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In the Name of God بسم الله
Aflower

Double Standards

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Apparently it is OK for men to point out/discuss/debate what is inappropriate clothing for women (e.g. too tight; not wearing a scarf, too much makeup, etc,). A whole army of keyboard warriors will gather within seconds to bash us women folk. If I remember correctly, there was an entire post on this forum regarding 'if men would marry a woman who doesn't wear a head scarf'. There were lots of male contributors then. But if a woman points out that a mans clothing is inappropriate or attempts to discuss what is appropriate clothing for men, then she is shamed and silenced! Apparently Nahi Anil Munkar doesn't apply when women point out the same things to men. What double standards we have in our society even in today's day and age. Tears!

Edited by Aflower

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12 minutes ago, Aflower said:

Apparently it is OK for men to point out/discuss/debate what is inappropriate clothing for women (e.g. too tight; not wearing a scarf, too much makeup, etc,). A whole army of keyboard warriors will gather within seconds to bash us women folk. If I remember correctly, there was an entire post on this forum regarding 'if men would marry a woman who doesn't wear a head scarf'. There were lots of male contributors then. But if a woman points out that a mans clothing is inappropriate or attempts to discuss what is appropriate clothing for men, then she is shamed and silenced! Apparently Nahi Anil Munkar doesn't apply when women point out the same things to men. What double standards we have in our society even in today's day and age. Tears!

You will find several of us (definitely me) who don't try to rule women and realize that a woman's dressing is between her and Allah.

With regards to men dressing vis-a-vis the Ammar topic, is he breaking any rule of sharia?

A woman not wearing head-scarf is oing against sharia, Ammar wearing tight jeans is not...it is not a double standard, just a fact.

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6 minutes ago, Aflower said:

Apparently it is OK for men to point out/discuss/debate what is inappropriate clothing for women (e.g. too tight; not wearing a scarf, too much makeup, etc,). A whole army of keyboard warriors will gather within seconds to bash us women folk.  But if a woman points out that a mans clothing is inappropriate or what is appropriate clothing for men, then she is shamed and silenced! Apparently Nahi Anil Munkar doesn't apply when women point out the same things to men. What double standards we have in our society even in today's day and age. Tears!

I think your right.

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@Khadim uz Zahra

The points you raise are unfair. I specifically clarified within the post, and I quote:

"FOR THE RECORD this post IS NOT ABOUT GHEEBAT but about 2 things:

1) Should religious scholars lead by example - especially when they are in a place of influence such as on the media.? What they do in their down time/personal time is of course their choice.

2) There are so many rulings about women dressing modestly; does the same not apply to men?"

Hence, I made it abundantly clear that whilst I'd used Nakshwani as a reference point, the topic to be discussed was in red. I was not BY ANY MEANS targetting Nakshwani or intending for the post to be about Nakshwani.

I personally sent an email to the mods requesting if they could change my post heading to reflect this but I didn't get a response (I'd gone past the edit time permitted when I realised this). 

Also, Nitidium has made some very inappropriate comments in his last post that do not even relate to the topic at all. It was a red herring post that de-railed what was otherwise a very sensible and calm discussion.  

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13 hours ago, Aflower said:

@Khadim uz Zahra

The points you raise are unfair. I specifically clarified within the post, and I quote:

"FOR THE RECORD this post IS NOT ABOUT GHEEBAT but about 2 things:

1) Should religious scholars lead by example - especially when they are in a place of influence such as on the media.? What they do in their down time/personal time is of course their choice.

2) There are so many rulings about women dressing modestly; does the same not apply to men?"

Hence, I made it abundantly clear that whilst I'd used Nakshwani as a reference point, the topic to be discussed was in red. I was not BY ANY MEANS targetting Nakshwani or intending for the post to be about Nakshwani.

I personally sent an email to the mods requesting if they could change my post heading to reflect this but I didn't get a response (I'd gone past the edit time permitted when I realised this). 

Also, Nitidium has made some very inappropriate comments in his last post that do not even relate to the topic at all. It was a red herring post that de-railed what was otherwise a very sensible and calm discussion.  

Again, as for the 2 questions you've posed, go ahead and discuss them all you want. However, when you say the thread was not specifically targeted at him, you do have to consider your thread was titled after him. The only example you gave was of him. Even if you asked a mod to change the title - and, again, not all of us are online all the time or able to get to each request all the time - and made the above distinction halfway down the page, I would be surprised if people didn't make the thread about him, given he is the only person mentioned in your examples.

So, please, go ahead and make a new thread asking your questions, but just try and refrain from singling out specific individuals unless it's something really significant (like the Tawhidi thread).

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36 minutes ago, ShiaMan14 said:

You will find several of us (definitely me) who don't try to rule women and realize that a woman's dressing is between her and Allah.

With regards to men dressing vis-a-vis the Ammar topic, is he breaking any rule of sharia?

A woman not wearing head-scarf is oing against sharia, Ammar wearing tight jeans is not...it is not a double standard, just a fact.

@ShiaMan14Brother, if you look back at the post I later clarified that the post was supposed to be about the subject highlighted in red.

I am a very blase and upfront woman. If I have something to say, I generally don't mince my words. However, I even clarified that the subject was suggested to me by my friend (she is currently wahabi and thinking about converting to shiasm). I had advised my friend to watch some of Nakshwani's videos to educate herself and she is the one who brought this subject to my attention as apparently wahabi male muslims have a rather strict dress code.  Frankly, the topic had never occurred to me before and I've never heard it being discussed before either. It was upon her specific request that I posted the topic.

Sadly, Nitidium lowered the tone of the entire post by discussing something completely irrelevant and totally off topic!

Edited by Aflower

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3 minutes ago, Khadim uz Zahra said:

Again, as for the 2 questions you've posed, go ahead and discuss them all you want. However, when you say the thread was not specifically targeted at him, you do have to consider your thread was titled after him. The only example you gave was of him. Even if you asked a mod to change the title - and, again, not all of us are online all the time or able to get to each request all the time - and made the above distinction halfway down the page, I would be surprised if people didn't make the thread about him, given he is the only person mentioned in your examples.

So, please, go ahead and make a new thread asking your questions, but just try and refrain from singling out specific individuals unless it's something really significant (like the Tawhidi thread).

@Khadim uz Zahra

Thank you for your response. I am kinda sad right now to be honest because a certain person has distorted and dirtied the waters by going off topic. Of course I can see things from your perspective too. Sadly, Nakshwani  was the only universally recognised person that I could think of at the time. Thank you for the clarification.

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:) I just think this really is an important issue to be discussed because double standards are something we suffer everyday, especially if you're living in a western society. Also, i don't think alot of people even recognise this, but double standards affect both men and women, just in different ways.

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1 hour ago, Aflower said:

@ShiaMan14Brother, if you look back at the post I later clarified that the post was supposed to be about the subject highlighted in red.

I am a very blase and upfront woman. If I have something to say, I generally don't mince my words. However, I even clarified that the subject was suggested to me by my friend (she is currently wahabi and thinking about converting to shiasm). I had advised my friend to watch some of Nakshwani's videos to educate herself and she is the one who brought this subject to my attention as apparently wahabi male muslims have a rather strict dress code.  Frankly, the topic had never occurred to me before and I've never heard it being discussed before either. It was upon her specific request that I posted the topic.

Sadly, Nitidium lowered the tone of the entire post by discussing something completely irrelevant and totally off topic!

Sister,

Nothing wrong with being blase and upfront.

You can't say there is a double standard because the islamic dress codes is different for men and women.

If your wahabi friend is thinking of converting to shiaism, then Nakshwani's clothing are irrelevant unless that is what is stopping her from converting. He has a simple reason for not wearing the amamah - he wants to be more approachable. Lots of youth look up to him because he shows them it is possible to be religious and live a happy,  successful secular life. In a time when the youth are turning away from religion en masse, he is a welcome change that displays the mixture of religion and secular life. The downside is that he gets reprimanded by the religious zealots for being too modern and then gets reprimanded by the reformists for being too religious.

Back to the topic - you can't say there are double standards because the Islamic dress code for men and women are different. What is wrong is applying the same standard to both when clearly they are different. The actual issue is not a double standard when it comes to dressing but man inherent nature to want to control woman.

Lastly in the interest of being blase and upfront, your friend should be concerned about the usul-e-deen rather than someone's dress code. I can assure you that Nakshwani's dress code is more acceptable and approachable for non-Muslims than a wahabi scholar's (shorts pants, long unkept beard, huge turban, etc).

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2 hours ago, Aflower said:

But if a woman points out that a mans clothing is inappropriate or attempts to discuss what is appropriate clothing for men, then she is shamed and silenced!

I have not seen this happen on this forum before.

Either way its good that brothers and sisters remind each other of modest clothing and modesty in general.

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13 hours ago, Aflower said:

@ShiaMan14

Sadly, Nitidium lowered the tone of the entire post by discussing something completely irrelevant and totally off topic!

I will repeat the same things I said in my PM since I saw this thread after replying there.

The title of your thread was 'nakshwani' , the opening post discussed nakshwani 's looks in detail so you saying it later that it isn't about nakshwani doesn't change much.

I found it very distasteful that a woman should discuss a namehram's man's looks. We are asked to lower our gaze, aren't we? If nakshwani's dresses inappropriately then openly discussing namehram men's looks isn't very appropriate either. I am not sure if discussing him here is going to make him change his dress sense but it will surely go down in our records as sins. 

How would it look if there was a thread on SC which goes like 'my married friend(a brother) noticed that lecturer KhanumXYZ  has a more tan complexion now and and has started wearing brighter clothes.He thinks Khanum had a nose job too'?

As far as you saying that men have the liberty to 'bash' a woman over her hijab while women can't do the same, go over Shiachat you will find threads over men wearing skinny clothes started by brothers and read the comments there.

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@Nitidum

Do you not have anything more value adding to do with your time than to drag out and resurrect a matter that has already been settled by the mods? What a shame! Normally I wouldn't respond to a person like you but you are blatantly misquoting me and that I will not accept!

55 minutes ago, Nitidum said:

he title of your thread was 'nakshwani' , the opening post discussed nakshwani 's looks in detail so you saying it later that it isn't about nakshwani doesn't change much.

I have already explained this above! May be in the future you should consider reading the older comments before you jump the gun! You have done that twice now. Once on this thread and also on the Nakshwani thread. I will not waste my time by repeating myself for your benefit. For the record, in reality it does change things. People make edits, amendments and changes in real life all the time. There is no harm in that. That is clearly something you need to learn! 

55 minutes ago, Nitidum said:

I found it very distasteful that a woman should discuss a namehram's man's looks. We are asked to lower our gaze, aren't we? If nakshwani's dresses inappropriately then openly discussing namehram men's looks isn't very appropriate either. I am not sure if discussing him here is going to make him change his dress sense but it will surely go down in our records as sins. 

You find it distasteful that women are discussing a namehrams looks? Firstly, he is no James Bond with all due respect, so it's not like we were discussing him in an inappropriate sense. I don't know how your mind works but ours doesn't work that way. When you watch hours of majlises of one particular person and the camera predominently focuses on his face, common sense dictates that a person with normal vision would naturally spot the difference in his appearance. It was just an observation which any layman would notice. I know my friend can't be the only person to have spotted it so stop trying to shame her. 

BTW what part of the world do you live in? Lower your gaze when watching an online lecture? :hahaha: Here in the UK all the mosques have a screen showing the maulana reciting the lecture from the men's section. If we were supposed to lower our gaze when watching a lecture as you claim, then they wouldn't show us visuals of the lecturer there.  

Also, you are misquoting me. I never said that Nakshwani "dresses inappropriately" at any point. I said in the Nakshwani thread, and I quote:

"I don't think there is anything the wrong with his clothes as they stand. As long as he is comfortable that is the key thing"

Please don't misquote me!

Interestingly, it was actually  Ashvazdanghe who commented, and I quote:

"Salam but his outer appearance cause distraction , I prefer his Audios"

and

"Salam his dress code ruins affection of his speeches ,when for 1 hour I just see him with odd outer, I cant concentrate on his speech from middle of it,this is also for non shias specially  anti shias causes just joking about him and they dont listen to his lectures carefully."

But of course, a person like you would probably not say anything to a man. A woman is always an easy target isn't she?

In conclusion, congratulations! You've had your two minutes of fame. Hope you feel happy, more empowered and better for continuing your nonsensical rant which your started in your personal message to me and continued on the forum. I won't entertain your non sense anymore. Au revoir. 

P.S. I've just noticed that you've sent me yet another Personal Message. I have already told you in my previous PM that I won't rise to your bait by responding to your PMs so please understand that by repeatedly sending me PMs you won't get a response from me - I'll just report you to the mods!

Edited by Aflower

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@Aflower I am not the one dragging anything here. You are one who sent me the PM after mods had closed the thread. You are the one who started a new thread after the earlier thread was closed by mods and stated how I had ruined your thread, so how am I the one dragging anything? I am not jumping any guns , the first line of my post said that I browsed the forum after replying to your PM. I didn't bother to read the rest of your post.

Calm down.

Mods, maybe this needs to be closed too but ask the OP first in case she has another melt down.

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