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placid

THE HOLINESS OF GOD IS WITHOUT COMPROMISE

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Hi Kirtc,

I will answer your longer question later, but I want to give the last two posts on the subject, "The holiness of God."

17. If we have taken these steps that lead to righteousness: faith, hope, love, joy, and peace, to arrive at the entrance to ‘holiness,’ what is the next step? --- Paul said in 1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.” --- It seems then that we cannot obtain holiness while in our mortal body, but we ‘enter into holiness’ as we pass from death into eternal life. --- So, let’s face it. “We have to die to win.” --- We lay down our worn out body, and enter a new one.

 

18. This is my understanding of how we were brought into life, separated from God, and shut out from His Holiness. --- Then the way was made for mankind through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross for sin, to bring believers back to a right relationship with God. --- Through the resurrection, we have the promise of eternal life in God’s kingdom of holiness, --- the position that Adam and Eve lost. --- Is that not right? --- This doesn’t solve the problem of man’s inhumanity to man which is so prevalent in our world today, but as Christians, we are to Love God and love our neighbors as ourselves.  I believe that the Lord will intervene soon to declare His Sovereignty over all.

--- If there are points for discussion, I will answer any questions and comments. I enjoy interfaith dialogue as it keeps us learning.

Blessings.

 

 

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Hi Kirtc,

Quote: What do you think of the verses Surah al Nisa 156-176?
https://quran.com/4/156-166?translations=20

 

I checked the Pickthall translation and the Yusuf Ali, so I will start at verse 145 and 146, which shows the distinction between believers and unbelievers, and their reward or fate.

 

145. The Hypocrites will be in the lowest depths of the Fire: no helper wilt thou find for them;-

146. Except for those who repent, mend (their lives) hold fast to Allah, and purify their religion as in Allah.s sight: if so they will be (numbered) with the believers. And soon will Allah grant to the believers a reward of immense value.

147. What can Allah gain by your punishment, if ye are grateful and ye believe? Nay, it is Allah that recogniseth (all good), and knoweth all things.

--- God Knows all things and recognizes the good and rewards it in believers.

 

148. Allah loveth not that evil should be noised abroad in public speech, except where injustice hath been done; for Allah is He who heareth and knoweth all things.

149. Whether ye publish a good deed or conceal it or cover evil with pardon, verily Allah doth blot out (sins) and hath power (in the judgment of values).

150. Those who deny Allah and His apostles, and (those who) wish to separate Allah from His apostles, saying: "We believe in some but reject others": And (those who) wish to take a course midway,-

151. They are in truth (equally) unbelievers; and we have prepared for unbelievers a humiliating punishment.

--- It is quite plain that those who believe only part of the Scriptures, or part of the revelations, given to Muhammad in the Quran, are unbelievers.

 

  1. To those who believe in Allah and His apostles and make no distinction between any of the apostles, we shall soon give their (due) rewards: for Allah is Oft- forgiving, Most Merciful.

    --- This is a clear distinction, is it not? --- And here is another distinction. --- When it says, “The people of the Book,” many think it is referring to Jews and Christians. When you read the context it identifies quickly whether it means Jews or Christians. From here on it is speaking of the Jews and their rejection of God’s covenants.

     

    153. The people of the Book ask thee to cause a book to descend to them from heaven: Indeed they asked Moses for an even greater (miracle), for they said: "Show us Allah in public," but they were dazed for their presumption, with thunder and lightning. Yet they worshipped the calf even after clear signs had come to them; even so we forgave them; and gave Moses manifest proofs of authority.

    154. And for their covenant we raised over them (the towering height) of Mount (Sinai); and (on another occasion) we said: "Enter the gate with humility"; and (once again) we commanded them: "Transgress not in the matter of the sabbath." And we took from them a solemn covenant.

    155. (They have incurred divine displeasure): In that they broke their covenant; that they rejected the signs of Allah. that they slew the Messengers in defiance of right; that they said, "Our hearts are the wrappings (which preserve Allah.s Word; We need no more)";- Nay, Allah hath set the seal on their hearts for their blasphemy, and little is it they believe;-

    --- The Jews broke their covenant and had God’s messengers put to death, including Jesus. As the verse below says, ‘the Jews didn’t kill Jesus,’ but they brought about His death by the Roman government.

     

  1. That they rejected Faith; that they uttered against Mary a grave false charge;

    --- The Jews rejected the new covenant and the faith it commanded, and they no doubt tried to bring doubt on Mary, perhaps about the miraculous birth of Jesus, as is written in Luke 1, and in Surah 3 and Surah 19.

     

  2. That they (the Jews) said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah.;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:

    --- They were there at the crucifixion as it says in Luke 23:46 And when Jesus had cried out with a loud voice, He said, “Father, ‘into Your hands I commit My spirit.’  Having said this, He breathed His last.

    47 So when the centurion saw what had happened, he glorified God, saying, “Certainly this was a righteous Man!”

    48 And the whole crowd who came together to that sight, seeing what had been done, beat their breasts and returned.

  3.  

     

    --- The Jews representing the Pharisees remained until they saw that Jesus was finally dead on the cross, then they ‘beat their breasts’ perhaps in satisfaction, so they could boast and say, “We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the messenger of God.”

    --- There is nothing in the verse that says Jesus didn’t die, but there was speculation about how He died and who actually killed Him. --- It seems that Muslims want to buy into this to say that He was not crucified as the Scripture said.

    But if God and Muhammad confirm that the Scriptures are true, then the crucifixion and resurrection are true. --- Remember these verses,  

    150. Those who deny Allah and His apostles, and (those who) wish to separate Allah from His apostles, saying: "We believe in some but reject others": And (those who) wish to take a course midway,-

    151. They are in truth (equally) unbelievers; and we have prepared for unbelievers a humiliating punishment.

     

  4. Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise; 

    --- Since ‘flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God,’ Jesus had to die and His body be drained of blood  before ‘God took Him up.’

     

  5. And there is none of the People of the Book but must believe in him before his death; and on the Day of Judgment he will be a witness against them;-

    --- The Jews actually knew who Jesus was, as it says in John 3:2 where Nicodemus the Pharisee made this statement to Jesus, --- This man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.” 

    And in John 11, after Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead, “47 Then the chief priests and the Pharisees gathered a council and said, “What shall we do? For this Man works many signs. 48 If we let Him alone like this, everyone will believe in Him, and the Romans will come and take away both our place and nation.” 53 Then, from that day on, they plotted to put Him to death.

     

    160. For the iniquity of the Jews We made unlawful for them certain (foods) good and wholesome which had been lawful for them;- in that they hindered many from Allah.s Way;-

    161. That they took usury, though they were forbidden; and that they devoured men's substance wrongfully;- we have prepared for those among them who reject faith a grievous punishment.

    --- The rejecting Jews will suffer the grievous punishment.

     

  1. But those among them who are well-grounded in knowledge, and the believers, believe in what hath been revealed to thee and what was revealed before thee: And (especially) those who establish regular prayer and practise regular charity and believe in Allah and in the Last Day: To them shall We soon give a great reward.

    --- These are the true believers among Jews, Christians and Muslims. --- Notice again these words, --- who are knowledgeable, and who believe, --- who believe in what hath been revealed to thee and WHAT WAS REVEALED BEFORE THEE, --- those who practice regular prayer and charity, and believe in God, and the Last Day.

     

    163. We have sent thee inspiration, as We sent it to Noah and the Messengers after him: we sent inspiration to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob and the Tribes, to Jesus, Job, Jonah, Aaron, and solomon, and to David We gave the Psalms.

    164. Of some apostles We have already told thee the story; of others We have not;- and to Moses Allah spoke direct;-

    165. Messenger. who gave good news as well as warning, that mankind, after (the coming) of the apostles, should have no plea against Allah. For Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.

    166. But Allah beareth witness that what He hath sent unto thee He hath sent from His (own) knowledge, and the angels bear witness: But enough is Allah for a witness.

    --- God is a sufficient witness in Himself, but He has sent angels and messengers, and apostles to reveal God to us. --- Those who believe and Follow God will be rewarded. But those who don’t, or who are half-hearted, will be lost.

     

    Has this covered the part in these verses that you were asking about?  

     

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Hi Kirtc,

 

In turn, I would like to ask you what you think of these verses?

"Strongest among men in enmity to the believers wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans; and nearest among them in love to the believers wilt thou find those who say, "We are Christians": because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant. And when they listen to the revelation received by the Apostle (Muhammad), thou wilt see their eyes overflowing with tears, for they recognise the truth: they pray: "Our Lord! we believe; write us down among the witnesses. What cause can we have not to believe in God and the truth which has come to us, seeing that we long for our Lord to admit us to the company of the righteous?" And for this their prayer hath God rewarded them with gardens, with rivers flowing underneath,- their eternal home. Such is the recompense of those who do good. But those who reject Faith and believe not our Signs,- they shall be companions of Hell-fire." S. 5:82-86

 

Edited by placid

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3 hours ago, placid said:

Hi Kirtc,

 

In turn, I would like to ask you what you think of these verses?

"Strongest among men in enmity to the believers wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans; and nearest among them in love to the believers wilt thou find those who say, "We are Christians": because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant. And when they listen to the revelation received by the Apostle (Muhammad), thou wilt see their eyes overflowing with tears, for they recognise the truth: they pray: "Our Lord! we believe; write us down among the witnesses. What cause can we have not to believe in God and the truth which has come to us, seeing that we long for our Lord to admit us to the company of the righteous?" And for this their prayer hath God rewarded them with gardens, with rivers flowing underneath,- their eternal home. Such is the recompense of those who do good. But those who reject Faith and believe not our Signs,- they shall be companions of Hell-fire." S. 5:82-86

 

Salam,

Thanks for taking the time to answer..

On 5/24/2018 at 9:35 PM, placid said:

There is nothing in the verse that says Jesus didn’t die, but there was speculation about how He died and who actually killed Him. --- It seems that Muslims want to buy into this to say that He was not crucified as the Scripture said.


This may be true, I wonder if we have any hadiths regarding this issue

 

On 5/24/2018 at 9:35 PM, placid said:

--- Since ‘flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God,’ Jesus had to die and His body be drained of blood  before ‘God took Him up.’

where did you get this?

To answer your question above..

Jews chose to stay Jewish at the time of the birth of Jesus a.s to hold on to their power. Even though they prophesied his coming. Killing every new born baby proves that not only did they believe the prophecy, but how evil they were to actually kill newborns..  

In Islam God tell us that he sends prophets in times when the earth is filled with corruption and evil as a mercy to people and a guide. So Jesus came to to save those people. But just like moses a.s and even Mohammed saaw, after his death we believe people went astray. Actually, according to a scholar I watched recently. He says paul is to Jesus as abu bakr is to Mohammed, and Peter was the rightful heir so to speak. And Paul actually introduced the trinity to Christianity...

But I do believe Christians are closer to us than the Jews in faith... and I say that not only because of geopolitics but because I used to live in a very very Jewish neighborhood in the US. 
They are more prone to the worldly life than anyone else... 

 

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Hi Kirtc,

 

Quote:

窗体顶端

--- Since ‘flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God,’ Jesus had to die and His body be drained of blood  before ‘God took Him up.’ 

where did you get this?

 

This is a short question, but I will have to give you a longer answer.

I began post 1. by saying God is holy, therefore heaven is holy, and sin cannot remain there, so when sin entered through a cherubim angel in post 4. and 5. --- it had to be cast out. --- It says of this angel in Post 7. --- Ezekiel 28:15 “You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, till iniquity was found in you.” --- The evidence is that God did not create sin. But sin developed in a created being.

 

9. 'This rebellion caused temporary division and God had to cleanse heaven to keep it holy. He removed the ‘instigator of sin,’ and all his followers, to restore perfect Holiness in heaven.' --- Then we come to the perfect creation of Adam and Eve. In a body of flesh and bones, with the ‘life support system’ being the Holy Spirit of God, as it says in Genesis 2:7 “And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.--- The Cherubim angel was a spiritual being, and had to be barred from heaven, but he was able to tempt Adam and Eve to be disobedient to God to destroy their holiness, as he had destroyed his own.

 

The story of the fall from holiness is told in Genesis 3, in Surah 7:19-26, and other places in the Quran.--- Adam and Eve had a light weight flesh and bones body which would have lived forever, but as soon as sin came in, the Holy Spirit of God had to be withdrawn from their sinful bodies.

God gave them an alternativelife support system’like the animals had, with a circulating blood system. God made them human with a flesh,bones,and blood body, which we still have today. The flesh and blood body has a heavy water content,and since both blood and water are kept under pressure, God overlaid the new body with layers of skin.

 

In heaven Adam and Eve could have lived forever in holiness, living in the‘Holy Spirit,’but after their fall,they were placed on earth among the animals, and, as it says in Surah 7:25 God said,“There shall you live, and there shall you die,and thence shall you be brought forth.” 

--- So the earth is the training ground for humans to regain our status with God. --- Adam and Eve were disobedient to God and lost their eternal life with Him in His heaven. --- We have to be surrendered to God to find our way back to Him through faith and obedience.

 

This explains the blood body and the fact that there are no blood bodies in heaven, as it says, "Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God” 1 Corinthians 15:50. --- And another verse says “Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin.”Hebrews 9:22.

This is perhaps enough tto study for one day, but I will add more from both the Bible and the Quran later.

   

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Hi Kirtc

 

To continue:

 

I know I took quite a while to explain that the flesh and blood body is not acceptable to God.

 

You may not be too familiar with the Jewish sacrifices in the OT that Moses was instructed to give to the people. --- When a person came to sacifice to the Lord he would bring a clean animal to represent himself, and the animal would be killed and the blood drained out, then it was an acceptable sacrifice. --- It was as though God looked on the pure bloodless animal and accepted it on behalf of the person who offered it.

 

The dead animal was a substitute for the man that offered it. --- This was the practice by the priests every day to offer animal sacrifices for the sins of the people. You can read about the many sacrifices in the books of Deuteronomy and Numbers. --- Some were burnt offerings, but in most cases, after the sacrifice the meat of the animal was used for the priests and Levites, the servants of God, and if there was extra it was perhaps given to the poor. So the animals were to be pure, without blemish, and with the blood drained out, so that it was ‘Koshur.’

 

I guess you can understand from this that Jesus was the perfect sacrifice for sin, So in due time Jesus Christ, the righteous one, died as a substitute for sinful mankind.  --- However, each one has to believe in God and accept Jesus as their sacrifice, and follow God’s will for their lives.

 

I want to tell you about one particular sacrifice of the Jews, which was different but was a lasting sacrifice for sin. --- It is written in Numbers 19:1 Now the Lord spoke to Moses and Aaron, saying, “This is the ordinance of the law which the Lord has commanded, saying: ‘Speak to the children of Israel, that they bring you a red heifer without blemish, in which there is no defect and on which a yoke has never come. You shall give it to Eleazar the priest, that he may take it outside the camp, and it shall be slaughtered before him; Then the heifer shall be burned in his sight: its hide, its flesh, its blood, and its offal shall be burned. And the priest shall take cedar wood and hyssop and scarlet, and cast them into the midst of the fire burning the heifer. Then a man who is clean shall gather up the ashes of the heifer, and store them outside the camp in a clean place; and they shall be kept for the congregation of the children of Israel for the water of purification; it is for purifying from sin. 10 It shall be a statute forever to the children of Israel and to the stranger who dwells among them.

 

And to show how the ashes were used, --- 19:17‘And for an unclean person they shall take some of the ashes of the heifer burnt for purification from sin, and running water shall be put on them in a vessel. 18 A clean person shall take hyssop and dip it in the water, sprinkle it on the tent, on all the vessels, on the persons who were there, or on the one who touched a bone, the slain, the dead, or a grave (any unclean object).  

 

--- In this case the ashes would last for a time, but when they ran out, they would have to find another pure unblemished heifer to get more ashes.

It mentions this in Surah 2:67 And recall when Moses said to his people, “God commands you to sacrifice a heifer.” They said, “Do you make a mockery of us?” He said, “God forbid that I should be so ignorant.”

  1. They said, “Call upon your Lord to show us which one.” He said, “He says she is a heifer, neither too old, nor too young, but in between. So do what you are commanded.” --- (They continued to ask.)

  1. He said, “He (God) says she is a heifer, neither yoked to plow the earth, nor to irrigate the field; sound without blemish.” They said, “Now you have brought the truth.” So they slew her; though they almost did not.

    The next two verses 72 and 73 are written differently in different translations. and are often misunderstood. --- Starting with 72.

  2. And recall when you (Jews) killed a person, and disputed in the matter; but God was to expose what you were hiding. --- (This compares to surah 4:155 Then because of their (the Jews) breaking of their covenant, and their disbelieving in the revelations of Allah, and their slaying of the prophets wrongfully (including Jesus),

    156 And because of their disbelief and of their speaking against Mary a tremendous calumny;

    157 And because of their saying in boast: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger --- The Jews admitted bringing about the death of Jesus, though they didn’t have the authority to put anyone to death under the Roman Government, so it had to be a Roman crucifixion.

     

    2:72 And recall when you (Jews) killed a person, and disputed in the matter; but God was to expose what you were hiding. 

    73 We said, “Strike him with part of it.” Thus God brings the dead to life; and He shows you His signs, that you may understand.

    --- Because these verses follow the sacrifice of the heifer, it seems to say, ‘Strike the dead body’ with part of the ‘heifer.’

    This is impossible because the sacrificed heifer was from the time of Moses. --- But it has been translated that ‘strike’ can also mean ‘compare.’ --- It is like saying of the two sacrifices, the heifer and Jesus, “Lay them along side of one another and compare” --- and one is a striking image of the other.

     

    The pure unblemished heifer was sacrificed and turned to ashes to be sprinkled on the offenders, for the purification of sin, --- and the death of Jesus for the forgiveness of sin.

    --- The difference was that the heifer died, before turning its body and blood to ashes, and when those ashes ran out, they had to find another heifer and prepare the ashes the same way.

    Notice tha last part of verse 73, “Thus God brings the dead to life; and He shows you His signs, that you may understand.

     

    When Jesus died, His blood was shed, so He was offered as a pure unblemished sacrifice, like the heifer. --- But, as God promised, after three days He rose again, --- and ‘God caught him up unto Himself.’ --- (Surah 4:158)

     

    I know this might be all new to you, and you may not believe it, but I see the verification of the Bible in the Quran.

     

    One last passage from the Book of Hebrews, 9:13 For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies for the purifying of the flesh,

    14 how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

    --- The reference to the heifer is the same heifer in the time of Moses, as referred to in Surah 2 in the Quran.

     

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Hi Kirtc

  

 

 

 

 

 

Quote: 窗体顶端

Quote: In Islam God tell us that he sends prophets in times when the earth is filled with corruption and evil as a mercy to people and a guide.

--- Throughout history God has sent prophets and teachers to lead and guide the people, teaching morality and the path of righteousness.

 

Quote: So Jesus came to save those people. But just like moses a.s and even Mohammed saaw, after his death we believe people went astray.

--- Yes, it seems that between the time of prophets, people go astray, or the next generations don’t follow the faith of their fathers. --- So God calls new leaders. That is about the state of corruption that the world is in right now, so we can expect God to intervene again before long.

 

  Quote: Actually, according to a scholar I watched recently. He says paul is to Jesus as abu bakr is to Mohammed, and Peter was the rightful heir so to speak.

--- This is not a good understanding. There were 12 Apostles that followed Jesus and 11 of them were commissioned to “Go into all the world to preach the Gospel and make disciples.” --- They all went different directions from Jerusalem. Peter and John were the two that stayed in Jerusalem, and later Peter went to Rome in the late 50’s. --- John continued in Jerusalem till about 67, then moved in Ephesus. Later he was banished to the Island of Patmos during the reign of the Roman emperor Domition (81 - 96 AD). John wrote the last book, the Revelation on the Island of Patmos when he was perhaps 80-85 years old. --- Peter started out as the prominent Apostle in Jerusalem, but he was not above the rest of them.

Though Peter went to Rome, he was not the first Pope, as the Roman Catholic Church didn’t exist before 300 AD, so it was long after Peter died, before they appointed a pope.

Because Paul was a Jew he became an ‘outcast’ to the Jews as they wanted to kill him for becoming a Christian, so his ministry was to the Gentiles while Peter ministered more to the Jewish Christians.

 

--- His comment, ‘as Abu Bakr is to Muhammad’ is also questionable because Muhammad had appointed his son in law Ali as his successor, did he not? --- So Abu Bakr was either a hero or a villian, because a division started in rivalry over who would be Muhammad’s successor, did it not? --- And the division resulted in the Shias and Sunni’s, did it not? --- Or am I wrong about this?

 

Quote: --- And Paul actually introduced the trinity to Christianity… No, While the names Father, Son and Holy Spirit were used in the Gospels, they did not refer to a trinity as has been taught. --- The doctrine of trinity came out of the Roman Catholic Church at the time of the Emperor Constantine, and has been a misleading doctrine ever since. --- So I guess you will understand that I am not a trinitarian.

窗体底端

Thanks for your questions and comments.

 

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