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In the Name of God بسم الله

Men in the West are becoming Feminized

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The focus of this topic is men becoming effeminate. This is not a discussion of feminism or women's rights, or even of women becoming masculine. Please stay on topic.

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On 4/26/2018 at 2:35 PM, Silas said:

The problem we face in the west, is that even if men are traditionally "masculine", they lack conviction, honesty, character, and piety.

In other words, we have guys who lift weights, hunt, play sports, etc., but are also emotionally weak, promiscuous, unprincipled, and unreliable. 

Likewise, we have beautiful women without restraint and character, who chase after material things, and have a disdain for marriage and family.

The solution to this (aside from religion) is to fix the culture, not retreat from one's responsibilities to start a family, as the MGTOW guys would do. I have seen what the superficial, live-for-the-moment lifestyle does to men and women--it leads to disaster later, as they find themselves unmarried, and without family when they hit age 40. 

So in your eyes Masculine men are full of conviction, honesty, character, and piety. Whereas Feminine men are emotionally weak, promiscuous, unprincipled, and unreliable.

Not at all my definition.

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1 minute ago, andres said:

So in your eyes Masculine men are full of conviction, honesty, character, and piety. Whereas Feminine men are emotionally weak, promiscuous, unprincipled, and unreliable.

Not at all my definition.

Femnine men are the anti thesis to progress economically and socially, lower testosterone equals less drive and mental clarity.

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3 minutes ago, andres said:

So in your eyes Masculine men are full of conviction, honesty, character, and piety. Whereas Feminine men are emotionally weak, promiscuous, unprincipled, and unreliable.

Not at all my definition.

Also feminine men are more likely to be stepped on and used as they are powerless and weak no competent women would want them in a relationship.

Elliot Rodger and the recent Toronto shooter were both emotional and effeminate, look how far that got them....

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5 minutes ago, andres said:

So in your eyes Masculine men are full of conviction, honesty, character, and piety. Whereas Feminine men are emotionally weak, promiscuous, unprincipled, and unreliable.

Not at all my definition.

No, I said that some masculine men lack these qualities even though they are "masculine". In other words, physical strength is not strength of character, or emotional strength.

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1 minute ago, Silas said:

No, I said that some masculine men lack these qualities even though they are "masculine". In other words, physical strength is not strength of character, or emotional strength.

Exactly a man can be very muscular but overly emotional and easily controlled.

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On 4/26/2018 at 2:51 PM, Silas said:

I have a different take on this whole thing ...

I work in a pretty demanding, high-stress field, and my wife stays home to raise and educate the children (we homeschool).

Whenever she gets worried or insecure because she is not out working as a professional, or following a career, I remind her that what she does at home is infinitely more important than what I do at work. I make money to support her efforts within the household, as the well-being of the family is my primary mission in life. 

Men and women have different prerogatives and tasks, but their mission is the same (I venture to say that this is consistent with Islam). Earning a high salary and driving a fancy car does not make you a "strong" woman, or even particularly successful when we look at it from the perspective of what is really important (to serve God and family, and to pave the way for the next generation).

Men and women are equal in the eyes of God, but they are not the same. These Swedish women want to be men, and to renounce marriage, family, stability, restraint, and religion. They want nice clothes and expensive coffee, and they want to lord over men, out of a kind of perverse resentment. 

Some couples in Sweden have the same jobb, earning the same. School teachers for example.  If they have different jobbs, in most marriages the man earns more than the wife. -this is the most common category. In marriages where only one work, the wife normally stays at home. Which is the best solution for Swedes depends on so many factors that it is impossible to say. If you and your wife are satisfied with your situation, this is fine. 

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On 4/26/2018 at 3:09 PM, andres said:

Some couples in Sweden have the same jobb, earning the same. School teachers for example.  If they have different jobbs, in most marriages the man earns more than the wife. -this is the most common category. In marriages where only one work, the wife normally stays at home. Which is the best solution for Swedes depends on so many factors that it is impossible to say. If you and your wife are satisfied with your situation, this is fine. 

Swedish society will never be world conquerors anymore or similar to how they were during the Viking Age. Even the last remnants of tradition, Christianity is leaving Sweden....

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4 minutes ago, Silas said:

No, I said that some masculine men lack these qualities even though they are "masculine". In other words, physical strength is not strength of character, or emotional strength.

Some men. Of course. Men are not all alike. 

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Just now, Enlightened Follower said:

Swedish society will never be world conquerors anymore or similar to how they were during the Viking Age. 

Vikings, robbed, killed and raped. We have had peace for over 209 years now.  Is this not a lot better than being conquerors?

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11 minutes ago, andres said:

Can you define what you mean by mascular and feminine men?

Men who are depressed express their emotions to society and women but are still ridiculed because they come off as incompetent and weak.

Essentially men with no purpose in life i.e. Elliot Rodgers, Alex Minassian

Masculinity and Femininity are character traits a guy who is skinny, short, and confident can come across as more “masculine” than a ripped muscular guy with mommy issues.

Edited by Enlightened Follower
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I think getting too caught up in what is "feminine" vs. "Masculine" can be problematic. Obviously, there are masculine virtues such as courage, fortitude, and self-sacrifice, but those things do not exclusively belong to men: they are simply expected of men.

Likewise, feminine virtues would include a nurturing instinct, being agreeable, having a strong moral compass, embracing beauty, etc.

I am a pretty masculine guy who enjoys things like boxing, the outdoors, military history, etc., but I can also enjoy things like figure skating (watching it, not doing it lol), fine art, opera, etc. --to me it is part of being cultured, even though some men might find it feminine. 

What we should worry about is men who are weak in character and emotion. I have a friend who is married to a Japanese woman who lords over him. She controls the money in the household, and doesn't even give him the PIN to the ATM card. She keeps constant tabs on him and dictates his social life. He is a weak guy who is behaving in a submissive and passive manner. 

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58 minutes ago, Silas said:

What we should worry about is men who are weak in character and emotion. I have a friend who is married to a Japanese woman who lords over him. She controls the money in the household, and doesn't even give him the PIN to the ATM card. She keeps constant tabs on him and dictates his social life. He is a weak guy who is behaving in a submissive and passive manner. 

You are describing a disfunctinal marriage, nothing to do with feminin or masculine men. Shall we not also worry about women who are weak in character and emotion? And over men that controls the money in the household, and doesn't even give the wife the PIN to the ATM card?. Men that keeps constant tabs on the wife and dictates her social life. 

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2 minutes ago, andres said:

What has this got to do with masculinity? Shall we not also worry about women who are weak in character and emotion? And over men that controls the money in the household, and doesn't even give the wife the PIN to the ATM card?. Men that keeps constant tabs on the wife and dictates her social life. 

Masculinity has to do with a man exerting power and control over his life.

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47 minutes ago, Enlightened Follower said:

By weak it is meant the man is Beta and not Alpha, the latter being an Ubermensch and achieving anything he wants in life. The former being dominated by others and having frustrated and depressed living.

So people that dominate others are masculine and people that are being dominated are feminine?

 

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1 hour ago, andres said:

Can a powerful woman that has control over her life not be feminine?

She can but the balance is tedious, if you consider Serena Williams and other female body builders feminine then sure but they’re defying the biological norm rather than living up to it.

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3 hours ago, Enlightened Follower said:

Masculinity has to do with a man exerting power and control over his life.

You mean you think masculinity means having control over a woman. :dry:

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2 hours ago, Enlightened Follower said:

She can but the balance is tedious, if you consider Serena Williams and other female body builders feminine then sure but they’re defying the biological norm rather than living up to it.

What are you even talking about? 

Body builders and having control over one’s life are two different aspects and none of them have to do with femininity.

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4 hours ago, Enlightened Follower said:

By weak it is meant the man is Beta and not Alpha, the latter being an Ubermensch and achieving anything he wants in life. The former being dominated by others and having frustrated and depressed living.

Dude, “Beta” and “alpha” are extreme characteristics and no man fits into any of the two categories entirely. 

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4 hours ago, Enlightened Follower said:

 

A very odd answer to my question: "Can a powerful woman that has control over her life not be feminine?"

Mammals have a very different sexual behaviour from Birds, but even within the Mammal family species have very different family pattern. Family patterns even vary between Human cultures. 

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It seems to me that every positive "male" characteristic is also good in females and vice versa, except physical attributes. Men who appear soft and smooth are unappealing to most adult women, and I'd guess that women who are hard and coarse bodied are unappealing to most males. 

Men who are compassionate and collaborative and able to multitask well are probably more appealing than men who only have typically male behavioral traits of detachment, competition, and single-focus. 

 

Which of these is allegedly being lost? The physical or the behavioral?

Edited by notme
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25 minutes ago, notme said:

It seems to me that every positive "male" characteristic is also good in females and vice versa, except physical attributes. Men who appear soft and smooth are unappealing to most adult women, and I'd guess that women who are hard and coarse bodied are unappealing to most males. 

Men who are compassionate and collaborative and able to multitask well are probably more appealing than men who only have typically male behavioral traits of detachment, competition, and single-focus. 

 

Which of these is allegedly being lost? The physical or the behavioral?

Jordon Peterson did a breakdown in personality traits, the research has shown men are high in disagreeableness, low conscientiousness, and high in assertiveness.

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52 minutes ago, Enlightened Follower said:

If modern society is of any judge then both.

Your verdict is that western gender pattern is bad. A western judgement of Muslim gender pattern generally is that it is bad. Different cultures have different standards, and standards change because of necessity. Saudi women will now be allowed to drive. There is more to come. Where there are educated women, they will fight for equality, and males role will change. To a less dominating but more intelligent masculinity.   

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1 hour ago, Enlightened Follower said:

Jordon Peterson did a breakdown in personality traits, the research has shown men are high in disagreeableness, low conscientiousness, and high in assertiveness.

Losing disagreeableness and gaining conscientiousness would be an improvement not a deficiency. 

Jordan Peterson is not an Islamic authority anyway.

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10 minutes ago, andres said:

Your verdict is that western gender pattern is bad. A western judgement of Muslim gender pattern generally is that it is bad. Different cultures have different standards, and standards change because of necessity. Saudi women will now be allowed to drive. There is more to come. Where there are educated women, they will fight for equality, and males role will change. To a less dominating but more intelligent masculinity.   

It’s quite simple a demasculated culture is one in decline, the EU is shrinking as a percentage of the world economy and European birth rates are below replacement. Europe will be outdone by China and the more masculine hardened forces of the East.

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8 minutes ago, notme said:

Losing disagreeableness and gaining conscientiousness would be an improvement not a deficiency. 

Jordan Peterson is not an Islamic authority anyway.

Yes but disagreeableness allows us to stand up to injustice even when someone is wrong but popular. Conscientious means being self conscious and not being able to do anything for fear of judgement this is not the means Muslim conduct has ever been in the Prophet’s time or any other time.

Also Jordan Peterson is a clinical psychologist and can give us insights on human nature.

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