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In the Name of God بسم الله

Can we break fast at Sunni maghrib time?

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On 6/1/2018 at 5:58 PM, Ibn al-Hussain said:

Ihtiyat Wajib (obligatory precaution) means you have to follow it, but you also have the option to refer to the next most-learned Marja' if you want. If you do not choose to refer to the next most-learned Marja' then you have to follow whatever the ruling is for the obligatory precaution.

Wasalam

What if one is not able to ascertain who the next most-learned marja' is? Can one pick up any scholar as long as he is a marja'?

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13 minutes ago, seekingthebeloved said:

I want to know this too!

Salam you can choose any Marja but they have Risalah which by reading  it you can choose  most-learned marja among them.

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4 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam you can choose any Marja but they have Risalah which by reading  it you can choose  most-learned marja among them.

That is not a valid method of determining who is the most learned.

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16 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam you can choose any Marja but they have Risalah which by reading  it you can choose  most-learned marja among them.

Do all of our maraja have a written risalah? 

12 hours ago, Muhammad Al-Hurr said:

That is not a valid method of determining who is the most learned.

Why do you say that? 

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Posted (edited)
On 6/9/2018 at 5:39 PM, Rashīd al-Hanafī said:

As far as I know, the karāhah of delaying one's iftār, if there is any, would be tanzīhan; that's as regard us Ahnāf, anyway (Subcontinent Taymo-Hanafis, for whom every hukm in classical books seems to get a promotion, are a different story).

Personally, if I had a Shī`ī friend over for iftār, I'd be more than happy to delay it for them.

And if there is someone who's become Shī`ī and not worked up the courage to tell their family yet... why just feign some gastrointestinal distress around sunset and hang out in the bathroom for a bit? 

Thanks for the helping response indeed.

Though it may be considered as ihtiyat (precaution) rather than delaying.

The hadiths in sunni sources about ta'jeel (being quick) in breaking the fast, says that we have to break the fast before the stars appear in order to get prosperity. So, you will still have the virtue even if you "delay" it for 10 minutes.

What's more is that sunni (mostly khanafi and shafii) muftis are also of the belief that timetables might be wrong and as a precaution we need to wait for a few minutes.

Here's an article on sunni websites regarding the issue;

https://islamqa.org/hanafi/askimam/28720

http://askimam.org/public/question_detail/1783.html

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Answer

The Fuqahaa have stated that it is Waajib to exercise precaution in breaking fast. (Tahtaawi; Karachi pg.370). Ibn Nujaym states, Ta'jeel (to be quick) which is desired in breaking fast is before the stars appear. (Bahrur Raaiq vol.4 pg.292) In view of the above, it is not necessary to break fast immediately after sunset in order to achieve the virtue mentioned in the Hadith. The virtue will still be achieved even though there is a slight delay.

The Hadith of Bukhari referred to in your questionnaire is explained by Ibn Hajr (Rahmatullaahi Alayhi) in Fathul Baari (vol.4 pg.191) as follows: "The Christians and Jews used to delay their fast until the stars were apparent, hence, we should contradict them, i.e. we should not delay to that extent."

Furthermore, we have queried the matter with the relevant experts, they too are of the opinion that the timetables are not accurate and there is a variation of at least two (2) minutes. Therefore, our advise is to exercise precaution by waiting at least five (5) minutes after the given time in our perpetual timetable.

And Allah Ta’ala Knows Best.

Mufti Ebrahim Desai
(Al-Mahmood 12)

But I think it must be done on both sides.

I mean, shiite Muslims are doing it right on iftaar and sunni Muslims might as well join them and break their fast 10 minutes "later" for courtesy and precaution.

Likewise, shiite Muslims can join Sunni Muslims and stop eating earlier than the deadline in the suhoor (pre-fasting meal) as a means of courtesy and precaution.

Edited by islamicmusic
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1 hour ago, Hameedeh said:

Why do you say that? 

Salam,

Firstly, not every marja' has his own risalah. Al-Sayed Khamenei is considered to be one of the most learned marja' and he does not have his own risalah.

Secondly, merely reading through the books of the maraja' will not reveal which one is the most learned. Just because you may agree or like a marja's rulings more than another's rulings, it does not mean that you can consider that marja' to be the most learned. You need to identify who the scholar is and investigate and assess his knowledge and understanding when it comes to fiqh. Al-Sayyid Al-Sistani has mentioned correct methods to identify the most learned marja' in his risalah (which can be found in the risalah of other maraja'):

3. There are three ways of identifying a Mujtahid, and the A'alam:
when a person is certain that a particular person is a Mujtahid, or the most learned one. For this, he should be a learned person himself, and should possess the capacity to identify a Mujtahid or an A'alam; when two persons, who are learned and just and possess the capacity to identify a Mujtahid or the A'alam, confirm that a person is a Mujtahid or an A'lam, provided that two other learned and just persons do not contradict them. In fact, being a Mujt ahid or an A'lam can also be established by a statement of only one trusted and reliable person; when a number of learned persons who possess the capacity to identify a Mujtahid or an A'lam, certify that a particular person is a Mujtahid or an A'lam, provided that one is satisfied by their statement.

https://www.sistani.org/english/book/48/2116/

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On 5/3/2021 at 11:55 PM, Muhammad Al-Hurr said:

merely reading through the books of the maraja' will not reveal which one is the most learned. Just because you may agree or like a marja's rulings more than another's rulings, it does not mean that you can consider that marja' to be the most learned. You need to identify who the scholar is and investigate and assess his knowledge and understanding when it comes to fiqh.

The Society of Seminary Teachers of Qom (جامعهٔ مدرسین حوزهٔ علمیهٔ قم‎) have recommended seven men who are the most learned:

Grand Ayatullah Ali Khamenei

Grand Ayatullah Ali Sistani

Grand Ayatullah Shobeiri Zanjani

Grand Ayatullah Saafi Gulpaygani

Grand Ayatullah Makeram Shirazi

Grand Ayatullah Nouri Hamedani

Grand Ayatullah Wahid Khorasani

You can see an image of these men at the top of the page at the English website: http://www.jameehmodarresin.org/en/ 

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On 5/4/2021 at 7:17 AM, Hameedeh said:

Do all of our maraja have a written risalah? 

Salam every Marja must has a written Risalah .

On 5/4/2021 at 9:25 AM, Muhammad Al-Hurr said:

Firstly, not every marja' has his own risalah. Al-Sayed Khamenei is considered to be one of the most learned marja' and he does not have his own risalah.

https://www.leader.ir/en/book/32/Practical-Laws-of-Islam

 

 

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1 hour ago, realizm said:

 

:salam:

After all these years, I am still trying to understand how an ignorant person should determine who the most learned is, and be comfortable with such an idea. 

 

An ignorant person does not determine who is the most learned. He needs to ask those who are capable of determining who is the most learned. Until he finds out who is the most learned, he is required to act on precaution.

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1 hour ago, Guest ... said:

An ignorant person does not determine who is the most learned. He needs to ask those who are capable of determining who is the most learned. Until he finds out who is the most learned, he is required to act on precaution.

Dear ... 

Please explain how these leave room for several most learned people, since themselves should be able to determine whether another is most learned instead of them. 

It's not like every Marja` has its own specificity that made them say 'Ok I need to become an alternative to Ayatollah Fulan'.

It's more about them being recognised as trustworthy by their peers, and thus granted a title which allows them to pretend to the title of most learned, that laymen (ignorant) are allowed to follow. 

Based on this, in our tradition, it is allowed to follow someone you consider the most learned 1/ even if you are not certain of this AND 2/ even if your research cannot lead to the answer you are looking for. 

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3 hours ago, realizm said:

After all these years, I am still trying to understand how an ignorant person should determine who the most learned is, and be comfortable with such an idea.

Salam when they understand basic principles like Tawhid by themselves so they are not ignorant.

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3 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam when they understand basic principles like Tawhid by themselves so they are not ignorant.

:salam:

By ignorant I meant laymen, not versed in science. 

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On 5/26/2018 at 5:07 AM, Rayhana80 said:

Can we break fast at Sunni maghrib time? Or can we do maghrib at Sunni time and break fast right after? It’s recommended to pray before breaking your fast.. According to the ruling, it’s not obligatory to wait for the redness in the sky to go away, just as a precaution we can wait few more minutes after Sunni maghrib prayers. Can anyone explain please?

All the maraja' say either that it is either ihtiyat wajib, ihtiyat mustahab or that there is no ihtiyat regarding breaking the fast and praying Salat ul-Maghrib when the redness of the eastern sky disappears. Hence, technically speaking, it is permissible to break the fast at sunset rather than when the redness of the eastern sky disappears; however, it is better to wait the extended period. This is because if your marja' says that it is ihtiyat wajib to wait the extended period, you can refer to the next most learned marja' and if he also says ihtiyat wajib you can refer to the next most learned marja' and so on until you find a marja' who permits breaking the fast at sunset.

 

A question I have asked to leader.ir:

As-Salamu Alaykum,
If the most learned marja' expresses an obligatory precaution regarding something and the second most learned marja' expresses the same obligatory precaution, can one refer to the fatwa of the third most learned marja'?

Salamun `alaykum wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuhu

That is no problem.
With prayers for your success

 

According to the fatwa of Al-Sayyid As-Sistani:

7. If an A'lam Mujtahid gives a fatwa on some matter, his follower cannot act in that matter on the fatwa of another Mujtahid. But if he does not give a fatwa, and expresses a precaution (Ihtiyat) that a man should act in such and such a manner, for exam ple if he says that as a precautionary measure, in the first and second Rak'at of the namaz he should read a complete Surah after the Surah of "Hamd", the follower may either act on this precaution, which is called obligatory precaution (Ihtiyat Wajib), or he may act on the fatwa of another Mujtahid who it is permissible to follow. Hence, if he (the second Mujtahid) rules that only "Surah Hamd" is enough, he (the person offering prayers) may drop the second Surah. The position will be the same if the A'a lam Mujtahid expresses terms like Ta'mmul or Ishkal.

https://www.sistani.org/english/book/48/2116/

As-Sayyid As-Sistani does not specify that the other marja' needs to be the next most learned. He just says that the other marja' must be a mujtahid who is a qualified marja' (as in all of the conditions are fulfilled). Hence, if you follow As-Sayyid As-Sistani, instead of following his ihtiyat wajib, you can refer to the fatwa of any other qualified marja'.

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On 5/9/2021 at 11:15 PM, Muhammad Al-Hurr said:

All the maraja' say either that it is either ihtiyat wajib, ihtiyat mustahab or that there is no ihtiyat regarding breaking the fast and praying Salat ul-Maghrib when the redness of the eastern sky disappears. Hence, technically speaking, it is permissible to break the fast at sunset rather than when the redness of the eastern sky disappears; however, it is better to wait the extended period. This is because if your marja' says that it is ihtiyat wajib to wait the extended period, you can refer to the next most learned marja' and if he also says ihtiyat wajib you can refer to the next most learned marja' and so on until you find a marja' who permits breaking the fast at sunset.

 I was mistaken here. According to Al-Sayyed Khamenei and Al-Sayyid Khomeini, it is wajib to wait until the redness of the eastern sky disappears, which undermines the conclusion I came to.

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