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2Timeless

Necessity of hijab

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6 hours ago, Laayla said:

Are there hadiths from our Imams and not from the Sunni school of thought?

I have mentioned this before in front of other sisters in real life and they said where did you get these narrations from because they wouldn't except it and said it wasn't true.

They are not interested in Sunni hadiths but rather from our Imams.

Thank you for your time.

 

The first tradition quoted above is from Usul al-Kafi of Shaykh Kulayni and the third one is from 'Ilal al-Shara'i of Shaykh Saduq. Both are primary Shi'a texts. The last tradition which is from Sunni books, I mentioned it also exists in Shia works such as the Amali of Sh. Tusi.

I am not sure why anyone would even presume the women of Arabia were covering their faces for religious reasons. That would have been utterly abnormal. Also don't forget the Islamic hijab only became obligatory much later on in Medina, so before that, there was no reason for any woman to cover to such a great extent and there is no reason to presume Fatima (s) was covering extraordinarily even before the obligation of such a thing. This is why the verse of the Qur'an comes and tells us the Prophet to tell your wives, daughters and wives of the believers to cover up (33:59) - it mentions daughters as well.

Wasalam

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4 hours ago, Ibn al-Hussain said:

and there is no reason to presume Fatima (s) was covering extraordinarily even before the obligation of such a thing.

I don't get this.

My understanding had been that for example while people like Umar had been renowned alcohol drinkers prior to the revelation of the verses prohibiting such behaviour, the Ahlulbayt (a.s.) had never done so.

This might be linked to the notion I have come across (can't give you chapter and verse) that the Prophet (s.a.w) had always known the content of the Qur'an.

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On 1/16/2019 at 3:54 AM, Haji 2003 said:

I don't get this.

My understanding had been that for example while people like Umar had been renowned alcohol drinkers prior to the revelation of the verses prohibiting such behaviour, the Ahlul Bayt ((عليه السلام).) had never done so.

Many people would have been drinking alcohol before its prohibition, not just Umar. I am not sure why that is problematic whatsoever? It was part of life. It is not against any theological belief that we have to presume every single member of the Bani Hashim or other companions of the Prophet could not have drunk alcohol. Yes, the theological belief of the Shi'a argues that Prophet could not have done so, and he could not have committed any minor sins before his Prophethood either - this is also backed up by certain traditions. They will extend this argument to Imam Ali (a) as well (even though in Sunni works this is not the case since they have a report that shows Imam Ali was drunk in one instance while leading prayers - the Shias will reject those reports. As per Sunni theology, this is not problematic at all. I am sure some people remember the case of Dr. Israr Ahmed when he quoted this report once on television).

But I am not sure why we would need to extend this to the idea of clothing. Both men and women, the family of the Prophet, his wives, or other free women, would have been covering and wearing clothes like the other Arabs who were dwelling in the urban towns. There is no theological problem in this and neither is there any historical argument to back up the idea that Fatima (s) specifically had a different dress code than anyone else in the whole city. If we go with the presumption that most of these women were already covering their head and much of their hair, then it is to be presumed Fatima (s) was doing that already - especially once she was nearing the age of her marriage, which is around 9-11 and not as a child (I really hope people don't think she was wearing a chador or an abaya covered head to toe while she was growing up as a child or that she was born in the state of wearing niqab - you never know nowadays). Once the verse was revealed asking them to cover up more, such as their chest area, and perhaps their necks, then it is to be expected that Fatima (s) just like the other women such as the wives of the Prophet (p) would have all covered up in a similar fashion.

Quote

This might be linked to the notion I have come across (can't give you chapter and verse) that the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) had always known the content of the Qur'an.

You may be referring to 75:16. The understanding that the Prophet had always known the content of the Qur'an in detail (every single verse, and when it will be revealed etc.) is subject to debate and one needs to look into the idea of revelation (the notion of it being revealed once and then over time, what is the difference between these two revelations and so on).

Wasalam

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On 1/16/2019 at 9:15 AM, Laayla said:

Brother @ali_fatheroforphans  Once upon a time, one of the sisters, was respectful, but Sub7an'Allah, names were changed and her demeanor as well.  

Alhamd'Allah everything is in writing and saved.  :muslima:  That everyone is responsible for what they write and say, even if 50 years pass by. M3 Salamah, FE AMIN Allah  

Who are you talking about?

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On 4/7/2018 at 12:26 AM, 2Timeless said:

Salam,

I know that the headscarf and (female) hijab in general is important in terms of maintaining that boundary and keeping us out of otherwise compromising situations. But as we all know, Seyeda Zainab and Lady Fatima-Al-Zahra had perfect hijab which consisted of covering up completely, wearing abayahs etc. For me, and many other hijabi women, covering up to that extent is very very hard and impractical in our day-to-day lives especially if you use public transport regularly and spend a lot of time out-and- about. I try to have good hijab both in terms of clothing and the way I carry myself, but I still think that my hijab is not good enough. Don't get me wrong, I dress modestly, and don't wear figure hugging clothing but no matter what, my hijab is nothing in comparison to that of ahl-al-bayt. Is hijab such an important factor in Islam that if I don't have perfect hijab (i.e similar to ahl-al-bayt hijab) I'll be punished? 

Also, for those who may not dress as modestly but carry themselves with respect and dignity, does that also mean their Iman and practice of Islam is useless? Or does that reduce the credibility of their devotion to Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى in any way? 

Thanks in advance 

I agree the traditional Arabic black cloth hijab has different connotations in the west. Its not practical e.g. when doing certain jobs such as cooking or customer service etc. We have to move with the times. However I have heard talks on how the Qur'an describes the traditional Arabic black cloth burka. If that is true then maybe we have to try and integrate more in society to make it more acceptable and break those barriers of perceptions people have of the burka in the west. I am a little confused on the subject. However I certainly would want my wife to wear a burka. I lean more towards a modern burka than a traditional one for the same reasons of fitting in society,

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@ali_fatheroforphans @Sumerian, we'll leave it to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) to judge on the actions, demeanour, self respect (or lack thereof) and maturity of ourselves and the people we interact with. 

May Allah bless us all and grant us all the sanity and peace of mind so we can worship Him wholeheartedly.

 

Edited by 2Timeless

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3 hours ago, Murtaza1 said:

However I certainly would want my wife to wear a burka. I lean more towards a modern burka than a traditional one for the same reasons of fitting in society,

Imo all burkas don't fit in modern western society. Women are barely getting by with simple hijab let a lone a full on burqa.

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3 hours ago, 2Timeless said:

Imo all burkas don't fit in modern western society. Women are barely getting by with simple hijab let a lone a full on burqa.

I know you are right. Even Hollywood actress Lindsey Lohan got racially profiled at the airport because she was wearing a Muslim scarf. In my opinion a modern head scarf would make people make less negative assumptions because its a in between eastern and western style however it still has problems.

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On 1/16/2019 at 6:15 AM, Laayla said:

ns  Once upon a time, one of the sisters, was respectful, but Sub7an'Allah, names were changed and her demeanor as well.  

Alhamd'Allah everything is in writing and saved.  :muslima:  That everyone is responsible for what they write and say, even if 50 years pass by. M3 Salamah, FE AMIN Allah  

Sellam.

 I’m not exactly sure who you are referring to, neither does it concern me to know but I’m curious to know what the point or benefit of your bringing up the change of demeanour of another person besides yourself. 

Imam Ali (عليه السلام) taught us to “judge ourselves before we can judge others” and you need to understand that this does not just centre around one judgement, so you might respond to me and say “well sister I have observed and judged myself in the case of “change of demeanor” and I have not changed. Imam Ali (عليه السلام) is not subjecting this statement to just one specific judgement but to all. 

If the sister yet was “once upon a time” a respected one then I’m sure she still is. And this goes out to all who have “changed their demeanor”.

of course, depending on their words and their actions, we cannot alone trust the “written and saved”. That’s is wrong and if it were right then I’m sure many miscarriage of justice would have taken place in the court and the law system would have failed completely. Even when actions are considered and observed and portrays a “change of demeanor”, sometimes a miscarriage of justice also takes place. My point is, that we cannot ever judge someone, especially in just “writing” and online. You as a human yourself could never come to the concept of judgement when you alone know that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is the all hearing and all seeing and He knows what is hidden in our hearts. Let us assume that you’re right and the sister did change in whatever way you mean, that does not lessen her respect And if it did we cannot judge nonetheless. We are humans and we make mistakes intentional and unintentional. Just like the respected sister “changed her demeanor” then I’m sure it’s only for her best. And I’m sure her respect and dignity is still within its place regardless of what was written and saved. 

Your words too can be used against you, I do remember you telling me and I quote “ that you may not always like what others will say” and that everyone has their own opinions. 

That sister, whoever she may be, had or has her own respected views. Even if you are right in what you say and whatever the sister said was considered wrong or is disliked then it’s best for us to advice as the Prophet saws taught us to rather than comment. 

We should always and I’m not subjecting this to “you should always” because I’m sure a lot of us here need to remind ourselves. We should always remember to  say good rather than say something that provides no benefit to yourself or to others. :) 

even if you’re going to respond back and say “ I was just trying to prove or make a point”. Still doesn’t matter. You always aim to say something that benefits yourself and others and if not then best not to say anything at all.

@2timeless tatlim benim in terms of your thread, the western society doesn’t demand a safe place for us to dress the way the women of Ahlul Bayt did however it is best for us to dress modestly the best way we can. Either a simple abaya or long skirt and cardigans etc. simplicity at its best.

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7 hours ago, Murtaza1 said:

However I have heard talks on how the Qur'an describes the traditional Arabic black cloth burka.

Salam Qur'an only describes principles of costume dress code but doesn't promote any  type of cloth but because these type of clothes came from Isalmic  countries such as KSa people take it as equal to Islam that a Muslim must wear clothes like Saudis but it's not true .

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On 1/16/2019 at 5:00 AM, Ibn al-Hussain said:

Yes, the theological belief of the Shi'a argues that Prophet could not have done so, and he could not have committed any minor sins before his Prophethood either - this is also backed up by certain traditions. They will extend this argument to Imam Ali (a) as well 

But I am not sure why we would need to extend this to the idea of clothing.

Once the verse was revealed asking them to cover up more, such as their chest area, and perhaps their necks, then it is to be expected that Fatima (s) just like the other women such as the wives of the Prophet (p) would have all covered up in a similar fashion.

My approach had been to take alcohol as an example and then to extend the principle of prior knowledge+prior adherence to ALL other aspects of life, including clothing. So Fatima (s) would not have required the revelation of the verse in order to abide by it. 

I'm curious as to why that principle cannot be extended to other aspects of life.

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2 hours ago, Haji 2003 said:

My approach had been to take alcohol as an example and then to extend the principle of prior knowledge+prior adherence to ALL other aspects of life, including clothing. So Fatima (s) would not have required the revelation of the verse in order to abide by it. 

I'm curious as to why that principle cannot be extended to other aspects of life.

You have to realize, this principle and its application are rooted in the discussion of infallibility, specifically infallibility that concerns the Prophets and the Imams whose Wilayah and obedience is understood to be taken for granted. The discussion on Fatima's (a) infallibility is not rooted in the same theological context so some of these arguments will not apply to her at all. 

In addition, this is not a universal principle to begin with, for you to then extend it every other matter. It is a theological principle specifically restricted for things that were (later through Prophetic legislation or always, even during the time of Jahiliyyah) considered major sins or detestable acts by society. So for example, certain types of adulterous marriage in the Jahiliyyah period were not abnormal and were a recognized institution, but the Prophet - even before his Prophethood and before actually out-lawing such a marriage - would not have committed such an act. As for minor sins, as long as it was not a minor sin which would result in the belittlement or embarrassment of the Prophets or the Imams, then the Shia theologians did not have a rational problem with that (although Shia theologians will make an exception to Prophet Muhammad even on this specific scenario, but they do not apply this exception to the Imams). As you can see, their main concern was that it should not jeopardize their role as a future leader in society, for people to hold it against them.

Not wearing the hijab is excluded from this because, believe it or not, it is not considered a major sin as per definition of the scholars and it is not a minor sin that results in later belittlement or embarrassment, nor does Fatima (s) have the same role of a Prophet or the Imams for the aforementioned principle to apply to her to begin with. The aforementioned arguments are rational; whereas there is no rational argument to establish the infallibility of Fatima (s). You have to resort to religious text and its parameters & extent have to be defined by the text (Qur'an and Hadith).

Wasalam

Edited by Ibn al-Hussain

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 Bismehe Ta3ala 

Wa Alikum Assalam sister Ruqaya 

Insh'Allah you are well and in good health.  

It would be helpful for you to read the three pages first to know some background information.   

Your continued response of telling me to stay silent is unwarranted.  

I bump older topics, to supplement topics currently being discussed, in this case it was for guest maryam.  Turns out it was a bot, and it did its job to cause ruckus and then flees.  

I'm more than happy to discuss Islamic topics with you.   We might not see eye to eye, but Insh'Allah if the goal is to seek closeness to Allah then our discussions should turn fruitful and beneficial.  What are you seeking sister?

M3 Salamah, Fe Amin Allah 

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8 hours ago, Laayla said:

 Bismehe Ta3ala 

Wa Alikum Assalam sister Ruqaya 

Insh'Allah you are well and in good health.  

It would be helpful for you to read the three pages first to know some background information.   

Your continued response of telling me to stay silent is unwarranted.  

I bump older topics, to supplement topics currently being discussed, in this case it was for guest maryam.  Turns out it was a bot, and it did its job to cause ruckus and then flees.  

I'm more than happy to discuss Islamic topics with you.   We might not see eye to eye, but Insh'Allah if the goal is to seek closeness to Allah then our discussions should turn fruitful and beneficial.  What are you seeking sister?

M3 Salamah, Fe Amin Allah 

I have all the background information I need. That in itself does not contradict any of what I have said.

I am not telling you to stay silent... why is it that you are so adamant that I am silencing you? Hmm

anyhow, I am merely advising you as a sister that you shouldn’t say anything that provides no benefit. You either take my advice or you leave it, that of course is up to you. 

But as long as I am here, I will do my role as your beloved sister and with the most utmost respect to help out in any way.

have a blessed day.

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^^^

What are you seeking sister Ruqaya?  Laughing doesn't answer the question. :verryhappy:

Sincerity and mockery are two different things.  I'm not naive.

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15 minutes ago, Laayla said:

^^^

What are you seeking sister Ruqaya?  Laughing doesn't answer the question. :verryhappy:

Sincerity and mockery are two different things.  I'm not naive.

I’m seeking for you to figuring it out to what I’m seeking. Come on, it’s not that hard sister. Put a little initiative. 

I’ve clearly told you to stop commenting useless statements that provide no benefit not to yourself and most certainly not to others. Take it or leave it

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20 minutes ago, Laayla said:

^^^

What are you seeking sister Ruqaya?  Laughing doesn't answer the question. :verryhappy:

Sincerity and mockery are two different things.  I'm not naive.

Btw, there’s something called tagging on here. You just click on the @ sign and then enter a name. It helps notify the other person.... unless you don’t want them to reply back that is?

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^^^

Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) give you sister according to your intentions, I say this from my heart and not mere words. :verryhappy:

Unfortunately, you are not being honest in your approach. :confused: Not interested in tit for tat, therefore I will no longer respond to your posts on this thread.  :censored:

FWIW, sincerity is felt and genuine, not mocking and name calling.

Alhamd'Allah for prosperity and adversity.   :muslima:

الحمد لله على سراء وضراء

Wa salmu 3likum wa rahmatul Allah 

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8 hours ago, Laayla said:

^^^

Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) give you sister according to your intentions, I say this from my heart and not mere words. :verryhappy:

Unfortunately, you are not being honest in your approach. :confused: Not interested in tit for tat, therefore I will no longer respond to your posts on this thread.  :censored:

FWIW, sincerity is felt and genuine, not mocking and name calling.

Alhamd'Allah for prosperity and adversity.   :muslima:

الحمد لله على سراء وضراء

Wa salmu 3likum wa rahmatul Allah 

I was being completely honest and I’m curious to know as to why you think otherwise. 

Why should I be bothered to advise. It doesn’t benefit me as much as it should to you.

I hadn’t said anything wrong. Just be careful when you say certain statements, as I’ve said before, make sure it provides a benefit to yourself and to others otherwise it’s best not to say anything. 

I wasn’t saying it to mock you at all, but you seem to think I’m silencing you. 

Anyhow, Allah guide us all.

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On 1/17/2019 at 8:39 PM, Ibn al-Hussain said:

Not wearing the hijab is excluded from this because, believe it or not, it is not considered a major sin as per definition of the scholars and it is not a minor sin that results in later belittlement or embarrassment, nor does Fatima (s) have the same role of a Prophet or the Imams for the aforementioned principle to apply to her to begin with. The aforementioned arguments are rational; whereas there is no rational argument to establish the infallibility of Fatima (s). You have to resort to religious text and its parameters & extent have to be defined by the text (Qur'an and Hadith).

Wasalam

Interesting.

From the top of my head, the only way to prove the infallibility of Fatima (s) is with Ayat tatheer/Hadith al-Kisa.

Or are there other texts which can be used to establish her infallibility? 

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@Ibn al-Hussain

I would have to question the legitimacy of that

since women are not allowed to pray in from of strange men. Their prayers would become void

And you know for a fact the noble lady(SA) would never break any rule. You know she would not be caught praying In front of strange men and you know no Imams or the Rasool(SAAWS) would allow that either

I find most of this suspect at best 

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25 minutes ago, Ralvi said:

I would have to question the legitimacy of that

since women are not allowed to pray in from of strange men. Their prayers would become void

Hajj? In the shrines of Masoomeen(عليه السلام)? 

It's preferable that a woman prays where is not seen by Namahram men, but praying where one can be seen by men does not make the salat void. 

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