Can't shake the paganistic rites/rituals/tradition

[iraqi_shia]

19 minutes ago, ShiaMan14 said:

I guarantee you brother there is no universal code of showing love.

we argue over inconsequential matters

Im not arguing, its just a discussion.

But I can assure you, if a loved one has died or stood for something, we do not see the same behavior for them as we do Imam Husain AS, why is that?

Do you think Imam Husain AS would rather we stood for his cause, hold dear what he held dear, or commemorate his death in a way which distances his message from the masses?

[ShiaMan14]

59 minutes ago, iraqi_shia said:

Im not arguing, its just a discussion.

But I can assure you, if a loved one has died or stood for something, we do not see the same behavior for them as we do Imam Husain AS, why is that?

Do you think Imam Husain AS would rather we stood for his cause, hold dear what he held dear, or commemorate his death in a way which distances his message from the masses?

there is a difference between performing an act and where an act is performed.

Praying salah on time is good but not good for a woman to do in public.

SImilarly, there is a difference between doing tatbir and doing tatbir in public...that is if the masses are being turned away from it. Despite the proliferation of tatbir pics, shiaism is growing so in some ways, it is just a myth that tatbir pushes people away from Imam Hussain's message.

[Ali silva]

Magnets various Shiite clerics who advocate such practices on celebrities such as ashura and moscain. Also in latmies, poetry and songs extinguished that does not match with a message of the Ahlul bait. In Iraq Sayed Sistani could have been more evident in missions like Sayed Khamenei and Sayed Fadlulah and other Shiite clerics.
God is with the patients!

[Ashvazdanghe]

12 hours ago, ShiaMan14 said:

it is just a myth that tatbir pushes people away from Imam Hussain's message.

Salam this act currently becomes weak point of remembering of Imam Hussain's (as) & anti Shia media are using it that people can't receive the true message of Imam Hussain (as) for example at Nigeria that has youngest generation of Shia by donating blood instead of Tatbir ,every year more people join to Shia muslim community

currently the best way for awaiting for Faraj Imam Mahdi (aj) is that we introduce Imam Hussain (as) in best form to people as Imam Sadiq (as) said be cause of honor for us not our cause of our shame.

 

[Ron_Burgundy]

On 4/17/2018 at 8:18 AM, iraqi_shia said:

But my point is that is not how love is shown.

If I love my parents, I hold dear what they hold dear, I try to keep their values and honor them.

If someone loves Imam Husain AS, there are always opportunities to stand against evil and oppression. I think some of these activities we see are simply bravado and a show, almost like a circus. We have animals, mud, fire etc, its really just an act.

Of course that should be the priority and right thing to do. However, what if someone does all those things and do tatbir? 

[ShiaMan14]

14 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam this act currently becomes weak point of remembering of Imam Hussain's (as) & anti Shia media are using it that people can't receive the true message of Imam Hussain (as) for example at Nigeria that has youngest generation of Shia by donating blood instead of Tatbir ,every year more people join to Shia muslim community

currently the best way for awaiting for Faraj Imam Mahdi (aj) is that we introduce Imam Hussain (as) in best form to people as Imam Sadiq (as) said be cause of honor for us not our cause of our shame.

 

Anti-shia people use everything in their propaganda against us. they have website and youtube videos in the thousands misinterpreting the speeches of our scholars. Should we stop making speeches out of fear of being misinterpreted.

please define 1 best way and make sure every single shia in the world is in agreement with you on it.

[Ashvazdanghe]

11 hours ago, ShiaMan14 said:

please define 1 best way and make sure every single shia in the world is in agreement with you on it.

Salam if we act well their accusation will become more & more lesser & more baseless at first people see the outer Image of each religion that Sunni muslims were successful to show themselves as clean & peaceful people but when people look for shia Islam at first they see bloody bodies & barbaric ways that mostly advertises by British media ,most of bloody & disgusting Shia Islamic Images & videos are in top search results by their devilish introducing of Shia Islam by Tatbir ,that causes people that are searching about Shia Islam run away from it & accept Sunni Islam.

if it not because of ISIS search results was more favor of them not us.

https://www.google.com/search?q=shia+muslim&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiFpoK05MXaAhXN26QKHe83DwUQ_AUICigB&biw=1360&bih=637

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=sunni+muslim&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiJ25HK5MXaAhWP_aQKHSeUABIQ_AUICigB&biw=1360&bih=637#imgrc=_

Edited April 19, 2018 by Ashvazdanghe

[iraqi_shia]

23 hours ago, Ron_Burgundy said:

Of course that should be the priority and right thing to do. However, what if someone does all those things and do tatbir? 

No. 

If it is not normal and obvious, then it should be discouraged as the people view it as madness.

[ShiaMan14]

8 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam if we act well their accusation will become more & more lesser & more baseless at first people see the outer Image of each religion that Sunni muslims were successful to show themselves as clean & peaceful people but when people look for shia Islam at first they see bloody bodies & barbaric ways that mostly advertises by British media ,most of bloody & disgusting Shia Islamic Images & videos are in top search results by their devilish introducing of Shia Islam by Tatbir ,that causes people that are searching about Shia Islam run away from it & accept Sunni Islam.

if it not because of ISIS search results was more favor of them not us.

https://www.google.com/search?q=shia+muslim&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiFpoK05MXaAhXN26QKHe83DwUQ_AUICigB&biw=1360&bih=637

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=sunni+muslim&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiJ25HK5MXaAhWP_aQKHSeUABIQ_AUICigB&biw=1360&bih=637#imgrc=_

brother - is your solution "act well"?

[786:)]

Goals according to @ShiaMan14 lol

You are truly an idiot if you think this practice brings anything positive to Shias. Its just as bad as Sunnis blowing themselves up--except ours is an annual ritual.

Edited April 19, 2018 by 786:)

[ShiaMan14]

11 hours ago, 786:) said:

Goals according to @ShiaMan14 lol

You are truly an idiot if you think this practice brings anything positive to Shias. Its just as bad as Sunnis blowing themselves up--except ours is an annual ritual.

Aren't you the one who wants to reform everything within shiaism? 

Aren't you the one who does taqleed of a stranger you met on the Internet on a blog?

Your opinions hardly matter.

[AnotherShepherd]

There's no doubt that many view tatbir as barbaric. Could you imagine tatbir processions taking place at the prophet's masjid in Madina in a world where the shia control the city? 

[Ron_Burgundy]

On 4/19/2018 at 10:05 AM, iraqi_shia said:

No. 

If it is not normal and obvious, then it should be discouraged as the people view it as madness.

I am sure you are not going to convince someone by being rude to him. educating people needs years and years of work. It is not easy to educate people. 

[Ron_Burgundy]

On 4/19/2018 at 11:47 AM, 786:) said:

Goals according to @ShiaMan14 lol

You are truly an idiot if you think this practice brings anything positive to Shias. Its just as bad as Sunnis blowing themselves up--except ours is an annual ritual.

is it really hard for people to be polite and don't call others idiot? 

[Ahmed_516478]

On 4/19/2018 at 8:47 AM, 786:) said:

Goals according to @ShiaMan14 lol

You are truly an idiot if you think this practice brings anything positive to Shias. Its just as bad as Sunnis blowing themselves up--except ours is an annual ritual.

Are you really comparing nasibi suicide bombings to tatbir? Absolutely ridiculous. Tatbir is an issue of ikhtilaf among shia ulama, it shouldn't be an issue that divides mumineen.  

[Ashvazdanghe]

10 hours ago, Shi3i_jadeed said:

it shouldn't be an issue that divides mumineen.  

Salam ,currently damage of Tatbir is more than its benefit for Shias ,if Shias that do Tatbir instead of it donate their blood it will be better for shias.

[Ahmed_516478]

13 minutes ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam ,currently damage of Tatbir is more than its benefit for Shias ,if Shias that do Tatbir instead of it donate their blood it will be better for shias.

walaykum salam.
I understand you may be against tatbir but it is a matter of disagreement amongst our ulama, its honestly not a big deal. Nawasib will hate shia whether or not they do tatbir. All of the imams (as) expect for the imam of our time were martyrs. Personally I don't practice tatbir and have no plans to start but I don't judge brothers who do partake in it. 

[Ashvazdanghe]

9 minutes ago, Shi3i_jadeed said:

awasib will hate shia whether or not they do tatbir

if Tatbir is practiced in lower rate each year ,it will cause that they lose one of their tools against Shias. 

[iraqi_shia]

17 hours ago, Ron_Burgundy said:

I am sure you are not going to convince someone by being rude to him. educating people needs years and years of work. It is not easy to educate people. 

Definitely, these kind of acts, done in public are seen as rude and distasteful by a lot of innocent western people.

[ShiaMan14]

19 hours ago, Ron_Burgundy said:

is it really hard for people to be polite and don't call others idiot? 

He also thinks people who pay khums are idiots and those that collect khums aka our marajae are corrupt so like I said, his opinions don't matter.

1 hour ago, iraqi_shia said:

Definitely, these kind of acts, done in public are seen as rude and distasteful by a lot of innocent western people.

We need to get out of the mentality of trying to appease the white man regardless of what we are doing. 

Having said that, almost all scholars say that it should NOT be done where it puts Islam in a bad light so they are not as much against the act as they are against the public display of it...which is true for all acts of worship. Nothing should be done for publicity. So the act of tatbir is just fine in a private center with no cameras.

[Gaius I. Caesar]

3 hours ago, ShiaMan14 said:

We need to get out of the mentality of trying to appease the white man regardless of what we are doing. 

No, if anything we should refrain from saying stupid things like this^  

[ShiaMan14]

56 minutes ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

No, if anything we should refrain from saying stupid things like this^  

Why so? This is not meant to be racist against white people. Hang around non-whites enough and you will know what I am talking about.

I read this article just this morning:

Unapologetically Black

All I am saying is the legitimacy of an act is not determined by what person X will think about it.

Edited April 21, 2018 by ShiaMan14

[Gaius I. Caesar]

Just now, ShiaMan14 said:

Why so? This is not meant to be racist against white people. Hang around non-whites enough and you will know what I am talking about.

I understand but Islam is not exclusive to race, we have enough problems with media stereotypes and terrorism.  Do we really need to point at white man? Most of our problems come from ourselves in the first place.

[iraqi_shia]

1 hour ago, ShiaMan14 said:

Why so? This is not meant to be racist against white people. Hang around non-whites enough and you will know what I am talking about.

I read this article just this morning:

Unapologetically Black

All I am saying is the legitimacy of an act is not determined by what person X will think about it.

I understand the point your trying to make, but its not relevant.

I have already pointed out the massive flaw in your argument. You claim that these rituals are simply your own way of feeling sympathy or mourning. However, you do not feel sympathy or mourn for others in this way. For example if a close family member died, you would not start these rituals.

Why is that? 

[ShiaMan14]

1 hour ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

I understand but Islam is not exclusive to race, we have enough problems with media stereotypes and terrorism.  Do we really need to point at white man? Most of our problems come from ourselves in the first place.

Brother - someone made the comment about the west. That's code word for white people. People consider Australia to be "West".

27 minutes ago, iraqi_shia said:

I understand the point your trying to make, but its not relevant.

I have already pointed out the massive flaw in your argument. You claim that these rituals are simply your own way of feeling sympathy or mourning. However, you do not feel sympathy or mourn for others in this way. For example if a close family member died, you would not start these rituals.

Why is that? 

Brother -  there is no flaw. Hussain is closer to any shia's heart than any family member. So what people do for Hussain should not compared to what people do for others. As a matter of fact, the soyem and arbaeen for family members is also observed by discussing the trials and tribulations of Hussain (as).

I will say again - we should separate the act from the place. Women are not allowed to pray in public; we don't condemn praying but the place. Similar for tatbir or any act of faith for that matter.

[786:)]

On 4/19/2018 at 11:37 PM, ShiaMan14 said:

Aren't you the one who wants to reform everything within shiaism? 

Aren't you the one who does taqleed of a stranger you met on the Internet on a blog?

Your opinions hardly matter.

I would love to reform a thing or two. Nope I follow a mix of maraja that sound the most convincing in a subject. I used to advocate for zanjeer and the whole circus before. So before you jump to any conclusions please keep that in mind. I am a prisoner to logic and reason. I don’t hold my preconceived opinions if they are shredded to pieces with reason.

And your opinion means nothing to me either.

On 4/20/2018 at 3:39 PM, Shi3i_jadeed said:

Are you really comparing nasibi suicide bombings to tatbir? Absolutely ridiculous. Tatbir is an issue of ikhtilaf among shia ulama, it shouldn't be an issue that divides mumineen.  

Yes I am. I call a spade a spade. No need to sugar coat things just becuase they come from your party. That would be called politics. The act of tatbir is as disgusting to me as a suicide bomber. Ayatollah Khamenei has called the act a disappointment.

Sadly you would keep mum about suicide bombings if Shias did indeed go that route on the basis of a few ulema allowing it.

The fact of the matter is there is an ikhtilaf among the ulema. That in itself will cause a divide—which you are seeing today. So you should go tell the ulema not to divide instead of the laymen.

[Gaius I. Caesar]

7 hours ago, ShiaMan14 said:

Brother - someone made the comment about the west. That's code word for white people. People consider Australia to be "West".

Still no excuse, I mean I see some on here refer to China, Japan and Korea as the "West"; Not that they are right  but even then they share some of the same values and think we cannot integrate or live peacefully in their countries.

^ Lots of respectful people in Itaewon but watch from 2:14 to 2:45, if we start singling out race, blame white man and talk about avoid appeasement, it will just confirm the ignorant beliefs about us. You might think "who cares" but I can assure you that we will not be as welcome in other parts  of the world if we start talking about blaming other races. Do that and we're kissing places like Itaewon goodbye.

I am not too keen on this video but look at 3:24, isn't that just sad?^

^ Look at this, I don't mean to be a fear-monger but we live in an era where we have to be really careful with what we say, because we are Muslim. The Muslim identity transcends any feeble notion of race. Anyone who wants to blame anything on race is not a Muslim . So why blame white man?  Are you saying that Muslims should not appease white reverts? Why would I  need to be, I don't have any demands except to be respected as a fellow Muslim.

[AnotherShepherd]

GC, I've grown weary of the ethnocentrism I've witnessed in the shia community. It's unfortunate, but true. 

[Gaius I. Caesar]

3 hours ago, AnotherShepherd said:

GC, I've grown weary of the ethnocentrism I've witnessed in the shia community. It's unfortunate, but true. 

Hmm, I haven't really gotten a chance to witness it but some of the comments on this forum...

[Ashvazdanghe]

Blood Donation Campaign on Birth Anniv. of Imam Hussain in Hannover, Germany

April 21, 2018 - 2:14 PM News Code : 890220 Source : ABNA24Link:   

Blood donation campaign was held on birth anniversary of Imam Hussain in Hannover, Germany 20 April 2018.

 

http://en.abna24.com/news/pictures/blood-donation-campaign-on-birth-anniv-of-imam-hussain-in-hannover-germany_890220.html

[iraqi_shia]

13 hours ago, 786:) said:

I would love to reform a thing or two. Nope I follow a mix of maraja that sound the most convincing in a subject. I used to advocate for zanjeer and the whole circus before. So before you jump to any conclusions please keep that in mind. I am a prisoner to logic and reason. I don’t hold my preconceived opinions if they are shredded to pieces with reason.

You say your a prisioner to logic.

So you are not a mujtahid, eg your not an expert, but you use your own judgement to decide which marja to follow based on what sounds the most convincing to your lay opinion?

This makes no sense. If 10 experts in religion came to you, and they were well known and respected and said , marja X is very knowledgeable , the most knowledgeable. On what basis can you ignore this expert advice to follow your own , less expert advice?

[iraqi_shia]

14 hours ago, ShiaMan14 said:

Brother -  there is no flaw. Hussain is closer to any shia's heart than any family member. So what people do for Hussain should not compared to what people do for others. As a matter of fact, the soyem and arbaeen for family members is also observed by discussing the trials and tribulations of Hussain (as).

I will say again - we should separate the act from the place. Women are not allowed to pray in public; we don't condemn praying but the place. Similar for tatbir or any act of faith for that matter.

Yes there is a flaw. 

Listen, please dont patronize me and say that these people love Imam Husain so much, they cant control themselves and this is the only act that seems worthy. Thats nonsense.

In every corner of the world there is massive oppression. I rarely see any shias desperate to get to these locations to help out. For example, all those in India and Pakistan who are doing these things, why dont they go on a march to Burma for the Rohingya? Lets see that love be expressed in a meaningful way if it true. 

However, my theory is that these acts are actually not motivated by serious and deep respect for the Imam, hence why we see the "love" being manifested in selective ways.

[AnotherShepherd]

9 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Blood Donation Campaign on Birth Anniv. of Imam Hussain in Hannover, Germany

April 21, 2018 - 2:14 PM News Code : 890220 Source : ABNA24Link:   

Blood donation campaign was held on birth anniversary of Imam Hussain in Hannover, Germany 20 April 2018.

 

http://en.abna24.com/news/pictures/blood-donation-campaign-on-birth-anniv-of-imam-hussain-in-hannover-germany_890220.html

What is your opinion on the cyclical celebration of birth and death for the masomeen in the jafar'i school?

[ShiaMan14]

15 hours ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

Still no excuse, I mean I see some on here refer to China, Japan and Korea as the "West"; Not that they are right  but even then they share some of the same values and think we cannot integrate or live peacefully in their countries.

^ Lots of respectful people in Itaewon but watch from 2:14 to 2:45, if we start singling out race, blame white man and talk about avoid appeasement, it will just confirm the ignorant beliefs about us. You might think "who cares" but I can assure you that we will not be as welcome in other parts  of the world if we start talking about blaming other races. Do that and we're kissing places like Itaewon goodbye.

I am not too keen on this video but look at 3:24, isn't that just sad?^

 

The thing is I am not blaming "the West" for the rest wanting to appease them. It's a colonial mindset the non-whites possess so I am condemning that mindset, not the white race.

15 hours ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

Look at this, I don't mean to be a fear-monger but we live in an era where we have to be really careful with what we say, because we are Muslim. The Muslim identity transcends any feeble notion of race. Anyone who wants to blame anything on race is not a Muslim . So why blame white man?  Are you saying that Muslims should not appease white reverts? Why would I  need to be, I don't have any demands except to be respected as a fellow Muslim.

That is exactly what I am saying. Islam transcends race so we should not determine our practices based on what someone might think. You respect others but don't take your faith from them.

15 hours ago, AnotherShepherd said:

GC, I've grown weary of the ethnocentrism I've witnessed in the shia community. It's unfortunate, but true. 

Not just among shias but most Commonwealth countries...or any country that was a former European colony.

Simple story: I went to Indonesia with an employee of mine (he reported to me). We were having a driver pick us up. Both of us walk out together, the driver immediately took Nigel 's bags from him. Nigel says to me, "I guess I am the boss here" . We had a nice chuckle. This mindset is prevalant.

Edited April 22, 2018 by ShiaMan14

[ShiaMan14]

5 hours ago, iraqi_shia said:

Yes there is a flaw. 

Listen, please dont patronize me and say that these people love Imam Husain so much, they cant control themselves and this is the only act that seems worthy. Thats nonsense.

In every corner of the world there is massive oppression. I rarely see any shias desperate to get to these locations to help out. For example, all those in India and Pakistan who are doing these things, why dont they go on a march to Burma for the Rohingya? Lets see that love be expressed in a meaningful way if it true. 

Well you don't support tatbir but you are not their either...I figured it would become a Indo-European thing. How about the thousands of Arabs who do qama. How many of them are helping the Rohingya? 

5 hours ago, iraqi_shia said:

However, my theory is that these acts are actually not motivated by serious and deep respect for the Imam, hence why we see the "love" being manifested in selective ways.

My theory is you are just another shia who sits around judging other shias.

If I was like you, I would sit around and judge all the Iraqis who create Ashura plays and say they are " actually not motivated by serious and deep respect for the Imam  " but I am not like you. I respect the mourner and not question his/her sincerity.