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Mawdudi

LEGACY OF ZAYD IBN ALI (RA)

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Asalaamualaikum brothers and sisters,

I have recently been reading about the amazing Islamic figure, Imam Zayd Ibn Ali (RA). I have to say this is one of the greatest people I have ever read about! I had a few questions to my Shia brothers and sisters. Apart from his uprising against the oppressive and corrupt ummayads and his beautiful character, one of the things that caught my attention about Imam Zayd (RA) is his respect for some for the sahaba. For example Imam Zayd refused to speak ill of Umar ibn Khattab (RA) and Abu Bakr Siddique (RA):

The people of Kufah were now called upon to honour their oaths and fulfill their pledges
.They did gather around Zayd ibn ‘Ali but not to protect him, rather 
to question him about his beliefs (after inciting him to accept their oaths and rise 
up against the rulers):

They  asked:  “What  is  your  view,  may  the  mercy  of  Allah  be  upon  you, 
regarding Abu Bakr and ‘Umar?” 
Zayd ibn ‘Ali answered, “May Allah forgive them. I did not hear anyone of 
the Ahl al-Bayt dissociating from them and I only speak good of them… 
They  ruled  and  displayed  justice  and  enforced  and  practiced  upon  the 
Qur’an and Sunnah.” (Narrated by Tabari and others)

ALLAHUAKBAR, So a serious question I want to ask to the twelver shia is: Are'nt these people that deserted Zayd ibn Ali (RA) the same ones that deserted Imam Husayn (RA)? and isn't this proof (among many more proofs) that we should curse abu bakr and Umar?

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Alaykum asalam, dear brother.

The scholar who has narrated that hadith, at-Tabari, is a sunni. We do not accept hadiths from them in Shia Islam.

The truth of the matter about Abu Bakr and Umar, in fact, is that when the holy prophet (s) died, Imam Ali (a) and his holy family were dealing with his body, cleaning it, burying it, and were too busy with this to deal with other matters. Abu Bakr and Umar were at Saqifa, discussing who should be the ruler of the Muslims after the prophet's (s) death, and quickly came to the conclusion that Abu Bakr should rule. They both knew that Imam Ali (as) was the divinely chosen leader, as the prophet (s) announced this 4 months ago at Ghadir Khumm, which is why they made this decision hastily.

When Imam Ali (as) returned, they refused to give him his rights. Disobeying the imam of your time is a MAJOR sin, that's like today Imam al-Mahdi (aj) asking you to run an errand for him and you responding, "no."

So it doesn't matter how they ruled, what they did, etc. They disobeyed the imam of their time, refused to give him his rights, and that makes them sinners. I doubt any member of the Ahlulbayt (as) approves of them, a reason why the ahlulbayt are not shown speaking bad of them much in the ahadith is probably because they were performing taqiyyah, which is concealing your true faith in life or death matters.

Ya Ali

Edited by Hussaini624

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Believe me brother, I've heard all of the shia arguments already.. and im not convinced.... So your just going to deny all of the good that Umar (RA) and Abu Bakr  (RA) did? Abu Bakr was one of the first converts to Islam, the one who freed Bilal (RA), the one who took a beating at the hands of the Quraysh and when he woke up he's only concern was "how is rasoolullah?", the one who would give all of his wealth in Allah's cause. And Umar ibn kattab was the one who said " ya rasoolullah, I love you more than I love myself", the one who came into Jerusalem pulling a jewish slave ona camel. IRAN is Muslim TODAY because of UMAR! I could go on and on about the virtues and great efforts of the sahaba (RA). 

Also, Shias often quote tabari and bukhari and other Sunni narrators when it favours them! And you reject them when it goes against your theology?! Bit hypocritical no? I can even prove to you using shais sources that the alhulbayt honoured UMAR. Just look at Nahj ul balagha sermon 227.

Finally, if you STILL reject all these proofs, then answer this... what good do you get out of cursing Umar and Abu Bakr?

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1 hour ago, Mawdudi said:

So your just going to deny all of the good that Umar (RA) and Abu Bakr  (RA) did?

:bismillah:

إِنَّ الَّذِينَ ارْتَدُّوا عَلَىٰ أَدْبَارِهِمْ مِنْ بَعْدِ مَا تَبَيَّنَ لَهُمُ الْهُدَى ۙ الشَّيْطَانُ سَوَّلَ لَهُمْ وَأَمْلَىٰ لَهُمْ {25}

ذَٰلِكَ بِأَنَّهُمْ قَالُوا لِلَّذِينَ كَرِهُوا مَا نَزَّلَ اللَّهُ سَنُطِيعُكُمْ فِي بَعْضِ الْأَمْرِ ۖ وَاللَّهُ يَعْلَمُ إِسْرَارَهُمْ {26}

فَكَيْفَ إِذَا تَوَفَّتْهُمُ الْمَلَائِكَةُ يَضْرِبُونَ وُجُوهَهُمْ وَأَدْبَارَهُمْ {27}

ذَٰلِكَ بِأَنَّهُمُ اتَّبَعُوا مَا أَسْخَطَ اللَّهَ وَكَرِهُوا رِضْوَانَهُ فَأَحْبَطَ أَعْمَالَهُمْ {28}

أَمْ حَسِبَ الَّذِينَ فِي قُلُوبِهِمْ مَرَضٌ أَنْ لَنْ يُخْرِجَ اللَّهُ أَضْغَانَهُمْ {29}

وَلَوْ نَشَاءُ لَأَرَيْنَاكَهُمْ فَلَعَرَفْتَهُمْ بِسِيمَاهُمْ ۚ وَلَتَعْرِفَنَّهُمْ فِي لَحْنِ الْقَوْلِ ۚ وَاللَّهُ يَعْلَمُ أَعْمَالَكُمْ {30}

وَلَنَبْلُوَنَّكُمْ حَتَّىٰ نَعْلَمَ الْمُجَاهِدِينَ مِنْكُمْ وَالصَّابِرِينَ وَنَبْلُوَ أَخْبَارَكُمْ {31}

إِنَّ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا وَصَدُّوا عَنْ سَبِيلِ اللَّهِ وَشَاقُّوا الرَّسُولَ مِنْ بَعْدِ مَا تَبَيَّنَ لَهُمُ الْهُدَىٰ لَنْ يَضُرُّوا اللَّهَ شَيْئًا وَسَيُحْبِطُ أَعْمَالَهُمْ {32}

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا أَطِيعُوا اللَّهَ وَأَطِيعُوا الرَّسُولَ وَلَا تُبْطِلُوا أَعْمَالَكُمْ {33}

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4 hours ago, Mawdudi said:

Finally, if you STILL reject all these proofs, then answer this... what good do you get out of cursing Umar and Abu Bakr?

Just imagine. What if we delete first 3 khalifa from history? There will be no shia suni agrument who was right, who was wrong, what to believe and what not to believe. We will save a lot energy of muslims on this topic and mutually both suni and shia will follow Quran and Ahlul Bayth (A.S) what Prophet Muhammad  (P.B.U.H) exactly told us to do. And yes. None a part from Ahlul Bayth (A.S) and Quran can take us to Allah in this world and hereafter. 

Edited by SIAR14

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On 4/1/2018 at 6:58 AM, Mawdudi said:

Finally, if you STILL reject all these proofs, then answer this... what good do you get out of cursing Umar and Abu Bakr

Most of Shias dont curse them only a minority that known as British  Shias (Shirazi cult) do it .

Abubakr & Umar do great works but beside that they made great damage to Islam ,if at first they would obey Imam of their time they could reserve their great good deeds for judgment day but they prefer just this world & ruined their other world.

American Sunnism, British Shi'ism are two blades of the same scissors ...
english.khamenei.ir › news › American-S...

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On 3/31/2018 at 9:52 PM, Mawdudi said:

ALLAHUAKBAR, So a serious question I want to ask to the twelver shia is: Are'nt these people that deserted Zayd ibn Ali (RA) the same ones that deserted Imam Husayn (RA)? and isn't this proof (among many more proofs) that we should curse abu bakr and Umar?

People of Kufa were always vague & unstable in their intentions which even now Iraqis still suffer from this syndrome. 

When ISIS was in Iraq they asked help from Iran but now a minority group among them are trying to betray Iran & Join to KSA.

Also when Imam hussain  (as) was near Kufa Ibn Zyad (la) killed many supporters of Imam Hussain  (as) inside Kufa or imprisoned them so shia lost their power &couldn't do anything 

This was similar abut Zaid (ra) Imam Baqir (as) warned him about people of Kufa but he was serious & one minded which at last people of Kufa betrayed to him.

Zayd b. ʿAlī b. al-Ḥusayn b. ʿAlī b. Abī Ṭālib (Arabic: زید بن علي بن حسین بن علي بن ابي‌طالب) titled as Zayd al-Shahid (Zayd the martyr), is the son of Imam al-Sajjad (a), and was contemporary with Imam al-Baqir (a)and Imam al-Sadiq (a)

The time of his birth and martyrdom is on debate. Zayd was born in Medina and was martyred in Kufa.

He did not believe in taqiyya; he also denounced those who dissociated the Shaykhayn.[1] He advised people to obey the Holy Qur'an, sunna; and wage jihad against tyranny and support the poor. Zayd provoked an uprising against Yusuf b. 'Umar, the governor of Kufa. People of Kufa left him alone; as a result he was martyred in the battle. Al-Majmu' is the most important work penned by Zayd b. 'Ali on fiqh and hadith.[2]

 

http://en.wikishia.net/view/Zayd_b._al-Imam_al-Sajjad_(a)

زید بن علی

 
 
بسم اللّه الرّحمن الرّحیم
زید بن علی بن حسین بن علی بن ابی طالب
مقبره زید بن علی2.jpg
کردار امامزادہ،بنی امیہ کے خلاف قیام
نام زید بن علی بن حسین بن علی بن ابی طالب
کنیت ابو الحسین
لقب زید شہید، حلیف القرآن، زید الازیاد.
میلاد ۷۵ یا ۷۸ یا ۸۰ ہجری.
مولد مدینہ
وفات ۱۲۰، ۱۲۱ یا ۱۲۲ ہجری.
مسکن مدینہ
والد فرزند امام سجاد
والدہ جیدا
اولاد یحیی، حسین،محمد ، عیسی
عمر 42 سال
مشہور امام زادے
عباس بن علی، زینب کبری، فاطمہ معصومہ، علی اکبر، علی اصغر، عبد العظیم حسنی، احمد بن موسی، سید محمد، سیدہ نفیسہ

زید بن علی بن حسین بن علی بن ابی طالب، لقب "زید شہید" امام زین العابدین (ع) کی اولاد میں سے ہیں اور امام محمد باقر (ع) اور امام جعفر صادق (ع) کے معاصر ہیں، زیدی فرقہ آپ سے منسوب ہے۔ آپ کی ولادت مدینہ میں اور شہادت کوفہ میں ہوئی۔ 

زید قرآن مجید کی مخصوص قرائت کے حامل تھے اور آپ تقیہ کے مخالف تھے اور ایسے افراد سے جو شیخین پر تبرا کرتے تھے، بیزاری کا اظہار کرتے تھے۔[1] آپ لوگوں کو کتاب و سنت کی پیروی اور جابر حکمرانوں سے جہاد اور محروم افراد کی حمایت اور ضرورت مندوں کی دستگیری کی دعوت دیتے تھے۔[2] زید نے کوفہ میں یوسف بن عمر کی گورنری کے زمانہ میں اس کے خلاف قیام کیا لیکن اہل کوفہ نے آپ کا ساتھ نہیں دیا۔

 

http://ur.wikishia.net/view/زید_بن_علی

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I thought this thread was about Zayd ibn Ali (rh) not Abu Bakr and Umar...

Anyways I believe Zayd ibn Ali (rh) was mistaken for revolting since it was not done with the permission of the Imam (as). 

A number of our people has narrated from Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn 'isa from Ali ibn al- Hakam from Aban who has that al-Ahwal reported to him the following.

"Zayd ibn Ali ibn al-Husayn (a.s.) sent called up on to meet him when he was in hiding. 
When I met him, Zayd said, "O abu Ja'far, what would say if someone will from us would 
come to you asking to join us? Will you rise up with him (against the enemies)?" I said, 
"Would it be your father or brother I would have joined them." He then said, "I want to rise 
up against these people. Come and join me." I then said, "No, may Allah my soul of service to 
you." He then said, "Is it that you keep yourself away from me?" I said, " It is only one soul. 
If Allah's authority on earth exists, then those keeping away from you would have saved 
themselves and those joining you would have faced their destruction. If there would Divine 
authority exist one earth then people joining and keeping away from would be the same." He 
then said, "O abu Ja'far, I would sit with my father at the same table he would feed me 
chunky morsels and cool off for me the hot one out kindness and diligent care. Do you think 
he was not afraid for me from the fire of hell? So he has informed you about religion and did 
not inform me?" I said, " May Allah make my soul of service to you, it is also because of the 
kindness of your father to you that to save you from the fire he did not inform you. He was 
afraid for you that after having the information you would ignore his guidance and so you 
become subject of fire He informed me also and if I would follow I will be safe and become 
destroyed if disobeyed for he which he was not that much concerned. Then I told him, 
May Allah make my soul of service to you, are you of a higher degree of excellence or the 
prophets?" He said, "It is the prophets." I said, "Consider that Ya'qub has said to Joseph, 'My 
son do not tell your dream to your brothers. They may plot against you. Why he not inform 
the brothers so that they would not plot against Josephe?.He hid it from them such the way 
your father has done because he was afraid about you." Then He said, "When you say that, I 
swear to Allah that your friend (the Imam (a.s.) told me in Madina that I will be killed and 
crucified in al-Kunnasa and that he has a book with him that lists the people killed and 
crucified." I then went for Hajj and reported the story of Zayd to abu 'Abdallah (a.s.) and 
what I said to Zayd. The Imam (a.s.) said, "You surrounded him from his fron, back, left, 
right, above and below and did not leave for any way out. 

Regardless he did help expose Bani Umayya's crimes. If anyone want's to learn more about his life I'd recommend to read this https://zaydiyyah.wordpress.com/2010/09/24/imam-zaids-biography-ch-3-ch-4-and-ch-5/.

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Quote

Believe me brother, I've heard all of the shia arguments already.. and im not convinced.... So your just going to deny all of the good that Umar (RA) and Abu Bakr  (RA) did? Abu Bakr was one of the first converts to Islam, the one who freed Bilal (RA), the one who took a beating at the hands of the Quraysh and when he woke up he's only concern was "how is rasoolullah?", the one who would give all of his wealth in Allah's cause. And Umar ibn kattab was the one who said " ya rasoolullah, I love you more than I love myself", the one who came into Jerusalem pulling a jewish slave ona camel. IRAN is Muslim TODAY because of UMAR! I could go on and on about the virtues and great efforts of the sahaba (RA). 

And the moment the Prophet (saws) is not among us he goes and broke the new covenant Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى made between Muslims;

The Prophet said,

"I will soon leave you and be out of your sight. I have made a pledge with my nation regarding the covenant of 'Ali b. Abi Talib, which will be like the examples of past nations, for they will oppose and disobey my deputy. Surely, I will renew my covenant through 'Ali, 'so he who breaks his word only breaks it to the detriment of himself. And he who fulfills that which he has promised Allah - He will give him a great reward.' (48:10)"

40 - في كتاب معاني الأخبار باسناده إلى ابن عباس عن النبي صلى الله عليه وآله حديث طويل وفيه قال صلى الله عليه وآله: وانى مفارقكم عن قريب، وخارج من بين أظهركم، ولقد عهدت إلى أمتي في عهد علي بن أبي طالب، وانها لراكبة سنن من قبلها من الأمم في مخالفة وصيي وعصيانه، ألا وانى مجدد عليكم عهدي في علي، فمن نكث فإنما ينكث على نفسه ومن أوفى بما عاهد عليه الله فسيؤتيه اجرا عظيما.

(Ma`ani al-Akhbar)

Edited by Abu Nur

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7 hours ago, Mawdudi said:

Believe me brother, I've heard all of the shia arguments already.. and im not convinced.... So your just going to deny all of the good that Umar (RA) and Abu Bakr  (RA) did? Abu Bakr was one of the first converts to Islam, the one who freed Bilal (RA), the one who took a beating at the hands of the Quraysh and when he woke up he's only concern was "how is rasoolullah?", the one who would give all of his wealth in Allah's cause. And Umar ibn kattab was the one who said " ya rasoolullah, I love you more than I love myself", the one who came into Jerusalem pulling a jewish slave ona camel. IRAN is Muslim TODAY because of UMAR! I could go on and on about the virtues and great efforts of the sahaba (RA). 

Also, Shias often quote tabari and bukhari and other Sunni narrators when it favours them! And you reject them when it goes against your theology?! Bit hypocritical no? I can even prove to you using shais sources that the alhulbayt honoured UMAR. Just look at Nahj ul balagha sermon 227.

Finally, if you STILL reject all these proofs, then answer this... what good do you get out of cursing Umar and Abu Bakr?

No, it doesn't matter all they did. They did not honor the Prophet's wish of making Ali (a) the caliph, and Umar disobeyed the Prophet (s) in his last days, when he was sick and struggling, he asked the sahabah for a pen and paper to write his last will (probably the imamah), and Umar said "This man is seriously ill (talking nonsense), the Quran is enough for us!" While the Quran itself says, ""O you who believe, obey Allah and His Messenger ... " [Al-Qur'an 8:20] "We did not send any Messenger but for him to be obeyed by the permission of Allah." [Al-Qur'an 4:63], "Whoever obeys Allah and the Messenger is with those whom Allah has blessed." [Al-Qur'an 4:68]

So, as you can see, it does not matter if the prophet was sick, old, unconsious, etc. When he gives a command, it is WAJIB to obey him. What did Umar do?

Narrated Ibn 'Abbas:

When Allah's Apostle was on his death-bed and in the house there were some people among whom was 'Umar bin Al-Khattab, the Prophet said, "Come, let me write for you a statement after which you will not go astray." 'Umar said, "The Prophet is seriously ill and you have the Qur'an; so the Book of Allah is enough for us." The people present in the house differed and quarrelled. Some said "Go near so that the Prophet may write for you a statement after which you will not go astray," while the others said as Umar said. When they caused a hue and cry before the Prophet, Allah's Apostle said, "Go away!" Narrated 'Ubaidullah: Ibn 'Abbas used to say, "It was very unfortunate that Allah's Apostle was prevented from writing that statement for them because of their disagreement and noise."

Also, @Mawdudi, the reason we quote from Sunni books when discussing with Sunnis, is because Sunnis accept only from their own books, so when we show them the truth from their OWN books, it would make them hypocrites to not accept the truth.

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http://www.*******.org/zaydiyya has some translations of zaydi books. It's mostly fiqh though, but there is one tafsir which proves verses of the Quran which were revealed regarding Imam Ali (as) which is pretty interesting. I heard on a speech which was on tv once that there are Zaydi hadith condemning the 3 caliphs but forgot the book which he quoted :( 

Edited by Mansur Bakhtiari
the word tashayyu is being blocked?

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14 hours ago, Mansur Bakhtiari said:

I thought this thread was about Zayd ibn Ali (rh) not Abu Bakr and Umar...

Anyways I believe Zayd ibn Ali (rh) was mistaken for revolting since it was not done with the permission of the Imam (as). 

 

Quote

According to reports of both the sects, it is learnt that he had a good faith. He took up Jihad to take the revenge of the blood of Husayn (a.s.) and to destroy the mischief of the enemies. It was same as the mission of Ibrahim and Mukhtar. This was not an illegal act. And neither Imam Muhammad Baqir nor Imam Sadiq (a.s.) had prohibited such a fight. Thus, he cannot be blamed for that. Which devotee of Ahlul Bayt (a.s.) would not desire to revenge the blood of Imam Husayn (a.s.)?

What can be said of Zaid who was seeking the revenge for his own grandfather? Books say that Zaid fought the war by the permission of Imam Baqir and Imam Sadiq (a.s.) and they did not express any sort of disapproval. If they had not approved, they would not have expressed such sorrow and anguish on the killing of Zaid. The two Imams have always prayed for the well-being of Zaid. In the end, the writer wishes to state that the matter of Zaid has no connection with the matter of the three Caliphs. The above objection of Ahlul Sunnat is not worth countering.

https://www.al-islam.org/misbah-uz-zulam-roots-karbala-tragedy-sayyid-imdad-imam/zaid-ibn-ali-ibn-husayn-or-zaid-martyr

Imam Ali ar-Ridha spoke of him respectfully:

 

..he (Zayd bin Ali) was one of the scholars from the Household of Muhammad and got angry for the sake of the Honorable the Exalted God. He fought with the enemies of God until he got killed in His path. My father Musa ibn Ja'far narrated that he had heard his father Ja'far ibn Muhammad say, "May God bless my uncle Zayd...He consulted with me about his uprising and I told him, "O my uncle! Do this if you are pleased with being killed and your corpse being hung up from the gallows in the al-Konasa neighborhood." After Zayd left, As-Sadiq said, "Woe be to those who hear his call but do not help him!".

UYUN AKHBAR AL-REZA -The Source of Traditions on Imam Reza Abu Ja'far Muhammad ibn Ali ibn Hussein ibn Musa ibn Babawayh al-Qummi (Sheikh Sadooq), p466

Edited by Salsabeel

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On 4/2/2018 at 2:08 AM, Salsabeel said:

https://www.al-islam.org/misbah-uz-zulam-roots-karbala-tragedy-sayyid-imdad-imam/zaid-ibn-ali-ibn-husayn-or-zaid-martyr

Imam Ali ar-Ridha spoke of him respectfully:

 

..he (Zayd bin Ali) was one of the scholars from the Household of Muhammad and got angry for the sake of the Honorable the Exalted God. He fought with the enemies of God until he got killed in His path. My father Musa ibn Ja'far narrated that he had heard his father Ja'far ibn Muhammad say, "May God bless my uncle Zayd...He consulted with me about his uprising and I told him, "O my uncle! Do this if you are pleased with being killed and your corpse being hung up from the gallows in the al-Konasa neighborhood." After Zayd left, As-Sadiq said, "Woe be to those who hear his call but do not help him!".

UYUN AKHBAR AL-REZA -The Source of Traditions on Imam Reza Abu Ja'far Muhammad ibn Ali ibn Hussein ibn Musa ibn Babawayh al-Qummi (Sheikh Sadooq), p466

Hmm, the hadith is Sahih so maybe I was wrong about this, I heard a scholar say that this specific hadith was majhool but he didnt read the full hadith nor did he mention that the chain was Sahih so I'll look into this again thanks. Here's the full hadith http://shiaonlinelibrary.com/الكتب/1143_عيون-أخبار-الرضا-ع-الشيخ-الصدوق-ج-٢/الصفحة_224#top

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I think y'all underestimate the enormous resources of ummayyad state and paucity of manpower of kufa 

Even if whole of kufa supported hussaim even then the uprising was to be crushed in a few weeks by Syrian army which had grown enormously resourceful under 40 yrs of muawiyah 

Furthermore the tribal demographics of kufa at death of muawiyah is far different from the kufa that so whole heartedly supported Ali in 37 AH

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On 4/1/2018 at 7:22 AM, Mawdudi said:

So a serious question I want to ask to the twelver shia is: Are'nt these people that deserted Zayd ibn Ali (RA) the same ones that deserted Imam Husayn (RA)? and isn't this proof (among many more proofs) that we should curse abu bakr and Umar?

You are quoting one of the sentence of Hazrat Zaid from sources which are not highly reliable if related to first 3 caliphs due to their blind love for them. 

There is enough hadiths and narrations and historical proofs that Fatima (SA) daughter of Prophet (SAWW) was angry with AbuBakr and Umar till her last time.

Another important source is Nahjul Balagha and you must read commentary of Shiqshiqya Khutba to understand the truth.

On 4/1/2018 at 7:22 AM, Mawdudi said:

The people of Kufah were now called upon to honour their oaths and fulfill their pledges
.They did gather around Zayd ibn ‘Ali but not to protect him, rather 
to question him about his beliefs (after inciting him to accept their oaths and rise 
up against the rulers):

Yes, people of Kufa betrayed Hazrat Zaid just like they have betrayed his grandfather Imam Husain  (AS) but why you are no mentioning that great Jurist of time and first Imam of Ahle Sunnat Imam AbuHanifa also betrayed him.

Do you have guts to ask Imam Abu Hanifa for his betrayal? He was present there in Kufa at the time of rising of Hazrat Zaid against Banu Umayya corrupt rule.

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