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One good argument i have found is the fact that when people time, the angel of death takes their souls from different parts of the world. However, this is not shirk because Allah gave the power similarly, Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى can give the holy saints the ability to hear us.

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On 3/20/2018 at 12:20 PM, Follower of Ahlulbayt said:

Many people have argued that saying ya ali and doing tawassul is shirk because it makes the prophet/imams all hearing and makes them able to hear people all around the world in different languages and so on. This seems like a strong argument against tawassul. Thoughts?

What is your thought when the people say Ya Muhammad generally by Sunnis?

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57 minutes ago, Follower of Ahlulbayt said:

One good argument i have found is the fact that when people time, the angel of death takes their souls from different parts of the world. However, this is not shirk because Allah gave the power similarly, Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى can give the holy saints the ability to hear us.

Another argument can be, when Allah gave Iblees the ability to misguide and whisper wrong things into billions of people's ear all over the world at the same time, then surely Hujjats of Allah are far more superior in abilities and they can guide, hear and spiritually heal us.

Apart from that it's a beleif of all muslims that on the day of judgememt Ahlul Bayth (A.S) are going to do intercession of believers, obviously they know and aware of acts of believers and nonbelievers in this life thats why on the day of Judgement they are going to identify believers and do their intercession. Imam Ali (A.S) is distributor of water of Kasur. He (A.S) is also aware of those who love him and hate him and water of Kasur is only for those who truely accept his Waliayt.

Imam Jaffiar e Sadiq (A.S):"Verily our intercession never reacher the one who takes prayer lightly." (Bihar ul Anwar, vol. 82, p.236). Ahlul Bayth (A.S) are aware of those who pray and those who don't. That's why intercession is only for those who take prayers seriously.

Lastly there are so many cases where Ahlul Bayth (A.S) comes into people's dream to solve their problem, this is beacuse they are aware of our problems.

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On 3/20/2018 at 2:20 AM, Follower of Ahlulbayt said:

Many people have argued that saying ya ali and doing tawassul is shirk because it makes the prophet/imams all hearing and makes them able to hear people all around the world in different languages and so on. This seems like a strong argument against tawassul. Thoughts?

Tawassul by its very definition can't be shirk because it is a means of getting to Allah. Allah chose Muhammad (saw) to deliver his message to us and the AhlulBayt to protect that message. In return, we have to use the same path to get to Allah.

Best way to look at tawassul is dua-e-tawassul. There is no shirk in it whatsoever.

1 hour ago, SIAR14 said:

Another argument can be, when Allah gave Iblees the ability to misguide and whisper wrong things into billions of people's ear all over the world at the same time, then surely Hujjats of Allah are far more superior in abilities and they can guide, hear and spiritually heal us.

Awesome reference brother.

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It is only the ones who limit Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى and what He can, that think He can not give Ilm or other abilities to some like Ahlulbayt (AS)
If one truly believes that Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى has no limit whatsoever and can do what He wants, why can't he grant these noble positions to some of the holiest among us ?
Is believing the miracles of Isa (AS) also shirk ? Why not? Isn't that also only what Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى can do like healing the crippled and blind ?

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On 3/20/2018 at 3:20 AM, Follower of Ahlulbayt said:

 all hearing 

Only God has the right rule, only God is ALL Hearing and ALL Knowing. These are counter arguments and distraction. These people have been able to distract us, point out to them the Domain Issue. 

إِنَّمَا وَلِيُّكُمُ اللَّهُ وَرَسُولُهُ وَالَّذِينَ آمَنُوا الَّذِينَ يُقِيمُونَ الصَّلَاةَ وَيُؤْتُونَ الزَّكَاةَ وَهُمْ رَاكِعُونَ {55}

[Pickthal 5:55] Your guardian can be only Allah; and His messenger and those who believe, who establish worship and pay the poordue, and bow down (in prayer).

*****

"For whoever I am his Leader (mawla), 'Ali is his Leader (mawla)."

Do they say, God is the Mawla, so this is Shirk? or we can't articulate to them that they are either ignorant of the basic concepts or misleading us. 

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On 30/03/2018 at 1:39 PM, Follower of Ahlulbayt said:

One good argument i have found is the fact that when people time, the angel of death takes their souls from different parts of the world. However, this is not shirk because Allah gave the power similarly, Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى can give the holy saints the ability to hear us.

The reality is, if you look at al-Kafi, book of Dua, and every reliable or authentic Dua, when our Prophet or Aimmah are asked: What do we say in times of need? What do we do when we are fearful? What do we say in our supplications? How do we approach God? Not once, in the entirety of al-Kafi do you find the Imam ever tell an individual 'Cry out Ya Ali, Ya Jaffer as-Sadiq'.  Do you know what they say with regards to making Dua? They are clear: Cry out Ya Allah, glorify him, praise him before asking for favours, send blessings on Muhammed and his purified progeny, and ask Allah through them, don't ask to them. 

I have yet to find a single Dua in the entirety of al-Kafi, book of Dua, where Allah the Almighty is not addressed in the dua. If someone now comes and claims that they will say 'Ya Ali' in times of difficulty, sadness, fear, and the like, then they may as well disregard what the Aimmah have taught us to say in these circumstances.

Don't take my word for it, have a look for yourself and read this entire chapter: http://fourshiabooks.com/view/al-kafi/6

Now, the reality is, the Prophet may be able to hear us, with the permission of Allah, and this does not make him all-hearing or all-knowing , because none but Allah can possess absolute qualities. However, did he ? It's one thing to claim something could be possible and another thing to claim it is definitely the case. Ya Muhammed with the right intention might not be shirk , but does it constitute best practise? Is it in line with what Muhammed (saw) and his purified progeny relayed to us clearly , concerning the proper etiquette and manner of performing Dua? On the balance of the evidence, it is rather clear that is not how we should be making Dua.

If you find people who encourage you to make a Dua, where Allah the Almighty is not mentioned, you need to question them and raise your guard. Even if one recites 'Ya Muhammed, i turn to Allah, through you, O Allah, i have turned to you through Muhammed, so grant my Dua', you still mention Allah in it. However a malang crying out 'Ya Ali grant me a child' is upon something i am not upon in this regard. 

Edited by Intellectual Resistance

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The argument that Allah used a medium to get to us, and so we have to use the same medium to get to him is extremely flawed. 

Allah the Almighty, used mortals to get to us for a complex array of reasons. The Quran touches on these reasons and refutes those who asked why Allah had not sent angels or that which is immortal. We know mortals are relatable, and that it helps protect - somewhat - against worshipping them, as they are just like us, and eat and drink, and slaves of God. We know that it is not the way of God to just directly speak to or reveal upon human beings, and that this merit is only granted to those chosen by him for a specific purpose. There's also the element of faith, whereby we believe based on clear evidence, and should not demand to directly talk to God -but believe in the reality of the unseen.

However, when you try to apply the above in turn it so its the human being approaching God, that doesn't apply. God isn't a human being who has been tested by being sent Messengers, so that we can not talk to God directly but that God believes in the unseen through clear evidence, or that he requires a certain 'creature' to come to him that he can relate to , because this is all blasphemy and absurd ,  and God forbid such a thing ever be associated to the almighty.  God has no restrictions, no constraints , no tests, no limitations like we human beings do. This is a point that needs to be made loudly and clearly. 

The reality is, the Prophet and Aimmah have clearly left for us Duas where we directly address God. They have given us clear instructions to cry out and call upon Allah. In fact, Allah has done this in the Quran and commanded us to call upon him by his beautiful names. So the idea we can't go directly to Allah is a lie, and predicated on flawed reasoning. We can and that is the main way we should be approaching the creator. Just because Allah sent a Prophet to reveal something to us, does not mean every time we have a request or want to talk to God, we have to go to that Prophet and ask him to do that, or worse, ask him to fulfil our need directly. That's absurdity and it's been proven that isn't even necessary, given that the same Prophets and Aimmah have given us Duas where we approach God directly.

Now, a case can be made that, while the default position should always be approaching God directly, we should seek a means of nearness to him. What does this mean ?

1. Our prayers

2. Fasting

3. Refraining from sins and asking forgiveness from sins (which can bar our prayers being answered)

4. Sending Salawat upon Muhammed and his purified progeny.

5. Asking Allah for the sake of, or through Muhammed and his purified progeny (similar to number four)

6. Asking others to pray for you (rather than asking them to directly grant you something, or asking them instead of God, by crying out their name).

 

It's no coincidence that these relatively modern innovations which have come from Ismaili or extreme elements and then become more mainstream were hardly even widely practised many centuries ago, and somehow people argue that it is a fundamental that is inseparable to our faith. This is what afflicts people of all religions and sects, being so brainwashed in dogma we can't think rationally. 

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Remember, Isa (as)curing the sick does not mean that every time one is sick, they now cry 'Ya Isa, cure my illness!'. Isa (as) performed miracles by the permission of Allah in a restricted and not absolute context! If someone was a believing person and far from Isa (as) and fell sick, they would not be crying 'O Isa cure me' but calling on the Lord of Isa to cure them. The purpose of that action was to prove his Prophethood, and not set a new precedent that people abandon calling out to God for help and call him instead.

 

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3 hours ago, Intellectual Resistance said:

Remember, Isa (as)curing the sick does not mean that every time one is sick, they now cry 'Ya Isa, cure my illness!'. Isa (as) performed miracles by the permission of Allah in a restricted and not absolute context! If someone was a believing person and far from Isa (as) and fell sick, they would not be crying 'O Isa cure me' but calling on the Lord of Isa to cure them. The purpose of that action was to prove his Prophethood, and not set a new precedent that people abandon calling out to God for help and call him instead.

 

i agree with what you generally say but i all i was trying to prove was that saying Ya Ali, or Ya muhammad (with the right intention) cannot be shirk. Whether if it is better practise not to say is a different discussion but there is no way one can be taken out of islam because of it.

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1 hour ago, Follower of Ahlulbayt said:

i agree with what you generally say but i all i was trying to prove was that saying Ya Ali, or Ya muhammad (with the right intention) cannot be shirk. Whether if it is better practise not to say is a different discussion but there is no way one can be taken out of islam because of it.

Yes, this is what i mean. While one could argue - and perhaps even present good evidence- as to why it is not shirk, it is hard to argue that it constitutes best practise.  My position is that it isn't shirk, but it isn't best practise. 

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وَإِذْ قُلْنَا لِلْمَلَائِكَةِ اسْجُدُوا لِآدَمَ فَسَجَدُوا إِلَّا إِبْلِيسَ أَبَىٰ وَاسْتَكْبَرَ وَكَانَ مِنَ الْكَافِرِينَ {34}

[Pickthal 2:34] And when We said unto the angels: Prostrate yourselves before Adam, they fell prostrate, all save Iblis. He demurred through pride, and so became a disbeliever.

*****

http://www.duas.org/aaleyasin/AleYasin.htm

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*****

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235049482-tawassul-and-istigatha/?page=4&tab=comments#comment-3049559

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235056681-hadith-of-the-ahlulbayt-as-against-tafweedh/?tab=comments#comment-3131749

Imam Mahdi (aj) says,

"Surely, we do not neglect your condition nor are we forgetful of your remembrance. Had it not been so, then, terrible calamities would have struck you and your enemies would have destroyed you."2

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9 hours ago, Intellectual Resistance said:

So the idea we can't go directly to Allah is a lie, and predicated on flawed reasoning.

وَمَا أَرْسَلْنَا مِنْ رَسُولٍ إِلَّا لِيُطَاعَ بِإِذْنِ اللَّهِ ۚ وَلَوْ أَنَّهُمْ إِذْ ظَلَمُوا أَنْفُسَهُمْ جَاءُوكَ فَاسْتَغْفَرُوا اللَّهَ وَاسْتَغْفَرَ لَهُمُ الرَّسُولُ لَوَجَدُوا اللَّهَ تَوَّابًا رَحِيمًا {64}

[Pickthal 4:64] We sent no messenger save that he should be obeyed by Allah's leave. And if, when they had wronged themselves, they had but come unto thee and asked forgiveness of Allah, and asked forgiveness of the messenger, they would have found Allah Forgiving, Merciful.

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4 minutes ago, S.M.H.A. said:

As a Shia, You do have a Living Imam? 

yes brother no one is arguing that saying ya ali is shirk. However, if we just look at what the imams taught, then it is clear going directly to Allah is preferred. First of all look at the quran and the amount of times we are asking Allah directly. Secondly, look at dua kumayl. Dua mashlool. Dua jawshan al kabeer. All the Duas in al kafi. Look at Sahifa Sajjadiya. All of it is filled with asking Allah directly. However I do not say that saying ya ali is shirk. This is where the debate should be. 

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36 minutes ago, S.M.H.A. said:
وَمَا أَرْسَلْنَا مِنْ رَسُولٍ إِلَّا لِيُطَاعَ بِإِذْنِ اللَّهِ ۚ وَلَوْ أَنَّهُمْ إِذْ ظَلَمُوا أَنْفُسَهُمْ جَاءُوكَ فَاسْتَغْفَرُوا اللَّهَ وَاسْتَغْفَرَ لَهُمُ الرَّسُولُ لَوَجَدُوا اللَّهَ تَوَّابًا رَحِيمًا {64}

[Pickthal 4:64] We sent no messenger save that he should be obeyed by Allah's leave. And if, when they had wronged themselves, they had but come unto thee and asked forgiveness of Allah, and asked forgiveness of the messenger, they would have found Allah Forgiving, Merciful.

Does this now mean if a man and woman are expecting a child, when she is delivering, they should cry out to Ali ibn Abi Talib to grant them a healthy, and functioning child? Or when a man is drowning, he should cry out to Ali ibn Abi Talib (as)? Or when we wrong ourselves at night in Sujood, we should cry out to Ali (as) and beg him to forgive our sins, because someone could argue Allah has given him the power to forgive all sins?

I don't view asking the Prophet to ask Allah on your behalf as Shirk, but i definitely believe the concept of Istigatha is being abused quite badly. Permissible =/= best practise. 

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1 minute ago, Intellectual Resistance said:

Does this now mean if a man and woman are expecting a child, when she is delivering, they should cry out to Ali ibn Abi Talib to grant them a healthy, and functioning child? Or when a man is drowning, he should cry out to Ali ibn Abi Talib (as)? Or when we wrong ourselves at night in Sujood, we should cry out to Ali (as) and beg him to forgive our sins, because someone could argue Allah has given him the power to forgive all sins?

I don't view asking the Prophet to ask Allah on your behalf as Shirk, but i definitely believe the concept of Istigatha is being abused quite badly. Permissible =/= best practise. 

You are evading the Issue. 4:64 is clear.

You do believe in 

Imam Sahib Al-'Asr Wa Al-Zaman, Al-Hujjah,  Al-Muntazar, Al- Qaim, Al-Mahdi(AS)

 

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1 minute ago, S.M.H.A. said:

You are evading the Issue. 4:64 is clear.

You do believe in 

Imam Sahib Al-'Asr Wa Al-Zaman, Al-Hujjah,  Al-Muntazar, Al- Qaim, Al-Mahdi(AS)

 

if you were drowning right now - God forbid such a thing ever happens to you - would you cry out to Allah for help, or would you cry out to Imam al-Madhi (ajfs)? Would you cry out to the latter despite clear traditions from our Imams commanding us to explicitly say 'Ya Allah' in times of fear? 

I also believe the Prophet (saw) is alive in his grave, in a manner that Allah knows how, praying for us. It matters not if someone is alive or not.

Edited by Intellectual Resistance

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7 minutes ago, Intellectual Resistance said:

if you were drowning right now - God forbid such a thing ever happens to you - would you cry out to Allah for help, or would you cry out to Imam al-Madhi (ajfs)? Would you cry out to the latter despite clear traditions from our Imams commanding us to explicitly say 'Ya Allah' in times of fear? 

I also believe the Prophet (saw) is alive in his grave, in a manner that Allah knows how, praying for us. It matters not if someone is alive or not.

If you do not want to answer a direct question which is important to this issue, just do not respond. 

We have a Representative of Allah(awj) and we are directed towards him, and like angels we obey our Lord's command.  

Our living Imam Sahib Al-'Asr Wa Al-Zaman, Al-Hujjah,  Al-Muntazar, Al- Qaim, Al-Mahdi(AS).

 

Edited by S.M.H.A.

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On 20/03/2018 at 7:20 AM, Follower of Ahlulbayt said:

Many people have argued that saying ya ali and doing tawassul is shirk because it makes the prophet/imams all hearing and makes them able to hear people all around the world in different languages and so on. This seems like a strong argument against tawassul. Thoughts?

You're referring to Istigatha, rather than Tawassul. I highly recommend watching this:

 

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13 hours ago, Intellectual Resistance said:

The reality is, if you look at al-Kafi, book of Dua, and every reliable or authentic Dua, when our Prophet or Aimmah are asked: What do we say in times of need? What do we do when we are fearful? What do we say in our supplications? How do we approach God? Not once, in the entirety of al-Kafi do you find the Imam ever tell an individual 'Cry out Ya Ali, Ya Jaffer as-Sadiq'.  Do you know what they say with regards to making Dua? They are clear: Cry out Ya Allah, glorify him, praise him before asking for favours, send blessings on Muhammed and his purified progeny, and ask Allah through them, don't ask to them. 

I have yet to find a single Dua in the entirety of al-Kafi, book of Dua, where Allah the Almighty is not addressed in the dua. If someone now comes and claims that they will say 'Ya Ali' in times of difficulty, sadness, fear, and the like, then they may as well disregard what the Aimmah have taught us to say in these circumstances.

Don't take my word for it, have a look for yourself and read this entire chapter: http://fourshiabooks.com/view/al-kafi/6

Now, the reality is, the Prophet may be able to hear us, with the permission of Allah, and this does not make him all-hearing or all-knowing , because none but Allah can possess absolute qualities. However, did he ? It's one thing to claim something could be possible and another thing to claim it is definitely the case. Ya Muhammed with the right intention might not be shirk , but does it constitute best practise? Is it in line with what Muhammed (saw) and his purified progeny relayed to us clearly , concerning the proper etiquette and manner of performing Dua? On the balance of the evidence, it is rather clear that is not how we should be making Dua.

If you find people who encourage you to make a Dua, where Allah the Almighty is not mentioned, you need to question them and raise your guard. Even if one recites 'Ya Muhammed, i turn to Allah, through you, O Allah, i have turned to you through Muhammed, so grant my Dua', you still mention Allah in it. However a malang crying out 'Ya Ali grant me a child' is upon something i am not upon in this regard. 

I have made this case before.

In my personal opinion, I think the shia today are mistaken in their method of intercession.

I do not believe saying Ya Ali etc is a viable means of assistance. 

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On 3/20/2018 at 7:20 AM, Follower of Ahlulbayt said:

Many people have argued that saying ya ali and doing tawassul is shirk because it makes the prophet/imams all hearing and makes them able to hear people all around the world in different languages and so on. This seems like a strong argument against tawassul. Thoughts?

It seems so although Ulema permit it under certain conditions - ie, the intercessor has no intrinsic power to help the caller.

I myself wonder how much we are subconsciously influenced by the Wahhabi school of thought which is anti graves/shrines/tawassul etc.

Furthermore, how many people do tawassul based on a ruling by a Marja'?

 

I can resonate with them to *some* extent that unfortunately some people throw themselves on graves asking for that person to help themselves directly.

But that's just part of life, some people will go through life just imitating and never understanding...

 

It's one for the Ulema although I would like to see some concise proofs - it's definitely a topic where the cards should be put on the table for the people to see.

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