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In the Name of God بسم الله

Matam in the Current state . . .

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KnoXbar

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Salam . . . 

as i always try to explain in my posts that i am just a beginner in research on shiasm in the search of truth as i will never want to hurt someone's feeling at any level and if you find anything hurtful from my side i apologies in advance as my intention is just to know and learn + please avoid my bad english as well as i am not too good in it . . . 

so the question that i mostly asked about is MATAM . . . yes i do know that EVERY human being will cry after listening to masaaib of Karbala and after that . . . but i am unable to understand the current form of matam . . . beaten urself in deep grief looks fine to me but the way people do matam in sub-continent is it good? is there any hadiths about it? 

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2 hours ago, KnoXbar said:

Salam . . . 

as i always try to explain in my posts that i am just a beginner in research on shiasm in the search of truth as i will never want to hurt someone's feeling at any level and if you find anything hurtful from my side i apologies in advance as my intention is just to know and learn + please avoid my bad english as well as i am not too good in it . . . 

so the question that i mostly asked about is MATAM . . . yes i do know that EVERY human being will cry after listening to masaaib of Karbala and after that . . . but i am unable to understand the current form of matam . . . beaten urself in deep grief looks fine to me but the way people do matam in sub-continent is it good? is there any hadiths about it? 

I have to say that I think this topic has been thoroughly evaluated already, perhaps search and join one the existing threads. 

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Whatever tells a poem in the life of Hossein (peace be upon him) and fled, he will bless him and give him paradise. 
 

Language is always an interpreter of reason, but an interpreter of love is an eye. Where tears come from feelings and pain and burning, love is present, but as the language makes logical sentences with its regular circulation, reason is present. 

Therefore, as logical and humane reasoning can reveal the speaker's solidarity with the goals of the school leaders, the tear drop can also be considered an emotional battle against the enemies of the school. 

Hence, the cry of Hazrat Zeinab Alihaslam on the people of Bait (as) was an emotional cry and a messenger's cry, and a kind of denial of evil, and a burning and scandalous slogan of tyrants and oppressors. 

On this basis, the Prophet of Islam and the Imams (as) have called on anyone who is not ready to cry pretend to crying (in the form of crying) to keep alive Hussein in all ages in memories. 

At the reward of crying on Imam Hossein (as) 
The cry for the Imam  is so great and great that God is the guarantor of it. 

The cry for that Imam will eliminate the difficulties of the time of death. For Imam Sadiq (as) referred to Masama ibn'Abd al-Malik, "Do you remember the afflictions of your holy Imam (as Imam Hussein (peace be upon him)? 

He said: "I remember and cry for them. 

The Prophet (pbuh) said: "Be aware that you will see that when my dead fathers , they will execute your will to Death angle  who will make your eyes clear." 

He also said: "The crying on the circumstances of Hussein (peace be upon him) causes The angle of death to be more kind to you than a mother." 

Crying on Imam Abu Abdullah al-Hussein (AS) makes it easy for dead to be buried, buried and happy when he is dead, happy and covered when he leaves the grave while he is glad. The divine angels give him glad tidings of heaven and divine reward. 

The revenues of each drop are that a person always has a place in Paradise. (1) 

The cryer on Imam Hussein (AS) in Paradise will be with them and their degree. (2) 

Sheikh Jalil Ja'far ibn Ghuluia has narrated in full from Ibn Darjeh: 
One day we served Imam Sadiq (as) and we rememberd Imam Hussein (peace be upon him), and we mentioned him.Hazrat Sadiq (AS)  cried and we are also cried up with them. Imam Hussein (peace be upon him) said that Imam Hussein (peace be upon him) said: "I am dead of  crying. My name is not taken to any believer unless he becomes sad and crying ." 

According to the narration, there was no time for the name of Imam Hussein (as) to be brought to Imam Sadiq (peace be upon him), and that Imam would Become sad  on that day. The Imam  was grieved and disappointed all day and said: Imam Hussein (AS) causes of cry of any believer. 

Sheikh Tusi and Sheikh Mofid have narrated from A'ban ibn Qalub that Imam Sadiq (as) said: "The breath  of one who is distressed for our oppression is merit(Tasbeeh), and his sorrow and mourning is the worship of God and the hiding of our mysteries from the foreigeners is jihad in the way of God." (3) 

Sheikh-e-Kashi (ra) has narrated from Zaid Shham: "I was with the congregation of the Kufis at the service of Imam Sadiq (AS), Ja'far ibn Afan. The Imam Sadiq  (As) approached him and sat near him and said: "Ja'far! 

Jafar said: "My soul, God, I will sacrifice you for me." 

The Ima, (sa) said: I have been told that you are doing poetry in the mourning of Hossein (AS). 

Jafar said: Yes, I'll be yours. 

The Imam said: read it. 

Ja'far began reading the poem, Imam Sadiq (AS) and the audience of the House started crying  

Hazrat so groaned that the tears of his blessed eyes flowed on his sacred beard . 

After that, the Imam (as) said: "By Allah, the arch angels who came here and listened to your mourning, which is in the affliction of Hussein (peace be upon him), and wept more than us, and at the same time, heaven with all the blessings is made  obligatory for you and forgave your sins. 

So Imam said: "Do you want to I say so much, Ja'far?" 

Jafar said: Yes, my Master! 

The Imam (as) said: Anyone who says in the grief of Hussein (AS) a poem and cries and makes othe cry, Allah bless him and make Heaven a oblihatory for him. (4) 

Sheikh Saduq (ra) narrated from Ebrahim ibn Abu al-Mahmoud that Imam Reza (peace be upon him) (peace be upon him) said: "The month of Muharram was a month that considered by the people of ignorance, war, and qatal in that month forbidden, but this traitor nation drones of our blood in it The holy month, and hurt our sanctity and captured our women and children in that month. Fire burned in our tents and looted our property. The sanctity of His Holiness the Prophet (PBUH & HP) & his household did not respect . 

Indeed, the tragedy of martyrdom of Hussein (AS) hurt our eyes and tear us down. Our dearly hated us, and the land of Karbala became grave our fathers and mothers. 

Therefore, they should go to Hussein; indeed, the cry upon him will crush the great sins. 

Then Imam Reza (peace be upon him) (peace be upon him) said: My father did not see that Imam as laughing because the month of Muharram came in. And the sadness and grief prevailed over him till the day of Ashura. That day was the day of his tribulation and grief, and said: Today is the day when Hussein (PBUH) was martyred. 

Sheikh al-Saduq also narrated from the Imam: "Everybody cries  in day of Ashura the judgement day will be his happy day, his eye will  become  brighten of by our light ." (5) 

It was narrated from Ryan bin Shabib that the first day of Muharram came to the service of Imam Reza (peace be upon him). Imam Reza (AS) said: "O son of a Shabib if you cry on Hussein (AS), and the tear of your eyes  will flow on you face , the Exalted Allah   will forgive all of your Small and grave sins, be it little or very much. 

O son of Shabib: If you want to meet Allah, while you do not have any sin, visit Hussein (peace be upon him). 

O son of Shabib  If you want to resurrect with Imam Hussain  (as) in a pavilion of Paradise with the Messenger of Allah and the Purified Imams. curse the murderers of Hussein (as) 

If you want to be like the martyrs of Karbala and you have a reward, say that: Whenever you remember the misery of the Imam , say: "Is it possible that I would have been with them and I would receive a great salvation?" 

If you want to be in high places in Paradise, O then be sad for our grief, and rejoice in our joy. Beloved on you, our authority and love, that if somebody loves a stone  , he will summon with it on the Day of Resurrection. (6) 

Ibn Qulliiyeh narrated with a reliable document from Abu Aharon Maknoof who said: "I went to the service of Imam Sadiq (AS), and he said. Read for me the life of Hossein (as). I also started to read. 

Imam said: do not read in the same style and style that you are familiar with yourself and read to the grave of Hossein (as). So I read 

They were crying and I was silent. 

He said: read, I read, until the lyrics were over. 

The Imam (as) said: read it again, I began to read these poems: or the family Maryam Fandibi Moulak and Ali Al-Hussein Fasaddi Babak 

Then the Imam  became sa and the women were crying and shivering, and when they calm down, they said: "O Abaharun, whoever calls for Hussein (peace be upon him), and makes one person cries , the paradise will be obliged to him" And then he said: Whoever teaches Imam Hussein (peace be upon him) and cries of him, Paradise is obligatory on him. (7) 

They have narrated the authentic document from Abdullah Bin Bakr saying: One day, I asked Imam Sadiq (peace be upon him), that O son of prophet  (PBUH & HP) al-Hassan, if we dig the grave of Imam Hussein (AS), would see something in his grave? 

The Imam(pbuh) said: "What a great your question !" Your question is correct. Hussein ibn Ali'Al-ul-Islam is with his parents and brother at the house of the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him), and they are feeding & happy with each other  

Sometimes he hangs on the right side of the throne and says: "O my Lord! Beware of the covenant with me then he looks at, his pilgrims, he knows them with their names and the names of their parents." And he looks at those who cry for him and ask forgiveness for them and ask it for their parents  t forgiven them and say: 
Crying on me If you know what God is offering for you and rewards, any time  of your happiness will be more than your grief. 

His majesty ask from Allah (saw) which he bless every sin and error that he has done. (8) 

The value of tear drop for Imam Hossein (as) 
A drop of it will turn off the fire and heat if it drops in hell. 

The angels capture it and record it in a glass. (9) 

For every practice, rewards are limited to the rewards of those tears whose reciprocity has no limit or finality. 

Tearing Eye-at the mourning of Imam Hussein (as) and its value 
If the tear on Imam Hussein (as) has all this credibility, then the eye that is mourning him also has its own properties and characteristics. 

Eye-catching properties in the mourning of Imam Hussein (AS) 
That eye is much more popular with the Lord than all eyes. (10) 

All eyes are crying on the Day of Resurrection except an eye crying on Imam Hussein (peace be upon him). (11) 

That eye is lit up by the light of Kosar and the view of it. (12) 

Angels  bless that eye with blemishes and cleanse tears from it. (13) 

Critical  tying for Imam Hussein (AS) 
Anyone who has ever received this blessing from Allah and has been able to drown a tear in the mourning of the Imam’s eyes, as well as illuminated blessings and unspeakable spiritual conditions, but cry for that Imam’s related qualities It is to ourselves that we briefly mention some of it: it is blessing the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH & HP) & his progeny . (14) 

The help and assistance of Hazrat Zahra, Salam Allah, as due to the fact that she mourns to mourn his child every day. (15) 

Paying debt to the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him),Allah (set) and the Imams (as). (16) 

The crying for that Imam is the following of the prophets, the angels, and the worshipers of Allah. 

Paying the wages of the Prophet's mission is because it comes from the Qur'an, which is the recipe for the Prophet of Almighty Almighty (friendship with the Prophet's family). Leaving it is betraying to the Prophet. (17)

The soothing heart of all cries and griefs. (18) 

Characteristics of the Majalis of the Passion of Imam Hossein (as) 
Those who participate in his meetings are well aware of the climate there and establish deep spiritual communication with his imam t, but according to various traditions and narrations of the congresses, the Imam has some characteristics: 

1. Everyone will sit in a meeting where the Imams (as) are referred to and mention their afflictions, his heart does not die on the day when the hearts die. (19) 

2. Such are the loving parties of God, His Messenger and the Imams (as) (20) 

3- The breath of the mourning person in that House is the blessing of God. (21) 

4- This is the place where Imam Hussein (peace be upon him) is about. Because that gentleman is in the throne and from there he is watching towards the land of Karbala and his pilgrims and criers. (22) 

5. The arch angels ofAllah are present at the House. 

6. The Assembly of Mourning of Imam Hussein (PBUH), wherever he stands, is his presence 

7. It is a journey of criers because the place of salvation and divine mercy and forgiving  Of sins. 

8. This assembly is from other congresses more sacred and higher. (23) 


Follow up 
1- Baharalanavar, p. 44, p. 289, and full of al-Zayarat Bob 32, p. 101 
2- Baharalanvar / 278/44 / Amali Sadooge Majlesi 17 / p. 68 
3- Endha al-Amal, p. 1, p. 538 
4. End-a-Al-Amal, p. 1, p. 539 
5-Endha al-Amal, p. 1, p. 540 
6- Endless Al-Amal, 1, p. 541 
7- Endless Al-Amal, 1, p. 542 
8- Concluding Al-Amal, p. 1, p. 543 
9. Montakhab Tarihy / 140/2 
10- Bharalanavar / 207/45, Full of Al-Zayat Bob 26 p. 81 
11- Bharalanovar / 293/44, Ala / 534/17 
12- Baharalanwar / 290/44, full of Al-Zayarat Bob 32 p. 102 
13. Baharalanvar / 305/44, the interpretation of Imam Hasan Asgari (AS) p. 369 
14. Biharalanvar / 207/45, Kamil of Al-Zayarat Bob 26 p. 81 
15- Bharalanavar / 209/208/45, Kamil of Al-Zayarat b. P. 82 
16- Bharalanavar / 207/45, full of Al-Zayarat Bob 26 p. 81 
17. Baharalanavar, p. 45, p. 205 and full of al-Zayarat, Bob 26, p. 79 
18. Translated by Khasayes al-Husseiniyah, p. 257 
19- Bharalanavar / 278/44, Amali Sadouk Majlesi 17 p. 68 
20- Bharalanavar / 282/42, Ghorb al-Asnad p.) 18 
21- Bharalanavar / 278/44, Amali Sadug, Majles 17, p. 68 
22- Bharalanavar / 292/44, full of Al-Zayarat Bob 32 p. 103 
23- Translation of Khasees Al-Husseiniyah, p. 256

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On 5/18/2018 at 4:43 AM, KnoXbar said:

Salam . . . 

as i always try to explain in my posts that i am just a beginner in research on shiasm in the search of truth as i will never want to hurt someone's feeling at any level and if you find anything hurtful from my side i apologies in advance as my intention is just to know and learn + please avoid my bad english as well as i am not too good in it . . . 

so the question that i mostly asked about is MATAM . . . yes i do know that EVERY human being will cry after listening to masaaib of Karbala and after that . . . but i am unable to understand the current form of matam . . . beaten urself in deep grief looks fine to me but the way people do matam in sub-continent is it good? is there any hadiths about it? 

not sure about the limitation to sub-continent. You simply have to go to Karbala on Arbaeen or see videos that people from all over the world come and do matam in their own way.

Some beat their heads, others, beat their cheeks, others beat their chests, some slap their laps.

Do whatever you can or don't do any of it. Its all good brother.

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^  I agree generally we spill more ink than blood in discussions about matam and their is no one way of doing it , its a matter of showing your grief

as an outsider i feel like shias should not get entangled in this too much it wastes their time and energy, gives sunnis a chance to attack them 

 

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I think matam is dumb.  You don't need to show others that you are greiving, assuming you really are grieving and not just putting on a show.  And I have never seen someone do matam for a family member, let alone the matam with blades.  Does that mean they aren't grieving for their family members?  

 

Again, you don't need to cause yourself harm and/or pain to show that you are grieving.  If you want to do that, do it in private.

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1 hour ago, coldcow said:

I think matam is dumb.  You don't need to show others that you are greiving, assuming you really are grieving and not just putting on a show.  And I have never seen someone do matam for a family member, let alone the matam with blades.  Does that mean they aren't grieving for their family members?  

 

Again, you don't need to cause yourself harm and/or pain to show that you are grieving.  If you want to do that, do it in private.

Because the grief of Hussain supersedes the grief of any family member.

I thinking people who thinks matam is dumb are dumber.

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Just now, ShiaMan14 said:

Because the grief of Hussain supersedes the grief of any family member.

I thinking people who thinks matam is dumb are dumber.

Sorry, but I don't think that's true.  That's a great line to tell people to show your devotion to your religion/Imams, but in actuality it's hard to replicate the type of bond you develop with a loved one compared with a historical/religious figure you only read and hear about.  

And matam is not part of Islam, as far as I'm aware.  Therefore, trying to bring it into Islam is dumb.

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3 minutes ago, coldcow said:

nd matam is not part of Islam, as far as I'm aware.  Therefore, trying to bring it into Islam is dumb.

Muslims do Matam & show it after martyrdom of Hamza (ra) by order of prophet (pbu) publicly that is also available in sunni sources so your view about it doesn’t make un Islamic 

Edited by Ashvazdanghe
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3 minutes ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Muslims do Matam & show it after martyrdom of Hamza (ra) by order of prophet (pbu) publicly that is also available in sunni sources so your view about it doesn’t make un Islamic 

Can you provide the sources please?

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3 minutes ago, coldcow said:

Can you provide the sources please?

وعن ابن شاذان من حدیث ابن مسعود رضی الله عنه : ما رأینا رسول الله صلى الله علیه وسلم باکیا قط أشد من بکائه على حمزة رضی الله عنه ، وضعه فی القبلة ، ثم وقف على جنازته ، وأنحب حتى نشغ ، أی شهق ، حتى بلغ به لغشی من البکاء یقول : یا حمزة یا عم رسول الله وأسد رسوله : یا حمزة یا فاعل الخیرات ، یا حمزة یا کاشف الکرب ، یا حمزة یا ذاب عن وجه رسول الله صلى الله علیه وسلم ، وکان صلى الله تعالى علیه وسلم إذا صلى على جنازة ....

شرح مسند أبی حنیفة، ج1، ص526

Ibn Mas'ud Sahabi, Prophet Muhammad (PBUH & HP), in the book of Abbas Hanifah's verse, says:We did not see that the Prophet (peace be upon him) would cry for someone, just as he cried for Hamza. When the Prophet Muhammad faced with dead body of Hazrat Hamzah :  put him on the side of the qiblah, and faced the body with burning and Anala, the Holy Prophet of Allah, and with the severity of the cry and disasterHe fell and fell unconscious and said: O uncle of the Prophet of Allah ( peace be upon him), and lion of Allah, Oh Hamza. Oh, good doer ,Oh you remover of The sadness, the one who was sacrificed for the Messenger of Allahسُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى of Allah, ..

 Sharh Mosnad Abuhanifa v1 p526  

 

 

http://ahlesonat.blog.ir/1395/04/29/گریه-شدید-پیامبر-برای-حمزه-سیدالشهداء2.jpg

 

3.jpg

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3 minutes ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

وعن ابن شاذان من حدیث ابن مسعود رضی الله عنه : ما رأینا رسول الله صلى الله علیه وسلم باکیا قط أشد من بکائه على حمزة رضی الله عنه ، وضعه فی القبلة ، ثم وقف على جنازته ، وأنحب حتى نشغ ، أی شهق ، حتى بلغ به لغشی من البکاء یقول : یا حمزة یا عم رسول الله وأسد رسوله : یا حمزة یا فاعل الخیرات ، یا حمزة یا کاشف الکرب ، یا حمزة یا ذاب عن وجه رسول الله صلى الله علیه وسلم ، وکان صلى الله تعالى علیه وسلم إذا صلى على جنازة ....

شرح مسند أبی حنیفة، ج1، ص526

Ibn Mas'ud Sahabi, Prophet Muhammad (PBUH & HP), in the book of Abbas Hanifah's verse, says:We did not see that the Prophet (peace be upon him) would cry for someone, just as he cried for Hamza. When the Prophet Muhammad faced with dead body of Hazrat Hamzah :  put him on the side of the qiblah, and faced the body with burning and Anala, the Holy Prophet of Allah, and with the severity of the cry and disasterHe fell and fell unconscious and said: O uncle of the Prophet of Allah ( peace be upon him), and lion of Allah, Oh Hamza. Oh, good doer ,Oh you remover of The sadness, the one who was sacrificed for the Messenger of Allahسُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى of Allah, ..

 Sharh Mosnad Abuhanifa v1 p526  

 

 

http://ahlesonat.blog.ir/1395/04/29/گریه-شدید-پیامبر-برای-حمزه-سیدالشهداء2.jpg

 

3.jpg

The only thing I understand of what you posted is what is in English, and based off that, I see nothing that indicates the prophet hit himself or cut himself while mourning, merely that he cried so much he fell down.

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45 minutes ago, coldcow said:

Sorry, but I don't think that's true.  That's a great line to tell people to show your devotion to your religion/Imams, but in actuality it's hard to replicate the type of bond you develop with a loved one compared with a historical/religious figure you only read and hear about.  

People have sacrificed themselves and their loved ones for the love of AhlulBayt so you think wrong.

46 minutes ago, coldcow said:

And matam is not part of Islam, as far as I'm aware.  Therefore, trying to bring it into Islam is dumb.

No one said it is wajib. ShiaChat is not part of Islam so you being on it is dumb too them...per your (il)logic.

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12 minutes ago, coldcow said:

The only thing I understand of what you posted is what is in English, and based off that, I see nothing that indicates the prophet hit himself or cut himself while mourning, merely that he cried so much he fell down.

We are not talking about tatbir aka bloodletting, just regular matam using hands.

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1 hour ago, coldcow said:

The only thing I understand of what you posted is what is in English, and based off that, I see nothing that indicates the prophet hit himself or cut himself while mourning, merely that he cried so much he fell down.

ومن جملة الأدلة على‏ شرعیة البکاء على المیت تحریضه صلى الله علیه و آله على البکاء على المیت، وذلک أنه لما دخل المدینة بعد غزوة أحد ورأى النساء یبکین على‏ قتلاهن بکى‏ وقال: «أمّا حمزة فلا بواکی له»، وهذه العبارة صریحة فی أنه صلى الله علیه و آله حرّض النساء على البکاء على‏ حمزة، وکذا حرّض الناس البکاء على‏ جعفر بن أبی طالب‏
__________________________________________________
(1)سنن النسائی 4: 22، المصنف لابن أبی شیبة 3: 266، الفصول المهمة: 93.
(2)المصنف 3: 266.

from allowing crying on dead body ,prophet (pbu) ordered about crying over dead one , it’s proof is that when he entered Median after Uhuhd Battle (Qazvah) & saw women are crying on their dead ones cried & said <<but Hamzah doesn’t have someone to cry on him>> ,and this is a clear statement on that prophet (pbu) motivated women to cry on Hamzah ,and same as it motivated for crying over Jafar Ibn Abi Talib 

—————

Sunan An Nesaeei 4:22 Almusnaf Li Ibn Abi Shabbat 3:266 , Alfussol Almuhemmate :93

Almusnaf 3:266

 

حیث قال: «على‏ مثل جعفر فلتبک البواکی»، فلو کان البکاء على المیت غیر مشروع لمّا حرّض النبیُّ على‏ ذلک، وإلیک بعض ما ورد فی هذا المجال:
1- روى‏  musnad Ahmadأحمد فی مسنده: قال رجع رسول اللَّه (ص) من أحد، فجعلت نساء الأنصار یبکین على‏ مَن قتل من أزواجهن، فقال رسول اللَّه (ص): «ولکن حمزة لا بواکی له»، قال: ثم نام فانتبه وهنّ یبکین حمزة، قال: فهن الیوم إذا بکین یندبن حمزة .. «1»
2- قال ابن عبد البر فی ترجمة حمزة نقلًا عن الواقدی: لم تبک امرأة من الأنصار على‏ میت بعد قول رسول اللَّه: «لکن حمزة لا بواکی له» إلى الیوم إلّابدأت بالبکاء على حمزة «2»
3- وفی  Shafayab Alquram شفاء الغرام: فجاء نساء بنی عبد الأشهل لمّا سمعوا ذلک، فبکین على‏ عم رسول اللَّه (ص) ونحن على‏ باب المسجد، فلما سمعهن خرج إلیهن فقال: «ارجعن یرحمکن اللَّه فقد آسیتنّ بأنفسکنّ» «3»
4- وقال (ص) حینما أراد أن یخرج من بیت جعفر بعد أن عزى أسماء بنت عمیس: «على‏ مثل جعفر فلتبک البواکی» «4»
__________________________________________________
(1)مسند أحمد 2: 40. Musnad Ahmad 2:40
(2)الاستیعاب (بهامش الاصابة) 1: 275، وعنه فی الفصول المهمة: 92. Al istiab (Bahaesh Al’asabat)1:275
(3)شفاء الغرام 2: 347. Shafa Alqaram 2:347
(4)أنساب الاشراف: 43. Ansab Al Ashraaf :43

 

https://makarem.ir/main.aspx?Reader=1&lid=0&typeinfo=33&catid=67559&mid=67559&pid=72730

 

https://books.google.com/books?id=tuxHCwAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PT158&amp;lpg=PT158&amp;dq=ولکن+الحمزه+لا+بواکی+له”&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=1M2SystZrP&amp;sig=MFx4Q03G5XlYic6avB-vIeDi4mg&amp;hl=fa&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=2ahUKEwjn7caeoP7bAhUJK1AKHdXDAnIQ6AEwAnoECAAQAQ#v=onepage&amp;q=ولکن الحمزه لا بواکی له”&amp;f=false

 

http://bahjat.ir/fa/content/193

http://www.rahgozareashegan.blogfa.com/post/65

 

 

After  that women cried over Hamzah (ra) before their martyrs and it was common between them Evan after death of Prophet (pbu) until Umayyad dynasty 

http://shamimshia.com/fa/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1832%3Aae4&catid=259%3Aae&Itemid=6

Edited by Ashvazdanghe
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1 hour ago, ShiaMan14 said:

People have sacrificed themselves and their loved ones for the love of AhlulBayt so you think wrong.

No one said it is wajib. ShiaChat is not part of Islam so you being on it is dumb too them...per your (il)logic.

And people have sacrificed themselves more often for their family and loved ones than for the "love of AhlulBayt," what's your point?

I'm not following your attempt at proving my "(il)logic)" wrong.  What you're basically saying is that anything I do that isn't part of Islam shows that I'm dumb.  In other words, me flying on a plane, or me using a computer, or, as you put it, being on ShiaChat.  But the issue with your "logic" is that I don't conflate Shiachat with part of my religion.  If someone thinks ShiaChat is dumb, I'm not going to call them dumber.

1 hour ago, ShiaMan14 said:

We are not talking about tatbir aka bloodletting, just regular matam using hands.

 

1 hour ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

ومن جملة الأدلة على‏ شرعیة البکاء على المیت تحریضه صلى الله علیه و آله على البکاء على المیت، وذلک أنه لما دخل المدینة بعد غزوة أحد ورأى النساء یبکین على‏ قتلاهن بکى‏ وقال: «أمّا حمزة فلا بواکی له»، وهذه العبارة صریحة فی أنه صلى الله علیه و آله حرّض النساء على البکاء على‏ حمزة، وکذا حرّض الناس البکاء على‏ جعفر بن أبی طالب‏
__________________________________________________
(1)سنن النسائی 4: 22، المصنف لابن أبی شیبة 3: 266، الفصول المهمة: 93.
(2)المصنف 3: 266.

from allowing crying on dead body ,prophet (pbu) ordered about crying over dead one , it’s proof is that when he entered Median after Uhuhd Battle (Qazvah) & saw women are crying on their dead ones cried & said <<but Hamzah doesn’t have someone to cry on him>> ,and this is a clear statement on that prophet (pbu) motivated women to cry on Hamzah ,and same as it motivated for crying over Jafar Ibn Abi Talib 

—————

Sunan An Nesaeei 4:22 Almusnaf Li Ibn Abi Shabbat 3:266 , Alfussol Almuhemmate :93

Almusnaf 3:266

 

حیث قال: «على‏ مثل جعفر فلتبک البواکی»، فلو کان البکاء على المیت غیر مشروع لمّا حرّض النبیُّ على‏ ذلک، وإلیک بعض ما ورد فی هذا المجال:
1- روى‏  musnad Ahmadأحمد فی مسنده: قال رجع رسول اللَّه (ص) من أحد، فجعلت نساء الأنصار یبکین على‏ مَن قتل من أزواجهن، فقال رسول اللَّه (ص): «ولکن حمزة لا بواکی له»، قال: ثم نام فانتبه وهنّ یبکین حمزة، قال: فهن الیوم إذا بکین یندبن حمزة .. «1»
2- قال ابن عبد البر فی ترجمة حمزة نقلًا عن الواقدی: لم تبک امرأة من الأنصار على‏ میت بعد قول رسول اللَّه: «لکن حمزة لا بواکی له» إلى الیوم إلّابدأت بالبکاء على حمزة «2»
3- وفی  Shafayab Alquram شفاء الغرام: فجاء نساء بنی عبد الأشهل لمّا سمعوا ذلک، فبکین على‏ عم رسول اللَّه (ص) ونحن على‏ باب المسجد، فلما سمعهن خرج إلیهن فقال: «ارجعن یرحمکن اللَّه فقد آسیتنّ بأنفسکنّ» «3»
4- وقال (ص) حینما أراد أن یخرج من بیت جعفر بعد أن عزى أسماء بنت عمیس: «على‏ مثل جعفر فلتبک البواکی» «4»
__________________________________________________
(1)مسند أحمد 2: 40. Musnad Ahmad 2:40
(2)الاستیعاب (بهامش الاصابة) 1: 275، وعنه فی الفصول المهمة: 92. Al istiab (Bahaesh Al’asabat)1:275
(3)شفاء الغرام 2: 347. Shafa Alqaram 2:347
(4)أنساب الاشراف: 43. Ansab Al Ashraaf :43

 

https://makarem.ir/main.aspx?Reader=1&lid=0&typeinfo=33&catid=67559&mid=67559&pid=72730

 

https://books.google.com/books?id=tuxHCwAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PT158&amp;lpg=PT158&amp;dq=ولکن+الحمزه+لا+بواکی+له”&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=1M2SystZrP&amp;sig=MFx4Q03G5XlYic6avB-vIeDi4mg&amp;hl=fa&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=2ahUKEwjn7caeoP7bAhUJK1AKHdXDAnIQ6AEwAnoECAAQAQ#v=onepage&amp;q=ولکن الحمزه لا بواکی له”&amp;f=false

 

http://bahjat.ir/fa/content/193

http://www.rahgozareashegan.blogfa.com/post/65

 

 

After  that women cried over Hamzah (ra) before their martyrs and it was common between them Evan after death of Prophet (pbu) until Umayyad dynasty 

http://shamimshia.com/fa/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1832%3Aae4&catid=259%3Aae&Itemid=6

Again, I just don't see where it mentions anywhere about using hands to hit yourself in mourning.  And that is the issue I'm stating.  Self harm, self-flagellation, bloody matam, whatever form it takes, doesn't seem inline with Islam.  Why not get tattoos showing your grief for Imam Hussein and his family?  Does doing something haram for a halal/pious purpose, make it halal?

 

I think not.  Therefore I stand by my opinion.

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1 hour ago, coldcow said:

I think not.  Therefore I stand by my opinion.

I will stand my opinion too , the mourning of Arabs & ancient cultures  is with self harming but you can’t experience real love to understand it ,it’s obvious from your profile name @coldcow ,I’ get cold :fever: from your name .

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1 hour ago, coldcow said:

Again, I just don't see where it mentions anywhere about using hands to hit yourself in mourning. 

:bismillah:

Surah Adh-Dhariyat, Verse 29:
فَأَقْبَلَتِ امْرَأَتُهُ فِي صَرَّةٍ فَصَكَّتْ وَجْهَهَا وَقَالَتْ عَجُوزٌ عَقِيمٌ

Then his wife came up in great grief, and she struck her face and said: An old barren woman!
(English - Shakir)

 

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2 hours ago, Salsabeel said:

What is self harm? According to you and according to Islam?

 

Well, I think the most extreme form of self harm would be suicide.  Then there's a spectrum ranging all the way down to inflicting pain on onself or doing something (such as smoking) that causes damage to onself or predisposes you to ailments.  Not sure what the Islamic definition is - or if there even is one.  Perhaps when God said don't harm yourself (in other words) he assumed we'd know what it mean't.

2 hours ago, Salsabeel said:

:bismillah:

Surah Adh-Dhariyat, Verse 29:
فَأَقْبَلَتِ امْرَأَتُهُ فِي صَرَّةٍ فَصَكَّتْ وَجْهَهَا وَقَالَتْ عَجُوزٌ عَقِيمٌ

Then his wife came up in great grief, and she struck her face and said: An old barren woman!
 (English - Shakir)

 

What is that surah about?  I think you should read the tafseer on that verse.  There is no mourning involved, nor does it suggest that matam is a part of religion (the original premise behind our debate).  If my understanding is correct, her "striking her face" would be in a similar context to a woman today saying/acting like "woe is me."  In other words, "how am I, an old barren woman to bare a child?!"  And if you do a google image search of "woe is me woman" you get a bunch of pictures of women doing what is described.  

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11 hours ago, coldcow said:

Not sure what the Islamic definition is - or if there even is one.  

If so, on what basis you have said that "self harm doesn't seem inline with Islam"? 
 

11 hours ago, coldcow said:

Perhaps when God said don't harm yourself (in other words) he assumed we'd know what it mean't.

:) People sometimes harm their selves to protect & prevent others, as well as to maintain the difference between haqq & batil. People chose to receive the pain & give comfort to others for instance blood donation and organ donation, feeding the poor while staying hungry, denying to pledge allegiance to a sinful & criminal governor who threatening to behead if not pledged the allegiance to him.  
 

11 hours ago, coldcow said:

I think you should read the tafseer on that verse.  

Don't think that I am referring you a verse without being knowing about its tafseer. You have asked for "something" which can confirm you the use of hands to hit oneself.

Apart from that verse people hit themselves in many different ways, what about clapping? hitting one hand on another to express your joyful emotions , ohhh man you are hurting yourself!!! 
What about hitting hand on thigh? expressing your emotion as you missed a great chance!!!! Many companions used to hit their hands on their thighs... 
what about hitting hand on head? expressing your emotions as you did a blunder or forgot any important event !!!! 

As per your definition of self harm, you must prohibit people from expressing every sort of emotions. 
 

11 hours ago, coldcow said:

There is no mourning involved, nor does it suggest that matam is a part of religion (the original premise behind our debate). 

Mourning is not a part of religion, it is just an expression of emotion. And let me present you verses which mentions that who has created these emotions:

 وَأَنَّهُ هُوَ أَضْحَكَ وَأَبْكَى
53:43 and that it is He alone who causes [you] to laugh and to weep;

وَجَعَلَ بَيْنَكُم مَّوَدَّةً وَرَحْمَةً 
30:21 and He engenders love and tenderness between you

So one can express his emotions of grief by hitting hands on his head or on his chest to the extent that they start bleeding. The main agent behind such action is the "mawaddat" (love) in one's heart for other. And the "mawaddat" of Ahlul Bayt (asws) is above every sort of love. The father of Prophet Yusuf cried so much that he lost his vision, what a great harm he inflicted upon himself by crying so much for his son. What agent was behind such an extraordinary expression of his emotions? And what definition one can set for self harm here?
  
So until there is no proper definition of self harm with you, don't try to declare anything as "not inline with Islam". Suicide is self harm and it is prohibited in Quran straight forwardly. This does not mean we cannot put ourselves into any sort of hardship or we are prohibited to express the emotions.  

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12 hours ago, Salsabeel said:

If so, on what basis you have said that "self harm doesn't seem inline with Islam"? 
  

:) People sometimes harm their selves to protect & prevent others, as well as to maintain the difference between haqq & batil. People chose to receive the pain & give comfort to others for instance blood donation and organ donation, feeding the poor while staying hungry, denying to pledge allegiance to a sinful & criminal governor who threatening to behead if not pledged the allegiance to him.  
 

Don't think that I am referring you a verse without being knowing about its tafseer. You have asked for "something" which can confirm you the use of hands to hit oneself.

Apart from that verse people hit themselves in many different ways, what about clapping? hitting one hand on another to express your joyful emotions , ohhh man you are hurting yourself!!! 
What about hitting hand on thigh? expressing your emotion as you missed a great chance!!!! Many companions used to hit their hands on their thighs... 
what about hitting hand on head? expressing your emotions as you did a blunder or forgot any important event !!!! 

As per your definition of self harm, you must prohibit people from expressing every sort of emotions. 
 

Mourning is not a part of religion, it is just an expression of emotion. And let me present you verses which mentions that who has created these emotions:

 وَأَنَّهُ هُوَ أَضْحَكَ وَأَبْكَى
53:43 and that it is He alone who causes [you] to laugh and to weep;

وَجَعَلَ بَيْنَكُم مَّوَدَّةً وَرَحْمَةً 
30:21 and He engenders love and tenderness between you

So one can express his emotions of grief by hitting hands on his head or on his chest to the extent that they start bleeding. The main agent behind such action is the "mawaddat" (love) in one's heart for other. And the "mawaddat" of Ahlul Bayt (asws) is above every sort of love. The father of Prophet Yusuf cried so much that he lost his vision, what a great harm he inflicted upon himself by crying so much for his son. What agent was behind such an extraordinary expression of his emotions? And what definition one can set for self harm here?
  
So until there is no proper definition of self harm with you, don't try to declare anything as "not inline with Islam". Suicide is self harm and it is prohibited in Quran straight forwardly. This does not mean we cannot put ourselves into any sort of hardship or we are prohibited to express the emotions.  

It would appear you're being intentionally callow in trying to defend your point and disprove mine.  

“He is not one of us who strikes his cheeks, rends his garment, or cries with the cry of the Jaahiliyyah.”

you know what's interesting is it's hard to google islamic definitions of self harm without coming up with sites that are dedicated to showing that matam is haram.

http://english.khamenei.ir/news/4209/Tatbir-is-a-wrongful-and-fabricated-tradition-Imam-Khamenei

What is interesting is how some followers of Khamenei rejected his views. 

Again, do whatever you want.  Cut yourself, if you think that level of self-harm is permissible.  Just don't try and convince people that matam is a part of religion.  Or do.  Only you will have to answer for your actions.  

Edited by coldcow
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8 hours ago, coldcow said:

It would appear you're being intentionally callow in trying to defend your point and disprove mine. 

You should review your point, that's all I want. Ayatullah Khamenei has not declared haram, the chest beating & mourning for Imam Hussain (asws).
 

8 hours ago, coldcow said:

“He is not one of us who strikes his cheeks, rends his garment, or cries with the cry of the Jaahiliyyah.”

Perhaps you think that Ayatullah Khamenei is unaware of this hadith as well as those ahadith which commands us to organize majalis for Imam Hussain (asws). 

8 hours ago, coldcow said:

Again, do whatever you want.  Cut yourself, if you think that level of self-harm is permissible.  Just don't try and convince people that matam is a part of religion.  Or do.  Only you will have to answer for your actions.  

I jumped into this discussions only when you objected the matam which is in the form of beating the chest. And I have only challenged your objection on chest beating, and never declared matam as a part of religion, so you don't really need to speak lie about me. This is what you said earlier:

On 7/1/2018 at 10:57 PM, coldcow said:

Again, I just don't see where it mentions anywhere about using hands to hit yourself in mourning.  And that is the issue I'm stating.  Self harm, self-flagellation, bloody matam, whatever form it takes, doesn't seem inline with Islam.

You are against every sort of matam, scholars have difference of opinion only in blood matam i.e., tatbir & zanjir zani etc. They all unanimously accept that chest beating for Imam e Mazloom is allowed and deemed it permissible. Otherwise, please show me any fatwa which prohibits the act of chest beating for Imam Hussain (asws).

For the reference purpose, here are few links which can help you to learn more about the history & philosophy of mourning:

https://www.al-islam.org/articles/history-and-philosophy-aza-of-imam-husayn-mulla-bashir-rahim

https://www.al-islam.org/uprising-ashura-and-responses-doubts-ali-asghar-ridwani/psychology-mourning

And your referred link just showing the remarks of Ayatullah Khamenei about tatbir only. You on the other hand trying to criticize every sort of matam while hiding behind the fatwa of Ayatullah against tatbir. You don't really need to hide yourself, come up openly even if you're a shia reformist or a sunni or a nasibi.  


 

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6 hours ago, Salsabeel said:

You should review your point, that's all I want. Ayatullah Khamenei has not declared haram, the chest beating & mourning for Imam Hussain (asws).
 

Perhaps you think that Ayatullah Khamenei is unaware of this hadith as well as those ahadith which commands us to organize majalis for Imam Hussain (asws). 

I jumped into this discussions only when you objected the matam which is in the form of beating the chest. And I have only challenged your objection on chest beating, and never declared matam as a part of religion, so you don't really need to speak lie about me. This is what you said earlier:

You are against every sort of matam, scholars have difference of opinion only in blood matam i.e., tatbir & zanjir zani etc. They all unanimously accept that chest beating for Imam e Mazloom is allowed and deemed it permissible. Otherwise, please show me any fatwa which prohibits the act of chest beating for Imam Hussain (asws).

For the reference purpose, here are few links which can help you to learn more about the history & philosophy of mourning:

https://www.al-islam.org/articles/history-and-philosophy-aza-of-imam-husayn-mulla-bashir-rahim

https://www.al-islam.org/uprising-ashura-and-responses-doubts-ali-asghar-ridwani/psychology-mourning

And your referred link just showing the remarks of Ayatullah Khamenei about tatbir only. You on the other hand trying to criticize every sort of matam while hiding behind the fatwa of Ayatullah against tatbir. You don't really need to hide yourself, come up openly even if you're a shia reformist or a sunni or a nasibi.  


 

I don't know what a nasibi is.  Maybe I'm a reformist?  I don't know, I just do what I think's right, try to avoid labels. 

But to clarify, my objection to matam is the ritualistic hitting of oneself in a manner designed to inflict pain or damage onto oneself.  In other words, you don't need to hit yourself hard enough to leave a mark, or break skin, and you don't need to encourage those around you at a majlis to do the same.  And again, we've allowed what should be a personal thing, letting people grieve however they see fit, into a ritual and conflated it with religion.  We kiss and bow towards an alam, rub it and then rub our children with the same hand, as if to transfer something good from what essentially amounts to an icon.  But I digress.

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It always starts with tatbir and slow but surely inches towards other aspects of azadari in the name of reforming shias or helping us help ourselves.

On 7/1/2018 at 12:57 PM, coldcow said:

And people have sacrificed themselves more often for their family and loved ones than for the "love of AhlulBayt," what's your point?

We are not talking about sacrificing in isolation but when AhlulBayt come into discussion.

Let's make it simple - have people sacrificed AhluBayt to protect their families or sacrificed their family & possessions for AhlulBayt?

On 7/1/2018 at 12:57 PM, coldcow said:

I'm not following your attempt at proving my "(il)logic)" wrong.  What you're basically saying is that anything I do that isn't part of Islam shows that I'm dumb.  In other words, me flying on a plane, or me using a computer, or, as you put it, being on ShiaChat.  But the issue with your "logic" is that I don't conflate Shiachat with part of my religion.  If someone thinks ShiaChat is dumb, I'm not going to call them dumber.

That's your logic. You said because matam is not written anywhere, it is wrong to do. I can cite millions of reasons that are not written anywhere but still done.

If you have ever read the Quran in any language other than Arabic, it would be bidah per your logic.

As a matter of fact, reading Quran with Dia critic marks is wrong then since it came much after the Prophet. 

So change your stance about "matam never happened" and then we can delve into why do matam.

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14 hours ago, coldcow said:

In other words, you don't need to hit yourself hard enough to leave a mark, or break skin, and you don't need to encourage those around you at a majlis to do the same

The Night Before Ashura

The night before Ashura, when Imam al-Husayn (a) withdrew the allegiance of his companions and household and gave them the permission to run away and save their lives, every one of his companions declared their allegiance and faithfulness to him. After members of Imam al-Husayn's (a) household expressed their allegiances, Muslim b. 'Awsaja al-Asadi declared his faithfulness. Then Zuhayr b. al-Qayn stood up and said:

"I swear to God that I want to be killed, then be alive again, and then be killed again for a thousand times so that God protects you and your household from being killed".
 
http://en.wikishia.net/view/Zuhayr_b._al-Qayn
 
وَلَئِن مُّتُّمْ أَوْ قُتِلْتُمْ لَإِلَى اللَّـهِ تُحْشَرُونَ ﴿١٥٨
 
And if indeed you die or you are slain, certainly to Allah shall you be gathered together. (158)
 
http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.shakir/3:158
 
امام حسین(ع)
فان تکن الابدان للموت انشئت‏ فقتل امرء فى اللّه بالسّیف افضل
 
 
Imam Hussain (as)
if your bodies redy for death so martyrdom in way of Allah with sword is the best way
 
https://www.tasnimnews.com/fa/news/1396/07/15/1538745/سخنان-زهیربن-قین-در-شب-عاشورا-ترجمان-کدام-آیه-قرآن-است-فیلم?ref=tnews
 
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On 7/1/2018 at 11:11 AM, coldcow said:

 That's a great line to tell people to show your devotion to your religion/Imams, but in actuality it's hard to replicate the type of bond you develop with a loved one compared with a historical/religious figure you only read and hear about.  

"May my father and mother be ransoms for you."

بِابِي انْتَ وَامِّي

bi'ab¢ anta wa umm¢

http://www.duas.org/ashura/z_ashura.htm

*****

"(Salutations from the one) whose soul is a sacrifice for yours,

wa rūħuhu li rūħika fidā',

وَ رُوحُهُ لِرُوحِكَ فِداءٌ،

and whose family is a shield for yours.

wa 'ahluhu li 'ahlika wiqā',

وَ أهْلُهُ لِأهْلِكَ وِقاءٌ،

http://www.duas.org/ziaratnahiya.htm

 

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On 7/1/2018 at 9:50 AM, coldcow said:

you don't need to cause yourself harm and/or pain to show that you are grieving. 

"I will, therefore, lament you morning and evening, and will weep blood in place of tears, out of my anguish for you and my sorrow for all that befell you,"

Fala'andubannaka šabāħan wa masā'ā, wa la'abkiyanna laka badalad-dumūi damā, ħasratan alayka wa ta'assufan alā mā dahāka wa talahhufā,

فَلَأَنْدُبَنَّكَ صَباحاً وَ مَساءً وَ لَأَبْكِيَنَّ لَكَ بَدَلَ الدُّمُوعِ دَماً، حَسْرَةً عَلَيْكَ وَ تَأسُّفاً عَلى ما دَهاكَ وَ تَلَهُّفاً

http://www.duas.org/ziaratnahiya.htm

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On 5/18/2018 at 5:43 AM, KnoXbar said:

Salam . . . 

as i always try to explain in my posts that i am just a beginner in research on shiasm in the search of truth as i will never want to hurt someone's feeling at any level and if you find anything hurtful from my side i apologies in advance as my intention is just to know and learn + please avoid my bad english as well as i am not too good in it . . . 

so the question that i mostly asked about is MATAM . . . yes i do know that EVERY human being will cry after listening to masaaib of Karbala and after that . . . but i am unable to understand the current form of matam . . . beaten urself in deep grief looks fine to me but the way people do matam in sub-continent is it good? is there any hadiths about it? 

Its a way of life. (In Public). For the World to see and ponder. No more hiding the Truth.

 

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On 7/3/2018 at 10:03 AM, coldcow said:

I don't know what a nasibi is.  Maybe I'm a reformist?  I don't know, I just do what I think's right, try to avoid labels. 

But to clarify, my objection to matam is the ritualistic hitting of oneself in a manner designed to inflict pain or damage onto oneself.  In other words, you don't need to hit yourself hard enough to leave a mark, or break skin, and you don't need to encourage those around you at a majlis to do the same.  And again, we've allowed what should be a personal thing, letting people grieve however they see fit, into a ritual and conflated it with religion.  We kiss and bow towards an alam, rub it and then rub our children with the same hand, as if to transfer something good from what essentially amounts to an icon.  But I digress.

Just some advice from my experience—don’t use the word ‘reformist’ around here. The extremists will try to belittle your sincerity by calling you a wahhabi agent. To them, reformist = wahhabi.

Also, while I agree with your stance, you will not win this battle with malangs. Matam is the core tenant of Islam to them and by questioning matam, it somehow puts you on team Yazid according to the malangs.

Edited by 786:)
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4 hours ago, 786:) said:

Just some advice from my experience—don’t use the word ‘reformist’ around here. The extremists will try to belittle your sincerity by calling you a wahhabi agent. To them, reformist = wahhabi.

Also, while I agree with your stance, you will not win this battle with malangs. Matam is the core tenant of Islam to them and by questioning matam, it somehow puts you on team Yazid according to the malangs.

Thanks, someone else tried calling me that, so I just quoted them.  I have no idea what it means in their context.  As far as I'm concerned it's just another meaningless label.

And it's interesting how people clutch to their beliefs, and when they are questioned they just clutch harder.  Almost like an act of intentional defiance.  I think when the prophet approached the Christians (or someone else, perhaps pagans? I don't know) their excuse was something like "but this is the way of our ancestors," "this is how we were taught."  Not an actual quote, but something to that effect.  

I'm convinced that the driving wedge between sunnis and shias gets bigger and bigger as time goes on because both clutch tighter and tighter to their own ways while criticizing each other.  This leads to further drive into things that aren't in our religion.  For example, the matam with blades.  Spilling your own blood, a najis substance.  How do you pray after that?  And then when a very high scholar issues a fatwa against it, some reject it and find another marja that tells them what they want to hear.  That's thinking with passion and not with your brain.

And that's how I view matam.  We get caught up in the passion and fervor of beating ourselves because we've seen others do it, so we teach our children that "this is the correct way" to mourn the imams.  If it was a genuine, organic mourning, people would do it however they felt appropriate.  There wouldn't be any ritualistic slapping of oneself.  But I digress in my rant.  As one poster said above "Message is out and will not stop. Its our life."  They want to do just as their ancestors did.

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6 hours ago, 786:) said:

Just some advice from my experience—don’t use the word ‘reformist’ around here. The extremists will try to belittle your sincerity by calling you a wahhabi agent. To them, reformist = wahhabi.

@coldcow - next he will tell you to start following a random guy on the Internet.

6 hours ago, 786:) said:

Also, while I agree with your stance, you will not win this battle with malangs. Matam is the core tenant of Islam to them and by questioning matam, it somehow puts you on team Yazid according to the malangs.

Matam is neither part of usul-e-deen not part of furuh-e-deen. Does your random Internet guy has his own set of usul-e-deen and furuh-e-deen?

3 hours ago, shiasoldier786 said:

Muharram has come early... azadari threads already started...

You will notice that OP started the thread and hasn't returned and someone else has taken the mantle. Call me a conspiracy theorist...

2 hours ago, coldcow said:

Thanks, someone else tried calling me that, so I just quoted them.  I have no idea what it means in their context.  As far as I'm concerned it's just another meaningless label.

And it's interesting how people clutch to their beliefs, and when they are questioned they just clutch harder.  Almost like an act of intentional defiance.  I think when the prophet approached the Christians (or someone else, perhaps pagans? I don't know) their excuse was something like "but this is the way of our ancestors," "this is how we were taught."  Not an actual quote, but something to that effect.  

I'm convinced that the driving wedge between sunnis and shias gets bigger and bigger as time goes on because both clutch tighter and tighter to their own ways while criticizing each other.  This leads to further drive into things that aren't in our religion.  For example, the matam with blades.  Spilling your own blood, a najis substance.  How do you pray after that?  And then when a very high scholar issues a fatwa against it, some reject it and find another marja that tells them what they want to hear.  That's thinking with passion and not with your brain.

And that's how I view matam.  We get caught up in the passion and fervor of beating ourselves because we've seen others do it, so we teach our children that "this is the correct way" to mourn the imams.  If it was a genuine, organic mourning, people would do it however they felt appropriate.  There wouldn't be any ritualistic slapping of oneself.  But I digress in my rant.  As one poster said above "Message is out and will not stop. Its our life."  They want to do just as their ancestors did.

So just matam attack didn't work so reverting back to tatbir... I called out that strategy above.

I do matam and I teach my children to do matam. You don't do matam and you don't teach your children to do matam.

I am not forcing you to do matam so why do you feel obliged to force people to stop.

Speaking of the Prophet and people from that time, the Prophet and early Muslims were persecuted by Pagans even though the Muslims kept to themselves. They did not enforce their views onto them yet they were still marginalized, harassed and persecuted...which is your veiled attempt here. I guess you just want to do what your ancestors did.

 

 

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