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Hassan-

#29 Which country would you live in?

Poll #29  

78 members have voted

  1. 1. If the standard of living and economy of a country was acceptable, which country would you rather live in?

    • An Islamic country with a strict Shari'a system
      41
    • A secular country with no religious laws and allows people to practice their own faith.
      35


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On 3/10/2018 at 8:29 PM, Hassan- said:

Which country would you choose to live in?

I would say Iran, either in Mashhad or Qōm, but if not Iran, then Syriā by the daughter of Alī and Fatimāh (a).

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11 hours ago, lola20 said:

Then why would you trust imperfect human beings to enact Sharia law? Ideally, shouldn't you guys be waiting for the perfect Mahdi to come 

Just because humans are imperfect, it doesn't mean we just sit back and let any person rule the country. Majority of the leaders in this day and age are materialists - they only care about money, power and doing that which benefits them, not humanity at large. 

Power is very dangerous and can corrupt anyone - especially If a leader has no faith in God or accountability of his actions. The position of power must be carefully given to someone who is God-fearing and wants nothing but Justice.

Imam Ali(as) beautifully advises Malik-al-Ashtar.

"Should you be elated by power, ever feel in your mind the slightest symptoms of pride and arrogance, then look at the power and majesty of the Divine governance of the Universe over which you have absolutely no control."

Edited by ali_fatheroforphans

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On 3/11/2018 at 1:10 AM, lola20 said:

I don't believe in the Mahdi anymore.

Don't cross your line. You don't believe in our Imam then fine keep this toxic thought to yourself.

You're starting to upset me. Do you think that the Imam(atfs) Needs you?  It's the other way around, you Need Islam because without it you are going to Hell, Islam is salvation itself.

And stop wasting our time and get off of this website if you are only here to attack our religion.

Edited by ShiaChat Mod
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On 2018-03-11 at 7:14 AM, lola20 said:

To be transparent, my goal is to spread a seed of doubt, at least, about the very vicious, violent, and misogynistic aspects of the religion. 

Honestly, at this point you have lost my respect.

It is one thing if there is a strive to hold a debate regarding certain subjects or topics that you find interesting.

It is one thing if you do not agree with some of aspects of islam, or what you consider to be aspects of islam, and you wish to discuss this.

At this point, all your arguments brought forward sounds like some copy paste of a far right white racist movement that think islam is taking over their women and jobs.

There is nothing interesting or new that you have said and if we were to be so ignorant as to not study the matters and so easily believe some hate filled person, then for sure we would not need to wait for you to come here and tell us, this is the age of information.

I have, with full sincerity and care, asked you to create one thread for each one of the subjects you wish to discuss so that we may dissect the subjects and in a spirit of sincerity discuss this so that we may have clarity.

You did not do this and based on the quote from you that I have quoted above, it is safe to say that you do not seek a discussion, you seem to be hell bent that everyone is wrong except for you and now you want to make yourself feel better by repeating yourself like a broken record in hopes that someone will echo you. You do not ask in order to get answers, you do not talk in order to receive a reply.

I am really sad to see that your father and those abusers around have put you in this state of mind, but I am even more sad to see that you allow yourself to be so affected by them that you dig yourself deeper in your own grave of hatred. If you hate these abusers for what they have done/still do - just know that what your doing to yourself and what your allowing them to do to you is far worse than what they themselves have the power to do.

I will make dua for you that Allahsسُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى mercy will be greater than your arrogance and that you one day can see beyond these abusers, for sure you will find that it is not a matter of religion, its a matter of men around the world, but you will never see anything, nor hear anything, nor learn anything, if you think you know everything already, that is arrogance.

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22 minutes ago, IbnSina said:

I dont think the two options of vote are fair.

It is what it is. I assumed the question meant would you rather have government based on religious authority (like Saudi) or secular authority. If it means would you rather have laws based on Islamic morality (like Iran) or have laws based on secular morality, that's a whole different question. 

As for authority, power always corrupts. (With the only exception of infallible people.) I'd like to keep power as dispersed as possible to reduce this. 

 

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6 hours ago, notme said:

It is what it is. I assumed the question meant would you rather have government based on religious authority (like Saudi) or secular authority. If it means would you rather have laws based on Islamic morality (like Iran) or have laws based on secular morality, that's a whole different question. 

As for authority, power always corrupts. (With the only exception of infallible people.) I'd like to keep power as dispersed as possible to reduce this. 

Wait what?

@Hassan-

Can you clarify if this is what the two options are?

I fail to see how you can have a Islamic government without Islamic morality governing the government. And you can still practice your religion in a islamic country, like the jews and christians in Iran.

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16 minutes ago, IbnSina said:

Wait what?

We're all going to make our own assumptions about the questions. That's why the comments are necessary. 

17 minutes ago, IbnSina said:

I fail to see how you can have a Islamic government without Islamic morality governing the government.

Like Saudi?

17 minutes ago, IbnSina said:

And you can still practice your religion in a islamic country, like the jews and christians in Iran.

Yes. The laws are based on sharia, which doesn't prohibit people of other beliefs in society, but the authority is democratically elected.

See what I mean about two very different questions, based on two different equally valid interpretations? 

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1 hour ago, notme said:

As for authority, power always corrupts. (With the only exception of infallible people.) I'd like to keep power as dispersed as possible to reduce this. 

 Who do you believe was the last infallible human on Earth? (except for the hidden Imam that I suppose you believe in)

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1 hour ago, notme said:

Like Saudi?

I dont consider saudi a islamic country, they dont follow what I as a shia believe to be correct fiqh. If you consider them a islamic country then you also consider them to follow islam, I do not.

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5 hours ago, IbnSina said:

Wait what?

@Hassan-

Can you clarify if this is what the two options are?

I fail to see how you can have a Islamic government without Islamic morality governing the government. And you can still practice your religion in a islamic country, like the jews and christians in Iran.

The poll is hypothetical based, it doesn’t have anything to do with todays countries. The first option is a Shi’a Islamic country that implements the purest form of shari’a a fallible man can make it be. The shari’a is strict and doesn’t allow any exceptions. The second option is your average secular country that allows everyone to practice their faith freely with no religious laws.

6 hours ago, IbnSina said:

I dont think the two options of vote are fair.

In Iran people can still practice their own faiths, you have Christians and Jews.

But they still need to abide by the shari’a rules of the country. They can’t step outside without a hijab on, they can’t drink, they can’t eat pork, and etc, and since they are not Muslim they must pay tax to the government just for being non-Muslim and living in a Muslim land. 

In a secular country, everyone is treated the same with no religious laws but only secular laws.

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7 minutes ago, Hassan- said:

In a secular country, everyone is treated the same with no religious laws but only secular laws.

And if those secular laws hinders your from following your religious laws, whats the difference then?

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12 minutes ago, IbnSina said:

And if those secular laws hinders your from following your religious laws, whats the difference then?

That's why it's a choice one has to make, a country where nothing hinders you from following your religion, or a country with secular laws that may interfere with your religion but in general they allow you to believe and follow what you want.

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44 minutes ago, IbnSina said:

And if those secular laws hinders your from following your religious laws, whats the difference then?

The laws you long for were made for a primitive society long gone. Try to reinterpret. Christians have done so with great success.

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6 hours ago, notme said:

It is what it is. I assumed the question meant would you rather have government based on religious authority (like Saudi) or secular authority. If it means would you rather have laws based on Islamic morality (like Iran) or have laws based on secular morality, that's a whole different question. 

As for authority, power always corrupts. (With the only exception of infallible people.) I'd like to keep power as dispersed as possible to reduce this. 

The answer I gave was "An Islamic country with a strict Shari'a system". Saudi or any other Sunni country are not Islamic countries because they are not following the correct rules of the religion. This leaves Iran as the only correct Islamic state, but even Iran does not have a perfect system. A perfect system of an Islamic state is achieved only by an infallible, but since we don't have one present today it will be impossible. This poll is based on whether you would want to live in an imperfect Islamic country but as close to perfection as a fallible man can make it be, like Iran for example but I wouldn't consider Iran to have a strict Shari'a system, or a secular country that allows their citizens to believe and do what they want.

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1 hour ago, andres said:

The laws you long for were made for a primitive society long gone. Try to reinterpret. Christians have done so with great success.

I don’t see too much success among Christians because what they were followed before renaissance was not teaching of Jesus (pbu) ,their rule was a wrong interpretation as currently KSA has wrong interruption of Islamic law which similar to pre reneicansse of Europe,the real laws of Islam comes from Quran & teachings of Infallible Imams so is suitable from old to new but not primitive but currently not completely followed ,what most of people in western countries see as Sharia law a completely wrong interruption of Islamic Laws by Wahabist specially KSA that based on pre Islamic rules of Ignorant Arabs.

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It’s good that the majority of the members here would like to live under an Islamic establishment, while many of them have experienced living in a secular country. I think, apart from the role of ISIS and the media which have affected and tarnished the concept of Sharia law and an Islamic State, those who have voted otherwise haven’t understood the exact meaning of this poll, otherwise a Muslim wanting to live under an un-Islamic government with un-Islamic rules?! It would be bad and dangerous.

أَفَحُكْمَ الْجَاهِلِيَّةِ يَبْغُونَ ۚ وَمَنْ أَحْسَنُ مِنَ اللَّـهِ حُكْمًا لِّقَوْمٍ يُوقِنُونَ : Do they seek a judgement of the days of pagan ignorance? But who could be a better judge than God for those who are firm in their faith?

وَمَن لَّمْ يَحْكُم بِمَا أَنزَلَ اللَّـهُ فَأُولَـٰئِكَ هُمُ الْكَافِرُونَ, وَمَن لَّمْ يَحْكُم بِمَا أَنزَلَ اللَّـهُ فَأُولَـٰئِكَ هُمُ الظَّالِمُونَ, وَمَن لَّمْ يَحْكُم بِمَا أَنزَلَ اللَّـهُ فَأُولَـٰئِكَ هُمُ الْفَاسِقُونَ

http://tanzil.net/#search/quran/حکم/p3

Although we have more works to do to achieve a full and perfect Islamic establishment, I thank Allah that I was born after the Islamic Revolution ✌️ and during an Islamic establishment and not during the Jaheliah of the secular Shah era. 

On 3/11/2018 at 7:49 AM, Forgottenthinker said:

Shame on those that voted religion forced nation despite the fact almost no one here ever lived in one and most likely lives in a secular western nation. Oh the irony. . .

There may be many reasons different than what we assume why they are living in an un-Islamic country. Not everyone living in a country does it out of love and as their choice. By they way, religion is not and can't be forced on anyone. This is the law that is and can be forced. Law in every society is forced, otherwise you will face punishment. This laws in a Islamic country are Islamic and in a un-Islamic one they are un-Islamic.

----

We need someone to explain this fact that "practicing Islam in a secular country" is naturally a contradictory statement. 

Edited by kamyar

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1 hour ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

I don’t see too much success among Christians because what they were followed before renaissance was not teaching of Jesus (pbu) ,their rule was a wrong interpretation as currently KSA has wrong interruption of Islamic law which similar to pre reneicansse of Europe,the real laws of Islam comes from Quran & teachings of Infallible Imams so is suitable from old to new but not primitive but currently not completely followed ,what most of people in western countries see as Sharia law a completely wrong interruption of Islamic Laws by Wahabist specially KSA that based on pre Islamic rules of Ignorant Arabs.

Sorry. You do not know what you are talking about. If you wish to have an impression of the teaching of Jesus, you must read the New Testament. You cannot derive any of this from the Quran that was written 600 years after Jesus and has almost nothing to say about him. 

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10 minutes ago, andres said:

Sorry. You do not know what you are talking about. If you wish to haحve an impression of the teaching of Jesus, you must read the New Testament. You cannot derive any of this from the Quran that was written 600 years after Jesus and has almost nothing to say about him. 

Already new testament is older than Quran & rules at Europe are omanistic not religional if considet your logic Quran is newer than any testamention are older than Quran so they are more primitive than Quran & you are wrong about mentioning Jesus in Quran he is even more mentioned than prophet mohammad  (pbu) ,he refferd as prophet Isa (as) (عیسی (ع 

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26 minutes ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Already new testament is older than Quran & rules at Europe are omanistic not religional if considet your logic Quran is newer than any testamention are older than Quran so they are more primitive than Quran & you are wrong about mentioning Jesus in Quran he is even more mentioned than prophet mohammad  (pbu) ,he refferd as prophet Isa (as) (عیسی (ع 

The Quran is not about Jesus, and there are hardly any quotes ascribed to him. The New Testament is all about Jesus. 

It is correct that the Quran is younger than the Old and New Testament. Another difference is that while New Testament developed whem Israel was part of the Roman culture, whereas the Quran developed in an pagan Arabic tribal environmemt in the desert. 

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6 hours ago, andres said:

The laws you long for were made for a primitive society long gone. Try to reinterpret. Christians have done so with great success.

The laws I long for? I did not know you were inside my head.

You should refrain from making assumptions because it kills any form of discussion and in extend any kind of development intellectually on your behalf.

Assumptions is something you do when you do not have the opportunity to get the truth, in this case, its better to ask what I long for instead of assuming it.

I long for a society with no corruption, where justice is the only way, where oppression is no more, where the focus lies in worshiping our creator and not that which is created.

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18 minutes ago, andres said:

Such society never existed and will never exist. 

Hi what about Solomon Kingdom ,it was an example of this society & if God wants it will be exists in a large scale by Imam Mahdi (aj) & Jesus.

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