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Sumerian

Iran-Contra affair

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19 minutes ago, notme said:

I don't know that it is. I'm wondering how it connects to current events. 

wether its true or not... its not related to todays events... this was 40 years ago.. are you saying trump and ayt.khamanei are in secret talks?? :)

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3 minutes ago, kirtc said:

wether its true or not... its not related to todays events... this was 40 years ago.. are you saying trump and ayt.khamanei are in secret talks?? :)

It wasn't 40 years ago, but it was a while back - I suppose there's no sense quibbling over numbers. No, I'm not saying Khamanei and Trump are in secret talks, I said I'm interested in hearing how it connects to current events. If the discussion is irrelevant to you, why are you reading it and responding? We have at least a half dozen pointless discussions every day. Do you denounce each one? 

Edited by notme

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The book; The Treacherous Alliance: the secret dealings of Israel, Iran and the United States, attempts to uncover even more details about these alleged arms deals. The brother @Mohamed1993 has already read the book and has said it was impressive.

The book is written by Trita Parsi, someone who is accused by pro-Israeli and pro-Saudi politicians in the US of being an Iranian lobbyist, he is also someone who enjoys a form of closeness with current FM Javad Zarif.

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37 minutes ago, notme said:

It wasn't 40 years ago, but it was a while back - I suppose there's no sense quibbling over numbers. No, I'm not saying Khamanei and Trump are in secret talks, I said I'm interested in hearing how it connects to current events. If the discussion is irrelevant to you, why are you reading it and responding? We have at least a half dozen pointless discussions every day. Do you denounce each one? 

I denounce the ones that I think will bring people further away from the truth.. they are usually by the same members as those members are lost..

they are taking us backwards instead of forwards and this one of those threads. sumerian is a teenager thats never been to iraq.. he cares about rolexs and jackets.. he wants to be cool and rebel and not conform to having an  organized movement like Iran's so is looking for a way to discredit them.. little does he know hes doing a great wrong to himself and to the religion by posting this kind of nonsense and people with little bassira take the bait..

Im just making sure someone realizes this is garbage

Edited by Khadim uz Zahra

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1 minute ago, kirtc said:

Im just making sure someone realizes this is garbage

But calling is garbage isn't going to work - you have to refute it. Shia are a thinking people. Words without substance will never sway them for long. 

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More on this here;

https://mobile.nytimes.com/1982/03/08/world/iran-said-to-get-large-scale-arms-from-israel-soviet-and-europeans.html

- Former Carter administration officials confirm arms deals between Iran and Israel in 1980.

- Western Intelligence sources themselves did not know this information until they were made prevy to it or had to find out themselves. 

- This means it is a mystery to us whether full American consent was given to Israel in order for these sales to occur. 

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2 hours ago, kirtc said:

I denounce the ones that I think will bring people further away from the truth.. they are usually by the same members as those members are lost..

they are taking us backwards instead of forwards and this one of those threads. sumerian is a teenager thats never been to iraq.. he cares about rolexs and jackets.. he wants to be cool and rebel and not conform to having an  organized movement like Iran's so is looking for a way to discredit them.. little does he know hes doing a great wrong to himself and to the religion by posting this kind of nonsense and people with little bassira take the bait..

Im just making sure someone realizes this is garbage

So, it's not true? Exactly what is your point here? That Sumerian can't refer to a true story just because he's a teenager? A story that was confirmed by the Iranian government itself?

Edited by notme
Edited unauthorized personal info from quote.

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12 minutes ago, Khadim uz Zahra said:

So, it's not true? Exactly what is your point here? That Sumerian can't refer to a true story just because he's a teenager? A story that was first made public by the Iranian government itself, according to the video?

 

For the backstory on the person who originally leaked the story to a Lebanese newspaper;

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mehdi_Hashemi

Edited by Khadim uz Zahra

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10 minutes ago, Khadim uz Zahra said:

So, it's not true? Exactly what is your point here? That Sumerian can't refer to a true story just because he's a teenager? A story that was confirmed by the Iranian government itself?

what is his motive behind posting this.. what if the deal was negotiated in the shah days and continued in 1980.. that is like saying if trump were to pay Iran now the money US owes due to the iranian nuclear deal done with obama... someone 40 years from now can say trump gave the iranian regime millions of dollars.. this is a possibility no? who knows the preceding negotiations that led to this if it were true.. 

but again what is the motive of this thread? that once iran colluded with israel.. ok, then? 

are you saying israel and iran are secretly allies now? if not, then this bit of news is pointless...

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2 minutes ago, kirtc said:

what is his motive behind posting this.. what if the deal was negotiated in the shah days and continued in 1980.. that is like saying if trump were to pay Iran now the money US owes due to the iranian nuclear deal done with obama... someone 40 years from now can say trump gave the iranian regime millions of dollars.. this is a possibility no? who knows the preceding negotiations that led to this if it were true.. 

but again what is the motive of this thread? that once iran colluded with israel.. ok, then? 

are you saying israel and iran are secretly allies now? if not, then this bit of news is pointless...

The deals were approved by the Reagan administration which was after the Shah had already been toppled. In fact, certain reports indicate the deals were going on through the mid-80s. 

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So let me get this straight. You make a tradeoff with the enemy.........You have something of theirs, they want it back, so you take something from them. What's the problem?

And just a tip, when looking into a controversial affair that is between muslims and non muslims, the least one can do is look into the case from both views. All i see here is reports and articles from nytimes etc.

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One theory which many point out is the US knew the only way to get to Iran (in order to secure the release of the hostages) was through Israel, because Israel was said to be in an active arms trade relationship with Iran throughout the 80s.

5 minutes ago, repenter said:

And just a tip, when looking into a controversial affair that is between muslims and non muslims, the least one can do is look into the case from both views. All i see here is reports and articles from nytimes etc.

I don't mind seeing the Iranian viewpoint, if anyone has any articles or statements from the Iranian side you're most welcome to share.

I haven't reported from the New York Times because it is the New York Times, these reports can be found anywhere. Sharon's statement in which he admitted the sales was actually said in an open press conference, it's not exclusive NYT reporting.

I've been trying to limit myself to official statements and documentations, to avoid falling into the conspiracy hole or whether this paper is reliable or this source is a liar.

Edited by Sumerian

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4 minutes ago, Sumerian said:

One theory which many point out is the US knew the only way to get to Iran (in order to secure the release of the hostages) was through Israel, because Israel was said to be in an active arms trade relationship with Iran throughout the 80s.

I don't mind seeing the Iranian viewpoint, if anyone has any articles or statements from the Iranian side you're most welcome to share.

I haven't reported from the New York Times because it is the New York Times, these reports can be found anywhere. Sharon's statement in which he admitted the sales was actually said in an open press conference, it's not exclusive NYT reporting.

I've been trying to limit myself to official statements and documentations, to avoid falling into the conspiracy hole or whether this paper is reliable or this source is a liar.

Well you are the one that started the thread, and i'm sure you did it to inform people of historical affairs. There are plenty of views from the "iranian/hezbollah" side in arabic that you could have presented as well. You speak fluent arabic mashallah, i'm sure you are able to present some nice articles and viewpoints from that side as well, then let the viewers decide what is right and what is wrong. 

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1 minute ago, repenter said:

Well you are the one that started the thread, and i'm sure you did it to inform people of historical affairs. There are plenty of views from the "iranian/hezbollah" side in arabic that you could have presented as well. You speak fluent arabic mashallah, i'm sure you are able to present some nice articles and viewpoints from that side as well, then let the viewers decide what is right and what is wrong. 

Actually I found nothing in Arabic either except from pro-Saudi or pro-Ba'athi outlets, my guess is people who belong to that camp [bolded] usually refrain from opening up about these events.

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10 minutes ago, Sumerian said:

Actually I found nothing in Arabic either except from pro-Saudi or pro-Ba'athi outlets, my guess is people who belong to that camp [bolded] usually refrain from opening up about these events.

So by that camp you mean arabs? Because i found like 15 articles, interviews etc in farsi without even trying. And you can't find a single one in arabic?

Strange don't you think?

Example

https://www.isna.ir/news/93022918859/خطاب-تند-امام-به-منتقدان-ماجرای-مک-فارلین

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5 minutes ago, repenter said:

So by that camp you mean arabs? Because i found like 15 articles, interviews etc in farsi without even trying. And you can't find a single one in arabic?

Strange don't you think?

Example

https://www.isna.ir/news/93022918859/خطاب-تند-امام-به-منتقدان-ماجرای-مک-فارلین

No, the camp which I bolded in your previous post.

No, I couldn't find one in Arabic at all.

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12 hours ago, shadow_of_light said:

I cannot understand something: when you are badly in need of weapons (for defensive purposes), is it important if you buy them from someone whom you dont like (if there is no other option)?

In war, also soft war, it is not a problem to trade or make deals with the enemy. The problem arises if the enemy abuses the deal, so one has to be smart.

Iran had some simpletons and still does that will make such mistakes. Such as the nuclear deal. Back then the Iran Contra affair was not a bad deal, however they broke their treaty like they did with nuclear deal now, and also sneakily involved Israel which Imam Khomeini was furious about. The link i pasted is Imam Khomeinis letter to Rafsanjani where he explains his opinion and position and more.

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6 minutes ago, Sumerian said:

No, the camp which I bolded in your previous post.

No, I couldn't find one in Arabic at all.

I know thats what you meant, it was sarcastic, due to me finding a lot in farsi. I find it strange that you can't manage to find anything in arabic

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Ronald Reagan writes in his biography what he thinks happened, says Israel proposed the deal to America, blames Israel for possibly lying about "Iranian moderates", and talks about McFarlane.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1990/11/05/reagan-calls-israel-prime-mover-in-iran-contra/71b08cdd-eaa8-43aa-a744-e5949f93764e/?utm_term=.d433217ea4ba

5 minutes ago, repenter said:

I know thats what you meant, it was sarcastic, due to me finding a lot in farsi. I find it strange that you can't manage to find anything in arabic

I guess the Arabs from that camp would rather stay silent. Like I said, I haven't found a single article either in defense of Iran or speaking from the Iranian viewpoint in Arabic. 

Edited by Sumerian

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38 minutes ago, Sumerian said:

Ronald Reagan writes in his biography what he thinks happened, says Israel proposed the deal to America, blames Israel for possibly lying about "Iranian moderates", and talks about McFarlane.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1990/11/05/reagan-calls-israel-prime-mover-in-iran-contra/71b08cdd-eaa8-43aa-a744-e5949f93764e/?utm_term=.d433217ea4ba

I guess the Arabs from that camp would rather stay silent. Like I said, I haven't found a single article either in defense of Iran or speaking from the Iranian viewpoint in Arabic. 

Defense? Why would it need defense?

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44 minutes ago, Sumerian said:

I guess the Arabs from that camp would rather stay silent. Like I said, I haven't found a single article either in defense of Iran or speaking from the Iranian viewpoint in Arabic. 

I am not surprised...but you'll find plenty about slave markets, prostitution, expensive cars, or which sheikh bought the virginity of some european girl for how many millions....no offence, most of the arab world cant see or think past oil wells and extravagance.

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2 hours ago, Sumerian said:

The book is written by Trita Parsi, someone who is accused by pro-Israeli and pro-Saudi politicians in the US of being an Iranian lobbyist, he is also someone who enjoys a form of closeness with current FM Javad Zarif.

Salam Trita Parsi had some connections with Iranian nuclear  negotiators group but after a short while he banned from entering to Iran & Mr Zarif & rest of politians cited their ties with him.

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47 minutes ago, alidu78 said:

This is probably true however we must never forget that at this time Iran didnt have other choices and if i remember well that was in exchange of some hostages or something like that.

Before nuclear deal Iran just had some negotiation about hostage crisis  which happend after revolution.

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9 minutes ago, alidu78 said:

@repenter excuse me but I just would like to say that some pro Islamic Republic who are not at all secular also voted for rohani during the last elections. 

Im talking in general. And those you speak of are the neutrals, they swing both ways...sort of say.

Also..i was speaking about those in political power...not the people.

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