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As salaamun aleikum,

Can anyone here shed some light upon this ayatt? Its from Surah 7, ayatt 124. The word in question is the one used for "crucify". What I dont get is that crucifiction wasnt invented til 400 or 500 B.C. by the Persians, but the discourse in this Surah takes place at the time of Pharoah and Prophet Musa (AS) so Im thinking something is lost in translation.

Surah Al-Araf, Verse 124:
لَأُقَطِّعَنَّ أَيْدِيَكُمْ وَأَرْجُلَكُم مِّنْ خِلَافٍ ثُمَّ لَأُصَلِّبَنَّكُمْ أَجْمَعِينَ

I will certainly cut off your hands and your feet on opposite sides, then will I crucify you all together.
(English - Shakir)

Im not sure who to tag here because Im not sure who of us is particularly good in Quranic Arabic, root words, vocabulary, etc. Maybe @Qa'im?

Any help is appreciated,

W/s

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9 hours ago, hasanhh said:

The trilateral root is sad lam ba.

The meaning of that root is not crucifixion. 
يَخْرُجُ مِنْ بَيْنِ الصُّلْبِ وَالتَّرَائِبِ
86:7

Was it a cross on which Pharaoh threatened to crucify the magicians? Lets see a verse:
 

قَالَ آمَنتُمْ لَهُ قَبْلَ أَنْ آذَنَ لَكُمْ إِنَّهُ لَكَبِيرُكُمُ الَّذِي عَلَّمَكُمُ السِّحْرَ فَلَأُقَطِّعَنَّ أَيْدِيَكُمْ وَأَرْجُلَكُم مِّنْ خِلَافٍ وَلَأُصَلِّبَنَّكُمْ فِي جُذُوعِ النَّخْلِ وَلَتَعْلَمُنَّ أَيُّنَا أَشَدُّ عَذَابًا وَأَبْقَى

20:71

it was the trunk of palm trees.  

Prophet Yusuf (a.s) who came well before Prophet Musa, has also mentioned this term
 

يَا صَاحِبَيِ السِّجْنِ أَمَّا أَحَدُكُمَا فَيَسْقِي رَبَّهُ خَمْرًا وَأَمَّا الآخَرُ فَيُصْلَبُ فَتَأْكُلُ الطَّيْرُ مِن رَّأْسِهِ
12:41

So it seems pretty old practice of Egyptians as per the verses of Quran.

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9 hours ago, shia farm girl said:

What I dont get is that crucifiction wasnt invented til 400 or 500 B.C. by the Persians, but the discourse in this Surah takes place at the time of Pharoah and Prophet Musa (AS)

There was an older & more severe version of punishment exist in the Egyptian history known as "Impalement". So how is it possible that those who practice impalement don't knew anything about crucifixion? 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impalement#Antiquity

Quote

Mesopotamia and the ancient Near East[edit]

The earliest known use of impalement as a form of execution occurred in civilizations of the ancient Near East. For example, the Code of Hammurabi, promulgated about 1772 BC[26] by the Babylonian king Hammurabi specifies impaling for a woman who killed her husband for the sake of another man.[27] In the late Isin/Larsa period, from about the same time, it seems that, in some city states, mere adultery on the wife's part (without murder of her husband mentioned) could be punished by impalement.[28] From the royal archives of the city of Mari (at the Syrian-Iraqi border by the western bank of Euphrates), most of it also roughly contemporary to Hammurabi, it is known that soldiers taken captive in war were on occasion impaled.[29] Roughly contemporary with Babylonia under Hammurabi, king Siwe-Palar-huhpak of Elam, a country lying directly east of Babylonia in present-day Iran, made official edicts in which he threatened the allies of his enemies with impalement, among other terrible fates.[30] For acts of perceived great sacrilege, some individuals, in diverse cultures, have been impaled for their effrontery. For example, roughly 1200 BC, merchants of Ugarit express deep concern to each other that a fellow citizen is to be impaled in the Phoenician town Sidon, due to some "great sin" committed against the patron deity of Sidon.[31]

Pharaonic Egypt[edit]

During Dynasty 19, Merneptah had Libu prisoners of war impaled ("caused to be set upon a stake") to the south of Memphis, following an attempted invasion of Egypt during his Regnal Year 5.[32] The relevant determinative for ḫt ("stake") depicts an individual transfixed through the abdomen.[33] Other Egyptian kings employing impalements include Sobekhotep II, Akhenaten, Seti, and Ramesses IX.[33]

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crucifixion#Details

Quote

Crucifixion was most often performed to dissuade its witnesses from perpetrating similar (usually particularly heinous) crimes. Victims were sometimes left on display after death as a warning to any other potential criminals. Crucifixion was usually intended to provide a death that was particularly slow, painful (hence the term excruciating, literally "out of crucifying"), gruesome, humiliating, and public, using whatever means were most expedient for that goal. Crucifixion methods varied considerably with location and time period.

The Greek and Latin words corresponding to "crucifixion" applied to many different forms of painful execution, from impaling on a stake to affixing to a tree, to an upright pole (a crux simplex) or to a combination of an upright (in Latin, stipes) and a crossbeam (in Latin, patibulum). 

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@Salsabeel

Thanks so much for this info-the first thing that came to my mind when this ayatt caught my attention was that i needed to figure out exactly what fell under the definition of the arabic word that was translated as "crucifixtion". I see now that its much more than what the english translation suggests...and i seriously never wouldve connected impalement of different sorts to this. Thanks again!

W/s

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12 minutes ago, shia farm girl said:

Thanks so much for this info

Alhamdolillah!!!
Sister, You're most welcome! 

And I am thankful to you for you have asked this question. 

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2 hours ago, Salsabeel said:

The meaning of that root is not crucifixion. 
يَخْرُجُ مِنْ بَيْنِ الصُّلْبِ وَالتَّرَائِبِ 
86:7    <-----Here it is a Noun

Was it a cross on which Pharaoh threatened to crucify the magicians? Lets see a verse:
 

قَالَ آمَنتُمْ لَهُ قَبْلَ أَنْ آذَنَ لَكُمْ إِنَّهُ لَكَبِيرُكُمُ الَّذِي عَلَّمَكُمُ السِّحْرَ فَلَأُقَطِّعَنَّ أَيْدِيَكُمْ وَأَرْجُلَكُم مِّنْ خِلَافٍ وَلَأُصَلِّبَنَّكُمْ فِي جُذُوعِ النَّخْلِ وَلَتَعْلَمُنَّ أَيُّنَا أَشَدُّ عَذَابًا وَأَبْقَى

20:71     <---- Here it is the same verb form as ayat 7:124

it was the trunk of palm trees.  

Prophet Yusuf (a.s) who came well before Prophet Musa, has also mentioned this term
 

يَا صَاحِبَيِ السِّجْنِ أَمَّا أَحَدُكُمَا فَيَسْقِي رَبَّهُ خَمْرًا وَأَمَّا الآخَرُ فَيُصْلَبُ فَتَأْكُلُ الطَّيْرُ مِن رَّأْسِهِ
12:41    <----Here it is a different form of the verb

So it seems pretty old practice of Egyptians as per the verses of Quran.

 

Above

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6 hours ago, hasanhh said:

Above

Thank you for reminding, I knew that. What I have pointed out to you was that the rootword does not mean to crucify like the Christians keeps the understanding of crucifixion of Jesus. 

6 hours ago, hasanhh said:

The Greeks and Latins were a millennia+ later.

So what!! 

The Egyptian history tells us that there exist the punishment like impalement. Have you not seen that quote?

7 hours ago, Salsabeel said:

Mesopotamia and the ancient Near East[edit]

The earliest known use of impalement as a form of execution occurred in civilizations of the ancient Near East. For example, the Code of Hammurabi, promulgated about 1772 BC[26] by the Babylonian king Hammurabi specifies impaling for a woman who killed her husband for the sake of another man.[27] In the late Isin/Larsa period, from about the same time, it seems that, in some city states, mere adultery on the wife's part (without murder of her husband mentioned) could be punished by impalement.[28] From the royal archives of the city of Mari (at the Syrian-Iraqi border by the western bank of Euphrates), most of it also roughly contemporary to Hammurabi, it is known that soldiers taken captive in war were on occasion impaled.[29] Roughly contemporary with Babylonia under Hammurabi, king Siwe-Palar-huhpak of Elam, a country lying directly east of Babylonia in present-day Iran, made official edicts in which he threatened the allies of his enemies with impalement, among other terrible fates.[30] For acts of perceived great sacrilege, some individuals, in diverse cultures, have been impaled for their effrontery. For example, roughly 1200 BC, merchants of Ugarit express deep concern to each other that a fellow citizen is to be impaled in the Phoenician town Sidon, due to some "great sin" committed against the patron deity of Sidon.[31]

Pharaonic Egypt[edit]

During Dynasty 19, Merneptah had Libu prisoners of war impaled ("caused to be set upon a stake") to the south of Memphis, following an attempted invasion of Egypt during his Regnal Year 5.[32] The relevant determinative for ḫt ("stake") depicts an individual transfixed through the abdomen.[33] Other Egyptian kings employing impalements include Sobekhotep II, Akhenaten, Seti, and Ramesses IX.[33]

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Crucifixions were not usually done with expensive nails, but with rope or the executed's own clothing. So, a person would be tied to one -or between two- palm trees and left to muscularly suffocate. Meanwhile, bugs and birds would go after their bodies.

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22 hours ago, shia farm girl said:

@hasanhh 

Thanks for that. Ive only so far found the reference to the Persians using it/inventing it.

So its being used in an "action" sense...

Thanks again!

W/s

It is not recorder the using it with Persian it was Chalipa as sign of Sun which used by Romans for torturing because many Mithraists that they were an underground religion between Romans and after adopting Christianity by Romans it becomes sign of Christanity.

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23 hours ago, Maytham Al-Tammar said:

Genesis 40:19 from The Hebrew Holy Bible, 

בְּעֹ֣וד ׀ שְׁלֹ֣שֶׁת יָמִ֗ים יִשָּׂ֨א פַרְעֹ֤ה אֶת־רֹֽאשְׁךָ֙ מֵֽעָלֶ֔יךָ וְתָלָ֥ה אֹותְךָ֖ עַל־עֵ֑ץ וְאָכַ֥ל הָעֹ֛וף אֶת־בְּשָׂרְךָ֖ מֵעָלֶֽיךָ׃

"Within three days Pharaoh will lift off your head and impale your body on a pole. And the birds will eat away your flesh."

Interesting to see that here "impalement" is used instead of crucifixion.

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A related hadith:

- في كتاب علل الشرايع باسناده إلى أبان الأحمر قال: سألت أبا عبد الله عليه السلام عن قول الله عز وجل وفرعون ذي الأوتاد لأي شئ سمى ذا الأوتاد؟فقال:  لأنه كان إذا عذب رجلا بسطه على الأرض على وجهه ومد يده ورجليه فأوتدها بأربعة أوتاد في الأرض، وربما بسطه على خشب منبسط، فوتد رجليه ويديه بأربعة أوتاد، ثم تركه على حاله حتى يموت فسماه الله عز وجل فرعون ذا الأوتاد.

 

In `Ilal ash-Shara'i`: By its isnad to Aban al-Ahmar.

He said: I asked Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام about the saying of Allah عز وجل, "And Pharaoh, owner of the stakes?" (89:10). Why was he called owner of the stakes? So he said: Because when he would torture a man, he would spread him out on the earth upon his face, and stretch his arms and legs, and pierce them with four stakes in the earth. Sometimes, he would spread him over a flat piece of wood, pierce his arms and legs with four stakes, and leave him like that until he dies. So Allah عز وجل called him "Pharaoh, owner of the stakes" (89:10).

---

And in general, trust in the creative ability of a tyrant to find ways to torture and kill people.

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