Double Standards

[Aflower 270]

Apparently it is OK for men to point out/discuss/debate what is inappropriate clothing for women (e.g. too tight; not wearing a scarf, too much makeup, etc,). A whole army of keyboard warriors will gather within seconds to bash us women folk. If I remember correctly, there was an entire post on this forum regarding 'if men would marry a woman who doesn't wear a head scarf'. There were lots of male contributors then. But if a woman points out that a mans clothing is inappropriate or attempts to discuss what is appropriate clothing for men, then she is shamed and silenced! Apparently Nahi Anil Munkar doesn't apply when women point out the same things to men. What double standards we have in our society even in today's day and age. Tears!

Edited April 5 by Aflower

[ShiaMan14 5,888]

12 minutes ago, Aflower said:

Apparently it is OK for men to point out/discuss/debate what is inappropriate clothing for women (e.g. too tight; not wearing a scarf, too much makeup, etc,). A whole army of keyboard warriors will gather within seconds to bash us women folk. If I remember correctly, there was an entire post on this forum regarding 'if men would marry a woman who doesn't wear a head scarf'. There were lots of male contributors then. But if a woman points out that a mans clothing is inappropriate or attempts to discuss what is appropriate clothing for men, then she is shamed and silenced! Apparently Nahi Anil Munkar doesn't apply when women point out the same things to men. What double standards we have in our society even in today's day and age. Tears!

You will find several of us (definitely me) who don't try to rule women and realize that a woman's dressing is between her and Allah.

With regards to men dressing vis-a-vis the Ammar topic, is he breaking any rule of sharia?

A woman not wearing head-scarf is oing against sharia, Ammar wearing tight jeans is not...it is not a double standard, just a fact.

[iraqi_shia 624]

6 minutes ago, Aflower said:

Apparently it is OK for men to point out/discuss/debate what is inappropriate clothing for women (e.g. too tight; not wearing a scarf, too much makeup, etc,). A whole army of keyboard warriors will gather within seconds to bash us women folk.  But if a woman points out that a mans clothing is inappropriate or what is appropriate clothing for men, then she is shamed and silenced! Apparently Nahi Anil Munkar doesn't apply when women point out the same things to men. What double standards we have in our society even in today's day and age. Tears!

I think your right.

[Khadim uz Zahra 3,023]

If you'd like to discuss men's clothing in general, go for it. Think V-necks are too 'racy'? Fire away!

Your other thread was closed because it specifically targeted one individual, and we did allow it to remain for a while. Ultimately, threads that target one individual tend to devolve into shouting contests, and often end up in some people making useful comments and other flinging mud at the person in question. Clothing is also not a topic that is so important or decisive that we'd feel there was a need to leave the thread open, despite the risk of, say, ghibah. Even if the criticisms against the person in question were valid, it would be hard to make a case that he was committing a grave sin or, more importantly, misguiding masses into committing major sins; he's not running around naked. The individual nature of your query, alongside with the relatively trivial aspects of any alleged offences, was why your other thread was closed.

I will, ultimately say that perhaps because hijab is so iconic and well-defined, people tend to judge women more harshly and more often because the criteria is so specific and so vivid in the public imagination. Dress codes for men do also exist, of course, but they're not as well-defined, or associated with a specific type of garment, which does lead to them getting away with things sometimes. That's definitely an unfortunate double standard, and one which should perhaps be looked into.

[Aflower 270]

@Khadim uz Zahra

The points you raise are unfair. I specifically clarified within the post, and I quote:

"FOR THE RECORD this post IS NOT ABOUT GHEEBAT but about 2 things:

1) Should religious scholars lead by example - especially when they are in a place of influence such as on the media.? What they do in their down time/personal time is of course their choice.

2) There are so many rulings about women dressing modestly; does the same not apply to men?"

Hence, I made it abundantly clear that whilst I'd used Nakshwani as a reference point, the topic to be discussed was in red. I was not BY ANY MEANS targetting Nakshwani or intending for the post to be about Nakshwani.

I personally sent an email to the mods requesting if they could change my post heading to reflect this but I didn't get a response (I'd gone past the edit time permitted when I realised this). 

Also, Nitidium has made some very inappropriate comments in his last post that do not even relate to the topic at all. It was a red herring post that de-railed what was otherwise a very sensible and calm discussion.  

[Khadim uz Zahra 3,023]

13 hours ago, Aflower said:

@Khadim uz Zahra

The points you raise are unfair. I specifically clarified within the post, and I quote:

"FOR THE RECORD this post IS NOT ABOUT GHEEBAT but about 2 things:

1) Should religious scholars lead by example - especially when they are in a place of influence such as on the media.? What they do in their down time/personal time is of course their choice.

2) There are so many rulings about women dressing modestly; does the same not apply to men?"

Hence, I made it abundantly clear that whilst I'd used Nakshwani as a reference point, the topic to be discussed was in red. I was not BY ANY MEANS targetting Nakshwani or intending for the post to be about Nakshwani.

I personally sent an email to the mods requesting if they could change my post heading to reflect this but I didn't get a response (I'd gone past the edit time permitted when I realised this). 

Also, Nitidium has made some very inappropriate comments in his last post that do not even relate to the topic at all. It was a red herring post that de-railed what was otherwise a very sensible and calm discussion.  

Again, as for the 2 questions you've posed, go ahead and discuss them all you want. However, when you say the thread was not specifically targeted at him, you do have to consider your thread was titled after him. The only example you gave was of him. Even if you asked a mod to change the title - and, again, not all of us are online all the time or able to get to each request all the time - and made the above distinction halfway down the page, I would be surprised if people didn't make the thread about him, given he is the only person mentioned in your examples.

So, please, go ahead and make a new thread asking your questions, but just try and refrain from singling out specific individuals unless it's something really significant (like the Tawhidi thread).

[Aflower 270]

36 minutes ago, ShiaMan14 said:

You will find several of us (definitely me) who don't try to rule women and realize that a woman's dressing is between her and Allah.

With regards to men dressing vis-a-vis the Ammar topic, is he breaking any rule of sharia?

A woman not wearing head-scarf is oing against sharia, Ammar wearing tight jeans is not...it is not a double standard, just a fact.

@ShiaMan14Brother, if you look back at the post I later clarified that the post was supposed to be about the subject highlighted in red.

I am a very blase and upfront woman. If I have something to say, I generally don't mince my words. However, I even clarified that the subject was suggested to me by my friend (she is currently wahabi and thinking about converting to shiasm). I had advised my friend to watch some of Nakshwani's videos to educate herself and she is the one who brought this subject to my attention as apparently wahabi male muslims have a rather strict dress code.  Frankly, the topic had never occurred to me before and I've never heard it being discussed before either. It was upon her specific request that I posted the topic.

Sadly, Nitidium lowered the tone of the entire post by discussing something completely irrelevant and totally off topic!

Edited April 5 by Aflower

[Aflower 270]

3 minutes ago, Khadim uz Zahra said:

Again, as for the 2 questions you've posed, go ahead and discuss them all you want. However, when you say the thread was not specifically targeted at him, you do have to consider your thread was titled after him. The only example you gave was of him. Even if you asked a mod to change the title - and, again, not all of us are online all the time or able to get to each request all the time - and made the above distinction halfway down the page, I would be surprised if people didn't make the thread about him, given he is the only person mentioned in your examples.

So, please, go ahead and make a new thread asking your questions, but just try and refrain from singling out specific individuals unless it's something really significant (like the Tawhidi thread).

@Khadim uz Zahra

Thank you for your response. I am kinda sad right now to be honest because a certain person has distorted and dirtied the waters by going off topic. Of course I can see things from your perspective too. Sadly, Nakshwani  was the only universally recognised person that I could think of at the time. Thank you for the clarification.

[Aflower 270]

Thank you for your support @Amira00 @Ali Hussain @iraqi_shia It means the world to me. 

[2Timeless 802]

I just think this really is an important issue to be discussed because double standards are something we suffer everyday, especially if you're living in a western society. Also, i don't think alot of people even recognise this, but double standards affect both men and women, just in different ways.

[ShiaMan14 5,888]

1 hour ago, Aflower said:

@ShiaMan14Brother, if you look back at the post I later clarified that the post was supposed to be about the subject highlighted in red.

I am a very blase and upfront woman. If I have something to say, I generally don't mince my words. However, I even clarified that the subject was suggested to me by my friend (she is currently wahabi and thinking about converting to shiasm). I had advised my friend to watch some of Nakshwani's videos to educate herself and she is the one who brought this subject to my attention as apparently wahabi male muslims have a rather strict dress code.  Frankly, the topic had never occurred to me before and I've never heard it being discussed before either. It was upon her specific request that I posted the topic.

Sadly, Nitidium lowered the tone of the entire post by discussing something completely irrelevant and totally off topic!

Sister,

Nothing wrong with being blase and upfront.

You can't say there is a double standard because the islamic dress codes is different for men and women.

If your wahabi friend is thinking of converting to shiaism, then Nakshwani's clothing are irrelevant unless that is what is stopping her from converting. He has a simple reason for not wearing the amamah - he wants to be more approachable. Lots of youth look up to him because he shows them it is possible to be religious and live a happy,  successful secular life. In a time when the youth are turning away from religion en masse, he is a welcome change that displays the mixture of religion and secular life. The downside is that he gets reprimanded by the religious zealots for being too modern and then gets reprimanded by the reformists for being too religious.

Back to the topic - you can't say there are double standards because the Islamic dress code for men and women are different. What is wrong is applying the same standard to both when clearly they are different. The actual issue is not a double standard when it comes to dressing but man inherent nature to want to control woman.

Lastly in the interest of being blase and upfront, your friend should be concerned about the usul-e-deen rather than someone's dress code. I can assure you that Nakshwani's dress code is more acceptable and approachable for non-Muslims than a wahabi scholar's (shorts pants, long unkept beard, huge turban, etc).

[IbnSina 4,925]

2 hours ago, Aflower said:

But if a woman points out that a mans clothing is inappropriate or attempts to discuss what is appropriate clothing for men, then she is shamed and silenced!

I have not seen this happen on this forum before.

Either way its good that brothers and sisters remind each other of modest clothing and modesty in general.

[Nitidum 45]

13 hours ago, Aflower said:

@ShiaMan14

Sadly, Nitidium lowered the tone of the entire post by discussing something completely irrelevant and totally off topic!

I will repeat the same things I said in my PM since I saw this thread after replying there.

The title of your thread was 'nakshwani' , the opening post discussed nakshwani 's looks in detail so you saying it later that it isn't about nakshwani doesn't change much.

I found it very distasteful that a woman should discuss a namehram's man's looks. We are asked to lower our gaze, aren't we? If nakshwani's dresses inappropriately then openly discussing namehram men's looks isn't very appropriate either. I am not sure if discussing him here is going to make him change his dress sense but it will surely go down in our records as sins. 

How would it look if there was a thread on SC which goes like 'my married friend(a brother) noticed that lecturer KhanumXYZ  has a more tan complexion now and and has started wearing brighter clothes.He thinks Khanum had a nose job too'?

As far as you saying that men have the liberty to 'bash' a woman over her hijab while women can't do the same, go over Shiachat you will find threads over men wearing skinny clothes started by brothers and read the comments there.

[Aflower 270]

@Nitidum

Do you not have anything more value adding to do with your time than to drag out and resurrect a matter that has already been settled by the mods? What a shame! Normally I wouldn't respond to a person like you but you are blatantly misquoting me and that I will not accept!

55 minutes ago, Nitidum said:

he title of your thread was 'nakshwani' , the opening post discussed nakshwani 's looks in detail so you saying it later that it isn't about nakshwani doesn't change much.

I have already explained this above! May be in the future you should consider reading the older comments before you jump the gun! You have done that twice now. Once on this thread and also on the Nakshwani thread. I will not waste my time by repeating myself for your benefit. For the record, in reality it does change things. People make edits, amendments and changes in real life all the time. There is no harm in that. That is clearly something you need to learn! 

55 minutes ago, Nitidum said:

I found it very distasteful that a woman should discuss a namehram's man's looks. We are asked to lower our gaze, aren't we? If nakshwani's dresses inappropriately then openly discussing namehram men's looks isn't very appropriate either. I am not sure if discussing him here is going to make him change his dress sense but it will surely go down in our records as sins. 

You find it distasteful that women are discussing a namehrams looks? Firstly, he is no James Bond with all due respect, so it's not like we were discussing him in an inappropriate sense. I don't know how your mind works but ours doesn't work that way. When you watch hours of majlises of one particular person and the camera predominently focuses on his face, common sense dictates that a person with normal vision would naturally spot the difference in his appearance. It was just an observation which any layman would notice. I know my friend can't be the only person to have spotted it so stop trying to shame her. 

BTW what part of the world do you live in? Lower your gaze when watching an online lecture?  Here in the UK all the mosques have a screen showing the maulana reciting the lecture from the men's section. If we were supposed to lower our gaze when watching a lecture as you claim, then they wouldn't show us visuals of the lecturer there.  

Also, you are misquoting me. I never said that Nakshwani "dresses inappropriately" at any point. I said in the Nakshwani thread, and I quote:

"I don't think there is anything the wrong with his clothes as they stand. As long as he is comfortable that is the key thing"

Please don't misquote me!

Interestingly, it was actually  Ashvazdanghe who commented, and I quote:

"Salam but his outer appearance cause distraction , I prefer his Audios"

and

"Salam his dress code ruins affection of his speeches ,when for 1 hour I just see him with odd outer, I cant concentrate on his speech from middle of it,this is also for non shias specially  anti shias causes just joking about him and they dont listen to his lectures carefully."

But of course, a person like you would probably not say anything to a man. A woman is always an easy target isn't she?

In conclusion, congratulations! You've had your two minutes of fame. Hope you feel happy, more empowered and better for continuing your nonsensical rant which your started in your personal message to me and continued on the forum. I won't entertain your non sense anymore. Au revoir. 

P.S. I've just noticed that you've sent me yet another Personal Message. I have already told you in my previous PM that I won't rise to your bait by responding to your PMs so please understand that by repeatedly sending me PMs you won't get a response from me - I'll just report you to the mods!

Edited April 5 by Aflower

[Nitidum 45]

@Aflower I am not the one dragging anything here. You are one who sent me the PM after mods had closed the thread. You are the one who started a new thread after the earlier thread was closed by mods and stated how I had ruined your thread, so how am I the one dragging anything? I am not jumping any guns , the first line of my post said that I browsed the forum after replying to your PM. I didn't bother to read the rest of your post.

Calm down.

Mods, maybe this needs to be closed too but ask the OP first in case she has another melt down.

[Aflower 270]

@Mods. Yes, I agree with @Nitidum for the first time in my life. This post needs to be closed down please because otherwise we will all be subjected to @Nitidum continued words of wisdom. Sarcasm intended. There is nothing more to add to this thread. 

 

Edited April 5 by Aflower

[ali_fatheroforphans 3,739]

@Aflower I hope you don't think I have double standards after I defended Ammar Nakashwani in the previous thread.

There are a lot of useless hijab threads where the male users bash women and discuss how a woman should dress, and I was clearly against those users (If you ever read those posts). Therefore don't generalize that everyone has double standards, just because your previous thread got locked.

Anyway I think it is inappropriate for you to discuss the outer appearance of Ammar Nakashwani.  I don't think Ammar Nakashwani is going against the Sharia to start with. 

Edited April 5 by ali_fatheroforphans

[Hamodiii 628]

@Aflower

People tend to take what they enjoy for themselves, that is not what Islam is about. That goes for both genders, we tend to forget that women don't work for us, they don't belong to us, they are a gift from Allah, and we have to take care of them, like they were valuable things, not objects, just that they are precious. People say I will be happy if i get whatever I want in Jannah, when people don't realize that Allah already created Jannah on Earth, you just have to believe in him, and trust him with all your heart. Cause one day they will realize when women will fight back. The day you regret showing her a critical, and a hurtful fist, is the day you sit behind the resturang table, thinking of a new wife, still not knowning the value of women.... It is absurd.

Then again... We can have a list where men are attacked more than women, and If we got deeper in the dissucision, I tend to not understand them, cause women have the right, but blindly rush in to complain, when men tend to stay silent knowning that emotions of a man is not acceptable in this soceity. Actually the laws in both ways needs some a hit up, In today society is where a woman needs to collect her own savings, cause she can't trust her husband, and the man can't show emotions to not downgrade himself, It is absurd, and people call this justice. I rather see a trump wall in front of my face, a wall that is easily missed, cause It's always I... Who are you? Why are you even arrogant? What do you think you are? What made you better than her? Or what made you better than him? 

Edited April 5 by Hamodiii

[Aflower 270]

@ali_fatheroforphans

OK, did I say that I personally think that Nakshwani dresses inappropriately? I have not anywhere in the thread said it's my viewpoint have I? I've stated my friends viewpoint. I didn't say that Nakshwani is going against shariah did I? Why are you misquoting me? I have already explained all this above. 

People tend to make sweeping statements when they are posting a topic heading. Clearly the topic is up for discussion. Thank you for your contribution.

I think a lot of people are acting holier than thou at the moment just to make a point for the sake of making a point. Of course if a man says it its one thing.... @Ashvazdanghe said the following in the Nakshwani post:

1 hour ago, Aflower said:

"Salam but his outer appearance cause distraction , I prefer his Audios"

and

"Salam his dress code ruins affection of his speeches ,when for 1 hour I just see him with odd outer, I cant concentrate on his speech from middle of it,this is also for non shias specially  anti shias causes just joking about him and they dont listen to his lectures carefully."

Why didn't you address him? Is he not discussing Nakshwani's clothing? How come not one person is saying anything to him? 

ALSO, FOR THE RECORD AND AT THE EXPENSE OF REPEATING MYSELF - THE PREVIOUS POST WAS NOT INTENDED TO BE ABOUT NAKSHWANI.

@mods - may be the post should be locked? Sadly, it's turned into a rant rather than being an constructive, lucid discussion. 

Edited April 5 by Aflower

[Saajida 14]

I've been waiting for this post. 

There is indeed double standards in terms of hijab. It annoys me so much. First of all, Men shouldn't even be allowed to comment on a sister's dressing since its not his place to talk (i.e. he doesn't wear a head scarf so he doesn't understand the difficulties some ladies face with it so he should just be quiet). Also they say it bothers the so called 'religious men' or puts them in a difficult situation. If the man cares so much about hijab his gaze should be lowered to begin so it wont bother him. plus there are non muslims walking around without hijab too and plenty of skin on display so the men need to focus on preserving their own hijab. If they feel something by seeing a sister's ankles even though everyhing else is covered maybe he is the one who should turn to god for guidance. else he will have a hard time doing every day things. 

On the other hand, If a sister gives advice to another woman that she herself follows there is no problem since they are on the same journey and can relate to the difficulties. However to the men who sit there half naked and gaze at non religious women shamelessly and then tells a sister 'your hair is showing.' Just sit down brother.

[ShiaMan14 5,888]

6 hours ago, Aflower said:

@ali_fatheroforphans

OK, did I say that I personally think that Nakshwani dresses inappropriately? I have not anywhere in the thread said it's my viewpoint have I? I've stated my friends viewpoint. I didn't say that Nakshwani is going against shariah did I? Why are you misquoting me? I have already explained all this above. 

People tend to make sweeping statements when they are posting a topic heading. Clearly the topic is up for discussion. Thank you for your contribution.

I think a lot of people are acting holier than thou at the moment just to make a point for the sake of making a point. Of course if a man says it its one thing.... @Ashvazdanghe said the following in the Nakshwani post:

Why didn't you address him? Is he not discussing Nakshwani's clothing? How come not one person is saying anything to him? 

ALSO, FOR THE RECORD AND AT THE EXPENSE OF REPEATING MYSELF - THE PREVIOUS POST WAS NOT INTENDED TO BE ABOUT NAKSHWANI.

@mods - may be the post should be locked? Sadly, it's turned into a rant rather than being an constructive, lucid discussion. 

I thought I was pretty constructive:

9 hours ago, ShiaMan14 said:

Back to the topic - you can't say there are double standards because the Islamic dress code for men and women are different. What is wrong is applying the same standard to both when clearly they are different. The actual issue is not a double standard when it comes to dressing but man inherent nature to want to control woman.

Lastly in the interest of being blase and upfront, your friend should be concerned about the usul-e-deen rather than someone's dress code. I can assure you that Nakshwani's dress code is more acceptable and approachable for non-Muslims than a wahabi scholar's (shorts pants, long unkept beard, huge turban, etc).

[Aflower 270]

6 hours ago, ShiaMan14 said:

  3 hours ago, ShiaMan14 said:

Back to the topic - you can't say there are double standards because the Islamic dress code for men and women are different. What is wrong is applying the same standard to both when clearly they are different. The actual issue is not a double standard when it comes to dressing but man inherent nature to want to control woman.

Lastly in the interest of being blase and upfront, your friend should be concerned about the usul-e-deen rather than someone's dress code. I can assure you that Nakshwani's dress code is more acceptable and approachable for non-Muslims than a wahabi scholar's (shorts pants, long unkept beard, huge turban, etc).

So, is this how it works? We drag everything out. Ok... here we go again!

Yes, I know that the dress code for men and women are different. Luckily, I'd figured that out a while ago but thanks for the reminder. 

No question is a stupid question when you are learning. She asked me a question - I put it forward on the forum. For the record, she is learning about the usul-e-deen too. I am not going to alienate her by pointing out the obvious am I? Anyway, she may deem that as a subjective matter and argue something else. 

Is there any value in this post of yours brother? Seriously??? I am going to log off and read the Quran now rather than wasting my life on this. But please do continue posting if you wish... I just won't be here to respond.

[ali_fatheroforphans 3,739]

6 hours ago, Aflower said:

Why didn't you address him? Is he not discussing Nakshwani's clothing? How come not one person is saying anything to him? 

I actually didn't pay attention to it - but yeah I don't agree with ashvazdanghe at all.

Anyway, you can always make a point without a reference to a speaker, and Yes I think it is inappropriate to bring Ammar Nakashwani up, because a lot of keyboard warriors do judge him. You even named the thread "Ammar Nakashwani".

You wrote a question in a very smart when you said "my friend said", which suggested to me that you just wanted to not take the blame. The references made by your friends were not appropriate such as "eyebrows done" etc. Then what gives you a free ticket to use Ammar Nakashwani as an example to reinforce a point you wanna make? Can't you just make a general thread?

Also you said "But if a woman points out that a mans clothing is inappropriate or attempts to discuss what is appropriate clothing for men, then she is shamed and silenced!". 

Do you also realize that there was a hijab thread where a lot of male users got criticized for discussing how a woman should dress? 

[Ron_Burgundy 1,840]

On 4/5/2018 at 1:20 PM, Aflower said:

Should religious scholars lead by example - especially when they are in a place of influence such as on the media.? What they do in their down time/personal time is of course their choice.

What is wrong with his dressing man. Share the image of him where you think he dressed inappropriately. Usually moulana dress their clothes imama that white dress. If he wares suit or pants and shirts. I don’t think that’s inappropriate.

Don’t forget he has other jobs as well. He is just not a regular moulana. He has other things going as well. 

In 2014, Nakshawani was included in the list of The 500 Most Influential Muslims (also known as The Muslim 500, an annual publication first published in 2009) in the "Preachers and Spiritual Guides" section.^[5]

University of Cambridge

Nakshavani served as a Visiting Scholar of Islamic Studies and performed advanced research and academic analysis of Shia historic texts.

Hartford Seminary

Nakshawani served as the inaugural chair of the Imam Ali Chair in Shi'a Studies at Harftord Seminary.

Columbia University

In 2016, Columbia University announced that Dr. Nakshawani would serve as a Visiting Scholar.

Harvard University

Dr. Nakshawani is an Associate of the Iran Project at Harvard Kennedy School’s Belfer Center for Science and International Affairs. His focus is on Islamic political as well as conflict and peace building in the Middle East.

from wiki. 

[Islandsandmirrors 2,323]

Double standards are everywhere in the world.