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In the Name of God بسم الله

Can't shake the paganistic rites/rituals/tradition

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2 hours ago, kirtc said:

out of all the mentioned.. I think only tatbir is present in lebanon..

and honestly I have seen enough to judge the type of people that do it.. I dont know about other countries but here it is haraket amal, these guys are thugs that are known to be thieves and extortionists. I saw manly women walking down ashura like wearing baggy jeans with their head bleading.. i even saw a pregnant lady that cut her head.. these people only become shia in ashura.. I saw one try to steal the sadaka box... 

these guys are only about show and clinging to an identity and trying to show everyone they are tough.. funny thing is none of them go to syria to fight.

You know what kind of people enlisted in early Islam. From different backgrounds and with different kind of baggage. Some accepted after the fall of Mecca. We do not have an issue with that, they were  supposed to be reformed,shown the straight path and its takes time and habits change over time. (not suitable given the Top or the strategic posts).

Azadari is a kind of a halfway house, and one of the reason it can't be managed ( except for some blatant violation of the establish clear Law,) so called muslims, from various backgrounds and pasts, cultures, societies, family backgrounds, their current profession or lifestyle may be not what you would like, non muslims, hindu, christian, jews, non believers come to the Aza. These are guest of Son of Fatima Az Zahra(sa), we treat them with utmost respect. They are honored guests. May be they will find a way, from the Azadari / Husania programs and rituals to the Mosque.  They may express their love and grief in different ways, write poems based on their cultural and social background

Their love of Human Values/Sacrifice for Humanity brings them to these events. They understand this was a war between humanity and inhumanity. A good starting point. 

*****

"When they set out to leave, the people [with Hurr] prevented them from going. So al-Husayn (as) said to Hurr: “May your mother mourn for your death! What do you want?!”

He replied: “By Allah! If any of the Arabs other than you were to say that to me even though he were in the same situation as you, I would not leave him without mentioning his mother being deprived of him, whoever he might be. But -by Allah- there is no way for me to mention your mother except by [saying] the best things possible!”48

https://www.al-islam.org/event-taff-earliest-historical-account-tragedy-karbala-abu-mikhnaf/stations-way-kufah#dhu-husam

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Key word: culture. Most of the things you saw are Indo-Pak in origin and have nothing to do with Islam. These practices are done by ignorant people who confuse their cultural upbringing and heritage w

Salamunalaykum,  Most here know I'm a revert to the jafari school from sunni. Something that's been bothering me for the better part of a year has been what I consider paganistic influence in Shi

Rest assured, they also bother non revert born shiis, like me. I consider these practices as deviant, and thus came to the conclusion that no sect is free from deviations.

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3 hours ago, kirtc said:

out of all the mentioned.. I think only tatbir is present in lebanon..

and honestly I have seen enough to judge the type of people that do it.. I dont know about other countries but here it is haraket amal, these guys are thugs that are known to be thieves and extortionists. I saw manly women walking down ashura like wearing baggy jeans with their head bleading.. i even saw a pregnant lady that cut her head.. these people only become shia in ashura.. I saw one try to steal the sadaka box... 

these guys are only about show and clinging to an identity and trying to show everyone they are tough.. funny thing is none of them go to syria to fight.

If you are specifically talking about tatbiris then I know people who perform tatbir and also do not miss Namaz e Shab. Some of them are really very pious. They neither take namaz lightly nor will you get an equivalent azadar anywhere. So it's a bad idea to generalize like this. 

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1 hour ago, S.M.H.A. said:

When they set out to leave, the people [with Hurr] prevented them from going. So al-Husayn (as) said to Hurr: “May your mother mourn for your death! What do you want?!”

He replied: “By Allah! If any of the Arabs other than you were to say that to me even though he were in the same situation as you, I would not leave him without mentioning his mother being deprived of him, whoever he might be. But -by Allah- there is no way for me to mention your mother except by [saying] the best things possible!”48

yea.. we all mourn. tell me where it says you have to mourn in that way.

@Sirius_Bright

sure, I didnt say all... and I know you guys will keep defending it most probably because you saw someone in your family doing it and think they cant be wrong..  but in the end it down to what marja you follow.

so maybe you guys are right only Allah swt knows.. according to our marja it is haram and you could take it up with him.

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1. It is necessary for a Muslim to believe in the fundamentals of faith on the basis of proof and he cannot follow anyone in this respect i.e. he cannot accept he word of another with regard to the fundamentals without demanding proof.

However, in order to act on Islamic code (except in those matters which are considered by all to be indisputable e.g. the obligatory nature of the five daily prayers, fasting during the holy month of Ramadan etc.) a person must adopt one of the following methods:

https://www.al-islam.org/islamic-laws-ayatullah-abul-qasim-al-khui/taqlid

In General , Rulings on All Obligatory Acts are listed  in the Jurists Islamic Law Books. 

Najaf, Iraq

Grand Ayatullah Sayyid Ali Husaini Sistani

http://www.sistani.org/english/

 

Grand Ayatullah Sheikh Basheer Hussain Al-Najafi

http://www.alnajafi.org/messages/164-imamaliwiladat2012.htm

 

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Grand Ayatollah Sayyid Ali Hosseini Khamenei

http://www.leader.ir/en

 

Qum, Iran

Ayatullah al-ᶜUzma Shaykh Husayn Vahid Khorasani

http://wahidkhorasani.com/English

 

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4 hours ago, kirtc said:

yea.. we all mourn. tell me where it says you have to mourn in that way.

 

I have no comment on how other Azadar of Son of Sayeda Fatima Az Zahra(sa) show their Love/pay allegiance to the Imam of their time.

That is between you and Sayeda Fatima Az Zahra(sa).

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On 3/9/2018 at 6:05 AM, AnotherShepherd said:

Salamunalaykum, 

Most here know I'm a revert to the jafari school from sunni. Something that's been bothering me for the better part of a year has been what I consider paganistic influence in Shi'i practice. On Instagram I see pictures of various cultures doing matam, crawling in mud, lighting fire apparatus, overzealous display of pictorial representations of Imams, mock coffins at majlis, the use of the hand of Fatima/panjatan etc. 

This all rubs me the wrong way. It's almost as if the Shi'i school I researched in books and listened to lectures about isn't the same one I see reflected in practice. Can anyone help me out? I think former sunnis will understand this lingering sentiment. 

I feel the same way. 

 

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It is rather unfortunate that what ought to be a sober, controlled, and sensible discussion often leads to sarcasm, personal attacks and the like. If we are here, out of real sincerity, to discuss a rather important issue, then the least we should be doing is addressing points, and nothing more or less.  Remember, when ego (personal biases, grudges, not wanting to admit fault) overshadow making and evaluating points, this does not become a medium to seek truth - or be informed - but rather a vessel for a show of ego on all sides, personal attacks, and what is honestly an enormous waste of time. This is an internet forum, we are Shias, minority within minorities, and most of us have many issues to tackle and deal with in real life. It's incredible petty to put aside maturity and descend into behaviour like that.

Nevertheless, i will make one last attempt and responding to posts on here. After that, i am going to be leaving the discussion because i feel i will have made a good case for what position i am coming from. Fortunately, my posts are only arguments and conclusions based on those arguments, or critiques of other peoples arguments, and not personal attacks, twisting words and the like. 

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9 hours ago, Panzerwaffe said:

My question to both sunni and shia

 

Can we subtract Arab cultural customs and norms  of 7th to 8th century from Islam? 

 

I think we can.

The arab custom is not sacred, there were prophets of other customs and backgrounds, and they were still on the correct path.

For example, we must work hard to realise that being Muslim is not wearing a nice white dishdasha, but wearing what is nice and modest. 

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23 hours ago, shiaman14 said:

Brother - I am not advocating any practice. I am advocating people's right to practice azadari within the boundaries prescribed by our marajae. 

For example, Iraqis do ashura plays during ashura and arbaeen. I am from Pakistan so I find this different but if that is how they choose to remember Hussain, then it is not my place to insult and revile them.

Secular example - Koreans find it normal to eat dogs; westerns reject it; Muslims reject it.

So normal is very subjective and different from culture to culture, region to region, ethnicity to ethnicity.

Wouldn't it be better if all of us just served azadari instead of dictating how we think it should be? 

I have to say, this is a load of nonsense.

No one would behave this way if they were mourning a loved one, eg if ones child or parent died are you telling me they would dress up and do a play? Or start hitting their heads with a sword? Its just completely fake. No culture does this.

This is not "cultural" expression, this is just ignorant people doing things they think is right out of utter ignorance. 

We need to clamp down on it where ever we see it and call it out as an insult to people who are sincere. 

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6 hours ago, kirtc said:

and I know you guys will keep defending it most probably because you saw someone in your family doing it and think they cant be wrong.. 

Again you are generalizing. You have ilme ghaib? 

6 hours ago, kirtc said:

but in the end it down to what marja you follow

Thanks. 

6 hours ago, kirtc said:

according to our marja it is haram and you could take it up with him.

I don't need to take it to a maraja I don't emulate.  

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9 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

The whole practice ends after Ashura anyway, let's go back to our normal life.

Salam  no the Ashura & Arbaeen is peak of it but we must always remember it all of the year 

as Imam Khomeini (ra) said :every day is Ashura & every land is Karbala.

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I begin in the name of Allah, the beneficent, the merciful. Salamualaykum brother, i hope my response can focus purely on legitimate points made and maybe you can see better where i am coming from. As i have said before, this will be my last contribution on this thread, and i sincerely hope mere disagreement on an issue should not be a driving force for grudges to form, or enmity. I may disagree with you, but my doors will remain open for a friendly, respectful, and peaceful encounter out of this.  

17 hours ago, shiaman14 said:

Lol. I was following the discussion. Being gender-neutral or effeminate is completely different from being homosexual. Your "extensive" research should have told you that but we've seen your "extensive" research to be nothing more than watching 1-2 YouTube videos.

What you are arguing here is that artists who try to blur the line and difference between the genders, maybe to copy some Christian renaissance style which tried to bring ambiguity between the genders so one may feel it is neither truly make or female, is not comparable to the way we find men of the homosexual community (or other groups) attempting to dress up. The reality however, is that men of the homosexual community - and this is not to spread hate - attempt to use make up to try to look effeminate. This is very common, and this is particular trait and behaviour of this community - that some practise. Drag-queens might also be another group that attempt to blurr the line between genders, but that is now going to an extreme.

My point was rather simple, drawing images of the Prophet of Islam, and the Aimmah, may Allah send them all his blessings, by trying to blur their line between male and female and imitate Christian artists who do that for their symbols is unacceptable. It is disrespectful, and it is not what we should aim for. Even if one were to assume this wasn't the case, any individual who puts aside the shackles of bias and looks at the paintings drawn can clearly see many of them have very tweezed eye-brows, they look as though they have a face full of make up, on top of the blurring of genders. Whether or not you are willing to accept men of the homosexual community are known to tweeze their eyebrows to such an extent, and wear make up under their eyes, on their forehead, on their cheeks and the like to achieve similar effects is your prerogative, but i know that is it common among this community. 

As for my 'extensive' research being nothing more than 'watching two or three Youtube videos', unfortunately, this is another biased and unfair assessment. For anyone not aware, the brother is referring to my post on Barrel Bombs. I had made it clear there are literally hundreds of videos clearly and explicitly depicting helicopters dropping crude/improvised bombs onto 'rebel' held territory. It is well known for anyone who has performed researched into this conflict that the terrorists do not own helicopters or any sort of airpower. The only group that do, are Assads forces, and it has been accepted all round from every group that those helicopters are being dropped into Syrian cities. The debate is, what weapon exactly was dropped, and i provided further evidence that would strongly suggest they are crude and indiscriminate bombs, like Barrel Bombs, which are favoured because they are cheap and deadly.

Now, was that the only evidence i brought? Rather, i analysed an entire transcript of Assads interview and i feel made a compelling case to show he has inadvertently admitted using such weapons. I showed pictorial evidence, i also referenced the fact many reports examining crater and impact sites give a clear indication that an indiscriminate bomb was used, independent investigators have established that. Put this all aside, we have refugees and people all over Syria from all backgrounds and groups giving eye-witness testimony to how they have seen these bombs explode, and that mirrors what we would see in a barrel bomb explosion. We have videos far too graphic for ShiaChat which are ubiquitous and support this.  There is compelling evidence Assad is using crude/indiscriminate weapons to take out terrorists because of the fact it is easy to make and saves on cost. I only raised issue to whether or not given the fact such weapons are indiscriminate, whether it is morally just for civilians to indirectly pay the price for that, more than should happen?

Unfortunately, bias has led you to attempt to make a one liner here, and develop a straw man of what it was i was actually saying. Once more, you may reply to this and further misrepresent and misinterpret what i am saying, Allah knows, any objective minded reader can examine it and they will know, and if it satisfies you to say other than that, then that's your right but it won't merit another response.

17 hours ago, shiaman14 said:

This is the same illogical statement another brother called Tawheed313 used to make. Hopefully you are not him with another account. Anyway, his theory and your theory is completely blown to shreds when we look at the thousands of people accepting shia islam every year. If you can provide sufficient evidence on the number of people waiting time accept shia islam as soon as tatbir is completely banned, then let's continue this discussion.

Unfortunately, your point is not valid. 

My claim was that the images we see , such as children having their scalps cut with dirty butcher knives regularly spread on tabloids, men covered in gashes and standing in herds in their sea of thick blood, and all of the other bizarre things some people do, turn people away from Shia Islam. These images are used to introduce our Madhab as a backward, supercilious and cult-like one. 

Now, is that the same as claiming it has stopped people from embracing Shia Islam? Absolutely not, and citing that fact is irrelevant. Many people do join, after seeing past that, knowing only a minority do it, raising it is cultural, and being compelling by the true core of Shia Islam, and not modern-day cult like behaviour among some. However, at the same time, does it annihilate our image and turn many away from us? That is a fact, no-one can deny.  

I'll let you read some of these comments for yourself, and honestly look into your own mind and soul and ask yourself whether this act overshadows the actual message of Imam al-Hussain (as) and whether or not this is how you want Imam al-Hussain (as) introduced?: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4938922/Shiite-Muslim-pilgrims-shed-blood-mark-Ashura.html

NOTE: I can't post the images from that article because ShiaChat has asked me to refrain from doing so. Just ponder over the fact that if seasoned Shias can not stomach the barbarism done on men, women and children, what the worlds masses will think?

4VnDrPa.png

sfgV1HX.png

TWDXSK5.png

pJ6PhDS.png

 

17 hours ago, shiaman14 said:

The only discussion is whether an act is permissible or not. Once it is deemed permissible, then it becomes subjective and up to the individual to do it, not do it, etc.

Unfortunately, it's far more complicated than that. As i have told you, for one, our Ulema differ on this issue. We have a number of scholars - heavy weights - who are absolutely convinced this act annihilates the message of Imam al-Hussain (as), are convinced it is contrary to everything Islam stands for, and harms us. So if you have a scholar who on a technical level thats the act is permissible, does that necessarily mean it constitutes best practise?

I have made it clear to you, there are many questionable things that could be permissible in the eyes of some scholars. Me rolling around topless in my garden and then punching the grass and having a friend shoot rubber bullets on my face, while i simultaneously slap him and cry 'Ya Hussain' might be permissible to some scholars. However, is such an act going to be harmful , overshadow Imam al-Hussain (as) and give our Madhab a bad image, as well as encourage acts that are ridiculous, against the human Fitrah,against moderation, sense and higher values in Islam?

So you might jump on board with certain scholars who say it is technically permissible, for instance, self-mutilation. However, consider the following:

1. Does self-mutilation teach people a legitimate and healthy way to deal with grief? We know so many people harm themselves instead of legitimately dealing with grief. Is this really the precedent we would like to set? Rather, Tatbir and its variances teach people an extremely unhealthy way to manage grief. 

2. Human beings are naturally repulsed by gore and blood. It is part of out Fitrah to be disgusted by acts of mutilation. Therefore, is having a show of extreme self-mutlation, walking on pools of blood, even performing public child abuse by introducing children to these practises, and therefore creating such universal disgust something which helps, or overshadows, destroys, and hijacks the message of Imam al-Hussain (as)?

3. Islam is built upon moral values and virtues that found their foundation upon dignity, moderation, civility, cleanliness. Are hairy men with blood splattered across their bodies, standing in pools of blood with deep gashes, before they cut their babies with dirty butcher knives in line with these higher ethics and virtues?

As i have made clear before, even if we ignore all the scholars who have given dire warnings and considered it among the worst of acts, something technically permissible does not mean it is best practise. A woman can go for man after man in Mutah so long as she does not consummate it. A man can have Mutahs and not be obliged to provide for his pregnant wife according to some scholars. No-one is going to stand here and say these acts are not harmful overall for society. 

18 hours ago, shiaman14 said:

Even if you do the above in bold, our enemies will call you kaffir. You can live your life trying to appease our enemies. I don't suffer from any such inferiority complex.

This is missing the point. We are not trying to compromise on our Madhab to 'appease our enemies'. Rather, what i am advocating is that certain acts by their very nature are barbaric, shameful, not in line with Islam and provoke a universal reaction of disgust among everyone, even moderate Sunnis and non-Muslims - and even many Shias. These acts are not in line with the higher ethics and values we stand for, and make a mockery out of us, and so our enemies will naturally seek to want to publicise them because of that anyway. I don't suffer from an inferiority complex. I've gone toe-to-toe with a large number of Salafis and am very convinced with the pure Aqeedah and strength of ale-Muhammed (asws).

18 hours ago, shiaman14 said:

Once again, factless and baseless claims. The fact that we have reverts clearly counters the argument. Tawheed313 couldn't bring facts, perhaps you can.

If you are not able to see:

1. The universal disgust these practises garner, from Shias, non-Shias and non-Muslims for which there is clear and ubiquitous evidence all over.

2. How they are used by our enemies and major Ulema such as Sayed Ali Khamanei, and Sayed Makarem Shirazi, as well as Sayed al-Hayderi and the like have clearly said benefit and are even supported by our enemies.

Then nothing else i say can convince you.

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15 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

The whole practice ends after Ashura anyway, let's go back to our normal life.

The peak of the practises may end , but the effects as seen in videos, pictures, articles, websites, books, and media last all year round.  Also, some also perform Tatbir and Zanjeer in Ramadhan, during the martyrdom of Imam Ali (as). Yes, they even do it in Ramadhan.  A lot of these bizarre practises, not just Tatbir are done during death commemorations also. 

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3 hours ago, Sirius_Bright said:
9 hours ago, kirtc said:

 

I don't need to take it to a maraja I don't emulate.  

Salam if you not emulate how you accept Wilayat the accepting of Marja is a practice to accept Wilayat & Imamate of Imam Mahdi (aj) not following blindly someone.

 

Pick a Marja ! any Marja

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12 hours ago, Sirius_Bright said:

Do you feel a bit of shame for using this kind of sentence again and again for an infallible. From nowhere the picture looks like what you describe. I know sunnis consider it haram drawing pictures of holy personalities but find a better argument if you want to reject a particular act. I remember once Tawheed313 (if it's not you) wrote something insulting about Janabe Fatema (sa) and whole shiachat went mad on him. 

SubhanAllah brother, how could you manage to twist my words like that? 

The very fact that i am raising my voice against images like this is evidence that i will not tolerate disrespect shown to them. There is absolutely nothing offensive with firmly criticising anyone who attempts to draw our pure-Aimmah (asws) and imitate artists who try to draw paintings of revered symbols in sexually ambitious manners, which blur the line between genders.  Being firm that i condemn anyone who tries to draw our master, and final Prophet, Muhammed (saw) in a way which is sexually ambiguous, in which the artist tries to make him appear as though he is wearing thick make up, with well done eye brows, and blur the lines between genders, is not disrespectful in any way. I am calling out what is apparent, and it is rather my love and respect of the Masumeen that leads me to condemning people who draw them, and especially those who do so in ways that are insulting.

If someone drew my late grandfather in a sexually ambiguous way, making his face look like he had make up on, and blurring the line between genders, and i pointed that out, it would not be a sign of disrespect , but a sign of utter respect and love that i am willing to condemn people who disrespect him by drawing him like that. The situation is far more severe for the Infallibles, and i will never tolerate anyone who is misguided enough to draw them, to try to draw them in that offensive manner. 

As for Lady Fatima (as), my master, the pure lady, the infallible lady, leader of the women of paradise, i love her more than i love my own mother, let alone disrespect her. However, what i will not sit here and do is accept the narrative that Lady Fatima (as) stood there , in front of her husband , in front of grown members of her family, and their companions, being beaten up by Umar ibn al-Khattab, while they watched on and did nothing. That narrative is not proven. I accept a threat was made, and i even accept the high likelihood that there was an attack with Fatima (as) may have been hurt in the process. However, i do not accept as a strong account any narrative whereby she is repeatedly hit or beaten up while no-one moves, shields her, or protects her right away. 

 

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1 minute ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam if you not emulate how you accept Wilayat the accepting of Marja is a practice to accept Wilayat & Imamate of Imam Mahdi (aj) not following blindly someone.

Alaikas Salaam brother, 

I said I don't need to accept anyone's fatwa other than my muqallid. I follow Ayatullah Sistani and his rulings are enough for me. If you are trying to bring the concept of Wilayate Faqih then please keep it for some other day.

Thanks.

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On 3/10/2018 at 8:22 PM, shiaman14 said:

So I went through the Daily Mail article Can you please point out where they maligned the shias for tatbir? If anything, it gives us 1 news cycle and there is no such thing as bad publicity...is there?

If you are not able to see that the overwhelming majority of readers of that article responded in disgust, condemning Islam, religion, child-abuse shown in that article, and not clearly concluding that certain acts go against out fitrah, rationality and sense, and so overshadow and hijack what Ashura is really about, i can't convince you otherwise dear brother. Suffice to say have a read at the comments here:

4VnDrPa.png

sfgV1HX.png

TWDXSK5.png

pJ6PhDS.png

Look into your mind and soul. Put aside any grudge or hatred you have towards me, and ask yourself with a clear mind, free of the shackles of preconceived bias:

1. Does this act cause universal disgust and outrage to the extent it greatly overshadows what Ashura is about ?

2. Many of those exposed to these articles and images will be introduced to Shia Islam through these articles, as they did not know too much about them before. Now, is this the first thought, idea, and perception you want the masses to have of Shias? Is this how you want Imam al-Hussain (as) and Kerbala, and Ashura introduced, and associated with ?

Refer to my other posts for a fuller critique, where i condemned child-abuse practised in Tatbir, questioned the precedent set on an unhealthy way to deal wit grief, questioned our fitrah response to blood and gore, and also made clear it went against all of the principles Islam has come to stand for. 

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A sincere final message to everyone involved in the discussion and everyone who is just observing:

Discussions about certain rituals , such as rolling around in thick mud, self-mutilation of men, women and children and the like evoke emotional responses on all sides. Suffice to say the fact such acts have now become so central to some peoples hearts is evidence that certain minorities have formed cults and revolve around these practises, as if it were a foundation of their religion.  You will see on this thread what should not be occurring: personal attacks, twisting of arguments, and fallacies made of all kinds.

I am asking you, either as a contributor on here, or an onlooker to ignore personal attacks, cliques, one liners, sarcasm, or who can talk the most abrasively, and focus rather on the merit of the arguments. You might end up doing this and disagreeing with me, and that's fine, because that is your right. Examine carefully the points made, the claims built on, and give each side a fair reading.

This will be my last post, and last contribution. I will not respond to any more posts, nor be provoked with personal attacks or twisting of my words. I don't think it's worth engaging in that sort of dialogue, and life is too short to waste on pettiness. I was involved in this thread because i feel i have a good case to believe in what i believe, and because i want the best for this Madhab. I've made my points, i've sufficiently countered points - in my eyes - and said all i feel there needs to be said for this particular discussion.

Again, this image is unacceptable: 

muhammad-the-white-prophet-with-black-sl

Ultimately, Allah is a witness, and i refer everything to him, at the end of the day. 

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 see how they try to deceive people by making such Images looks likes some persons:angry::keeporder:

images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRdyNy2fIoyBsLkI5nJzg_  crop.php?r=_Tvz_xYK2RLo7wDbYSzoRBKsAfVk3  9kwcvp.jpg

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@Intellectual Resistance

Did you understand that this pictures look sexually ambiguous to you alone and no one else. I saw this as a perfect man unless you brought this up. If you want to believe like that please keep it up to you and don't create doubts here. Please. 

And about your last para, we discussed this before but you are adamant on your view. I don't have more time to waste. 

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48 minutes ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam  no the Ashura & Arbaeen is peak of it but we must always remember it all of the year 

as Imam Khomeini (ra) said :every day is Ashura & every land is Karbala.

But do we really remember everyday? Do we really follow the teaching of Imam Husain (as) after ashura? By guarding ourselves from evil, do good acts etc? It is even good if we know our Imam Husain (as) before ashura too. 

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3 hours ago, iraqi_shia said:

I have to say, this is a load of nonsense.

No one would behave this way if they were mourning a loved one, eg if ones child or parent died are you telling me they would dress up and do a play? Or start hitting their heads with a sword? Its just completely fake. No culture does this.

This is not "cultural" expression, this is just ignorant people doing things they think is right out of utter ignorance. 

We need to clamp down on it where ever we see it and call it out as an insult to people who are sincere. 

But they are doing it. And have been doing it for years. In Iraq!!!

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On 3/11/2018 at 6:00 PM, shiaman14 said:

But they are doing it. And have been doing it for years. In Iraq!!!

I think you misunderstand. Im not saying it doesnt happen, Im saying the excuse that its "culture" is nonsense.

As when someone dies for example in Iraqi culture, no one cuts their head or rolls in mud. So to use that excuse to say, "thats just how we do things, its our norm" is rubbish.

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9 hours ago, kirtc said:

yea.. we all mourn. tell me where it says you have to mourn in that way.

@Sirius_Bright

sure, I didnt say all... and I know you guys will keep defending it most probably because you saw someone in your family doing it and think they cant be wrong..  but in the end it down to what marja you follow.

so maybe you guys are right only Allah swt knows.. according to our marja it is haram and you could take it up with him.

I was the first one in my family to do it. And I defend it and I have a 0 balance on Qada salah, sawn, did hajj too and Ziarat complete as well..

Please categorize and put me in a box too.

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On 3/11/2018 at 2:36 PM, Intellectual Resistance said:

It is rather unfortunate that what ought to be a sober, controlled, and sensible discussion often leads to sarcasm, personal attacks and the like. If we are here, out of real sincerity, to discuss a rather important issue, then the least we should be doing is addressing points, and nothing more or less.  Remember, when ego (personal biases, grudges, not wanting to admit fault) overshadow making and evaluating points, this does not become a medium to seek truth - or be informed - but rather a vessel for a show of ego on all sides, personal attacks, and what is honestly an enormous waste of time. This is an internet forum, we are Shias, minority within minorities, and most of us have many issues to tackle and deal with in real life. It's incredible petty to put aside maturity and descend into behaviour like that.

Nevertheless, i will make one last attempt and responding to posts on here. After that, i am going to be leaving the discussion because i feel i will have made a good case for what position i am coming from. Fortunately, my posts are only arguments and conclusions based on those arguments, or critiques of other peoples arguments, and not personal attacks, twisting words and the like. 

You have called people zealots, ignorant and other stuff and then you claim the bold above. I guess you are missing the self-reflection gene.

Ever the victim you are.

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On 3/11/2018 at 4:03 PM, Abu Nur said:

But do we really remember everyday? Do we really follow the teaching of Imam Husain (as) after ashura? By guarding ourselves from evil, do good acts etc? It is even good if we know our Imam Husain (as) before ashura too. 

Salam one great problems of Shia muslim Society is that we mention & restrict Ahlulbayt (as) just in certain times & occasions  

 

DEDICATION OF THE NAMES OF THE HOLY PROPHET AND IMAMS TO THE DAYS OF THE WEEK AND THEIR ZIYARAHS ON EACH DAY

Sayyid Ibn Tawus, in his book, Jamal al-Usbu’, states that it has been narrated on the authority of Ibn Baabwayh that al-Saqr ibn Abi-Dalaf said:

When al-Mutawakkil, the ‘Abbasid ruler, ordered our master Ali ibn Muhammad al-Naqi (Imam al-Hadi, peace be upon him) to be present in Samarra’, the capital, I went there investigating his news. He was imprisoned at al-Zariqi, al-Mutawakkil’s chamberlain. When I was permitted to visit this chamberlain, he asked me, “O Saqr! What for are you here?”

“I am here for a good matter,” I answered.

The chamberlain then asked me to sit down. When I did, we discussed the public affairs until he asked all the others to leave him. When we remained alone, he asked me,

“Tell me the truth! What for are you here and what has brought you?”

“I am here for a good matter,” I answered.

He then said to me, “Perhaps, you have come here to see your master.”

“My master is the Prince of the Faithful (i.e. the ruler),” I answered.

But the chamberlain said to me, “Shut up! Your real master is the Truth. Do not fear from me. I also follow the same faith you follow.”

I thus expressed my thanks to Almighty Allah.

He then asked me whether I would like to see the Imam (a.s.) and I answered in the affirmative. Yet, he asked me to wait until the mailman would leave.

When the man left, the chamberlain ordered one of the servants to take me from the hand and lead me inside a certain room.

When I entered, I found the Imam (a.s.) sitting on a rug next to which there was a ready grave. After he responded to my salutation, the Imam (a.s.) allowed me to sit down and then asked me the reason why I was there.

“I am here to investigate your manner,” I said.

As my eyes fell on the grave, I wept. The Imam (a.s.) looked at me and said, “Saqr! Do not be upset. They will not be able to hurt me.”

I thus praised and thanked Almighty Allah and said, “O my master! There is a Hadith reported from the Holy Prophet (s.a.w.a.) whose meaning is not known by me.”

“What is that Hadith?” asked the Imam.

I mentioned the Hadith that reads, “Do not provoke the hostility of the Days otherwise they will be your enemies.”

Explaining to me, the holy Imam (a.s.) said, “Verily, we are the Days so long as the heavens and the earth endure. Saturday is the name of the Messenger of Allah, Sunday the name of Ameer al-Momineen Imam Ali, Monday the name of the Imams al-Hasan and al-Husayn, Tuesday the names of Ali ibn al-Husayn (Imam Zayn al-’Abidin), Muhammad ibn Ali (Imam al-Baqir) and Ja’far ibn Muhammad (Imam al-Sadiq), Wednesday the names of Musa ibn Ja’far (Imam al-Kazim), Ali ibn Musa (Imam al-Rida), Muhammad ibn Ali (Imam al-Jawad) and me, Thursday the name of my son al-Hasan ibn Ali, and Friday the name of my grandson (Imam al-Mahdi). On Friday will the group of the Truth join him. This is the meaning of the Days. You thus should not provoke their hostility in this world; otherwise, they will be your enemies in the Next World.”

The Imam (a.s.) then asked me to bid farewell and leave.

http://alhassanain.org/english/?com=book&id=928#

FIFTH CHAPTER: THE HOLY INFALLIBLES AND THE DAYS OF THE WEEK

DEDICATION OF THE NAMES OF THE HOLY PROPHET AND IMAMS TO THE DAYS OF THE WEEK AND THEIR ZIYARAHS ON EACH DAY

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On 9.3.2018 at 7:25 AM, Gaius I. Caesar said:

Key word: culture. Most of the things you saw are Indo-Pak in origin and have nothing to do with Islam. These practices are done by ignorant people who confuse their cultural upbringing and heritage with Islam and being a Muslim.

its not only culture from indo pak brother its from every country they do culturaly Muharram every year tatbir is iraqi culture and iranian also do it culture wise so its not only indo pak bro :)

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22 hours ago, Intellectual Resistance said:

What you are arguing here is that artists who try to blur the line and difference between the genders, maybe to copy some Christian renaissance style which tried to bring ambiguity between the genders so one may feel it is neither truly make or female, is not comparable to the way we find men of the homosexual community (or other groups) attempting to dress up. The reality however, is that men of the homosexual community - and this is not to spread hate - attempt to use make up to try to look effeminate. This is very common, and this is particular trait and behaviour of this community - that some practise. Drag-queens might also be another group that attempt to blurr the line between genders, but that is now going to an extreme.

My point was rather simple, drawing images of the Prophet of Islam, and the Aimmah, may Allah send them all his blessings, by trying to blur their line between male and female and imitate Christian artists who do that for their symbols is unacceptable. It is disrespectful, and it is not what we should aim for. Even if one were to assume this wasn't the case, any individual who puts aside the shackles of bias and looks at the paintings drawn can clearly see many of them have very tweezed eye-brows, they look as though they have a face full of make up, on top of the blurring of genders. Whether or not you are willing to accept men of the homosexual community are known to tweeze their eyebrows to such an extent, and wear make up under their eyes, on their forehead, on their cheeks and the like to achieve similar effects is your prerogative, but i know that is it common among this community.

I am not arguing anything about the type of art used, blah, blah. That was another brother. I have seen those images hundreds of times and never paid attention to the 'homosexuality' you refer to and I think almost everyone will agree with me. Therefore it is a perversion of your mind more than anything else. For all you know, a female artist drew those pictures and could be the sole reason of the effeminate touch (not that I think they are).

A respectful person would stop the conversation at "images are not allowed so these pictures are haram to draw, use, hang in homes, etc."

22 hours ago, Intellectual Resistance said:

As for my 'extensive' research being nothing more than 'watching two or three Youtube videos', unfortunately, this is another biased and unfair assessment. For anyone not aware, the brother is referring to my post on Barrel Bombs. I had made it clear there are literally hundreds of videos clearly and explicitly depicting helicopters dropping crude/improvised bombs onto 'rebel' held territory. It is well known for anyone who has performed researched into this conflict that the terrorists do not own helicopters or any sort of airpower. The only group that do, are Assads forces, and it has been accepted all round from every group that those helicopters are being dropped into Syrian cities. The debate is, what weapon exactly was dropped, and i provided further evidence that would strongly suggest they are crude and indiscriminate bombs, like Barrel Bombs, which are favoured because they are cheap and deadly.

Now, was that the only evidence i brought? Rather, i analysed an entire transcript of Assads interview and i feel made a compelling case to show he has inadvertently admitted using such weapons. I showed pictorial evidence, i also referenced the fact many reports examining crater and impact sites give a clear indication that an indiscriminate bomb was used, independent investigators have established that. Put this all aside, we have refugees and people all over Syria from all backgrounds and groups giving eye-witness testimony to how they have seen these bombs explode, and that mirrors what we would see in a barrel bomb explosion. We have videos far too graphic for ShiaChat which are ubiquitous and support this.  There is compelling evidence Assad is using crude/indiscriminate weapons to take out terrorists because of the fact it is easy to make and saves on cost. I only raised issue to whether or not given the fact such weapons are indiscriminate, whether it is morally just for civilians to indirectly pay the price for that, more than should happen?

You literally posted 1 doctored video from an unverified source and a video of Assad denying using barrel bombs. That is not 'extensive' but we digress. And others held the same viewpoint as me. And no, you are not a victim...

22 hours ago, Intellectual Resistance said:

Unfortunately, your point is not valid. 

My claim was that the images we see , such as children having their scalps cut with dirty butcher knives regularly spread on tabloids, men covered in gashes and standing in herds in their sea of thick blood, and all of the other bizarre things some people do, turn people away from Shia Islam. These images are used to introduce our Madhab as a backward, supercilious and cult-like one.

Now, is that the same as claiming it has stopped people from embracing Shia Islam? Absolutely not, and citing that fact is irrelevant. Many people do join, after seeing past that, knowing only a minority do it, raising it is cultural, and being compelling by the true core of Shia Islam, and not modern-day cult like behaviour among some. However, at the same time, does it annihilate our image and turn many away from us? That is a fact, no-one can deny.

You are making the claim that tatbir is pushing people away from shia islam. I am asking you to prove it. My point is that as long as people are reverting to it, clearly tatbir is a non-issue. My proof is the hundreds of reverts on SC and millions around the world.

Fact is people will only turn away from it if they are turning towards it in the first place. If someone is going through the Daily Mirror, they will pause on the article and then move on. You present it as if the entire world is ready to be shia if it weren't for tatbir. Sensationalizing something that doesn't even cover 1 news cycle. It's just propaganda.

22 hours ago, Intellectual Resistance said:

I'll let you read some of these comments for yourself, and honestly look into your own mind and soul and ask yourself whether this act overshadows the actual message of Imam al-Hussain (as) and whether or not this is how you want Imam al-Hussain (as) introduced?: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4938922/Shiite-Muslim-pilgrims-shed-blood-mark-Ashura.html

NOTE: I can't post the images from that article because ShiaChat has asked me to refrain from doing so. Just ponder over the fact that if seasoned Shias can not stomach the barbarism done on men, women and children, what the worlds masses will think?

Once again, you are always focused on what people think. There are articles about the Rohingya massacres where people write, "serves those Muslims right" and such things. There are thousands of comments of what people wish to do to Muslims when we are in prostration. Should we stop daily prayers too?

No westerner walks at an airport worrying about a shia flagellating himself, they worry about other matters...being blown n all. It is something that happens once a year but we have to hear you moan and complain about it for the rest of the year.

22 hours ago, Intellectual Resistance said:

Unfortunately, it's far more complicated than that. As i have told you, for one, our Ulema differ on this issue. We have a number of scholars - heavy weights - who are absolutely convinced this act annihilates the message of Imam al-Hussain (as), are convinced it is contrary to everything Islam stands for, and harms us. So if you have a scholar who on a technical level thats the act is permissible, does that necessarily mean it constitutes best practise?

I have made it clear to you, there are many questionable things that could be permissible in the eyes of some scholars. Me rolling around topless in my garden and then punching the grass and having a friend shoot rubber bullets on my face, while i simultaneously slap him and cry 'Ya Hussain' might be permissible to some scholars. However, is such an act going to be harmful , overshadow Imam al-Hussain (as) and give our Madhab a bad image, as well as encourage acts that are ridiculous, against the human Fitrah,against moderation, sense and higher values in Islam?

So you might jump on board with certain scholars who say it is technically permissible, for instance, self-mutilation. However, consider the following:

1. Does self-mutilation teach people a legitimate and healthy way to deal with grief? We know so many people harm themselves instead of legitimately dealing with grief. Is this really the precedent we would like to set? Rather, Tatbir and its variances teach people an extremely unhealthy way to manage grief. 

2. Human beings are naturally repulsed by gore and blood. It is part of out Fitrah to be disgusted by acts of mutilation. Therefore, is having a show of extreme self-mutlation, walking on pools of blood, even performing public child abuse by introducing children to these practises, and therefore creating such universal disgust something which helps, or overshadows, destroys, and hijacks the message of Imam al-Hussain (as)?

3. Islam is built upon moral values and virtues that found their foundation upon dignity, moderation, civility, cleanliness. Are hairy men with blood splattered across their bodies, standing in pools of blood with deep gashes, before they cut their babies with dirty butcher knives in line with these higher ethics and virtues?

As i have made clear before, even if we ignore all the scholars who have given dire warnings and considered it among the worst of acts, something technically permissible does not mean it is best practise. A woman can go for man after man in Mutah so long as she does not consummate it. A man can have Mutahs and not be obliged to provide for his pregnant wife according to some scholars. No-one is going to stand here and say these acts are not harmful overall for society.

And as I have made clear to you, you can't regulate the whole world. What may seem abominable to you, could seem perfectly acceptable to someone else. So you use the opinions of our learned scholars and go with what they say.

The image of Islam is neither made nor destroyed because if tatbir. It barely covers one news cycle.

Now we could have a discussion about the acts themselves and their coverage in news or pictures or videos. For example, "hairy men with blood splattered across their bodies, standing in pools of blood with deep gashes, before they cut their babies with dirty butcher knives" behind closed doors. Based on your entire argument being that it turns people away, surely you would deem this acceptable then.

22 hours ago, Intellectual Resistance said:

This is missing the point. We are not trying to compromise on our Madhab to 'appease our enemies'. Rather, what i am advocating is that certain acts by their very nature are barbaric, shameful, not in line with Islam and provoke a universal reaction of disgust among everyone, even moderate Sunnis and non-Muslims - and even many Shias. These acts are not in line with the higher ethics and values we stand for, and make a mockery out of us, and so our enemies will naturally seek to want to publicise them because of that anyway. I don't suffer from an inferiority complex. I've gone toe-to-toe with a large number of Salafis and am very convinced with the pure Aqeedah and strength of ale-Muhammed (asws).

I haven't lived much in Pakistan but the one year I spent there, my sunnis friends were pretty fascinated by azadari and everything around it. We wold spend hours talking about azadari and Hussain and what sacrifice truly means, etc. So while your research and opinions are based on the Internet, I have real-world, true life experience that state otherwise.

22 hours ago, Intellectual Resistance said:

If you are not able to see:

1. The universal disgust these practises garner, from Shias, non-Shias and non-Muslims for which there is clear and ubiquitous evidence all over.

2. How they are used by our enemies and major Ulema such as Sayed Ali Khamanei, and Sayed Makarem Shirazi, as well as Sayed al-Hayderi and the like have clearly said benefit and are even supported by our enemies.

Then nothing else i say can convince you.

1. Just grandiosing here. Ashura barely covers 1 news cycle so there is no universal disgust. Universal fact is people are reverting all the time.

2. The biggest tool our enemies have are shias who fall their simple tricks. Our enemies complain about tatbir. I tell them to go fix the suicide-bombing and terrorism issue and leave the mourning of Hussain to us. You cower your head and try to figure out ways to appease them. Our enemies want dissension and disunity - you constantly post divisive articles  and videos to create the very rifts they are trying to create - essentially doing their work for them.

There are a thousand things you and I can disagree on with regards to azadari - no problem. But there will never be a time that I will Do or NOT DO something in azadari because of what my sunni brothers will think. They lost that right when they chose and choose to side with the sahaba over the Ahlul Bayt.

22 hours ago, Intellectual Resistance said:

The peak of the practises may end , but the effects as seen in videos, pictures, articles, websites, books, and media last all year round.  Also, some also perform Tatbir and Zanjeer in Ramadhan, during the martyrdom of Imam Ali (as). Yes, they even do it in Ramadhan.  A lot of these bizarre practises, not just Tatbir are done during death commemorations also. 

you perpetuate this. The people who do it, move on.

Edited by shiaman14
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Everyone in this thread is treading the fine lines between culture, myths, religion, hearsay, knowledge, customs and wisdom. These are quite difficult things to discuss but they need to be discussed every other timeperiod.

It's also a fact that the time, the place, the geopolitical and economical background and people you grow up with form you as a person whether you want to or not, whether consciously or subconsciously.

It's hard to break down what separates who and why and how. There's a sensitivity in all things that compose a human being. I read everything's that been said and feel like some of you are talking at each other not to each other, sometimes even pass each other's meanings not realizing you're saying the same thing.

What's emotionally important for one is extremely preposterous to another. What constitutes one's logic is nonsense to another. Personalities clash and it's one thing to be harsh about it but another thing to accept that it is what it is and keep it moving. 

I personally find poetry and singing and latmiyat and nohas really irritating, superficial and sometimes, dare I say, quite gay. With the hand movements and the "act like I'm saying something profound faces". (It's a joke. With a bit of personal truth. Don't takfir me.) But do I sit around a majlis proclaiming such things to people who with their entire heart and mind composed versed in honour of someone? Nah. Because I know my view and my understandings are limited and I could never walk in another man's shoes nor understand another man's heart. In some cultures music plays a huge role and can not be translated into "ghina" shar'i wise. In other cultures music is entirely just frowned upon and not done. These things shouldn't interfere with what's halal and haram and need to be taken for what they are, namely, important to other people. I feel like y'all need a bit of understanding and mutual respect. Islam isn't here to dictate it's here to help us get rid of evil and grow closer to worshipping Allah.

That's my two cents. Take it or leave it. Peace.

Edited by P. Ease
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