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In the Name of God بسم الله

Can't shake the paganistic rites/rituals/tradition

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Key word: culture. Most of the things you saw are Indo-Pak in origin and have nothing to do with Islam. These practices are done by ignorant people who confuse their cultural upbringing and heritage w

Salamunalaykum,  Most here know I'm a revert to the jafari school from sunni. Something that's been bothering me for the better part of a year has been what I consider paganistic influence in Shi

Rest assured, they also bother non revert born shiis, like me. I consider these practices as deviant, and thus came to the conclusion that no sect is free from deviations.

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28 minutes ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

Key word: culture. Most of the things you saw are Indo-Pak in origin and have nothing to do with Islam. These practices are done by ignorant people who confuse their cultural upbringing and heritage with Islam and being a Muslim.

Totally get that. It just bothers me because sometimes I question if I sit amongst the righteous. But I'm glad there's a degree of reassurance from fellow users. 

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14 minutes ago, AnotherShepherd said:

Totally get that. It just bothers me because sometimes I question if I sit amongst the righteous. But I'm glad there's a degree of reassurance from fellow users. 

Ask a shaykh or learned person to hear his answer if you are able to.

And about these things they are practices of people, who do these things for whatever reason. Culture, expressing themselfes. Sometimes wrong, sometimes not. And Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى knows best. We shouldn't be quick to conclude all these people and every such activities are wrong haram anti Islamic etc. 

I am not sure why this is " rubbing you the wrong way". If you know such and such are not from our religion then what is the problem ? It is not my problem. And also have you read about what Maraji3 have said about this or tatbir ? Especially if it makes our rleigon look bad and something different then what it is (about)
 

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6 minutes ago, Mohammed-Mehdi said:

Ask a shaykh or learned person to hear his answer if you are able to.

And about these things they are practices of people, who do these things for whatever reason. Culture, expressing themselfes. Sometimes wrong, sometimes not. And Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى knows best. We shouldn't be quick to conclude all these people and every such activities are wrong haram anti Islamic etc. 

I am not sure why this is " rubbing you the wrong way". If you know such and such are not from our religion then what is the problem ? It is not my problem. And also have you read about what Maraji3 have said about this or tatbir ? Especially if it makes our rleigon look bad and something different then what it is (about)
 

So I'm not trying deem anything haraam. But if such practices manifest themselves in a religious society in such a common practice, isn't it worth asking why? Isn't it worth pondering why the laymen deviate from what is more proper. I think it's akin to what Shaykh Hamza Yusuf calls the crisis of knowledge. 

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I think that what allows there pracitices to expand is the lack of condemnation from Shia clerics. For example the blood letting isn't considered self harm by most clerics but "showing love for Hussain". The more these practices are left un condemned, the more wide spread and deviated they become. Have you seen the one where Ali RA is depicted as a man in a lions costume crawling around? Complete mockery. 

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8 hours ago, AnotherShepherd said:

Salamunalaykum, 

Most here know I'm a revert to the jafari school from sunni. Something that's been bothering me for the better part of a year has been what I consider paganistic influence in Shi'i practice. On Instagram I see pictures of various cultures doing matam, crawling in mud, lighting fire apparatus, overzealous display of pictorial representations of Imams, mock coffins at majlis, the use of the hand of Fatima/panjatan etc. 

This all rubs me the wrong way. It's almost as if the Shi'i school I researched in books and listened to lectures about isn't the same one I see reflected in practice. Can anyone help me out? I think former sunnis will understand this lingering sentiment. 

Walaykum Salaam brother,

Do not be distressed, many of us are with you. These practises have nothing to do with Shia Islam, it's cultural, and among extreme groups of whatever race, such as Indo-Pakistanis who each differ because some are moderate, and some extreme, you are going to see a mixed representation. I can't speak too much for just Matam, but again i urge people to do it moderately, and not violently as you see some people lean to. I myself always stand quietly in one corner, head down, with one hand, lightly hitting my chest as a symbolic sign of grief. What i do not do is take my top of in a crowded area, where it then begins to absolutely smell as men take off their tops and violently hit their chests. Many do like i do by the way. Their inner sense of rationality allows them to do so.

Let me address some of these things one by one:

1. General crawling to shrines (may not be crawling in mud, but addressing one aspect of the problem. Again, i am against people wholesale covering themselves in mud so they look like another creature. Also, according to Ayatullah, Sayed Ali Khamanei referring to people crawling to Shrines: "There is a strange bid'ah that people have lately invented, in the method of ziyarah. As you know, all the Imams (as) used to visit the pure grave of the Prophet (pbuh) and the pure graves of the ahlulbayt (as) in Medina, Iraq and Iran; but have you ever heard that any of the Imams (as) or the scholars used to crawl upon his torso from the entrance of the shrines to the grave spot during their ziyarah? So if this act was mustahab or good in itself, then surely the great scholars would have performed it, however, they did not perform such acts. In fact, it has been mentioned that Ayatullah Burujerdi, who was a very pious scholar and leading mujtahid, and a man of pioneering ideas; forbade even the kissing of the doorstep of the shrines of any of the Imams (as).' Reference: http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-vLGUWmDDF8g/VjEy1LlaCQI/AAAAAAAAAF8/_p9HYmhHt0w/s320/uthba.png

 

On a serious note, going back to crawling in mud, who on earth thinks of the bizzare things some overzealous groups among us do, we needed another strange practise?

00011100_medium.jpeg 

 

Some Salafis are now claiming Allah has cursed us with bizarre rituals to dissuade others from joining or considering us, for our misguidance. This isn't true, because there are misguided zealots in all religions and groups.

 

2. As for pictorial representations of the Aimmah, opinion is divided to be honest. However many Shias i know have been against these rather racist, Persian depictions of our Aimmah. While a number of scholars say it is technically not impermissible so long as it is not offensive or disrespectful, this isn't the same as they approve of it or encourage it. Rather, some scholars have even come out and said it is out and out an insult to our Aimmah.  

Ayatullah Bashir Najafi :

Q & A

We often find pictures and images of the ahlul-bayt (as) as well as of Imam Abbas (as) and they are placing feathers on their turbans. Are these considered to be traditions of the Israelis?

-In the name of Allah: First of all, it should be known that Abbas (as) is the master of every believer—not an Imam. It is wrong to call every buried Sayed such as al-Qasim (as) and others with the term "Imam" and this is quite a common misconception amongst the people and it is a matter that must be paid attention to. Secondly, all images that are hand drawn and then printed out of Abu Al-Fadhil (as)—as well as of other non-infallibles—and of any one of the holy infallibles are not allowed. All these images are not taken by camera; they are a product of the imagination and are therefore unrealistic. According to my rulings, drawing them is considered to be forbidden and attributing them to the holy Imams or to any individual is an act of deception, which is a great sin. I have issued many verdicts regarding this matter. Allah know best.

These pictures look like homosexual men, to be honest, what an insult it is to have their faces look like they have make up and the like. Wallahi, Shias who support , encourage, or remain silent at things like this have to take a long hard look in the mirror. They would not accept this for their dad, but accept it for their Imams. 

muhammad-the-white-prophet-with-black-sl

 

 

As for the 'Hand of Fatima' that tends to be prevalent in indo-pak arenas,  i believe that has originated from 'Hamsa' symbols, and this i believe exists also in non-Shia communities. In and of itself there is nothing wrong with it, because it's a symbol of a hand , something universal and to signify the five purified by Allah, the Almighty. However, i'm not a fan of it. I haven't quite seen it in Iraqi centres though.

As for lighting fire apparatus, if you mean candles, i would say this has been done by many communities. Even after mass-shootings or tragedies the world over, you often see people lighting candles and bringing them together. I guess a candle is powerful symbolism, as the flame glows in the dark collectively, and that has been adopted generally. Once again, i'm not for it either.

Do watch these videos:

 

 

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8 hours ago, AnotherShepherd said:

Salamunalaykum, 

Most here know I'm a revert to the jafari school from sunni. Something that's been bothering me for the better part of a year has been what I consider paganistic influence in Shi'i practice. On Instagram I see pictures of various cultures doing matam, crawling in mud, lighting fire apparatus, overzealous display of pictorial representations of Imams, mock coffins at majlis, the use of the hand of Fatima/panjatan etc. 

This all rubs me the wrong way. It's almost as if the Shi'i school I researched in books and listened to lectures about isn't the same one I see reflected in practice. Can anyone help me out? I think former sunnis will understand this lingering sentiment. 

You will soon learn my dear brother, that Tashayyu (Shia Islam, twelve Imams) in its pure sense, through its authentic sources is nothing other than truth. However, many of these individuals who engage in questionable practises don't represent the purity of Shia Islam, and rather much of what they do is cultural. Some of it might be technically permissible, but then , rational beings will clearly see why crawling in mud, drawing effeminate pictures of our Aimmah , taking their tops off in crowded Imam-Bargahs and going full-cardio and making the place smell of sweat, full of noise and men whose chests are red-raw, is not how i think civilised human beings should practise and represent their faith. It's cultural, and our duty is to continue to speak out, if it is safe for us, which it would be online i hope.

You've chosen the right way, but cultural practise is pervasive.  Remember , one of the groups Imam al-Mahdi ajfs will go for are groups of Shias who have deviated in some of their ways. 

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7 hours ago, AnotherShepherd said:

So I'm not trying deem anything haraam. But if such practices manifest themselves in a religious society in such a common practice, isn't it worth asking why? Isn't it worth pondering why the laymen deviate from what is more proper. I think it's akin to what Shaykh Hamza Yusuf calls the crisis of knowledge. 

Drawing of the Aimmah isn't as common as you'd think, and i would hazard to say a slight or fair majority are against it, even if a number of scholars do not say it is outright impermissible - though some do.

Crawling into shrines is something a minority do, and many major scholars have spoken out against it. No doubt some will still do it, and some do it because scholars are silent or approve of it. 

Crawling into mud is a new innovation i hear about. Definitely not mainstream and the logistics of washing that out is going to drive a lot of people away from doing it. Add to how ridiculous it looks, even the biggest zealot may shy away when he realises what he is going to do is just a mockery.

Hamsah/Hand symbols exist among Sunnis too, some also have the 'eye of Fatima'. It's superstition, it's culture and i've not seen it in Iraqi centres. Personally speaking, Indo-Pakistanis who have mostly come from Hindu ancestry and have left over cultural Hindu practises will decorate these hand things with flowers , just like the Hindus do with their Idols. However it isn't exactly shirk or harram because for them it isn't God at all, just a symbolic banner they honour. Having said that, what might be permissible does not necessarily constitute best practise, especially because of the link to idols and what Hindus do.

I would personally say in some regions, it is a crisis of knowledge. In these regions you often see the most uneducated groups engage in the most bizarre practises. As people become more educated, more socially aware of the world, more cognisant and gain knowledge, they become less extreme. This isn't a direct correlation but there is a strong association.  Some groups will always retain practises, such as these Hamsah things - if you go to Iraqi centres you won't see them (as least i haven't).  If you also go to Lebanese centres, you will see even less superstition. Something similar my also be in Iranian centres as well, which will be less extreme than Indo-Pak and iraqi.

 

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People have got to sit down and realise, if the brother in the OP has done research and intellectually recognised the superiority of Shia Islam as it is purely delivered in authentic sources and derived from rational argument, but then looks at bizarre and questionable practises, some forbidden , some not forbidden but may not constitute best practise, and questions these things - as many Shia themselves do but are too afraid to speak out- what do you think the rest of the world will do?

I am against these things - most of them - on their own merits, not because i fear what people will think, but the reality is, people think as i do, and if a Shia can be put off by these things, then know many can be put off or made to lean against us because of cultural practises you all would not have even been doing three hundred years ago , let alone at the time of our Aimmah but have suddenly become 'an essential part'.

The irony. 

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Faceless/Virtual world-  ripe for the picking by the skillful

Cats have nine lives; Faceless people have infinite lives....

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http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235034962-is-fatima-as-the-proof-of-Allah-swt-over-the-imams-as/?_fromLogin=1

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إِنَّ الصَّفَا وَالْمَرْوَةَ مِنْ شَعَائِرِ اللَّهِ ۖ فَمَنْ حَجَّ الْبَيْتَ أَوِ اعْتَمَرَ فَلَا جُنَاحَ عَلَيْهِ أَنْ يَطَّوَّفَ بِهِمَا ۚ وَمَنْ تَطَوَّعَ خَيْرًا فَإِنَّ اللَّهَ شَاكِرٌ عَلِيمٌ {158}

[Pickthal 2:158] Lo! (the mountains) As-Safa and Al-Marwah are among the indications of Allah. It is therefore no sin for him who is on pilgrimage to the House (of Allah) or visiteth it, to go around them (as the pagan custom is). And he who doeth good of his own accord, (for him) lo! Allah is Responsive, Aware.

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On a serious note, going back to crawling in mud, who on earth thinks of the bizzare things some overzealous groups among us do, we needed another strange practise?

00011100_medium.jpeg 

I don't know about mud, but as for dust there is nothing wrong if ones do it for humility for Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى pleasure. The prophet Musa (as) when he did sadja in the earth, he rubbed his cheeks on the earth;

It has been reported on the authority of Imam Sadeq that God inspired Moses: O Musa! Do you know why among all my creatures, I have chosen you as interlocutor (one to whom God speaks)? Moses said: No, O my Lord! God again inspired: I did not find on the earth any one more humble than you. So, Moses prostrated, rubbed his cheeks on the earth as a sign of humility to his Lord, the Most Honored, the Most Exalted.

عَنْ أَبى عَبْدِ اللَّهِ عَلَيْهِ السَّلامُ قَالَ: أَوْحى اللَّهُ مُوسى بْنَ عِمْرانَ عَلَيْهِ السَّلامُ أَتَدْري يَا مُوسى لِمَ انْتَجَبْتُكَ مِنْ خَلْقي وَأَصْطَفيكَ لِكَلامي؟ فَقَالَ: لا يَا رَبِّ فَأَوْحَى اللَّهُ إِلَيْهِ: إِنّي اطَّلَعْتُ إِلى الأَرْضِ فَلَمْ أَجِدْ عَلَيْها أَشَدَّ تَواضُعًا لِي مِنْكَ، فَخَرَّ مُوسى سَاجِدًا وَعَفَّرَ خَدَّيْهِ بِالتّرابِ تَذَلُّلا مِنْهُ لِرَبِّهِ عَزَّ وَجَلَّ. (الخ(

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9 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

I don't know about mud, but as for dust there is nothing wrong if ones do it for humility for Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى pleasure. The prophet Musa (as) when he did sadja in the earth, he rubbed his cheeks on the earth;

It has been reported on the authority of Imam Sadeq that God inspired Moses: O Musa! Do you know why among all my creatures, I have chosen you as interlocutor (one to whom God speaks)? Moses said: No, O my Lord! God again inspired: I did not find on the earth any one more humble than you. So, Moses prostrated, rubbed his cheeks on the earth as a sign of humility to his Lord, the Most Honored, the Most Exalted.

عَنْ أَبى عَبْدِ اللَّهِ عَلَيْهِ السَّلامُ قَالَ: أَوْحى اللَّهُ مُوسى بْنَ عِمْرانَ عَلَيْهِ السَّلامُ أَتَدْري يَا مُوسى لِمَ انْتَجَبْتُكَ مِنْ خَلْقي وَأَصْطَفيكَ لِكَلامي؟ فَقَالَ: لا يَا رَبِّ فَأَوْحَى اللَّهُ إِلَيْهِ: إِنّي اطَّلَعْتُ إِلى الأَرْضِ فَلَمْ أَجِدْ عَلَيْها أَشَدَّ تَواضُعًا لِي مِنْكَ، فَخَرَّ مُوسى سَاجِدًا وَعَفَّرَ خَدَّيْهِ بِالتّرابِ تَذَلُّلا مِنْهُ لِرَبِّهِ عَزَّ وَجَلَّ. (الخ(

I have nothing against dust per-say but wholesale jumping into mud and having it layer your entire body in the manner depicted in the pictures, is really questionable. 

A bit if dust rubbed onto cheeks is fine in my view.

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1 hour ago, Intellectual Resistance said:

Walaykum Salaam brother,

Do not be distressed, many of us are with you. These practises have nothing to do with Shia Islam, it's cultural, and among extreme groups of whatever race, such as Indo-Pakistanis who each differ because some are moderate, and some extreme, you are going to see a mixed representation. I can't speak too much for just Matam, but again i urge people to do it moderately, and not violently as you see some people lean to. I myself always stand quietly in one corner, head down, with one hand, lightly hitting my chest as a symbolic sign of grief. What i do not do is take my top of in a crowded area, where it then begins to absolutely smell as men take off their tops and violently hit their chests. Many do like i do by the way. Their inner sense of rationality allows them to do so.

Let me address some of these things one by one:

1. General crawling to shrines (may not be crawling in mud, but addressing one aspect of the problem. Again, i am against people wholesale covering themselves in mud so they look like another creature. Also, according to Ayatullah, Sayed Ali Khamanei referring to people crawling to Shrines: "There is a strange bid'ah that people have lately invented, in the method of ziyarah. As you know, all the Imams (as) used to visit the pure grave of the Prophet (pbuh) and the pure graves of the ahlulbayt (as) in Medina, Iraq and Iran; but have you ever heard that any of the Imams (as) or the scholars used to crawl upon his torso from the entrance of the shrines to the grave spot during their ziyarah? So if this act was mustahab or good in itself, then surely the great scholars would have performed it, however, they did not perform such acts. In fact, it has been mentioned that Ayatullah Burujerdi, who was a very pious scholar and leading mujtahid, and a man of pioneering ideas; forbade even the kissing of the doorstep of the shrines of any of the Imams (as).' Reference: http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-vLGUWmDDF8g/VjEy1LlaCQI/AAAAAAAAAF8/_p9HYmhHt0w/s320/uthba.png

 

On a serious note, going back to crawling in mud, who on earth thinks of the bizzare things some overzealous groups among us do, we needed another strange practise?

00011100_medium.jpeg 

 

Some Salafis are now claiming Allah has cursed us with bizarre rituals to dissuade others from joining or considering us, for our misguidance. This isn't true, because there are misguided zealots in all religions and groups.

 

2. As for pictorial representations of the Aimmah, opinion is divided to be honest. However many Shias i know have been against these rather racist, Persian depictions of our Aimmah. While a number of scholars say it is technically not impermissible so long as it is not offensive or disrespectful, this isn't the same as they approve of it or encourage it. Rather, some scholars have even come out and said it is out and out an insult to our Aimmah.  

Ayatullah Bashir Najafi :

Q & A

We often find pictures and images of the ahlul-bayt (as) as well as of Imam Abbas (as) and they are placing feathers on their turbans. Are these considered to be traditions of the Israelis?

-In the name of Allah: First of all, it should be known that Abbas (as) is the master of every believer—not an Imam. It is wrong to call every buried Sayed such as al-Qasim (as) and others with the term "Imam" and this is quite a common misconception amongst the people and it is a matter that must be paid attention to. Secondly, all images that are hand drawn and then printed out of Abu Al-Fadhil (as)—as well as of other non-infallibles—and of any one of the holy infallibles are not allowed. All these images are not taken by camera; they are a product of the imagination and are therefore unrealistic. According to my rulings, drawing them is considered to be forbidden and attributing them to the holy Imams or to any individual is an act of deception, which is a great sin. I have issued many verdicts regarding this matter. Allah know best.

These pictures look like homosexual men, to be honest, what an insult it is to have their faces look like they have make up and the like. Wallahi, Shias who support , encourage, or remain silent at things like this have to take a long hard look in the mirror. They would not accept this for their dad, but accept it for their Imams. 

muhammad-the-white-prophet-with-black-sl

 

 

As for the 'Hand of Fatima' that tends to be prevalent in indo-pak arenas,  i believe that has originated from 'Hamsa' symbols, and this i believe exists also in non-Shia communities. In and of itself there is nothing wrong with it, because it's a symbol of a hand , something universal and to signify the five purified by Allah, the Almighty. However, i'm not a fan of it. I haven't quite seen it in Iraqi centres though.

As for lighting fire apparatus, if you mean candles, i would say this has been done by many communities. Even after mass-shootings or tragedies the world over, you often see people lighting candles and bringing them together. I guess a candle is powerful symbolism, as the flame glows in the dark collectively, and that has been adopted generally. Once again, i'm not for it either.

Do watch these videos:

 

 

People will use whatever, will work for that topic. But in reality there real opinion about these Jurists - Adhan. 

Marketing 101

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10 hours ago, AnotherShepherd said:

Salamunalaykum, 

Most here know I'm a revert to the jafari school from sunni. Something that's been bothering me for the better part of a year has been what I consider paganistic influence in Shi'i practice. On Instagram I see pictures of various cultures doing matam, crawling in mud, lighting fire apparatus, overzealous display of pictorial representations of Imams, mock coffins at majlis, the use of the hand of Fatima/panjatan etc. 

This all rubs me the wrong way. It's almost as if the Shi'i school I researched in books and listened to lectures about isn't the same one I see reflected in practice. Can anyone help me out? I think former sunnis will understand this lingering sentiment. 

Salaam brother,

I have nothing but the utmost respect for all reverts. As far as I am concerned, the spiritual courage it takes one to revert is second to none.

There was a time that I was very anti-culturist and wanted a pure form of azadari until I came to the realization that azadari is completely cultural and that is a good thing. Every culture, ethnicity, region, etc observe azadari in their own way and they should all be considered acceptable.

From your list, only the depiction of Imams is haram; nothing else is.

Matam - came from arabs
crawling in mud - persian influence. If I remember correctly, it was started by some Persian King (Nader Shah may be) who was remoreful over something he did; he had a golden leash made, wore it around his neck and crawled to Imam Hussain (as) shrine.
lighting fire - never seen it
mock coffins - indo/pak thing. Started when a King in India couldn't go for ziarah to Mashad or Karbala (I don't remember) and the head Scholar suggest to make a taziah and offer condolences locally.
Hand/Panjetan - not sure when it started but I have seen spears, or nothing at the top of flags as well.

Nothing in azadari is wajib as such everything we do is cultural but I think this pluralism (diversity) is our strength and not our weakness.

For example, if you go to Karbala for Arbaeen, you will find people who

  • simply walk with their hands beside themselves
  • walk with their hands on their chest
  • walk while beating their chest
  • walk while slapping their cheeks
  • walk while slapping their thigs
  • walk while slapping their heads

Who is right above? None of them? All of them? All 25 million could fight over the correct way of mouring for Hussain (as) or simply do what they think is right and not question the rest.

People want to strip everything out of azadari. What will we be left with? Make no mistake that only 2 things have ensured the survival of shia islam - our scholars and our azadari.

This is a reminder to all shia - born and reverts: We are servants of azadari and not its owners. As such, we should simply bow our heads and do what we can without passing judgement on others. Our esteemed marajae are the caretakers of azadari. Their job is to tell us what is permissible within the boundaries of azadari and what is not. So unless they deem a practice unacceptable, it is not for us to call it unacceptable. We are servants of azadari.

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10 hours ago, AnotherShepherd said:

I'm a revert to the jafari school from sunni. Something that's been bothering me for the better part of a year has been what I consider paganistic influence in Shi'i practice.

When you wrote Jafari School - made me understand what could be your issue. Practices / Islamic acts prayers, faster  and extreme focus on Jurisprudencial issues and seeing things in its light etc..and let's be real that its in the DNA- genetic to be judgemental of other's practices. So, you will need to rearrange the genetic composition and you will be relived of what  has been bothering you.It will take time, as with any habit. Understand the Faith part of our religion. 

Focus on that, and it has levels and with each level you will see things with greater clarity. Jews made the mistake of having only Fiqhi(jurisprudence) Knowledge but lacked Marfat.( Understanding).

Leave Azadari for now. It will take you sometime. 

I am a layman, my personal opinion. 

 

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On 3/9/2018 at 1:25 AM, Gaius I. Caesar said:

Key word: culture. Most of the things you saw are Indo-Pak in origin and have nothing to do with Islam. These practices are done by ignorant people who confuse their cultural upbringing and heritage with Islam and being a Muslim.

Salaam Brother. You know how much I love and respect you. It is a mistake to call azadari practices ignorant unless you have delved into its deeper meaning. Outside of the pictures, nothing the brother mentioned is impermissible in Islam.

Please keep in mind that as Shia, we are allowed to do everything unless it is expressly forbidden. Wahabis forbid everything unless it is deemed expressly permissible.

Plus most of the practices the brother mentioned did not originate in the Indo-Pak region.

On 3/9/2018 at 1:44 AM, realizm said:

:salam:

Rest assured, they also bother non revert born shiis, like me.

I consider these practices as deviant, and thus came to the conclusion that no sect is free from deviations.

Pictures are deviant because they are against sharia. Rest can't be deviant because they ar enot regulated under sharia.

On 3/9/2018 at 2:26 AM, AnotherShepherd said:

So I'm not trying deem anything haraam. But if such practices manifest themselves in a religious society in such a common practice, isn't it worth asking why? Isn't it worth pondering why the laymen deviate from what is more proper. I think it's akin to what Shaykh Hamza Yusuf calls the crisis of knowledge. 

The thing is that there is no exact way of doing azadari. What I may find wrong, others may find right. Another simple example, indo-pak folks almost always make biryani for Arabeen. Arabs make something else. Iranians may make A'ash or Kaleh Pacheh . Which dish is more appropriate? All of them and yet they are all different.

19 hours ago, Intellectual Resistance said:

People have got to sit down and realise, if the brother in the OP has done research and intellectually recognised the superiority of Shia Islam as it is purely delivered in authentic sources and derived from rational argument, but then looks at bizarre and questionable practises, some forbidden , some not forbidden but may not constitute best practise, and questions these things - as many Shia themselves do but are too afraid to speak out- what do you think the rest of the world will do?

I am against these things - most of them - on their own merits, not because i fear what people will think, but the reality is, people think as i do, and if a Shia can be put off by these things, then know many can be put off or made to lean against us because of cultural practises you all would not have even been doing three hundred years ago , let alone at the time of our Aimmah but have suddenly become 'an essential part'.

The irony. 

Shias are stronger today that we've ever been. Could it be because of our strong culture enriched with azadari? How can you mock or revile something which could be the source of our very existence. As I have said before, our marajae and our azadari is what has ensured our survival.

Irony is when shias want to destroy the very thing that has ensured our survival. Sure enough, not all at one but piece by piece, little by little...just like termites.

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11 hours ago, shiaman14 said:

Salaam Brother. You know how much I love and respect you. It is a mistake to call azadari practices ignorant unless you have delved into its deeper meaning. Outside of the pictures, nothing the brother mentioned is impermissible in Islam.

Please keep in mind that as Shia, we are allowed to do everything unless it is expressly forbidden. Wahabis forbid everything unless it is deemed expressly permissible.

Plus most of the practices the brother mentioned did not originate in the Indo-Pak region.

Pictures are deviant because they are against sharia. Rest can't be deviant because they ar enot regulated under sharia.

The thing is that there is no exact way of doing azadari. What I may find wrong, others may find right. Another simple example, indo-pak folks almost always make biryani for Arabeen. Arabs make something else. Iranians may make A'ash or Kaleh Pacheh . Which dish is more appropriate? All of them and yet they are all different.

Shias are stronger today that we've ever been. Could it be because of our strong culture enriched with azadari? How can you mock or revile something which could be the source of our very existence. As I have said before, our marajae and our azadari is what has ensured our survival.

Irony is when shias want to destroy the very thing that has ensured our survival. Sure enough, not all at one but piece by piece, little by little...just like termites.

Are you saying the only reason Shias exist today is because of innovations and pagan practices? Hmmmm

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3 hours ago, shiaman14 said:

Salaam Brother. You know how much I love and respect you. It is a mistake to call azadari practices ignorant unless you have delved into its deeper meaning. Outside of the pictures, nothing the brother mentioned is impermissible in Islam.

Of course, I understand this and have looked into the deeper meaning enough to deem it ignorant. The intention may not be ignorant but if some of these practices have origins outside of Islam, then it is ignorant to claim these as Islamic. I have doubts with mud crawling, Panjetan, hitting yourself until you bleed/tatbir and barking like a dog. I don't like the Hamsa or hand of Fatima, it is clearly of pagan origins. Nothing wrong with crying or slapping yourself lightly.

Edited by Gaius I. Caesar
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In Iran putting mud on body is sign of great grief  for martyrdom of Imam Hussain (as) that pure mud mixes with rose water but don’t crawl on it in big cities like as Tehran people put mud mostly on hair & face.

& mostly practices in Lorestan ,Khoramabad Abad province   

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https://www.mehrnews.com/news/4101562/گل-مالی-روایتی-از-عمق-اندوه-عاشورا-عشقی-که-از-آب-وخاک-می-روید

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https://fa.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/گل‌مالی

 

Edited by Ashvazdanghe
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go to amazon and order your self a hula hoop. Hopefully that should help you alleviate your other problems and not using such customs as an excuse for whatever challenges you are facing in life. Consider the mud crawlers thinks he is on the right path, the tatbir person the same and here you are, thinking you are right.

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13 hours ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

Of course, I understand this and have looked into the deeper meaning enough to deem it ignorant. The intention may not be ignorant but if some of these practices have origins outside of Islam, then it is ignorant to claim these as Islamic. I have doubts with mud crawling, Panjetan, hitting yourself until you bleed/tatbir and barking like a dog. I don't like the Hamsa or hand of Fatima, it is clearly of pagan origins. Nothing wrong with crying or slapping yourself lightly.

mud crawling I mentioned was from Persia.

What's wrong with the hand?

We tend to blame everything on the indo-pak when most of the things the brother mentioned are not even from there.

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8 hours ago, Sunni Maliki said:

Are you saying the only reason Shias exist today is because of innovations and pagan practices? Hmmmm

I am saying that Sunnis have tried their darnest to wipe out the shia and yet here we are. While we may be in a minority, haqq usually is.

A famous Japanese author once said, "The Shia can never be broken - they spend their entire life remembering Hussain and awaiting the Mahdi"

Lastly, I have been on the record for a long time that I couldnt care less what any Sunni thinks of azadari. You go solve suicide bombing the killing of innocent people and islamic terrorism; leave mourning of Hussain to us.

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21 minutes ago, shiaman14 said:

I am saying that Sunnis have tried their darnest to wipe out the shia and yet here we are. While we may be in a minority, haqq usually is.

A famous Japanese author once said, "The Shia can never be broken - they spend their entire life remembering Hussain and awaiting the Mahdi"

Lastly, I have been on the record for a long time that I couldnt care less what any Sunni thinks of azadari. You go solve suicide bombing the killing of innocent people and islamic terrorism; leave mourning of Hussain to us.

I sense negativity but any how. The last time I checked the only thing keeping Shiism alive is Iran and Taqiyya. It's no coincidence that every Shia has an Iranian uncle. And as for Suicide bombings, those too come from the Shia Hezbollah who thought Hamas how to blow themselves up while they where hiding in the mountains. Mourning to most logical people doesn't consist of walking over hot coal, crawling and barking like dogs and whacking yourself with a sword. Inshallah you will find your common sense and abandon these satanic practices. 

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Don't Mind Brother but :

On 3/9/2018 at 5:19 PM, shiaman14 said:

I am saying that Sunnis have tried their darnest to wipe out the shia and yet here we are. While we may be in a minority, haqq usually is.

Ibadis are even more smaller in Number than Shias.

On 3/9/2018 at 5:19 PM, shiaman14 said:

A famous Japanese author once said, "The Shia can never be broken - they spend their entire life remembering Hussain and awaiting the Mahdi"

Wait What !! ?? :hahaha: Can you please tell me Who is the Mahdi of Shias? Dajjal?  [Mod Note: Warned & suspended for six days.]

On 3/9/2018 at 5:19 PM, shiaman14 said:

Lastly, I have been on the record for a long time that I couldnt care less what any Sunni thinks of azadari. You go solve suicide bombing the killing of innocent people and islamic terrorism; leave mourning of Hussain to us.

I don't know about you but I only saw you caring about Suicide Bombing all the time :D MAN !. What about Sunni Killed by Shias in Syria and Yemen ???

But You have to believe it Sunnis have always been in forefront when it comes saving Islam. History proves that Sunnis always saved Islam in Hard times while Shias always caused problems. Read the History of Shias of Awad Nawab in Indian Subcontinent. Read Real History of Safavid Dynasty. 

Shias, Obsessed with world Domination. Don't know who their Mahdi is ??? :D :hahaha: 

Edited by Hameedeh
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1 hour ago, shiaman14 said:

What's wrong with the hand?

It's from Pre-Islamic Arabia, it has pagan origins.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamsa

Quote

Early use of the hamsa has been traced to ancient Mesopotamia (modern-day Iraq) as well as ancient Carthage[citation needed] (modern day Tunisia). A universal sign of protection, the image of the open right hand is seen in Mesopotamian artifacts in the amulets of the goddess Ishtar or Inanna.[2]Other symbols of divine protection based around the hand include the Hand-of-Venus (or Aphrodite), the Hand-of-Mary, that was used to protect women from the evil eye and/or boost fertility and lactation, promote healthy pregnancies and strengthen the weak.[2] In that time, women were under immense pressure and expectation to become mothers.[8] The woman's upbringing was centered on becoming a mother as an exclusive role, and it indicated child bearing as necessary.[9] It was also thought that marriage was a sense of protection for both the man and the woman.[10] In Jewish culture, the hamsa is associated with the number five because of the five fingers depicted on the hand.[11]

One theory postulates a connection between the khamsa and the Mano Pantea (or Hand-of-the-All-Goddess), an amulet known to ancient Egyptians as the Two Fingers. In this amulet, the Two Fingers represent Isis and Osirisand the thumb, their child Horus and it was used to invoke the protective spirits of parents over their child.[2] Another theory traces the origins of the hamsa to Carthage (Phoenicia, modern Tunisia) where the hand (or in some cases vulva) of the supreme deity Tanit was used to ward off the evil eye.[12]According to Bruno Barbatti, at that time this motive was the most important sign of apotropaic magic in the Islamic world, though many modern representations continue to show an obvious origin from sex symbolism.

This relates to the belief that God exists in everything. Another meaning of this symbol relates to the sky god, Horus. It refers to the eye of Horus, which means humans cannot escape from the eye of conscience. It says that the sun and moon are the eyes of Horus. The Hand of Fatima also represents femininity, and is referred as the woman's holy hand. It is believed to have extraordinary characteristics that can protect people from evil and other dangers.[13]

^^^^^

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Just a few comments to some of the respected brothers who have responded to me:

I personally do believe that was it technically permissible and impermissible lays on the feet of our scholars. However, i must emphasise that when they make jurisprudential rulings, something that is technically permissible does not necessarily mean it constitutes best practise. Someone who has questionable morals , or a woman with such morals, could technically engage in a temporary marriage with several men so long as she does not consummate it, one after the other. No self-respecting woman is going to do that, but what can be technically done as permissible does not always mean it is best practise. Another example is if a man had temporary marriage with a woman while travelling , he actually doesn't have to provide for her during her pregnancy according to some rulings, which most of us can see, what is technically permissible to do doesn't actually constitute best practise.  When jurists give their rulings, they do so on their own objective set of principles. They aren't passing judgement on what is probably best practise. They are just telling you on paper, if something is permissible or if it is not.

Now, let us put Tatbir/Self-mutilation aside, because i don't want this thread to be locked and the OP didn't discuss that, and given a lot of scholars have spoken out against it. With these other lesser known issues, for example, like people literally crawling to shrines, some even barking , Ay.Khamanei has deemed it a strange innovation, and has spoken out against it. There are scholars who have spoken out against drawing our Aimmah. Of course, it might not be technically forbidden or impermissible in the eyes of some other scholars, but again, ask yourself if it is right to draw a picture of someone you have no idea what he truly looked like, and then claim this is a representation? It isn't respectful, it isn't even necessary, and on top of that as i have shown in the original post, it's a mockery, and often radicalised and irano-centric. Ask yourself why these so-called drawings won't depict the later imams as dark skinned, which we know they were? Or Imam Mahdi ajfs as certainly of a dark complexion? Why are they drawn like drag-queens who look Iranian, or white? That's utterly disrespectful, and at best not necessary.

A lot of these recent innovations (whether you believe its a good innovation, a neutral one or a bad one) have only existed in recent centuries. Shia Islam has survived because of the dedication of our Aimmah asws, especially during the time of Imam Muhammed al-Baqir and Jaffer as-Sadiq (asws) who propagated the key tennants of tashayyu to the a wider audience and have allowed us to have a lot of material to work on. That, and the sacrifice of all of the other Masumeen, no doubt, and the one with the biggest influence who brought this religion being none other than the Messenger of Allah (saw). It survived because of the endless dedication by some of the companions of our Aimmah (asws), some of the later ones of the later imams especially such as Hisham b.Hakam, Hisham b. Salim, Zuara b.Ayn among others who most Shias do not even know.  It was preserved and protected by the dedication of our Salafi, and our pious scholars of old, from Shaykh al-Kulayni (ra), Shaykh as-Saduq (ra), Shaykh al-Mufid (ra), Shaykh Tusi (ra) and other great scholars, many of whom paid the price for this in some way.  For centuries, in fact, even a millennia, we didn't have practises like Tatbir, like rolling around in thick mud, like having the Hamsa pagan symbol on wooden poles in Indo-Pakistani centres wrapped in garlands of flowers like the Hindus wrap their idols. We didn't have people taking their shirts off and hitting their chests red-raw, we didn't have people crawling, some even barking, some even going on their stomachs. All of these are relatively recent innovations. Shia Islam has survived because of the dedication of our Masumeen, their companions, scholars, pious followers, and the fact our strength lies in the most logical, most intuitive, well evidenced understanding of Islam on this planet. Not modern day innovations that whole-sale drive so many people away from actually realising that.

There is no doubt, overall, the act of mourning and remembering the suffering of the Aimmah and Prophet (saw) is a meritorious deed, especially Imam al-Hussain (asws). Lectures in his name, poetry, even light chest beating are absolutely fine. However when we start to get colourful and bizarre, and even sometimes barbaric with some of the rituals we do in his name, it harms more than helps, and on top of that, it is not Azadari, or the core of Azadari done for a millennia. 

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I firmly disagree with Sunni Aqeedah but one thing i have got to give them credit for is that they have at least retained the flawed Islam they inherited - generally speaking. Shias on the other hand - minorities all over the place , have introduced really bizarre things that have become widely adopted, and have inherited pure Islam but minorities within each culture have always sought to make things colourful, shall we say, and have hijacked the core of the message.

I believe truth-seeking individuals that can step out of the constraints of culture, and reflect on this with a clear mind will see we are better off without these recently newly invented practises.

Azadari, and mourning for Imam al-Hussain is not rolling in the mud, whipping oneself with chains or blades, cutting the scalp of ones child, taking your top of and hitting your chest violently red-raw in a very packed room with other men which leads to the entire room smelling of body odour,  crawling and or barking to shrines, covering yourself in an inch of thick mud all over your body after jumping and rolling around in mud (unfortunately some people have likened it to the behaviour of pigs). When we invent bizarre things and then attach it to Imam al-Hussain (as) and claim we do it in his name, it's just untenable. Unfortunately OP, i know from reliable sources that in some more-extreme Iraqi centres, women gather together (some) in circles and literally walk around in a circle flipping their head up and down so that hair flies up and down. Alhamdullilah i'm a male, because if i was a sister looking at something like that, it would frighten me, and is similar to what we see tribes do in exorcisms or their dances to summon spirits. 

Azadari is remembering his grief, his sacrifice, but then remember what it is he sacrificed for. He sacrificed for Islam, for pure Tawheed, for pure Sunnah, for higher moral values, higher ethics, to speak justice against injustice. Azadari is not turning his sacrifice into a cult. The time has to come where we stand up and say, yes, even doing summersaults in your front garden and telling 'Ya Hussain' is technically permissible, but does that harm or hurt , more than it helps ? When we exercise common sense and reign in on chaos and newly invented practises propping up all over the place, it's just going to be a bizarre cult-like behaviour we see among some minorities among us.

Edited by Intellectual Resistance
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OP, if you want to avoid most of these practises, try going to Lebanese centres, followed by UK-based Iranian centres. There are far less bizarre practises going on in these centres than some other ones but again, some might have them.

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2 hours ago, Shah Khan said:

Don't Mind Brother but :

Ibadis are even more smaller in Number than Shias.

Wait What !! ?? :hahaha: Can you please tell me Who is the Mahdi of Shias? Dajjal?

I don't know about you but I only saw you caring about Suicide Bombing all the time :D MAN !. What about Sunni Killed by Shias in Syria and Yemen ???

But You have to believe it Sunnis have always been in forefront when it comes saving Islam. History proves that Sunnis always saved Islam in Hard times while Shias always caused problems. Read the History of Shias of Awad Nawab in Indian Subcontinent. Read Real History of Safavid Dynasty. 

Shias, Obsessed with world Domination. Don't know who their Mahdi is ??? :D :hahaha:

First rule of trying to put someone down - it has to make sense. 

If you are comparing the brutal history of sunni atrocities committed against the shia to the handful of sunnis killed by shia, then you are simply ignorant about Islamic history. Come and discuss this topic of you ever find the shia building a wall using sunni blood for mortar.

Islamic terrorism could be eradicated if all sunnis spent as much time rejecting Wahabi terrorism instead of worrying about azadari.

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1 hour ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

It's from Pre-Islamic Arabia, it has pagan origins.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamsa

^^^^^

I think the hand on the flag is a symbolism for Hz Abbas (as) and not the Hamsa. Looks same though.

Keep in mind the Alam aka flag is a universal system of representation. 

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