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In the Name of God بسم الله
Enlightened Follower

Men in the West are becoming Feminized

Reza

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The focus of this topic is men becoming effeminate. This is not a discussion of feminism or women's rights, or even of women becoming masculine. Please stay on topic.

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Most Men in the West in the Millennial and Z generation have never even been in a relationship with a women, this likely explains the numbers of frustrated male youth in the West many male shooters had issues with their social lives and were sexually frustrated leading them to commit mass shootings(Elliot Rodger, Omar Mateen etc.)

Edited by Enlightened Follower

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Lots of more men are also getting Low levels of testosterone because of how much phytoestrogens that are in the diet. Which then is also leading to other problems. And also low levels of hormones that help men build more muscle, other than testosterone. 

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5 hours ago, Enlightened Follower said:

Women are becoming "independent" aka materialistic and well off and the lack of religiosity and piousness leads to this:

This is a vicious cycle leading to destruction of society and single mothers and children without fathers:

How has independence suddenly become materialistic? 

Relying on one's self makes you strong. Not materialistic. When men become millionaires because they have been independent and determined from the beginning it supposedly makes them "inspirational" and "powerful". But when a woman wants to be independent and not rely on the charity of her husband then she is materialistic and power hungry. It's so hypocritical.

in fact if a woman becomes "well-off" she will truly appreciate the gifts Allah has bestowed upon her. Once again, just generalising that only the women who become well-off suddenly lose their piouty and religiousnes. Men too lose their closeness to Allah (if they had it to begin with) when they become rich. It's human nature, everyone becomes infatuated with materialistic things when they do well financially, some people succeed in dealing with it and some don't. 

But being independent does not mean you're suddenly a millionaire and lose all connection with god. I think you've mixed the idea of independance and financial success. The two do not amount to each other. One may lead to another but they are not that closely linked.

Edited by Amira00

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6 hours ago, Enlightened Follower said:

Most Men in the West in the Millennial and Z generation have never even been in a relationship with a women, this likely explains the numbers of frustrated male youth in the West many male shooters had issues with their social lives and were sexually frustrated leading them to commit mass shootings(Elliot Rodger, Omar Mateen etc.)

 

6 hours ago, Enlightened Follower said:

Women are becoming "independent" aka materialistic and well off and the lack of religiosity and piousness leads to this:

This is a vicious cycle leading to destruction of society and single mothers and children without fathers:

Salam, 

would you mind clarifying some things? You say independent women are materialistic women who also lack faith, but encourage young men to engage in extramarital relationships? So you shame women for their independence, but encourage men to commit sins? Unless you mean to say, they should be marrying women at a young age. That would explain your frustration, considering an increasing number of young women choose to pursue a higher education and therefore opt for a later marriage. Because they are career driven and often well established in their working place, they also tend to become "pickier". She would want a man who can compete with her. So now, you're not only competing with your fellow man but the women too. Focus from a woman's beauty has also started to shift. People are now also interested in her career and education- her independence if you like. I think that is a very healthy change. 

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1 hour ago, Amira00 said:

How has independence suddenly become materialistic? 

Relying on one's self makes you strong. Not materialistic. When men become millionaires because they have been independent and determined from the beginning it supposedly makes them "inspirational" and "powerful". But when a woman wants to be independent and not rely on the charity of her husband then she is materialistic and power hungry. It's so hypocritical.

in fact if a woman becomes "well-off" she will truly appreciate the gifts Allah has bestowed upon her.

In the case of secular materialism and most women in the West don’t value relationships, men who are millionaires will marry poor women but a female doctor would never marry say a male plumber she would want someone who out earns her at least this is the case in Western culture.

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29 minutes ago, yusur317 said:

 

Salam, 

would you mind clarifying some things? You say independent women are materialistic women who also lack faith, but encourage young men to engage in extramarital relationships? So you shame women for their independence, but encourage men to commit sins? Unless you mean to say, they should be marrying women at a young age. That would explain your frustration, considering an increasing number of young women choose to pursue a higher education and therefore opt for a later marriage. Because they are career driven and often well established in their working place, they also tend to become "pickier". She would want a man who can compete with her. So now, you're not only competing with your fellow man but the women too. Focus from a woman's beauty has also started to shift. People are now also interested in her career and education- her independence if you like. I think that is a very healthy change. 

Never made any mention of extramarital relationships being right, simply pointing out the structures that were built to make access of sex whether through marriage or other means is becoming scarce leading to this crisis.

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34 minutes ago, yusur317 said:

She would want a man who can compete with her. So now, you're not only competing with your fellow man but the women too.

The major problem is less men are entering college in Western countries leading to inequal levels of education between men and women, this also leads to lower incomes among men as they are expected to take the blue collar jobs i.e. construction work etc.

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2 hours ago, Enlightened Follower said:

In the case of secular materialism and most women in the West don’t value relationships, men who are millionaires will marry poor women but a female doctor would never marry say a male plumber she would want someone who out earns her at least this is the case in Western culture.

Where is the proof for all the statements you've made? Firstly, there are people who "don't value relationships" in every group of people and in both genders. I live in the west myself, so I dont really know where you're getting all this info from. Women do want relationships but unfortunately not many men accept a driven and powerful women, and it just hurts their ego. I'm not generalising; of course there are men out there who appreciate an independent woman, but at the same time alot of them don't. That explains why a woman may not necessarily marry at such a young age. 

Secondly, I assure you, in the west especially, it has been so much more accepted for women to marry/be in relationships with younger men than themselves. Hence it is also more acceoted for a woman to marry a man who is less educated than her, and earns less money than her. In the west, of all places, women are encouraged to continue working even into motherhood, so really I dont know where you're getting all these statements from. 

However, there is nothing wrong with a woman wanting a man with a similar intellectual capacity as her. You'll find that alot of marital problems arise when two people dont understand each other because of the difference in the level of their education. Sometimes  - not in all cases - if the couple are not of the same/similar intellectual capability, then they won't get along, because they view things differently and may not necessarily get along. 

Edited by Amira00

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3 hours ago, Amira00 said:

Where is the proof for all the statements you've made? Firstly, there are people who "don't value relationships" in every group of people and in both genders. I live in the west myself, so I dont really know where you're getting all this info from. Women do want relationships but unfortunately not many men accept a driven and powerful women, and it just hurts their ego. I'm not generalising; of course there are men out there who appreciate an independent woman, but at the same time alot of them don't. That explains why a woman may not necessarily marry at such a young age. 

Secondly, I assure you, in the west especially, it has been so much more accepted for women to marry/be in relationships with younger men than themselves. Hence it is also more acceoted for a woman to marry a man who is less educated than her, and earns less money than her. In the west, of all places, women are encouraged to continue working even into motherhood, so really I dont know where you're getting all these statements from. 

However, there is nothing wrong with a woman wanting a man with a similar intellectual capacity as her. You'll find that alot of marital problems arise when two people dont understand each other because of the difference in the level of their education. Sometimes  - not in all cases - if the couple are not of the same/similar intellectual capability, then they won't get along, because they view things differently and may not necessarily get along. 

Assalamualaikum Warahmatullahi Wabarakatuh,

I do live in the West and Sister Amira00 is right. Men who grew up with Eastern values do have indeed ego problems.  However, sadly "driven and powerful women" most of the time (emphasis on "most") do have attitude/arrogance issues.  "The grass is always greener on the other side" and the marriage ends up in the divorce.  We ought not to forget, in all major religions, arrogance was the first sin to be committed.

I think for a successful marriage to work, there is a need for mutual respect and sincere and honest communication.....

https://aifs.gov.au/sites/default/files/publication-documents/WP20.pdf

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5 hours ago, LaurenW said:

And what about the women who are frustrated at not being able to find a happy relationship, they don't commit mass murder?! At the end of the day men need to take responsibility for their own behaviour and actions. There's a reason these men are single and its not because women are 'materialistic', its because these men treat women badly!

Surely materialistic women would be more likely to get into relationships with men who will provide for them and allow them to gain more material possessions?

Salam,

I believe this is due to emotional support women receive from peers, women are perceived as non threatening in most social situations, whereas men are labeled as creeps. This why you commonly see social circles with a woman who is unattractive or has low SMV where as man who is average will be lucky to form the same social connections.

Even in a non romantic non sexual setting women are favored more due to comfort and seemingly non threatening ideas about them.

 

Just one example,

Breakups hurt women more in the short term but men NEVER recover

http://dailym.ai/1MdrYCp via @MailOnline

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The Holy Prophet (SAW) in the farewell of Hajj said about symptoms during the apocalypse at the end othe  men, like women, and women also like men, and the women  interval ride, for the women of my nation, God damn them. !!! (وساله الشیع; جلد 15, page 349)
Now the question:This hadith is not true right nowIn general, including non-sexual behaviors, some men and women tend to have sex with their opposite sex. Hence, they make themselves similar to the opposite sex, for example, a man wears a woman's dress and a woman wears a masculine dress and is thus stimulated. In this paradigm, the man tends to be object and the woman tends to be the subject. Also, the things that, with the imagination of the opposite sex clothing, are provoked by the person and, in his mind, reach sexual pleasure. Men who make up themselves as women are also from this group.The Prophet (PBUH) states, counting a number of sexual deviations and other non-normative acts that the groups of apocalyptic people suffer from:My Seat next generation ... Ytzynvn Bzynh Women Lzvjha ... Yqvl Allah: then he turned Fkhlf I'm Zava Khalaf Al-Salat and Atbva Alshhvat Fsvf atte Ylqvn. (1). (2)Once upon a time, I will come to see that groups of men, like women's makeup, make arrangements for their husbands. These are the examples of the Almighty God saying: "After the worthy people came, those who missed prayers and followed the lusts. They quickly drown in error. "Also, the Prophet (pbuh) states: "People who have the opposite sexually related sexual role are blessed by God's mercy and the grace of angels."Allah and Almighty Allah (pbuh) Al-Raja'l Tânth and Imam Hussein (3)
God and angels, curse, take a man who has a female role and a woman who is male.

Imam Sadeq (AS) also believes in any role played by the opposite sex to the motive of sexual desires, including deviations from the natural path.Cursing the Prophet (pbuh): Almtshbhyn I Balnsa’ Men and women's Almtshbhat Balrjal I cry: and Almkhnsvn and Allaty Ynkh some Hlk Verily Allah and the people of Lot operative gynecology such action Men: Bzhn sometimes extremely large mandate. 

(4)The Surah of Maryam  , verse 59.
2. Al-Kafi, v.3, p. 270; Wesh al-Shi'a, vol. 15, p. 343.
3. Mustradak Al-Wasel, v. 14, p. 349, Hadith. 16919; Jamea al-Haythi al-Shi'a, vol. 20, p. 17.
4. Al-Kafi, vol. 5, p. 550, Bahar al-Anwar, vol. 79, p. 68.

http://www.soalcity.ir/node/2704

 

http://www.welayatnet.com/fa/news/21575

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13 hours ago, AnotherShepherd said:

Wait, what? How does that relate? 

Salaamun akeikum, its because one of the main reasons men seek out relationships with women in the first place  is their sexual drive. Its part of guaranteeing survival of the species. Once intercourse is achieved with a woman, surges of hormons,like oxytocin, which is the "bonding"hormon, floods the brain and men become even more cemented and attached to the woman and the relationship. 

When a man engages in porn,masterbation, etc, not only is he satisfying his need without a woman, but he is cementing the idea that he doesnt need a relationship (marriage) to fullfill this desire as hes doing it on his own and with less stress,responsibility, etc.that comes with having an actuall relationship.( This alone can lead to less masculine men as they end up shirking the masculine roles Allahسُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى has assigned to them and enforcing more feministic and childish attributes into themselves mentally and spiritually)  Hes forming an abnormal and unislamic bond to porn, attachment to the act and to himself as the hormonal surge happens regardless if it is with an actuall woman or simply sensory stimuli. who is he associating this wonderfull feeling flood of hormons and chemicals with?? Porn and himself.:/ All of this fosters a very imbalanced man, mentality, spirituality, physically and sexually. Repetition of this action can also lead to addiction, further reinforcing all these problems and distancing him from actuall human reletionships. As humans, we need interaction with each other ,because if there is no one there to "check" us or advise us of the shortcommings we are blind to, people develope very weird and antisocial behaviors and thought processes after awhike. Ive seen this first hand a few different times.

Anyhow,

Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى has made this action  impermissable, for BOTH sexes, for many reasons, and this situation is clearly one when you take all this into consideration and look at the harm it causes.

W/s

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Still, the responsibility for men receiving more emotional support from their peers lies with men themselves. Maybe men need more feminine influence so they can learn to give appropriate emotional support to their peers, it would also help them to recover from break ups...

That’s a bit ridiculous men cannot change the innate biology of women that determines whether they react negatively or positively to them also studies have shown women prefer men who are dominant and with testosterone than those have low T levels.

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37 minutes ago, MuslimahAK said:

Where I live, the men are pampered and frequently live with their parents up to a scary age. and yes, i live in USA. And many of teh girls, myself included, were independent and living on our own as teenagers. 

The main issue is there are body positive movements for women, women are encouraged to be whatever they want even if make bad decisions. On the other hand men are required to perform, construct roads, take all the labor intensive jobs and Western society disrespects them and encourages them to become more feminine and emotional and when that advice doesn’t work negative consequences result and men become even more frustrated.

This wave of extreme feminism has lead to herbivore men in Japan and Men Going Their Own Way or MGTOW who avoid women all together unfortunately.

 

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2 minutes ago, Enlightened Follower said:

The main issue is there are body positive movements for women, women are encouraged to be whatever they want even if make bad decisions. On the other hand men are required to perform, construct roads, take all the labor intensive jobs and Western society disrespects them and encourages them to become more feminine and emotional and when that advice doesn’t work negative consequences result and men become even more frustrated.

This wave of extreme feminism has lead to herbivore men in Japan and Men Going Their Own Way or MGTOW who avoid women all together unfortunately.

 

I do agree that some radical feminists are going too far and have distorted the actuall meaning of feminism. Feminism means the equality between men and women. We know they are not the same physically, but feminism demands that men and women are treated equally, I.e they both have a right to education, to work, to earn the same etc. But some radical feminists have taken it too far and have ironically become sexist themselves against men. 

Linking back to the physical differences between men and women, it's only natural that men take the labor intensive jobs because they are better equipped for them physically. That doesn't mean that only men take the labour intensive jobs, it just that only a minority of women consider themselves fit enough to do them.  I don't understand where the unfairness is here. 

Also, being emotional is not a feeling restricted only to women. Men cry too, they get upset and angry too. Men go through the same emotions, but society has taught them to silence those emotions because it's "unmanly". Encouraging men to express their emotions can only be seen as right. I don't understand what you mean by "that advice doesn't work".

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It is about how strong someone is.I agree that somewhere women are exaggerating with feminism but if a man comes to the point where he is not feeling manly enough is because he is not strong enough. They lack self respect. And they have not found their place in the society. It would be wrong to  blame women in this scenario  because women don't stand on the corner of a street  and assault a man or abuse him to make  him feel little.Because when women have to face similiar challenges thats when she starts being strong and starts speaking.and it is a man's world that why even when a woman speaks out she is declared a wanna be faminist because only a man has the right to be strong.Women are supposed to endure in silence. Men has created the world we are living in today.The feminism policy is famous in the wrong part of the world and for all the wrong reasons. Feminism is not about being liberal as it is believed in most of the asian countries. But it is about respect. Women demand and deserve respect.they need to be heard.If you give a woman the respect she deserves she won't even have to go for the feminism tag because then everything will be all right on its own.We live in a world where women go as high to even lead a country but in the same countries men are bullying women.there are job issues.wage issues.abuse issues.Men are raping them.burning them,killing them and what not.so thats what needs to change.A woman must be listened and respected so that she doesn't has to speak louder for her sake and be labeled.

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8 minutes ago, Enlightened Follower said:

It's been tried it's not that simple no one in society has sympathy for men, they are required to perform.

And even for this only men are to be blamed. It's too late now.they did everything wrong for centuries and it's not women fault if the men of this generation are weak.and this is hilarious that men are required to perform...women are doing the same hard work as men. You said it just like in my family. They would tell us..teach us how to serve a man when he comes home from work...Why ? Doesn't the woman work hard in the house or even outside of the house if required. Do you even offer her a glass of water when she comes home from work or has worked all day in the kitchen or house ? Women have been enduring for so long and men just started to taste their own medicine and they are turning feminine.It's actually funny.At the end i think that Allah made Men superior but a woman has more inner strength.she waits to stand up for herself when all the boats have burned. While a man cannot endure even an insult pronounced by a woman.

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4 hours ago, Enlightened Follower said:

The main issue is there are body positive movements for women, women are encouraged to be whatever they want even if make bad decisions. On the other hand men are required to perform, construct roads, take all the labor intensive jobs and Western society disrespects them and encourages them to become more feminine and emotional and when that advice doesn’t work negative consequences result and men become even more frustrated.

This wave of extreme feminism has lead to herbivore men in Japan and Men Going Their Own Way or MGTOW who avoid women all together unfortunately.

 

Body positivity is primarily due to higher obesity rates and serve as counter-culture to female narrow demands of attractiveness and deeply-rooted Anglo-Saxon ideals. (Skinny, blonde, fair skinned.) 

Besides, Islam teaches society that men should not judge a woman by what she looks like, but by her Akhlaq, Deen, and character. Body Positivity is, in essence, an attempt to teach the same thing although it’s message might not be clearly communicated. 

In the end, men and women come in all shapes and sizes and skin tones and faces. Allah created variety within the human race. Although obesity is a controllable state, many people lack proper knowledge and resources on how to maintain a healthy weight.

And, more importantly, men should accept women for what she looks like. There’s always someone more attractive and younger, hotter, etc. But what matters is the companionship and bond that has been created by a husband and wife. A wife will bear the pain of children, a product of your love, so how can men turn their backs on their wives after a little (or a lot) of weight gain? 

That’s what Body Positivity teaches. No matter who you are, how you present yourself, or what you look like, you deserve to be loved, and respected, treated humanely. And that the right person will love you. You can find love. If you don’t like fat women, then find someone who meets your standards of beauty, but don’t expect people to conform. Many heavier women, despite being louder and more confident in voicing their opinions, actually suffer from very low self-esteem and posses a negative self-image. Telling a fat woman to not hold onto to Body Positivity might make her hate herself even more. 

This is coming from a thinner woman, who has lost a lot of weight three years ago, and I’ve kept it off. (50 pounds.) 

 

Edited by Islandsandmirrors

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Brother, what you see on social media does not represent real life. Sit down and actually talk to married men/other women.

With regards to bigger women/men, I think obesity is a result of more than just poor choices. There is an underlying cause, whether a medical or mental health problem. These need to be addressed. Both genders should have access to support communities.

I think what needs special attention are male victims of domestic abuse....

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I tend to learn what is the meaning of man to be a man and a woman to be a woman from Al Qur'an and Hadist point of view.

What is exactly the job inherently given by Allah SWT to a man and/or a woman. And if his job is not fulfilled then is he still a man and/or a woman ?

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1 hour ago, yusur317 said:

I think what needs special attention are male victims of domestic abuse....

I agree, feminism does not tend to recognize this phenomenon. Jordan Peterson covers many of the aspects wrong with feminism, wage gap theory etc.

If we need to gain something such as women’s rights we should do so from an Islamic frame and not a secular materialist point of view, feminism promotes LGBTism and other ideas that have no basis in science but rather cultural norms.

Khomeini also condemns feminism for this very reason it produces narcissistic ideologues who bash men for simply existing.

If I see a problem in society i.e poverty I’m not going to create an ideology that cannot be questioned such as Anti-povertism etc

Many men have gotten so desperate as to seek mail order brides from Asia and East Europe, but once they get here they adopt American culture and change completely.

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How does the assertion that men are "becoming more feminine" become a battle of the sexes?

Why not just talk about the alleged feminization of men?  

Can we start by defining what is "feminine"? Maybe also as a counter, let's talk about what is "masculine"?  I actually don't know.  I think typically it's a feminine trait to have greater empathy, but that's a positive trait. Men gaining it would not be a loss, but I see no evidence that anyone's empathy is increasing.  If anything, our society is losing capacity for empathy. Broader shoulders and greater physical strength is a masculine trait, right?  Is that being lost?  What else?

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20 hours ago, Amira00 said:

I do agree that some radical feminists are going too far and have distorted the actuall meaning of feminism. Feminism means the equality between men and women. We know they are not the same physically, but feminism demands that men and women are treated equally, I.e they both have a right to education, to work, to earn the same etc. But some radical feminists have taken it too far and have ironically become sexist themselves against men. 

Linking back to the physical differences between men and women, it's only natural that men take the labor intensive jobs because they are better equipped for them physically. That doesn't mean that only men take the labour intensive jobs, it just that only a minority of women consider themselves fit enough to do them.  I don't understand where the unfairness is here. 

Also, being emotional is not a feeling restricted only to women. Men cry too, they get upset and angry too. Men go through the same emotions, but society has taught them to silence those emotions because it's "unmanly". Encouraging men to express their emotions can only be seen as right. I don't understand what you mean by "that advice doesn't work".

3

Assalamun Alaikum Warahmatullahi Wabarakatuh.

Mashallah a very interesting discussion.  According to radical feminists especially in the West, "Men is the enemy". I am pretty sure some men are responsible for gender inequality etc. However, I think the real enemies are legal injustice and unfair stigmas. There is a need to eliminate the real enemies in order to achieve gender equality etc....

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10 hours ago, Reza said:

That’s the natural progression these discussions seem to take.

It's counterproductive. That's why I pointed it out and suggested a redirection. 

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