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In the Name of God بسم الله

Hawza's education on mysticism

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Why are hawza students learning about mysticism from those who are not shia of Ali? I understand knowledge can be gained from anyone but shouldn't mysticism be gained from those who accepted the wilayat of Imam Ali? How could you reach enlightenment without that? We don't even accept ahadith from people like Abu Bakr and these sufis are their followers. 

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On 3/22/2018 at 8:39 PM, aaaaaa said:

Why are hawza students learning about mysticism from those who are not shia of Ali? I understand knowledge can be gained from anyone but shouldn't mysticism be gained from those who accepted the wilayat of Imam Ali? How could you reach enlightenment without that? We don't even accept ahadith from people like Abu Bakr and these sufis are their followers. 

 

On 3/23/2018 at 3:05 AM, aaaaaa said:

Like sufism or tasawwuf 

Salaam,

Who said Hawza students are learning about mysticism from those who are not Shi'a?
 

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On 3/26/2018 at 12:19 PM, Sirius_Bright said:

Islamic knowledge should be only from Ahlulbait (ams). 

Im not sure if that is true. I have understood this not as you can only get knowledge from Ahlulbayt but  what does not go against their or fits in with their shared knowledge. I will get the information about this issue inshaAllah.

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21 hours ago, Mohammed-Mehdi said:

Im not sure if that is true. I have understood this not as you can only get knowledge from Ahlulbayt but  what does not go against their or fits in with their shared knowledge. I will get the information about this issue inshaAllah.

When it comes to God and religion, there's no one we can refer except Ahlulbait (ams). Do you think people like ibne Arabi stand anywhere against the likes of Hazrat Mohammed (sawa) and his progeny. 

http://www.sistani.org/arabic/archive/257/

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15 minutes ago, Sirius_Bright said:

When it comes to God and religion, there's no one we can refer except Ahlulbait (ams). Do you think people like ibne Arabi stand anywhere against the likes of Hazrat Mohammed (sawa) and his progeny. 

So how about logic ? Or a teacher and a knowledgeable person ? We can get knowledge and conclude certain facts about God, Prophet-hood and more with reasoning. How does this work in regards to your statement and the hadith ?

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16 minutes ago, Mohammed-Mehdi said:

So how about logic ? Or a teacher and a knowledgeable person ? We can get knowledge and conclude certain facts about God, Prophet-hood and more with reasoning. How does this work in regards to your statement and the hadith ?

Logic is fine as long as it is going with teachings of Aimma (ams) i.e. to understand deen and derive a conclusion from a hadith. A knowledgeable person can teach the knowledge that came from Ahlulbait (ams). Example: A teacher teaching in a Hawza. Still, if he has a personal opinion in religion then that is not acceptable. 

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On 2018-03-27 at 12:01 PM, Sirius_Bright said:

When it comes to God and religion, there's no one we can refer except Ahlulbait (ams). Do you think people like ibne Arabi stand anywhere against the likes of Hazrat Mohammed (sawa) and his progeny. 

http://www.sistani.org/arabic/archive/257/

Thanks for linking this 

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On 3/29/2018 at 6:38 AM, aaaaaa said:

Thanks for linking this 

 

On 3/27/2018 at 12:01 PM, Sirius_Bright said:

When it comes to God and religion, there's no one we can refer except Ahlulbait (ams). Do you think people like ibne Arabi stand anywhere against the likes of Hazrat Mohammed (sawa) and his progeny. 

http://www.sistani.org/arabic/archive/257/

Salam,

Such people as Rumi and Ibn Arabi would consider themselves to be slaves of the Prophet (S) and his family (as).  They may not have been Shia in form and in outward activity, but they were certainly Shi’a in their hearts or else they would not be seeing Prophet (S) or Anbiya (as) in their waking states with their eyes and learning from them.

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Im still not sure how OP comes with this idea of hawza students learning about this subject from non-shia.

Normally it is true that you can accept from others, even if they are non-believers. But since we are talking Hawza and a subject that is teached in Hawza the statement does not seem logical to me

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On 3/22/2018 at 9:09 AM, aaaaaa said:

Why are hawza students learning about mysticism from those who are not shia of Ali? I understand knowledge can be gained from anyone but shouldn't mysticism be gained from those who accepted the wilayat of Imam Ali? How could you reach enlightenment without that? We don't even accept ahadith from people like Abu Bakr and these sufis are their followers. 

This is probably one of the most divisive subjects in the Shia community, with some scholars like Allamah Hurr al-Amili (ra) being totally against it and others like Allamah Hilli (ra) giving ijazah to scholars who were known as mystics. From speaking to people I'd describe as "moderate" sufi's they've always told me sufism/mysticism is a subject in Islam, not a separate strand or group. I guess you could argue that just like often we borrow from the history, rijal, arabic books of Sunni's, we could also borrow from their mystic works since it's a subject and if they have beneficial knowledge on it why shouldn't we benefit from it as well [keeping in mind to only take the good and leave the bad].

But then again Avicenna and Ibn Arabi are nothing compared to the "irfan" of the Ahlulbayt (as) present in books like Basair al-Darajaat, Sahifa Sajjadiya, Nahjul Balagha, etc. And while Avicenna and Ibn Arabi's works are riddled with issues and mistakes and fallacies and blasphemy the irfan of ahlulbayt (as) is pure and true. I think Allamah Hurr al-Amili (ra) made this part of his case in his book al-radd ala as-sufiya (the refutation of the Sufis) saying that we should not add anything that the Nabi (saw) and the Aimmah (as) didn't preach. Sure certain subjects like fiqh, ijtihad, ilm al-rijal etc came into existence out of necessity, but it's different then having people like Rumi or Ibn Arabi as religious and spiritual guides.


 حدثنا محمد بن الحسين(ثقة) عن عبد الرحمن بن أبي هاشم (ثقة) عن سالم [بن مكرم] (ثقة) عن أبي عبد الله عليه السلام قال:
(الناس يغدون على ثلاثة عالم ومتعلم وغثاء فنحن العلماء وشيعتنا المتعلمون وسائر الناس غثاء

Told us Muhammad b. al Hasan(trustworthy) from Abdur Rahman b. Abi Hashim(trustworthy) from Saalim[b. Mukarram](trustworthy) from Abi Abdullah(as) who said: "The people became upon three(categories) of scholar and student and scum, so we(as) are the scholars and our(as) shias are the students and the rest of the people are scum."

I suggest taking your deen from scholars not scum :grin:.

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On 3/26/2018 at 4:37 AM, sirat-al-nur said:

Salaam,

Who said Hawza students are learning about mysticism from those who are not Shi'a?

 

On 3/31/2018 at 12:59 PM, Mohammed-Mehdi said:

Im still not sure how OP comes with this idea of hawza students learning about this subject from non-shia.

Normally it is true that you can accept from others, even if they are non-believers. But since we are talking Hawza and a subject that is teached in Hawza the statement does not seem logical to me

Yes, the hawza instructors are shia. We are talking about learning from non-shias’ books. 

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On 3/31/2018 at 10:08 AM, eThErEaL said:

Salam,

Such people as Rumi and Ibn Arabi would consider themselves to be slaves of the Prophet (S) and his family (as).  They may not have been Shia in form and in outward activity, but they were certainly Shi’a in their hearts or else they would not be seeing Prophet (S) or Anbiya (as) in their waking states with their eyes and learning from them.

When Imam al-Busiri [a Sunni] composed Qasidat al-Burdah, he praised the first three caliphs in the verses. He reports seeing the Prophet sawa in his dream and him being happy with this poem. Do you really think the Prophet would be happy about someone praising the men who angered his daughter? 

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45 minutes ago, Mansur Bakhtiari said:

This is probably one of the most divisive subjects in the Shia community, with some scholars like Allamah Hurr al-Amili (ra) being totally against it and others like Allamah Hilli (ra) giving ijazah to scholars who were known as mystics. From speaking to people I'd describe as "moderate" sufi's they've always told me sufism/mysticism is a subject in Islam, not a separate strand or group. I guess you could argue that just like often we borrow from the history, rijal, arabic books of Sunni's, we could also borrow from their mystic works since it's a subject and if they have beneficial knowledge on it why shouldn't we benefit from it as well [keeping in mind to only take the good and leave the bad].

But then again Avicenna and Ibn Arabi are nothing compared to the "irfan" of the Ahlulbayt (as) present in books like Basair al-Darajaat, Sahifa Sajjadiya, Nahjul Balagha, etc. And while Avicenna and Ibn Arabi's works are riddled with issues and mistakes and fallacies and blasphemy the irfan of ahlulbayt (as) is pure and true. I think Allamah Hurr al-Amili (ra) made this part of his case in his book al-radd ala as-sufiya (the refutation of the Sufis) saying that we should not add anything that the Nabi (saw) and the Aimmah (as) didn't preach. Sure certain subjects like fiqh, ijtihad, ilm al-rijal etc came into existence out of necessity, but it's different then having people like Rumi or Ibn Arabi as religious and spiritual guides.


 حدثنا محمد بن الحسين(ثقة) عن عبد الرحمن بن أبي هاشم (ثقة) عن سالم [بن مكرم] (ثقة) عن أبي عبد الله عليه السلام قال:
(الناس يغدون على ثلاثة عالم ومتعلم وغثاء فنحن العلماء وشيعتنا المتعلمون وسائر الناس غثاء

Told us Muhammad b. al Hasan(trustworthy) from Abdur Rahman b. Abi Hashim(trustworthy) from Saalim[b. Mukarram](trustworthy) from Abi Abdullah(as) who said: "The people became upon three(categories) of scholar and student and scum, so we(as) are the scholars and our(as) shias are the students and the rest of the people are scum."

I suggest taking your deen from scholars not scum :grin:.

 

On 2018-03-27 at 12:40 PM, Sirius_Bright said:

Logic is fine as long as it is going with teachings of Aimma (ams) i.e. to understand deen and derive a conclusion from a hadith. A knowledgeable person can teach the knowledge that came from Ahlulbait (ams). Example: A teacher teaching in a Hawza. Still, if he has a personal opinion in religion then that is not acceptable. 

The question is, can we group the issue of spirituality with the other topics of history or hadith? I say no because history and hadith studies do not need a moral teacher since these are not topics of morality. While spirituality needs a moral guide since it is a topic of morality.  Anyone disagree? I’d love to hear your thoughts. 

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5 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

Salaam

Such people as Rumi and Ibn Arabi would consider themselves to be slaves of the Prophet (S) and his family (as).  They may not have been Shia in form and in outward activity, but they were certainly Shi’a in their hearts or else they would not be seeing Prophet (S) or Anbiya (as) in their waking states with their eyes and learning from them.

Alaikas Salaam,

Proof for the bold part?

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On 3/31/2018 at 3:39 PM, Sirius_Bright said:

Alaikas Salaam,

Proof for the bold part?

 

On 3/31/2018 at 2:37 PM, aaaaaa said:

When Imam al-Busiri [a Sunni] composed Qasidat al-Burdah, he praised the first three caliphs in the verses. He reports seeing the Prophet sawa in his dream and him being happy with this poem. Do you really think the Prophet would be happy about someone praising the men who angered his daughter? 

My apologies, I didn’t notice the “waking” part so my reply doesn’t follow. I, too, would love if you shared some examples. 

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Anyone can lie and claim to have had a dream or some divine inspiration. There are many videos online of ex-Muslims claiming to have seen Jesus (as) in their dreams saying he's God, and other examples in history of people claiming to have been divinely inspired, this isn't a good way of affirming someone's truthfulness or of them being a Shia.....

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On 3/31/2018 at 2:37 PM, aaaaaa said:

When Imam al-Busiri [a Sunni] composed Qasidat al-Burdah, he praised the first three caliphs in the verses. He reports seeing the Prophet sawa in his dream and him being happy with this poem. Do you really think the Prophet would be happy about someone praising the men who angered his daughter? 

Yes.  That actually did happen.  Imam al- busiri, did see the prophet (S).

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On 3/31/2018 at 1:58 PM, Mansur Bakhtiari said:

This is probably one of the most divisive subjects in the Shia community, with some scholars like Allamah Hurr al-Amili (ra) being totally against it and others like Allamah Hilli (ra) giving ijazah to scholars who were known as mystics. From speaking to people I'd describe as "moderate" sufi's they've always told me sufism/mysticism is a subject in Islam, not a separate strand or group. I guess you could argue that just like often we borrow from the history, rijal, arabic books of Sunni's, we could also borrow from their mystic works since it's a subject and if they have beneficial knowledge on it why shouldn't we benefit from it as well [keeping in mind to only take the good and leave the bad].

But then again Avicenna and Ibn Arabi are nothing compared to the "irfan" of the Ahlulbayt (as) present in books like Basair al-Darajaat, Sahifa Sajjadiya, Nahjul Balagha, etc. And while Avicenna and Ibn Arabi's works are riddled with issues and mistakes and fallacies and blasphemy the irfan of ahlulbayt (as) is pure and true. I think Allamah Hurr al-Amili (ra) made this part of his case in his book al-radd ala as-sufiya (the refutation of the Sufis) saying that we should not add anything that the Nabi (saw) and the Aimmah (as) didn't preach. Sure certain subjects like fiqh, ijtihad, ilm al-rijal etc came into existence out of necessity, but it's different then having people like Rumi or Ibn Arabi as religious and spiritual guides.


 حدثنا محمد بن الحسين(ثقة) عن عبد الرحمن بن أبي هاشم (ثقة) عن سالم [بن مكرم] (ثقة) عن أبي عبد الله عليه السلام قال:
(الناس يغدون على ثلاثة عالم ومتعلم وغثاء فنحن العلماء وشيعتنا المتعلمون وسائر الناس غثاء

Told us Muhammad b. al Hasan(trustworthy) from Abdur Rahman b. Abi Hashim(trustworthy) from Saalim[b. Mukarram](trustworthy) from Abi Abdullah(as) who said: "The people became upon three(categories) of scholar and student and scum, so we(as) are the scholars and our(as) shias are the students and the rest of the people are scum."

I suggest taking your deen from scholars not scum :grin:.

What other scholars are against it? Are there hawzas where the Sufi stuff isn’t taught?

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On 6/20/2018 at 10:28 AM, aaaaaa said:

What other scholars are against it? Are there hawzas where the Sufi stuff isn’t taught?

Najaf.

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