse:hahaha: Iran proxies with lower technology missiles now have equal power with high tech advanced military of Israel ,by learning this lesson & improving their missiles Israel military can’t respond them in future InshaAllah.:einstein:

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Just now, Abu Hadi said:

If you start counting up the amount of unarmed civilians and children

To that list, you need to add the Iraqis who died because just as Israel has been demanding action against Iran in recent years, it was Israeli leaders who egged on Bush to invade Iraq. This was while the rest of the world protested against.

Quote

Israel urged the United States yesterday to press ahead with a military offensive against Iraq, arguing that any delay would give Saddam Hussein more time to develop weapons of mass destruction.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iraq/1404673/Sharon-urges-America-to-bring-down-Saddam.html

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10 minutes ago, Haji 2003 said:

This was while the rest of the world protested against.

I disagree with you there maybe some little protest against their attack at first  but most of people were in favor of overthrowing  of Saddam (la) as a dictator & evil person but after falling of Saddam (la) Israel & America shown their true intention .

Edited by Ashvazdanghe

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22 minutes ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

I disagree with you there maybe some little protest

Hmm

Quote

 

Hundreds of thousands of people have taken to the streets of London to voice their opposition to military action against Iraq.

Police said it was the UK's biggest ever demonstration with at least 750,000 taking part, although organisers put the figure closer to two million.

 

 
 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/2765041.stm

 

And...

 

Quote

Huge waves of demonstrations not seen since the Vietnam war jammed more than 600 towns and cities around the world over the weekend as protesters from Tasmania to Iceland marched against the war in Iraq. Up to 30 million people demonstrated worldwide, including around 6 million in Europe, according to figures from organisers and police, although most conceded there were too many people in too many places to count.

 
 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2003/feb/17/politics.uk

 

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2 hours ago, Abu Hadi said:

Israel are the biggest terrorists in the Middle East, by far. If you start counting up the amount of unarmed civilians and children (non baligh) that they have killed in Palestine and South Lebanon (don't forget Israel invaded South Lebanon 3 times, occupied it, and bombed civilians indistriminately more times than anyone can count)

Take a count from any group besides IDF and US (who are obviously totally biased in favor of Israel). 

In the last border incident in Gaza, more than 121 unarmed Palestianians were killed and 0 Israelis. Meaning the snipers who shot the Palestinians were not in danger(otherwise at least 1 or 2 would have been killed). That is nothing but cold blooded murder. 

A battle is when you have casualties on both sides, Murder is when all the casualties are on one side. 

Maybe.  But that's not what I'm saying.  I'm saying actions have consequences.  The decision to target Israeli civilians led a shift in public opinion in Israel and elsewhere more towards giving Palestinians nothing and taking everything.  It is easier for an average westerner to relate to another middle class person just going to work on a bus, or handing out in a club, and getting murdered by a suicide bomber than it is to some poor person who doesn't speak english getting dying as "collateral damage" when the Israelis target the militants running in and around the alleyways.

2 hours ago, Haji 2003 said:

Well that's the nub of the problem isn't it?

In 1948 we have secular Zionists happy to take whatever the UN decides to dish out. Over the period of 60 years, Israel transmogrifies to being a religious project, with Jerusalem as its undivided capital.

In 1948 they seem to be happy with leaving control of the Wailing Wall to the Jordanians, in this century they are making plans for demolishing the Al- Aqsa mosque in order to rebuild the temple.

The story seems to be that Israelis can pick and choose whatever narrative they want to follow and everyone else has to follow suit. 

 

Wait, it sounds like you're changing what you are saying.  Did or didn't the original founding document of Israel say that "God promised Israel to the Jews?"

2 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Israel always claims that is bigger & stronger than rest of Arabs but you show it reverse:hahaha: Iran proxies with lower technology missiles now have equal power with high tech advanced military of Israel ,by learning this lesson & improving their missiles Israel military can’t respond them in future InshaAllah.:einstein:

Sorry, but this just isn't true.  Just look at what happened with Iran's proxies in Syria launching rockets at Israel.  Not only did most of those rockets not even make it to their targets, but the rest were shot down.  And then I think Israel responded with 8 times as many missiles and hit every Iranian military asset in the country.  Israel has been able to fly fighters into Syria repeatedly and only lost I think one.  And after it lost that one, it fired a missile at the ground missile battery that shot it down.  

I'm sure Hezbollah could fire enough rockets to overwhelm the iron dome for periods of time, but it'll result in heavy losses for South Lebanon's civilians.  Because if Hezbollah is willing to fire rockets into Israel indiscriminately, you can be sure Israel will reciprocate and take out and civilian buildings near rocket launchers, or housing weapons caches.

Remember, there's a difference between winning a war, and not losing a war.  Just because you didn't lose, doesn't mean you won.  And just because you didn't win, doesn't mean you lost.

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1 hour ago, coldcow said:

The decision to target Israeli civilians led a shift in public opinion in Israel and elsewhere more towards giving Palestinians nothing and taking everything.  It is ea

We say Israel is an illegal state that mst not exists so any refrarndom is none sense if they are against Israel ,they must leave it .

 

1 hour ago, coldcow said:

Remember, there's a difference between winning a war, and not losing a war.  Just because you didn't lose, doesn't mean you won.  And just because you didn't win, doesn't mean you lost.

This is not about win or lose definitely we prefer win but doing our duty is higher than this .

 

How the Shias of Ali Fight | Brother Asad Jafri

 

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