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In the Name of God بسم الله
.InshAllah.

Why homosexuality isn't great

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On 5/30/2018 at 8:04 PM, forte said:

Conversations about gays often includes overlapping talk of pedophilia.  Pedophilia is a psychiatric disorder where someone is exclusively attracted to children; the children are usually  defined as being under the age of 13.  There are gays who are pedophiles. However, the perpetrators of pedophilia are mainly male, and the targets of pedophiles are mainly female.  

Why is pedophilia a psychiatric disorder and not homosexuality?  Who defines what is and what isn't.  Fifty or less years later are they also going to normalize pedophilia?

The had (punishment) for these acts are severe because of the corruption and magnitude of damage it causes to society.

What you do in the privacy of your home is your business but once you promote, encourage, and demonstrate your sexuality outside you are effecting the society and bringing corruption, hence the severity of the had on homosexuality.

M3 Salamah, FE AMIN Allah 

 

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52 minutes ago, Laayla said:

Why is pedophilia a psychiatric disorder and not homosexuality?  Who defines what is and what isn't.  Fifty or less years later are they also going to normalize pedophilia?

The had (punishment) for these acts are severe because of the corruption and magnitude of damage it causes to society.

What you do in the privacy of your home is your business but once you promote, encourage, and demonstrate your sexuality outside you are effecting the society and bringing corruption, hence the severity of the had on homosexuality.

M3 Salamah, FE AMIN Allah 

 

What damage does it do to society? 

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4 minutes ago, Klanky said:

How is that "damage"? What harm comes of it? I really can't see it

self harm to the soul. one cant spiritually mature if he is falling into homosexuality..

many people these days arent even gay but do it to find an identitiy.. 

also, I challenge any gay person to convince me that there such a thing called love between two homosexuals... there isnt... there is pure lust plus "I tolerate you". that is because love is a blessing from God and God doesnt bless homosexuality. 

 

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15 minutes ago, abuhaydar said:

self harm to the soul. one cant spiritually mature if he is falling into homosexuality..

many people these days arent even gay but do it to find an identitiy.. 

also, I challenge any gay person to convince me that there such a thing called love between two homosexuals... there isnt... there is pure lust plus "I tolerate you". that is because love is a blessing from God and God doesnt bless homosexuality. 

 

Well, I know myself that it exists. What would it take to convince you?! From your post it seems that you have settled on your own definition of love. It is an impossible thing to prove anyway so your challenge is nonsense

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1 hour ago, Klanky said:

 

What damage does it do to society? 

597f64931a00008381dc150c.jpeg?cache=qxdd

You want me to give you reasons, you can reread this thread or the scores of other threads on the topic.  For me it is enough that God wants me to stay away from this grave sin.  What my Creator wants me to avoid and not practice is enough.  

Islam emphaizes on the institution of marriage between a man and a women.  Not fornication,  adultery,  homosexuality, incest, ..... etc...

We have things that are forbidden in Islam.  Alcohol, pork, gambling, drugs, homosexuality.

Despair is also a grave sin, along with shirk, and disobedience to parents.  There are many others.

Here is one example of the mercy of Allah and his leaders.

 

Fire Did Not Burn the Repentant!

There is a tradition from Imam Ja’far as-Sadiq (a.s.) in the book al-Kāfi (Section on Penal Code), that:

One day ‘Ali (a.s.) was sitting with his companions when a man approached and said “O Chief of the Believers, I have committed sodomy with a boy, please purify me (impose legal penalty upon me) ‘Ali (a.s.) told him, “Go home, you may have had some misunderstanding.”

The next day the man returned and repeated his confession and requested for penalty. ‘Ali (a.s.) said,

“Go home, you may not be in your sense right now.”

He went away only to return the third time and repeat his confession and again asked for punishment.

At last when he came for the fourth time, ‘Ali (a.s.) said,

“The Holy Prophet (S) has prescribed Three methods of dealing with the situation, you may choose any one of the three deaths - by having the arms and feet tied and thrown from the cliff, being beheaded or being burnt alive.”

He said, “O, ‘Ali (a.s.) which is the worst of these methods?” Imam replied, “Burning alive.” “Then I choose this death.” said the man. By permission of ‘Ali (a.s.), he stood and prayed two rakāt prayer and then said, “O Allah ! A sin was committed by me of which You are well aware. Then I had the fear of this sin, I came to the Successor of your Prophet and requested him to purify me. He gave me a choice of three deaths. I chose the most dreadful death. I pray to you to consider this penalty as the expiation of my sin and do not burn me in the fire of Hell which is ignited by you.”

Then he got up weeping and jumped into the pit into which the fire had been lit. He sat in the fire and the fire engulfed him from all the sides. ‘Ali (a.s.) began to weep, upon seeing this condition and the other companions were also in tears.

‘Ali (a.s.) said, “Arise, the one who has caused the angels of the earth and the sky to weep. Allah has certainly accepted your repentance. Get up but never approach the sin that you have committed.”

It so happened that the man came out of the fire unscathed. The fire could not burn the one who repented.

 

If you want to know more information,

https://www.al-islam.org/greater-sins-volume-1-ayatullah-sayyid-abdul-husayn-dastghaib-shirazi/eleventh-greater-sin-sodomy

 

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2 hours ago, Klanky said:

Well, I know myself that it exists. What would it take to convince you?! From your post it seems that you have settled on your own definition of love. It is an impossible thing to prove anyway so your challenge is nonsense

I have my religion you have yours... but it seems you dont

Edited by abuhaydar

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59 minutes ago, Laayla said:

597f64931a00008381dc150c.jpeg?cache=qxdd

You want me to give you reasons, you can reread this thread or the scores of other threads on the topic.  For me it is enough that God wants me to stay away from this grave sin.  What my Creator wants me to avoid and not practice is enough.  

Islam emphaizes on the institution of marriage between a man and a women.  Not fornication,  adultery,  homosexuality, incest, ..... etc...

We have things that are forbidden in Islam.  Alcohol, pork, gambling, drugs, homosexuality.

Despair is also a grave sin, along with shirk, and disobedience to parents.  There are many others.

Here is one example of the mercy of Allah and his leaders.

 

Fire Did Not Burn the Repentant!

There is a tradition from Imam Ja’far as-Sadiq (a.s.) in the book al-Kāfi (Section on Penal Code), that:

One day ‘Ali (a.s.) was sitting with his companions when a man approached and said “O Chief of the Believers, I have committed sodomy with a boy, please purify me (impose legal penalty upon me) ‘Ali (a.s.) told him, “Go home, you may have had some misunderstanding.”

The next day the man returned and repeated his confession and requested for penalty. ‘Ali (a.s.) said,

“Go home, you may not be in your sense right now.”

He went away only to return the third time and repeat his confession and again asked for punishment.

At last when he came for the fourth time, ‘Ali (a.s.) said,

“The Holy Prophet (S) has prescribed Three methods of dealing with the situation, you may choose any one of the three deaths - by having the arms and feet tied and thrown from the cliff, being beheaded or being burnt alive.”

He said, “O, ‘Ali (a.s.) which is the worst of these methods?” Imam replied, “Burning alive.” “Then I choose this death.” said the man. By permission of ‘Ali (a.s.), he stood and prayed two rakāt prayer and then said, “O Allah ! A sin was committed by me of which You are well aware. Then I had the fear of this sin, I came to the Successor of your Prophet and requested him to purify me. He gave me a choice of three deaths. I chose the most dreadful death. I pray to you to consider this penalty as the expiation of my sin and do not burn me in the fire of Hell which is ignited by you.”

Then he got up weeping and jumped into the pit into which the fire had been lit. He sat in the fire and the fire engulfed him from all the sides. ‘Ali (a.s.) began to weep, upon seeing this condition and the other companions were also in tears.

‘Ali (a.s.) said, “Arise, the one who has caused the angels of the earth and the sky to weep. Allah has certainly accepted your repentance. Get up but never approach the sin that you have committed.”

It so happened that the man came out of the fire unscathed. The fire could not burn the one who repented.

 

If you want to know more information,

https://www.al-islam.org/greater-sins-volume-1-ayatullah-sayyid-abdul-husayn-dastghaib-shirazi/eleventh-greater-sin-sodomy

 

OK, but society is not religion. Sometimes I forget where I am posting! I thought the implication in some of these  comments was that homosexuality was bad in general and not just in terms of religion

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25 minutes ago, Laayla said:

Klan,

What are you trying to achieve here on SC?

 

Below is what I posted in the "Introduce yourself here" thread... 

I'm not really trying to achieve anything except better understanding

Quote

Hi.

 

I'm not a muslim, I am just curious about islam because of current world events and I thought I'd have a look and see what you are all talking about. I am learning persian and have a few Iranian penpals who are shia - this is why I signed up for this particular forum. I am quite ignorant about Islam and  I expect I will disagree with you about everything so I will probably just lurk in case I am mistaken for a troll! I hope this is ok 

:D

 

 

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40 minutes ago, alidu78 said:

Klanky do you consider incest wrong? 

Hi

I do if it involves children as my understanding is that they are vulnerable to genetic abnormalities. It does not seem fair to risk it. If there is no question of children then I'm less certain. It is highly unappealing to me personally but I'm not sure that that makes it 'wrong' as such. If two mature adults decide that's what they want then who am I to tell them it's wrong? 

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On 5/30/2018 at 4:36 PM, iCambrian said:

And people wonder why gays celebrate being openly gay...the common sense answer, is because they're free. And nobody is going to put them in jail for...say...kissing, someone they love in public. Straight people kiss in public, so can they. It's a sign of equality, which is something they may not have elsewhere

In an Islamic society kissing (obviously in a sensual way) in public is unacceptable, whether it's a gay couple or another couple. I don't see why your bringing the point of equality here.

If you're talking about athiests or the hypocrite liberals who hate gay people based on descrimination and pure hatred, then that's a complete different story. 

In Islam, gays are supposed to be respected and they should be given every right. However we do recognize that the act of homosexuality is completely unacceptable from a moral point of view. Morality is constant and doesn't change with time. 14 centuries years ago homosexuality was wrong, today it is wrong, and in the future it will still be wrong. Why should we feel the pressure to submit to the values of society which prefers animalistic desires over God's commands?

 

Edited by ali_fatheroforphans

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42 minutes ago, Klanky said:

Hi

I do if it involves children as my understanding is that they are vulnerable to genetic abnormalities. It does not seem fair to risk it. If there is no question of children then I'm less certain. It is highly unappealing to me personally but I'm not sure that that makes it 'wrong' as such. If two mature adults decide that's what they want then who am I to tell them it's wrong? 

So for you it is acceptable if a guy do sex with his mother if after all they are adults and consentants? 

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15 minutes ago, alidu78 said:

So for you it is acceptable if a guy do sex with his mother if after all they are adults and consentants? 

I'd rather they didn't but... it is their business. 

In your view is it acceptable to barge in and stop them?   

I don't know what the law says about it here

Edited by Klanky

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21 hours ago, Laayla said:

Why is pedophilia a psychiatric disorder and not homosexuality?  Who defines what is and what isn't.  Fifty or less years later are they also going to normalize pedophilia?

The had (punishment) for these acts are severe because of the corruption and magnitude of damage it causes to society.

What you do in the privacy of your home is your business but once you promote, encourage, and demonstrate your sexuality outside you are effecting the society and bringing corruption, hence the severity of the had on homosexuality.

M3 Salamah, FE AMIN Allah 

Pedophilia is a medical, mental health disorder that you can find listed in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Health Disorders, 5th edition (DSM 5).  It is clearly defined and delineated from similar manifestations of behaviour.  Here is more information:  http://jaapl.org/content/42/4/404   Hoards of medical professionals from around the globe, after YEARS of consultations and research and debate (the current edition of the DSM took over 15 years to develop) define what is a diagnosable disorder and what isn't.

Medical diagnoses are based on objective research methodology results that are to be as free of bias due to tradition or superstitious beliefs, as humanly possible. A medical diagnosis is based on concepts that reflect legitimate evidence-based contributions. 

A medical diagnosis is the first step in modern medical practice.  The purpose is to guide the management and treatment of the patient. In contrast to previous belief system approaches, where "disorders" were determined on culture or myth based systems, modern medical guidelines are based on examination of current evidence using modern diagnostic techniques and treatments that are to be free of bias, culture or myth.  Again, all humans have bias due to acculturation, but this is goal for which we continually strive. Consultations between medical professionals are common place to support the practice of objectivity.

There is a wealth of information as to why homosexuality is not included as a psychiatric disorder that has come from many years of examination from many different angles.  If you are interested in exploring this further, there is plenty of information at your google finger tips.

Society's excessive, extreme punitive approaches to homosexuals have probably caused more damage than homosexuals themselves.  There are some very famous examples of people who contributed greatly to society who were imprisoned, tortured and/or killed.  A modern example is Alan Turing.

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32 minutes ago, Klanky said:

I'd rather they didn't but... it is their business. 

In your view is it acceptable to barge in and stop them?   

I don't know what the law says about it here

It is indeed for me acceptable to arrest them exactly because this is simply immoral and not at all a good exemple for society. 

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3 minutes ago, alidu78 said:

It is indeed for me acceptable to arrest them exactly because this is simply immoral and not at all a good exemple for society. 

Why is it immoral, though? Because it is against your religion or is it immoral regardless of religion?

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10 hours ago, Klanky said:

Why is it immoral, though? Because it is against your religion or is it immoral regardless of religion?

It seems to be missing in most examples of nature. Inbreeding doesn't do the next generation any good either.

As a Christian it's part of the "Thou shalt not" list, and if there aren't enough examples of why people should stick to a morality, just wait a few years.

i for one was put in a situation where I had to accept a gay couple into the circle. I didn't ask, they didn't tell, and they didn't do anything in front of anybody, they were just two guys. 

As .InshAllah. put it, and most annoying is the celebration. More so, encouraging children to remain sexually confused until they decide what they want to be. 

L and G could be a thing, B = pervert. No boundries, will do anybody. His dog is afraid to be alone with him.  Now there's over a dozen letters in the acronym, and it's all about perversion. Just a matter of time before beasting hits the list.

It's not so much the stringency of morals caused by religion. There was a reason why immorality was tabooed.  We'll all see why over the next decade.

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3 hours ago, Son of Placid said:

His dog is afraid to be alone with him.

:hahaha:

3 hours ago, Son of Placid said:

and it's all about perversion. Just a matter of time before beasting hits the list.

These things have been Beasts long time ago.

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3 hours ago, Son of Placid said:

for one was put in a situation where I had to accept a gay couple into the circle. I didn't ask, they didn't tell, and they didn't do anything in front of anybody, they were just two guys. 

Their actions in public have punishment but in their private they are only responsible in front of God &themselves. 

It's a story of Imam Ali (as):when prophet (pbu)was alive people were praying behind prophet at mosque which a person came to mosque &said in a home at neighborhood of mosque a man & woman are doing adultry prophet ordered to Imam Ali (as) to go there & investigate there when Imam Ali (as) reached to house  he closed his eyes & entered to house &by hand touched the wall &searched house with closed eyes when he came out he said I didn't see their sin & Prophet (pbu) praised him for his action.

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18 hours ago, Klanky said:

thought the implication in some of these  comments was that homosexuality was bad in general and not just in terms of religion

If you treat religion as some personal thing, where it's purely about the relationship with your inner self, then you might not consider homosexuality as destructive. In Islam, we are suppose to train ourselves and progress spiritually, however it is also our duty to speak against sin and remove moral corruption from society. Islam is a religion which deals with every aspect of human life. If a society doesn't morally progress in the same direction, then that might even have a bearing on our own spirituality. The least we can do is speak against it.

Just look at the West, they never respected morality and the divine commands of God, so they are being faced with a society which considers sex as something "cheap". Women are treated as objects and have no dignity, value or personality. I don't wanna generalize, as not everyone is the same, but you do get my point. This is the result when you let 'everyone be'.

Edited by ali_fatheroforphans

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7 hours ago, alidu78 said:

Could I ask you if you find that not disgusting that parents have sex with their children (when they are matures)? 

Sure, but that doesn't in itself make it immoral. I also find it a bit gross for first cousins to do it but in some cultures (e.g. Iran) this is totally normal. Disgust is a personal thing

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6 hours ago, Son of Placid said:

It seems to be missing in most examples of nature. Inbreeding doesn't do the next generation any good either.

As a Christian it's part of the "Thou shalt not" list, and if there aren't enough examples of why people should stick to a morality, just wait a few years.

It's not one of the commandments, if that's what you are referring to. 

I was trying to get the point about why incest, specifically childless incest (either through age or diligent contraception etc), is immoral. While I am inclined to agree that there is something wrong with it when I think about it I can't actually come up with any reason why that is so. I don't think immorality applies to just anything I have a personal distaste for. 

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3 hours ago, ali_fatheroforphans said:

If you treat religion as some personal thing, where it's purely about the relationship with your inner self, then you might not consider homosexuality as destructive. In Islam, we are suppose to train ourselves and progress spiritually, however it is also our duty to speak against sin and remove moral corruption from society. Islam is a religion which deals with every aspect of human life. If a society doesn't morally progress in the same direction, then that might even have a bearing on our own spirituality. The least we can do is speak against it.

OK, I get that Islam is not cool with it. From an Islamic point of view is homosexuality corrupt  and destructive simply because God said not to do it and going against his will is corrupt and destructive? (excuse my non-expert language). 

3 hours ago, ali_fatheroforphans said:

Just look at the West, they never respected morality and the divine commands of God, so they are being faced with a society which considers sex as something "cheap". Women are treated as objects and have no dignity, value or personality. I don't wanna generalize, as not everyone is the same, but you do get my point. This is the result when you let 'everyone be'.

In my view most problems in the west are a result of unrestrained capitalism which has devalued pretty much everything, decayed social cohesion and generally created an environment for the spread of all kinds of social problems - largely resulting from wealth inequality and the removal of social protections for the less well off.  I guess things were always problems everywhere but they are getting chronic now. 

Edited by Klanky

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49 minutes ago, alidu78 said:

So when it is immoral for you? 

I'm not really sure because I don't know what makes it immoral and you don't seem to be able to tell me! Is revulsion all that is required to classify something immoral? Is a societal taboo against something enough? I used to find fish revolting but now I eat it all the time. 

Edited by Klanky

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21 hours ago, ali_fatheroforphans said:

In an Islamic society kissing (obviously in a sensual way) in public is unacceptable, whether it's a gay couple or another couple. I don't see why your bringing the point of equality here.

If you're talking about athiests or the hypocrite liberals who hate gay people based on descrimination and pure hatred, then that's a complete different story. 

In Islam, gays are supposed to be respected and they should be given every right. However we do recognize that the act of homosexuality is completely unacceptable from a moral point of view. Morality is constant and doesn't change with time. 14 centuries years ago homosexuality was wrong, today it is wrong, and in the future it will still be wrong. Why should we feel the pressure to submit to the values of society which prefers animalistic desires over God's commands?

 

In America, kissing in public, is not a crime. Nor should it be, in my opinion.

 

Shootings, murders, drugs...these things are crimes. But one person kissing another, this is just affection and a display of love.

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9 hours ago, Son of Placid said:

It seems to be missing in most examples of nature. Inbreeding doesn't do the next generation any good either.

As a Christian it's part of the "Thou shalt not" list, and if there aren't enough examples of why people should stick to a morality, just wait a few years.

i for one was put in a situation where I had to accept a gay couple into the circle. I didn't ask, they didn't tell, and they didn't do anything in front of anybody, they were just two guys. 

As .InshAllah. put it, and most annoying is the celebration. More so, encouraging children to remain sexually confused until they decide what they want to be. 

L and G could be a thing, B = pervert. No boundries, will do anybody. His dog is afraid to be alone with him.  Now there's over a dozen letters in the acronym, and it's all about perversion. Just a matter of time before beasting hits the list.

It's not so much the stringency of morals caused by religion. There was a reason why immorality was tabooed.  We'll all see why over the next decade.

You said that we would see why, over the next decade. But we have already been in this environment of gays existing in the public eye for a decade already.

What event do you think we should start the 10 year clock to doomsday at?

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21 minutes ago, Klanky said:

I'm not really sure because I don't know what makes it immoral and you don't seem to be able to tell me! Is revulsion all that is required to classify something immoral? Is a societal taboo against something enough? I used to find fish revolting but now I eat it all the time. 

what is immoral is subjective when it comes down to it.

that is the purpose of religion. religion is literally a guide to what is right and wrong as set by the creator. 

you dont have a religion so you see nothing wrong.

this means there is no justice... a man who raped people will have the same fate as a man who saved orphans... 

that is not the reality.. God is just and everyone will get what he deserved

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