Prophet's (PBUH) Marriage with Ayesha . . .

[KnoXbar]

Salam . . .

Normally i belong to a sunni school of thought and doing a bit research about Shiasm in the search to find the truth as i can see flaws in sunni hadiths and in other things . . . the questions i ask here are those which i want to be answered + questions that people ask me so here is the another one . . .

what were the reasons and circumstances that Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) got married with ayesha according to Shia references ??? 

[Kirmani]

Salaam, I don't know the hadiths off hand (maybe someone can help me here) but I believe the Prophet's S.A.W marriage to both Ayesha and Hafsa was to establish ties with Abu Bakr and Umar's tribes.

[Panzerwaffe]

Does it matter? He found her attractive and married her 

That's a perfectly normal reason

Per Sunni hadith prophet says superiority of aisha over other women is like thaarad over other food , so he wasn't referring to her piety when he made the food comparison was he ?  

Edited May 16, 2018 by Panzerwaffe

[KnoXbar]

1 hour ago, Kirmani said:

Salaam, I don't know the hadiths off hand (maybe someone can help me here) but I believe the Prophet's S.A.W marriage to both Ayesha and Hafsa was to establish ties with Abu Bakr and Umar's tribes.

W Salam . . . And in this context maybe we can add that thats why all of them didnt have any biological children from the Prophet SAW? Except hazrat Khadija SAW? Because these all marriages was to establish ties amongs the tribes OR the people want to give their daughters in the Nikah of the Prophet SAW so that this can be beneficial for them in the world and in Qiyamah too???

[KnoXbar]

23 minutes ago, Panzerwaffe said:

Does it matter? He found her attractive and married her 

That's a perfectly normal reason

Per Sunni hadith prophet says superiority of aisha over other women is like thaarad over other food , so he wasn't referring to her piety when he made the food comparison was he ?  

I think it does matter . . . You cant say this as an argument to someone as i said i have to answer someone about this as standing of shia point of view + they will quote bunch of hadiths from sunni refetences that shows that ayesha was on a high rank on piety

[Muslim2010]

In principle, it can be stated that the marri- ages were contracted with one or more of the following objectives:-

(1) For the sake of caring for the orphans and looking after the poor widows. These were some Muslim women who had earlier enjoyed high dignity in the Arab society.

But on the death of their husbands, their status and even faith were in jeopardy, because their tribal chiefs would take them back and compel them to renounce Islam, thus converting them back to polytheism.

For example, Sawdah had migrated to Abys- sinia where her husband died, and she became absolutely without helper. It was the time when the Prophet had lost Khadijah, his first wife; so he married Sawdah.

Likewise, Zaynab daughter of Khuzaymah, was an old-aged widow, who after the death of her husband was inflicted with poverty, despite her being amiable and being known as 'Ummul-Masa- kin' ( Mother of the poor).

The Prophet married her to uphold her dignity and she died of old age only after two years of that marriage.

(2) For the sake of enacting a new law and eradicating injustice by the ignorant tribes. For example, Zaynab bint-Jahsh was the daughter of the Prophet's aunt.

She was married, at the reco- mmendation of the Prophet, to Zayd ibn-Harithah, the freed slave and adopted son of the Prophet.

This marriage was contracted to eradicate the dis- crimination against slaves and poor and to empha- size the Islamic equality and brotherhood, as Zay- nab was from the family of `Abd al-Muttalib, the grandfather of the Holy Prophet and the Chief of Quraysh, whereas Zayd was a slave who was freed by the Prophet.

Unfortunately, Zaynab due to her family pride, did not get along well with Zayd despite Prophet's persuations. The rift between the two culminated into divorce.

Meanwhile, the system of adoption of children was expressly forbidden by Allah. So, when Zayd divorced Zaynab, the Pro- phet of Islam,

at the express command of God, married Zaynab; and, thus, put an end to the then prevalent belief that adopted sons were like real sons and that wives or widows of adopted sons were like daughters-in-laws.

(3) For the sake of freeing prisoners and slaves. For example, 'Juwayriyah' was from a pro- minent tribe of Banul-Mustalaq. In a war against Islam this tribe was defeated; and Juwayriyah, the daughter of their Chief, was held in captivity.

The Prophet married her to set an example of protection and good treatment to prisoners of war. On seeing that the prisoners had become relatives of the Holy Prophet by marriage, the Muslims released all the prisoners of war held by them. According to Ibne Hisham, over one hundred families of Banul-Mustalaq were freed from cap- tivity as a result of this marriage.

(4) For the sake of uniting some prominent Arab tribes who often were at logger heads with each other and to safeguard the internal political status of Islam.

The Prophet married `Aishah daughter of Abu Bakr from the tribe of Bani Tim, Hafsah daughter of `Umar ibn AI-Khattab from the tribe of Adi, Umm-Habibah daughter of Abu Sufyan from the tribe of Umayyah, Safiyah daughter of Huaiy bin Akhtab of the Jewish tribe of Bani an-Nadir, and Maymunah from the tribe of Bani Makhzum.

Umm-Habibah (i.e. Ramla) was daughter of Abu Sufyan of Bani Umayyah who was the bitte- rest enemy of the Prophet and had repeatedly fought against him.

She, as a Muslim, was in great distress since she was divorced from her original husband (who had become a Christian in Abyssi- nia) and her father was a great enemy of Islam.

Seeing her deprived of every help from parent and divorced from husband, the Prophet married her in sympathy. This marriage also gave a chance to the people of Bani Umayyah to soften their hearts for Islam.

Safiyah was widowed daughter of Huaiy bin Akhtab, one of the chiefs of Jewish tribe of Bani an-Nadir.

When the prisoners of this tribe were released by the Muslims, the Prophet married her in order to safeguard her status; and, thus, also linking himself with one of the great Jewish tri- bes of that time, and paving the way for , them to come nearer to Islam.

http://www.shiavault.com/books/the-philosophy-of-marriages-of-prophet-muhammad-s-a-w/chapters/4-list-of-wives-of-the-prophet-of-islam

[Ashvazdanghe]

4 hours ago, Panzerwaffe said:

Does it matter? He found her attractive and married her 

That's a perfectly normal reason

Per Sunni hadith prophet says superiority of aisha over other women is like thaarad over other food , so he wasn't referring to her piety when he made the food comparison was he ?  

Salam based on Sahih  Sunni Hadiths prophet until his last days was prefering Lady Khadija  (sa) &her offspring  to his other wives &  Aysha was jealous about her position, so preferring her is nonsense.

[KnoXbar]

Quote

In principle, it can be stated that the marri- ages were contracted with one or more of the following objectives:-

(1) For the sake of caring for the orphans and looking after the poor widows. These were some Muslim women who had earlier enjoyed high dignity in the Arab society.

But on the death of their husbands, their status and even faith were in jeopardy, because their tribal chiefs would take them back and compel them to renounce Islam, thus converting them back to polytheism.

For example, Sawdah had migrated to Abys- sinia where her husband died, and she became absolutely without helper. It was the time when the Prophet had lost Khadijah, his first wife; so he married Sawdah.

Likewise, Zaynab daughter of Khuzaymah, was an old-aged widow, who after the death of her husband was inflicted with poverty, despite her being amiable and being known as 'Ummul-Masa- kin' ( Mother of the poor).

The Prophet married her to uphold her dignity and she died of old age only after two years of that marriage.

(2) For the sake of enacting a new law and eradicating injustice by the ignorant tribes. For example, Zaynab bint-Jahsh was the daughter of the Prophet's aunt.

She was married, at the reco- mmendation of the Prophet, to Zayd ibn-Harithah, the freed slave and adopted son of the Prophet.

This marriage was contracted to eradicate the dis- crimination against slaves and poor and to empha- size the Islamic equality and brotherhood, as Zay- nab was from the family of `Abd al-Muttalib, the grandfather of the Holy Prophet and the Chief of Quraysh, whereas Zayd was a slave who was freed by the Prophet.

Unfortunately, Zaynab due to her family pride, did not get along well with Zayd despite Prophet's persuations. The rift between the two culminated into divorce.

Meanwhile, the system of adoption of children was expressly forbidden by Allah. So, when Zayd divorced Zaynab, the Pro- phet of Islam,

at the express command of God, married Zaynab; and, thus, put an end to the then prevalent belief that adopted sons were like real sons and that wives or widows of adopted sons were like daughters-in-laws.

(3) For the sake of freeing prisoners and slaves. For example, 'Juwayriyah' was from a pro- minent tribe of Banul-Mustalaq. In a war against Islam this tribe was defeated; and Juwayriyah, the daughter of their Chief, was held in captivity.

The Prophet married her to set an example of protection and good treatment to prisoners of war. On seeing that the prisoners had become relatives of the Holy Prophet by marriage, the Muslims released all the prisoners of war held by them. According to Ibne Hisham, over one hundred families of Banul-Mustalaq were freed from cap- tivity as a result of this marriage.

(4) For the sake of uniting some prominent Arab tribes who often were at logger heads with each other and to safeguard the internal political status of Islam.

The Prophet married `Aishah daughter of Abu Bakr from the tribe of Bani Tim, Hafsah daughter of `Umar ibn AI-Khattab from the tribe of Adi, Umm-Habibah daughter of Abu Sufyan from the tribe of Umayyah, Safiyah daughter of Huaiy bin Akhtab of the Jewish tribe of Bani an-Nadir, and Maymunah from the tribe of Bani Makhzum.

Umm-Habibah (i.e. Ramla) was daughter of Abu Sufyan of Bani Umayyah who was the bitte- rest enemy of the Prophet and had repeatedly fought against him.

She, as a Muslim, was in great distress since she was divorced from her original husband (who had become a Christian in Abyssi- nia) and her father was a great enemy of Islam.

Seeing her deprived of every help from parent and divorced from husband, the Prophet married her in sympathy. This marriage also gave a chance to the people of Bani Umayyah to soften their hearts for Islam.

Safiyah was widowed daughter of Huaiy bin Akhtab, one of the chiefs of Jewish tribe of Bani an-Nadir.

When the prisoners of this tribe were released by the Muslims, the Prophet married her in order to safeguard her status; and, thus, also linking himself with one of the great Jewish tri- bes of that time, and paving the way for , them to come nearer to Islam.

http://www.shiavault.com/books/the-philosophy-of-marriages-of-prophet-muhammad-s-a-w/chapters/4-list-of-wives-of-the-prophet-of-islam

Thanks alot brother .  . . This will help in many matters . . .. 

[Ashvazdanghe]

related thread

 

[Panzerwaffe]

On 5/16/2018 at 11:12 AM, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam based on Sahih  Sunni Hadiths prophet until his last days was prefering Lady Khadija  (sa) &her offspring  to his other wives &  Aysha was jealous about her position, so preferring her is nonsense.

And ? 
ofcourse khadija was a much better lady 

The Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) cannot marry someone for just looks ? 
 

preference over  other women ( IF this Sunni Hadith is correct ) maybe just based on looks 

God knows best 

Edited October 31 by Panzerwaffe

[PureExistence1]

1 hour ago, Panzerwaffe said:

The Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) cannot marry someone for just looks ? 

Salam,

Unlikely considering how "not of this world" he was, meaning, his nature being one of spirituality and not basefulness. He wasnt even looking to get married. He was kinda coerced into it...Im thinking it wouldve been a shallow move on his part, astagfirullah, to marry just for looks, but what do i know?

[Ashvazdanghe]

2 hours ago, PureExistence1 said:

Im thinking it wouldve been a shallow move on his part, astagfirullah, to marry just for looks, but what do i know?

Salam surely prophet Muhammad (pbu) has not married just for looks which even according to Sunni sources majority of his wives have been aged or widow women just spreading Islam peacefully among Arab tribes by marrying pact with a high ranking member of the Arab tribe ;  which some of them even have children from their ex-husband(s)  although some of them likewise lady Maria al-Qibtiyya has been a young good looking woman because she has given as slave to prophet Muhammad (pbu) by governor of Alexandria which some of his wives likewise Ayesha has had sense of jealously about her ; which due that some narrations in Sunni sources have been fabricated in her favor in order to give superiority to her & her father to justify  usurping right of lady Fatima & Imam Ali(عليه السلام) by degrading status of her mother the mother of believers lady Khadija which in similar fashion other hadiths have been fabricated to degrade status of other wives of prophet Muhammad (pbu) likewise  lady Maria al-Qibtiyya in order to just focus on Ayesha as only important wife of him which Astaghfurilah prophet has attracted just to her due her good looking  & youngness which even her closest Ally Hafsa has been ignored widely by Sunni narrations.

 

Notice it's from Wikipedia which just repersents sunni viewpoint

Quote

Anas said: The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) had a female-slave (amat) with whom he had intercourse, but 'Aishah and Hafsah would not leave him alone until he said that she was forbidden for him. Then Allah, the Mighty and Sublime, revealed: "O Prophet! Why do you forbid (for yourself) that which Allah has allowed to you.' until the end of the Verse."^[25]

 "Sunan an-Nasa'i 3959 - The Book of the Kind Treatment of Women - كتاب عشرة النساء - Sunnah.com - Sayings and Teachings of Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه و سلم)". sunnah.com. Retrieved 2021-08-20.

 

 

Quote

The 'female-slave' referred to in this narration was Maria, the Copt, as specified in a hadith attributed to Umar and classified as sahih by Ibn Kathir, which names her Umm Ibrahim (the mother of Ibrahim).[26]

 al-Maqdisi, Dia Uddin (2000). al-Ahadith al-Mukhtara. Vol. 1. Dar al-Kidr. p. 299-300. The Prophet said to Hafsa: 'Do not mention it to anyone, the mother of Ibrahim (i.e. Maria) is forbidden unto me.' She said, 'Do you forbid yourself what Allah has made lawful to you?' He replied, 'By Allah I will not be intimate with her.' 'Umar said, 'He did not have intimacy with Maria whereas Hafsa mentioned it to 'Aisha upon which Allah revealed, 'Allah has already sanctioned (a way) for you (believers) to absolve yourselves from your oaths'(Qur'an 66:2)

I make you witness that I my concubine (surriyyati) is now forbidden unto me.[27]

 Reported by Ibn 'Abbas: Al-Tabari, Ibn Jarir, Jami' al-Bayan fi Tafsir al-Qur'an, (Beirut: al-Resalah Publishers, 2000) Vol.23, 477-478; al-Baihaqi, Abu Bakr, al-Sunan al-Kubra, (Beirut: DKI, 2003) Hadith 15075; Ibn al-Jawzi, Abu al-Farj, al-Tahqiq fi Ahadith al-Khilaf, (Beirut: DKI, 1415 AH) Vol.2, 379; It comes through an isnad involving 'Atiyah al-'Awfi and his descendants. Though criticized otherwise, the tafsir reports through this isnad are accepted since they are known to have been transmitted in writing. See, al-Turifi, 'Abdul 'Aziz, al-Taqrir fi Asanid al-Tafsir, (Riyadh: Dar al-Minhaj, 2011) 67-68

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maria_al-Qibtiyya

 

Quote

Some Islamic scholars point to a different Asbāb al-nuzūl (circumstance of revelation) for the above incident, saying it was only caused by Muhammad drinking honey, as narrated in Sahih al-Bukhari by Muhammed's wife Aisha:[14][15][16]

The Prophet (ﷺ) used to stay (for a period) in the house of Zaynab bint Jahsh (one of the wives of the Prophet ) and he used to drink honey in her house. Hafsa bint Umar and I decided that when the Prophet (ﷺ) entered upon either of us, she would say, "I smell in you the bad smell of Maghafir (a bad smelling raisin). Have you eaten Maghafir?" When he entered upon one of us, she said that to him. He replied (to her), "No, but I have drunk honey in the house of Zaynab bint Jahsh, and I will never drink it again."

[17]

 "Oaths and Vows (كتاب الأيمان والنذور) - Sunnah.com - Sayings and Teachings of Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه و سلم)". sunnah.com. Retrieved 2024-10-07.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maria_al-Qibtiyya

 

Was Maria al-Qibtiyya a concubine or wife of the Prophet Muhammad (s)? Is she considered an Umm al-Mu'minin like the other noble wives of the Prophet?

Lady Maria daughter of Sham'oon known as Maria Al-Qibtiyyah, is one of the wives of the Prophet Muhammad (SAWA) and Ummul Mo'mineen.

She was well behaving and pious follower of the Prophet (SAWA). Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) granted the Prophet from Maria a son(Ebraheem) who passed away during his childhood.

'Aysha daughter of Abu Bakr who was also among the wives of the Prophet, did not like Maria and she has stated (according to Sunni books) that she was feeling jealous from Maria more than other wives. This was behind the trend of the followers of 'Aysha against Maria and claiming that she was not a wife but just concubine.

Lady Maria was not only a wife of the Prophet (SAWA) but also was one of the best of his wives in Madina, as far as her Faith and obedience.

Lady Maria was accused by some hypocrites including two of wived of the Prophet and their people, that her child Ebraheem was not from the Prophet (SAWA) but from another person. The story of this false allegation was mentioned in Quran and known by Al-Efk.

Wassalam.

https://www.al-islam.org/ask/was-maria-al-qibtiyya-a-concubine-or-wife-of-the-prophet-muhammad-s-is-she-considered-an-umm-al-muminin-like-the-other-noble-wives-of-the-prophet/sayyed-mohammad-al-musawi

https://www.al-islam.org/person/maria-al-qibtiyya

[Ashvazdanghe]

Addendum

Why was a Quranic verse sent down giving the Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) permission not to respect his wives' turns?

Quote

Hence it became permissible for him not to respect turns due to governmental problems, if he wanted. In addition, his wives also consented to this divine command. Despite that, the Holy Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) took turns amongst his wives' even when he was extremely sick. And when he intended to go on a journey, he used to draw lots among his wives and would take with him the one on whom the lot fell. He would not take the one whom he was more inclined to. This shows that the Holy Prophet of Islam ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) treated his wives with justice and if some of his wives were disgruntled, it was not because the Prophet did not respect turns, rather it was because of their own moral problem. That was why, they hatched a conspiracy against the Prophet and they regretted when their conspiracy did not work. 

https://www.islamquest.net/en/archive/question/fa5778

 

 

Edited October 31 by Ashvazdanghe

[Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi]

I think there's a difference of opinion regarding this matter.

People relying on hadiths consider it 6 or 9, historians consider it to be 16+
Soo far i've just seen one shia hadith, that too wasn't narrated from any imams (عليه السلام) rather Ismail bin Jafer and hadith doesn't make sense either

Aside from this, we've plenty of hadiths suggesting minimum age for girl's marriage at that time was 9 or 10 (refer to wasail us shia). it's mutawatir i:e there are just too many traditions to deny this

in my opinion there's no wrong or right here, right age for marriage for both men and women has changed with respect to the time and society they live in
recently world has shifted to more of knowledge and skilled based jobs that are high paying instead of labour and it takes time to go through education institutes to finally be at a stage where you can start earning so early marriage doesn't seem like a good idea at all and hadiths also suggest fasting for those who can't afford to marry or maintain their own families. besides these kinds of jobs are also better for women as intense labour etc isn't really something they could've done back then hence we see women studying, working etc thus not marrying early on.

[mahmood8726]

29 minutes ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

I think there's a difference of opinion regarding this matter.

People relying on hadiths consider it 6 or 9, historians consider it to be 16+
Soo far i've just seen one shia hadith, that too wasn't narrated from any imams (عليه السلام) rather Ismail bin Jafer and hadith doesn't make sense either

Aside from this, we've plenty of hadiths suggesting minimum age for girl's marriage at that time was 9 or 10 (refer to wasail us shia). it's mutawatir i:e there are just too many traditions to deny this

in my opinion there's no wrong or right here, right age for marriage for both men and women has changed with respect to the time and society they live in
recently world has shifted to more of knowledge and skilled based jobs that are high paying instead of labour and it takes time to go through education institutes to finally be at a stage where you can start earning so early marriage doesn't seem like a good idea at all and hadiths also suggest fasting for those who can't afford to marry or maintain their own families. besides these kinds of jobs are also better for women as intense labour etc isn't really something they could've done back then hence we see women studying, working etc thus not marrying early on.

People often ignore that back in the day people went from children to adult in 1 day, they didn't have this concept of teenage years. You can still see this with tribes today, where when they put a glove full of bullet ants, they turn from boys to men in 1 second. 

In islam it's when you "titkhalaf", for boys usually at 13 and girls usually at 9. This wasn't exclusive to islam too, so many religions beleived this, even the Greeks 2000 years ago. When they saw hair grow on boys body, they sent them to the army to fight and die in some battle and the girls they went on to do house chores. That's how it was back then, this has 0 to do with pedophilia and it's only ignorant fools who say it is. Back then the world was far harsher.

[StrangerInThisWorld]

20 hours ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

Aside from this, we've plenty of hadiths suggesting minimum age for girl's marriage at that time was 9 or 10 (refer to wasail us shia). it's mutawatir i:e there are just too many traditions to deny this

There is nothing mutawatir about this at all.

There is literally just one claim by Hisham bin 'Urwa that 'Aisha married at that young age and then we find a number of narrations all either going back to Hisham himself or relying on those, who got the information from him. And whoever from the Fuqaha claimed this as minimum age did this due to the claim of Hisham becoming famous. 

Now there are several issues with the claim of Hisham:

1) He did not narrate it except in old age when in Iraq, where it's mentioned that he was already senile. 

2) He was inclined towards the oppressive 'Abbasi ruler Abu Ja'far al-Mansur. And his father 'Urwa bin Zubayr was inclined towards the oppressive Bani Umayya.

Allah ta'ala tells us in His Book NOT to be inclined towards those who do wrong, lest one be touched by the fire. 

3) In Usul al-Fiqh, there is a principle, which is based upon the Prophetic words (peace and blessings be upon him)  "لَا ضَرَرَ وَلَا ضِرَارَ", which basically means that there should be neither harming nor reciprocating harm. 

Marrying at this young age can cause serious health and mental problems. 

4) All narrations that do not rely on Hisham indicate an older age. An example would be that 'Aisha was present at the Battle of Badr carrrying water skins alongside Umm Sulaym, which makes her way older than Hisham's claim. 

5) The most likely reason behind this claim - alongside claims regarding dreams and so on - was to present 'Aisha as more special and innocent than other Ummahat al-Muminin.

But the reality was that she committed a big mistake when she went to Jamal against Imam 'Ali (peace be upon him). There are indications that she repented (like her criticizing Mu'awiya later on), but this still means that there were better Ummahat al-Muminin.

Edited November 1 by StrangerInThisWorld

[celestica]

40 minutes ago, StrangerInThisWorld said:

Marrying at this young age can cause serious health and mental problems. 

I feel like this is a sweeping generalization.

Like Mahmood mentioned, marriage at a young age was a custom ingrained across many societies historically. I don’t understand what is harmful about an Islamic marriage at a young age, given that everything about it is designed to protect the individuals involved. The requirement of a wali’s consent and mahr, mutual rights and responsibilities, the rights to divorce, and so on. All of this, and the fact that you cannot marry someone without their consent.

There isn’t a set in stone, preferred age to get married. There isn’t anything that clearly states “a woman can only marry after she gets her period” or “a man can only marry if he has at least 3 hairs on each armpit.” 

There are only two conditions (bulugh and rushd) which are entirely subjective and will vary depending on the situation. It’s not just the signs of puberty, or some random number, it’s the ability to discern right from wrong (understand what sin is) and uphold your responsibilities (not sinning). You *need* to be able to do these things before you marry. The reason puberty is associated with the minimum age of marriage is that no matter what age a child reaches it, it marks the beginning of significant cognitive development. I just don’t think it’s an accurate statement to say a young person will face such issues because of their age if they are mature enough to not sin and fulfill the responsibilities of a marriage 
 

2 hours ago, StrangerInThisWorld said:

There is literally just one claim by Hisham bin 'Urwa that 'Aisha married at that young age and then we find a number of narrations all either going back to Hisham himself or relying on those, who got the information from him. And whoever from the Fuqaha claimed this as minimum age did this due to the claim of Hisham becoming famous. 

I understand the importance of countering falsehood but why dedicate so much time to debunking Aisha’s age? Even if she was not 9 years old, people have theorized that she was 18, 16, 14, 12… It just feels like an attempt to settle on an ‘acceptable’ age for her based on standards that are constantly shifting, and may continue to shift indefinitely since the age of consent is not based on anything concrete

[Abu_Zahra]

On 11/1/2024 at 9:16 AM, StrangerInThisWorld said:

There is nothing mutawatir about this at all.

The claim is not that the tawatur is on the age of A'isha at the time of marriage, rather on the general permissibility of marrying at 9 or 10

[StrangerInThisWorld]

On 11/1/2024 at 11:53 AM, celestica said:

I feel like this is a sweeping generalization.

Like Mahmood mentioned, marriage at a young age was a custom ingrained across many societies historically. I don’t understand what is harmful about an Islamic marriage at a young age, given that everything about it is designed to protect the individuals involved. The requirement of a wali’s consent and mahr, mutual rights and responsibilities, the rights to divorce, and so on. All of this, and the fact that you cannot marry someone without their consent.

There isn’t a set in stone, preferred age to get married. There isn’t anything that clearly states “a woman can only marry after she gets her period” or “a man can only marry if he has at least 3 hairs on each armpit.” 

There are only two conditions (bulugh and rushd) which are entirely subjective and will vary depending on the situation. It’s not just the signs of puberty, or some random number, it’s the ability to discern right from wrong (understand what sin is) and uphold your responsibilities (not sinning). You *need* to be able to do these things before you marry. The reason puberty is associated with the minimum age of marriage is that no matter what age a child reaches it, it marks the beginning of significant cognitive development. I just don’t think it’s an accurate statement to say a young person will face such issues because of their age if they are mature enough to not sin and fulfill the responsibilities of a marriage 
 

I understand the importance of countering falsehood but why dedicate so much time to debunking Aisha’s age? Even if she was not 9 years old, people have theorized that she was 18, 16, 14, 12… It just feels like an attempt to settle on an ‘acceptable’ age for her based on standards that are constantly shifting, and may continue to shift indefinitely since the age of consent is not based on anything concrete

 

The problem is not marrying young, but rather marrying this young. 

Most people are nowhere ready for marriage - be it physically or mentally - at the age of 9 or even 10. This is not just true for our age, but also for the past. 

It also defeats the aim of a healthy marriage. A marriage protects both sides from sin and is the foundation for building a new family. How is this possible with a 9 year old? 

 

2 hours ago, Abu_Zahra said:

The claim is not that the tawatur is on the age of A'isha at the time of marriage, rather on the general permissibility of marrying at 9 or 10

The problem is that there is no foundation for such a permissibility, because it leads to harm, which is disallowed. Most people have not even reached puberty at this age. 

The permissibility is connected to physical and mental maturity that makes it possible to bear the responsibility of marriage. 

[Abu_Zahra]

On 11/2/2024 at 2:47 PM, StrangerInThisWorld said:

The problem is that there is no foundation for such a permissibility

The foundation are the multiple narrations the brother referred to

On 11/2/2024 at 2:47 PM, StrangerInThisWorld said:

because it leads to harm, which is disallowed

Whether it leads to harm depends on many factors. It isn't a universal rule that it will necessarily lead to harm.

[mahmood8726]

48 minutes ago, StrangerInThisWorld said:

 

The problem is not marrying young, but rather marrying this young. 

Most people are nowhere ready for marriage - be it physically or mentally - at the age of 9 or even 10. This is not just true for our age, but also for the past. 

A lot of people that are well versed in history would disagree with you. In the past they didn't have 16 years of mandatory high school, they didn't have barely any wars, they didn't have the lack of excessive manual labour to do even the most basic of things, etc.... this is just an emotional statement. 

Today people play video games at the age of 30 and run away from responsibility.

48 minutes ago, StrangerInThisWorld said:

It also defeats the aim of a healthy marriage. A marriage protects both sides from sin and is the foundation for building a new family. How is this possible with a 9 year old? 

Again you're superimposing your own modern experience on people who lived in medieval climates full of the black plague, tuberculosis, poop on the streets, urine on the streets, constant warfare, public hangings/beheadings on a regular in town square, extreemly common crime outside of cities by bandits/theives, etc... 

 

If what you said were true, people would have caught on long ago, but the reality is back then it was harsh, to the point where in places like brittan, a 7 year old boy could be hanged for stealing a horse. There is a reason why practically every civilisation on earth saw 0 issues with marriage at such a young age up until the mid 1900s.

48 minutes ago, StrangerInThisWorld said:

The problem is that there is no foundation for such a permissibility, because it leads to harm, which is disallowed.

There are many hadiths from both the shias and sunnis who confirm this.

48 minutes ago, StrangerInThisWorld said:

Most people have not even reached puberty at this age. 

In islam you have to base it on when you "btitkhalaf"/puberty, throught history this was usually at 9, but islamically from what I am aware you have to wait for the signs to show, not base it of the age of 9. Someone could correct me here.

48 minutes ago, StrangerInThisWorld said:

The permissibility is connected to physical and mental maturity that makes it possible to bear the responsibility of marriage. 

Guess what? 1000 years ago, you started responsibilities at a very young age and you mentally matured faster. Physically is what is mentionned above.

Edited November 2 by mahmood8726

[StrangerInThisWorld]

37 minutes ago, Abu_Zahra said:

The foundation are the multiple narrations the brother referred to

 

 

Whether it leads to harm depends on many factors. It isn't a universal rule that it will necessarily lead to harm.

 

 

I haven't seen the narrations, but if any narration is in conflict with the aim for a prescribed action in the Quran or with any other principle that follows from the Quran, then one should obviously give precedence to what follows from the Quran. 

We know that majority of people - even in the past - have and had not reached puberty at the age of 9 and also have and had not the mental capacity to bear the responsibility of marriage. Some exceptions don't change the general rule. 

Let me get a little bit more specific. If someone gets intimate with a prepubescent girl, there will be a significant risk on her physical and mental health. 

From a physical side it could lead to something serious like the formation of a fistula. From a mental side it can lead to serious trauma, because the person has not yet even reached the point where they could reject or accept a marriage proposal, let alone what is beyond that. 

So the girl is not yet ready to be intimate. So why get her into such a situation? Is this for her benefit? Surely not. 

Edited November 2 by StrangerInThisWorld

[StrangerInThisWorld]

34 minutes ago, mahmood8726 said:

A lot of people that are well versed in history would disagree with you. In the past they didn't have 16 years of mandatory high school, they didn't have barely any wars, they didn't have the lack of excessive manual labour to do even the most basic of things, etc.... this is just an emotional statement. 

Today people play video games at the age of 30 and run away from responsibility.

Again you're superimposing your own modern experience on people who lived in medieval climates full of the black plague, tuberculosis, poop on the streets, urine on the streets, constant warfare, public hangings/beheadings on a regular in town square, extreemly common crime outside of cities by bandits/theives, etc... 

 

If what you said were true, people would have caught on long ago, but the reality is back then it was harsh, to the point where in places like brittan, a 7 year old boy could be hanged for stealing a horse. There is a reason why practically every civilisation on earth saw 0 issues with marriage at such a young age up until the mid 1900s.

There are many hadiths from both the shias and sunnis who confirm this.

In islam you have to base it on when you "btitkhalaf"/puberty, throught history this was usually at 9, but islamically from what I am aware you have to wait for the signs to show, not base it of the age of 9. Someone could correct me here.

Guess what? 1000 years ago, you started responsibilities at a very young age and you mentally matured faster. Physically is what is mentionned above.

Again brother: I have no problem whatsoever with marriage at a young age, but NOT at an age where one side is still a child. There is a big difference between these two situations. 

Most girls were prepubescent at the age of 9. It's true that in the past people would reach the mental capacity for marriage earlier, because the living conditions were quite different, but even then this mental capacity was not at 9.

I don't like to get into more details, but some of the Fuqaha - both from the Sunni and the Shi'a side - had some quite disturbing rulings concerning this issue (and they knew that a girl at 9 usually lacked the mental capacity as is evident from some of their points!), which only shows that they were children of their age and their society and that one should use the intellect given by Allah ta'ala in order not to fall into injustice. 

If one really wants a marriage that fulfills the aims mentioned or indicated towards in the Quran, then a certain level of physical and mental maturity is a must. 

In the past this was usually after a girl started menstruating or she had reached an age (usually 15) where she was supposed to be already menstruating, but had not menstruated yet due to some condition. 

 

[mahmood8726]

17 minutes ago, StrangerInThisWorld said:

Again brother: I have no problem whatsoever with marriage at a young age, but NOT at an age where one side is still a child. There is a big difference between these two situations. 

Most girls were prepubescent at the age of 9. It's true that in the past people would reach the mental capacity for marriage earlier, because the living conditions were quite different, but even then this mental capacity was not at 9.

Again you're repeating yourself here. I just addressed all of this, most girls being prepubescent at 9 especially in the past where conditions were harsh isn't even true. Today it might be, puberty age today is 8 to 11-13, the average today seems to be 10.

 

Mental capacity was defenetly matured by then, you're Again basing your arguments from emotions rather than facts. It's because in our modern world this is inconceivable, so you assume that's how it's always been. 

 

You also missed the point where I specifically mentionned it's when signs of puberty are shown that Islamic responsibility applies to you, not at some abstract age of 9, 9 just seemed to be the average back then.  I might be wrong so someone can correct me here.

17 minutes ago, StrangerInThisWorld said:

I don't like to get into more details, but some of the Fuqaha - both from the Sunni and the Shi'a side - had some quite disturbing rulings concerning this issue (and they knew that a girl at 9 usually lacked the mental capacity as is evident from some of their points!), which only shows that they were children of their age and their society and that one should use the intellect given by Allah ta'ala in order not to fall into injustice. 

As far as I am aware most of the fuqaha didn't share that opinion.

17 minutes ago, StrangerInThisWorld said:

If one really wants a marriage that fulfills the aims mentioned or indicated towards in the Quran, then a certain level of physical and mental maturity is a must. 

 

17 minutes ago, StrangerInThisWorld said:

In the past this was usually after a girl started menstruating

That's when a girl becomes accountable for her actions in islam usually, which usually was 9 back then. I can be corrected if I am wrong here.

Edited November 2 by mahmood8726

[mahmood8726]

1 hour ago, StrangerInThisWorld said:

From a physical side it could lead to something serious like the formation of a fistula. From a mental side it can lead to serious trauma, because the person has not yet even reached the point where they could reject or accept a marriage proposal, let alone what is beyond that. 

I know this will sound horrible, but in islam, there is many things that are allowed that can lead to trauma both mental and physical. I don't think Islam is a utilitarian religion, it certainly tries to limit harm sometimes, but not necessarily always the case, just because it's allowed, doesn't mean it's a good idea.  In Islam for instance, horse poop is Tahir(not ritually impure).

Is it a good idea to wash your hands after having it on? Yes.

Is it allowed to not wash your hands after having some drop there? Yes.

Is it a bad idea? Yes.

What if you didn't wash your hands and maybe picked your nose? You'll get a disease that might kill you.

Edited November 2 by mahmood8726

[StrangerInThisWorld]

6 minutes ago, mahmood8726 said:

Again you're repeating yourself here. I just addressed all of this, most girls being prepubescent at 9 especially in the past where conditions were harsh isn't even true. Today it might be, puberty age today is 8 to 11-13, the average today seems to be 10.

 

Mental capacity was defenetly matured by then, you're Again basing your arguments from emotions rather than facts. It's because in our modern world this is inconceivable, so you assume that's how it's always been. 

 

You also missed the point where I specifically mentionned it's when signs of puberty are shown that Islamic responsibility applies to you, not at some abstract age of 9, 9 just seemed to be the average back then.  I might be wrong so someone can correct me here.

As far as I am aware most of the fuqaha didn't share that opinion.

 

That's when a girl becomes accountable for her actions in islam usually, which usually was 9 back then. I can be corrected if I am wrong here.

Scientifically speaking: Most girls were prepubescent at 9 years in the past. Especially considering the harsher conditions and dietary deficiency being much more common, which usually leads to delayed menstruation and not the other way around. 

[mahmood8726]

23 minutes ago, StrangerInThisWorld said:

Scientifically speaking: Most girls were prepubescent at 9 years in the past.

Scientifically most studies are not conclusive. Many studies even show the age of puberty not changing at all. 

Again, why do you keep focusing on this abstract age of 9? I keep telling you 2 times now it's based on signs of puberty showing, islamically. Why do you keep ignoring that comment? 

23 minutes ago, StrangerInThisWorld said:

Especially considering the harsher conditions and dietary deficiency being much more common, which usually leads to delayed menstruation and not the other way around. 

Luckily people didn't have famines 24/7 back then, generally speaking most peasants starving is a huge misconception, most of them were actually decently fed, just not as great as today and instead of having meat/cheese every day like us or some tribes, they had bread, eggs, veggies and from time to time cheese/meat.

 

If you're decently fed and your conditions were harsher, you had it earlier as far as I am aware.

Edited November 2 by mahmood8726

[StrangerInThisWorld]

21 minutes ago, mahmood8726 said:

Scientifically most studies are not conclusive. Many studies even show the age of puberty not changing at all. 

Again, why do you keep focusing on this abstract age of 9? I keep telling you 2 times now it's based on signs of puberty showing, islamically. Why do you keep ignoring that comment? 

Luckily people didn't have famines 24/7 back then, generally speaking most peasants starving is a huge misconception, most of them were actually decently fed, just not as great as today and instead of having meat/cheese every day like us or some tribes, they had bread, eggs, veggies and from time to time cheese/meat.

 

If you're decently fed and your conditions were harsher, you had it earlier as far as I am aware.

I keep mentioning the number 9 for several reasons:

The first one is that a number of people claim that our Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa alihi wa sallam) consummated the marriage with 'Aisha at this age, despite this claim only having its origin in the narration of Hisham bin 'Urwa, while everything else indicates otherwise. 

The second is that this age was mentioned by a number of Fuqaha - also most likely due to this narration becoming famous - and they mentioned some really weird rulings, which basically lead to injustice. 

 

As for you telling me several times that it's based upon signs of puberty showing and me not responding: I'm a Muslim, so why are you even telling me something, which we both accept?! 

I have no problem, if a person marries after puberty and after their opinion on the marriage is sought. 

What is problematic is when a prepubescent person is married off - obviously without asking because they're not able to reject or accept - because marriage is not meant for children.

If a person is not Baligh and not even responsible for her actions, how can this person get married with all responsibilities of marriage?! It should be quite obvious that there is something wrong here. 

Edited November 2 by StrangerInThisWorld

[mahmood8726]

3 minutes ago, StrangerInThisWorld said:

I keep mentioning the number 9, for several reasons:

The first one is that a number of people claim that our Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa alihi wa sallam) consummated the marriage with 'Aisha at this age, despite this claim only having its origin in the narration of Hisham bin 'Urwa, while everything else indicates otherwise. 

Ok? Aisha most probably had mental and physical maturity at that age. I'm pretty sure it's not just one narration mentioning this, I used to have your opinion, that it was just one narration and that person who transmitted it had memory problems, etc... but it seems the more I looked into it, the more there was proof that it's not just one narration and multiple claiming this. You even have fatimah(عليه السلام) that you can't also dismiss.

 

The prophet(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) married her at 9 and then consumated the marriage at 10.

3 minutes ago, StrangerInThisWorld said:

The second is that this age was mentioned by a number of Fuqaha - also most likely due to this narration becoming famous - and they mentioned some really weird rulings, which basically lead to injustice. 

Did you read everything they mentionned? Was it also mentionned if that 9 year old had reached puberty? Did they mention when you could consumate the marriage? Etc... these are all details you're leaving out. 

3 minutes ago, StrangerInThisWorld said:

As for you telling me several times that it's based upon signs of puberty showing and me not responding: I'm a Muslim, so why are you even telling me something, which we both accept?! 

Because you kept making it out as if it was this 9 year old thing that islam mentionned.

When from what I understand it is the signs of puberty showing that either make you eligible for marriage or consumation of marriage. I'm not sure here.

This is a big correction I have to make here. It's probably with consumation of marriage(intercourse), that is of importance here. Sorry for the confusion. I'm a layman so ask more knowledgeable people here.

As for if marrying early causes harm(injustice as you refer to it), I explained here my perspective:

55 minutes ago, mahmood8726 said:

I know this will sound horrible, but in islam, there is many things that are allowed that can lead to trauma both mental and physical. I don't think Islam is a utilitarian religion, it certainly tries to limit harm sometimes, but not necessarily always the case, just because it's allowed, doesn't mean it's a good idea.  In Islam for instance, horse poop is Tahir(not ritually impure).

Is it a good idea to wash your hands after having it on? Yes.

Is it allowed to not wash your hands after having some drop there? Yes.

Is it a bad idea? Yes.

What if you didn't wash your hands and maybe picked your nose? You'll get a disease that might kill you.

 

[mahmood8726]

I'll probably get back at this discussion tomorow if any knowledgeable person can tell me if I am wrong with the puberty thing, it would be appreciated.

[StrangerInThisWorld]

7 hours ago, mahmood8726 said:

Ok? Aisha most probably had mental and physical maturity at that age. I'm pretty sure it's not just one narration mentioning this, I used to have your opinion, that it was just one narration and that person who transmitted it had memory problems, etc... but it seems the more I looked into it, the more there was proof that it's not just one narration and multiple claiming this. You even have fatimah(عليه السلام) that you can't also dismiss.

 

The prophet(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) married her at 9 and then consumated the marriage at 10.

Did you read everything they mentionned? Was it also mentionned if that 9 year old had reached puberty? Did they mention when you could consumate the marriage? Etc... these are all details you're leaving out. 

Because you kept making it out as if it was this 9 year old thing that islam mentionned.

When from what I understand it is the signs of puberty showing that either make you eligible for marriage or consumation of marriage. I'm not sure here.

This is a big correction I have to make here. It's probably with consumation of marriage(intercourse), that is of importance here. Sorry for the confusion. I'm a layman so ask more knowledgeable people here.

As for if marrying early causes harm(injustice as you refer to it), I explained here my perspective:

 

What Islam teaches is one thing a what some Fuqaha taught was something else. Let's not mix up between the two. 

Islam doesn't set up a fixed age, but it's obvious that a certain physical / mental maturity is necessary. 

Allah ta'ala says:

4:6
وَٱبْتَلُوا۟ ٱلْيَتَـٰمَىٰ حَتَّىٰٓ إِذَا بَلَغُوا۟ ٱلنِّكَاحَ فَإِنْ ءَانَسْتُم مِّنْهُمْ رُشْدًۭا فَٱدْفَعُوٓا۟ إِلَيْهِمْ أَمْوَٰلَهُمْ ۖ ... ٦

And test the orphans [in their abilities] until they reach marriageable age. Then if you perceive in them sound judgement, release their property to them...

___

This means that reaching the [age for] Nikah, which is understood as reaching Bulugh, is around the age where one reaches the mental maturity to be able to transact with one's own property in a reasonable manner. 

 

Allah ta'ala also says:

30:21

وَمِنْ ءَايَـٰتِهِۦٓ أَنْ خَلَقَ لَكُم مِّنْ أَنفُسِكُمْ أَزْوَٰجًۭا لِّتَسْكُنُوٓا۟ إِلَيْهَا وَجَعَلَ بَيْنَكُم مَّوَدَّةًۭ وَرَحْمَةً ۚ إِنَّ فِى ذَٰلِكَ لَـَٔايَـٰتٍۢ لِّقَوْمٍۢ يَتَفَكَّرُونَ ٢١

And of His signs is that He created for you from yourselves mates that you may find tranquility in them; and He placed between you affection and mercy. Indeed in that are signs for a people who give thought.

___

The above can only apply, if both sides have reached a certain level of maturity. 

 

Likewise the statement of Allah ta'ala:

2:187
أُحِلَّ لَكُمْ لَيْلَةَ ٱلصِّيَامِ ٱلرَّفَثُ إِلَىٰ نِسَآئِكُمْ ۚ هُنَّ لِبَاسٌۭ لَّكُمْ وَأَنتُمْ لِبَاسٌۭ لَّهُنَّ ۗ ... ١٨٧

It has been made permissible for you the night preceding fasting to go to your wives [for sexual relations]. They are a clothing for you and you are a clothing for them...

___

There are situations, where a person may not have menstruated yet, but still has reached Bulugh, because of a condition that either delays the menstruation beyond 15 years of age or because of the complete lack of menstruation. Such a person obviously also can marry. 

We find the following Aya in the context of Talaq:

65:4
وَٱلَّـٰٓـِٔى يَئِسْنَ مِنَ ٱلْمَحِيضِ مِن نِّسَآئِكُمْ إِنِ ٱرْتَبْتُمْ فَعِدَّتُهُنَّ ثَلَـٰثَةُ أَشْهُرٍۢ وَٱلَّـٰٓـِٔى لَمْ يَحِضْنَ ۚ وَأُو۟لَـٰتُ ٱلْأَحْمَالِ أَجَلُهُنَّ أَن يَضَعْنَ حَمْلَهُنَّ ۚ وَمَن يَتَّقِ ٱللَّهَ يَجْعَل لَّهُۥ مِنْ أَمْرِهِۦ يُسْرًۭا ٤

And those who no longer expect menstruation among your women - if you doubt, then their period is three months, and [also for] those who have not menstruated. And for those who are pregnant, their term is until they give birth. And whoever fears Allāh - He will make for him of his matter ease.

___

 

 

[StrangerInThisWorld]

Coming back to your statement that there are more than one narration regarding the age of 'Aisha: Correct, but ALL of them either go back to Hisham bin 'Urwa or rely on those people, who got the information from him in the first place. That's why it's in reality one source only. 

Every other narration that does not go through him indicates an older age (but doesn't specify it). 

The thing with Hisham is that he basically presents 'Aisha as prepubescent and immature girl, who played with dolls and on swings and had no idea what marriage is. That's why I mentioned that he tried to present her as the most pure and innocent among the Umahat al-Muminin and that it doesn't represent the historical reality. 

 

As for what SOME Fuqaha mentioned, then yes they mentioned an age (the one in question) and included even prepubescent girls into that ruling and included consummation into it and that's simply wrong. Full stop. 

It also has an implication on people today. In a country like Iraq there is the attempt to justify marriage with girls of this age. 

As Muslims we should neither support the false ideas coming from the West, nor the false ideas that exist among ourselves, but rather adhere to divine guidance. 

Edited November 3 by StrangerInThisWorld

[mahmood8726]

3 hours ago, StrangerInThisWorld said:

Coming back to your statement that there are more than one narration regarding the age of 'Aisha: Correct, but ALL of them either go back to Hisham bin 'Urwa or rely on those people, who got the information from him in the first place. That's why it's in reality one source only. 

Every other narration that does not go through him indicates an older age (but doesn't specify it). 

I know that's what you're claiming, that's what we're disputing. I used to beleive this, but from what I saw it didn't seem to be the case here.

3 hours ago, StrangerInThisWorld said:

The thing with Hisham is that he basically presents 'Aisha as prepubescent and immature girl, who played with dolls and on swings and had no idea what marriage is. That's why I mentioned that he tried to present her as the most pure and innocent among the Umahat al-Muminin and that it doesn't represent the historical reality. 

This is another argument I see a lot of people making. You need to understand back then people also had some form of free time, playing =/= she was immature. Especially when you lived in the middle of the desert, you had boring house chores and this. I get where this argument comes from, but it's not this solid argument people think it is.

3 hours ago, StrangerInThisWorld said:

As for what SOME Fuqaha mentioned, then yes they mentioned an age (the one in question) and included even prepubescent girls into that ruling and included consummation into it and that's simply wrong. Full stop. 

That random fuqaha you mentionned said said both marriage and consumation at 9? I don't think that's what I've seen from many other fuqaha, I could be wrong. Would be appreciated if you name him.

3 hours ago, StrangerInThisWorld said:

It also has an implication on people today. In a country like Iraq there is the attempt to justify marriage with girls of this age. 

This is no diffirent than the argument made that islam encourages terrorism because some fool decided to misread the quran. If iraqis can't see that in their modern times they don't live in a medieval harsh climate, that's their fault. A 9 year old today is a child mentally and physically.

 

3 hours ago, StrangerInThisWorld said:

As Muslims we should neither support the false ideas coming from the West, nor the false ideas that exist among ourselves, but rather adhere to divine guidance. 

That's what I'm trying to figure out, is islam saying marriage allowed before takhaluf happens and consumation after? What did these fuqaha say exactly. What if islam says marriage before takhaluf and consummation after is allowed? Will you say islam is now false because it contradicts the harm principle? 

Or does islam say both after takhaluf? 

 

These are important things to determine, without allowing our biases to distort the truth, even if the truth is uncomfortable. 

This is why I didn't continue this convo, I was genuenly curious if I am wrong on this or not. I assume it is marriage allowed before takhaluf and consumation after, but I am not sure.

If islam says Aisha was 20, then cool, that's one less headache to deal with. Now there will be ahadiths saying the same exact thing about fatima(عليه السلام) marriage to Ali(عليه السلام), which you will also need to dismiss, if that one isn't true, then good, another less headache to deal with.

Edited November 3 by mahmood8726

[StrangerInThisWorld]

2 hours ago, mahmood8726 said:

I know that's what you're claiming, that's what we're disputing. I used to beleive this, but from what I saw it didn't seem to be the case here.

This is another argument I see a lot of people making. You need to understand back then people also had some form of free time, playing =/= she was immature. Especially when you lived in the middle of the desert, you had boring house chores and this. I get where this argument comes from, but it's not this solid argument people think it is.

That random fuqaha you mentionned said said both marriage and consumation at 9? I don't think that's what I've seen from many other fuqaha, I could be wrong. Would be appreciated if you name him.

This is no diffirent than the argument made that islam encourages terrorism because some fool decided to misread the quran. If iraqis can't see that in their modern times they don't live in a medieval harsh climate, that's their fault. A 9 year old today is a child mentally and physically.

 

That's what I'm trying to figure out, is islam saying marriage allowed before takhaluf happens and consumation after? What did these fuqaha say exactly. What if islam says marriage before takhaluf and consummation after is allowed? Will you say islam is now false because it contradicts the harm principle? 

Or does islam say both after takhaluf? 

 

These are important things to determine, without allowing our biases to distort the truth, even if the truth is uncomfortable. 

This is why I didn't continue this convo, I was genuenly curious if I am wrong on this or not. I assume it is marriage allowed before takhaluf and consumation after, but I am not sure.

If islam says Aisha was 20, then cool, that's one less headache to deal with. Now there will be ahadiths saying the same exact thing about fatima(عليه السلام) marriage to Ali(عليه السلام), which you will also need to dismiss, if that one isn't true, then good, another less headache to deal with.

 

Well, there is for example the narration that goes through al-Aswad bin Yazid. If you however see who narrated it, you will see the same Iraqi narrators that narrated it through Hisham. So there is really nothing independent here. Just the same old claim made famous and that's it. Don't be deceived just because you see another name. 

As for the narrations regarding playing with dolls and so on (again through Hisham, what a surprise!), then they do present her as immature. I would suggest to read the narrations. This is not even my own conclusion, but even the conclusion mentioned in Fath al-Bari (which is an explanation upon Sahih al-Bukhari). 

 

As for one of the Fuqaha, who held the opinion (this is at least what his followers ascribed to him) that consummation should be at 9, then it was Ahmad bin Hanbal. 

 

The next point was regarding the implications for today: In Iraq they are simply trying to implement the mistake of some Fuqaha of the past. This is obviously not what Islam says, but go and explain this to them. 

 

Regarding marriage and consummation and this being two different things: Classical scholars usually differentiated between the two. While the contract itself could be done at any time (if there was some good reason to do so), they usually would allow consummation only after maturity. 

 

As for Fatima (peace be upon her), then we find the Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa alihi wa sallam) rejecting people due to her small age. Anyways, one should really check narrations before jumping to conclusions. 

 

If the aims of marriage that follow from the Quran are taken into consideration, then no one will justify marriage to immature girls, because it would make many Ayat without any purpose.

[mahmood8726]

5 hours ago, StrangerInThisWorld said:

As for the narrations regarding playing with dolls and so on (again through Hisham, what a surprise!), then they do present her as immature. I would suggest to read the narrations. This is not even my own conclusion, but even the conclusion mentioned in Fath al-Bari (which is an explanation upon Sahih al-Bukhari). 

Ok that's new for me.

5 hours ago, StrangerInThisWorld said:

 

As for one of the Fuqaha, who held the opinion (this is at least what his followers ascribed to him) that consummation should be at 9, then it was Ahmad bin Hanbal. 

Ok thank you.

5 hours ago, StrangerInThisWorld said:

The next point was regarding the implications for today: In Iraq they are simply trying to implement the mistake of some Fuqaha of the past. This is obviously not what Islam says, but go and explain this to them. 

Well everyone today has the common sense to realise this, i have family that comes from rural southern lebanon where they love to be traditional and even they understand this. These lawmakers in Iraq are just fools who do this instead of implementing laws to fix their nation.

5 hours ago, StrangerInThisWorld said:

Regarding marriage and consummation and this being two different things: Classical scholars usually differentiated between the two. While the contract itself could be done at any time (if there was some good reason to do so), they usually would allow consummation only after maturity. 

Yes, i even remember in other religions like Christianity and maybe even Islam, marriages happened before the person was even born in some instances in royal weddings. Which is crazy, but it shows how back then they used to even marry before puberty happened but consumate when the first signs showed. This is what I'm aware is the beleif in islam.

5 hours ago, StrangerInThisWorld said:

As for Fatima (peace be upon her), then we find the Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa alihi wa sallam) rejecting people due to her small age. Anyways, one should really check narrations before jumping to conclusions. 

That's another headache to deal with. 

5 hours ago, StrangerInThisWorld said:

If the aims of marriage that follow from the Quran are taken into consideration, then no one will justify marriage to immature girls, because it would make many Ayat without any purpose.

That's a more intresting discussion, instead of saying marrying immature people goes against the harm principle, it would make more sense to see if it contradicts the teachings of quran instead. This might make for an intresting new forum in the future to discuss.