Can't shake the paganistic rites/rituals/tradition

[ShiaMan14]

45 minutes ago, Ibn Al-Shahid said:

@Intellectual Resistance Absolute hogwash. Your "philosophy" is based on mere conjecture and not actual study. When you are talking about art, especially stylised art, you need the background of the style, where it formed, amongst whom it formed. When you are talking about the acts of "homosexuals" you need social and psychological studies and references to know why certain people act a certain way, because it doesn’t come out of thin air. I bet you’re the type of person that looks at impressionist paintings and thinks "now that’s art" while they were labelled and considered as terrorists (les intransigents) during their beginnings. It gets on my nerves when people just post without actual research. Right now you’re resisting, just not intellectually.

i’ll have to withdraw from this discussion as this will go absolutely nowhere.

وعليكم السلام

The "homosexual" reference is more of a reflection of @Intellectual Resistance low mindset rather than the mindset of the artist. 

Actual research shows that beauty has different standards across the world and definitely does not depend on the whims of a person who suffers deeply from inferiority complex.

[ShiaMan14]

8 hours ago, ali_fatheroforphans said:

These people who engage in such rituals do it because that is what their forefathers did. They don't bother reading Islamic books or understanding the traditions of Ahlulbayt (as).

You guys need to make up your mind - some of you are saying these are new innovations. You are saying this is done because of their forefathers. Make up your mind please.

[ShiaMan14]

5 hours ago, Intellectual Resistance said:

If we rolled back the time to our Aimmah (asws) and the Salafi of our Madhab and the great scholars that shortly followed them, you would not find this commonly practised:

1. Taking blades, knives, chains and the like and mutilating oneself. This came much later on and is a relatively modern innovation.

2. People taking their tops off, in unison , and beating their chests red-raw (not just common chest beating). Chest beating the way we do it didn't even exist, though i am not against light chest beating. I remember Nader Zaveri once made a thread about this: http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/234979783-one-hand-matam-or-two-hand-matam/  and that was a cleverly worded question from someone i regard knows more than almost every user on here, barring a very small number i could count on my hand.

3. Rolling around in mud, imitating pigs (as people have accused us of now), so that entire bodies and faces are caked in a thick layer of mud. Some have even started laughing at us claiming Allah has cursed us to be like the unclean animals and act like them, to show the world our deviance. 

4. Hamsa Symbols we decorate with garlands like Hindus do with Idols , and the like.  

When you talk to someone and question the above practises and ask them that, permissible or not (and that his hotly debated anyway among scholars), does it really constitute best practise and further, or harm the aims of the Ahlulbayt asws? They will paint you out to be against Azadari, and act as if relatively recent innovations are somehow a central pillar of our Madhab and true Azadari, whereas they didn't even exist for the majority of the existence of our Madhab and were not done by our Aimmah or the early scholars who paved foundational stones for us. 

I want to perform Azadari like Jaffer ibn Muhammed as-Sadiq (asws). Poetry, dignified mourning, and not the cult-like bizarre innovations of modern day. 

So the first majlis of Hussain (as) was performed on shaam-e-ghariban and then their next day. Imam Sajjad (as) was so overwhelmed with grief that Hz Zainab (as) threw herself of the camel to distract him fearing he would die...or so the story goes. Based on that, shouldn't you want to emulate Imam Sajjad (as) and be so grief-stricken that you get to the point on fainting???

Or go even further back, mourn like the Prophet (saw) mourned for Hz Hamza?

I can cite more examples if necessary. But first, please provide proof in Arabic, farsi and English on how Imam Jaffer (as) mourned for Imam Hussain (as).

[realizm]

@ bro @shiaman14, you advocate weird practices by the fact they have not been explicitly forbidden by sharia. I tend to trust what my fitra tells me, asking myself whether this is what our saint Ahl el Beit (as) would do. Answer is quite obvious regarding mud, knives and other stuff.

And this prevails through everyday life.

[ShiaMan14]

10 minutes ago, realizm said:

@ bro @shiaman14, you advocate weird practices by the fact they have not been explicitly forbidden by sharia. I tend to trust what my fitra tells me, asking myself whether this is what our saint Ahl el Beit (as) would do. Answer is quite obvious regarding mud, knives and other stuff.

And this prevails through everyday life.

Brother - I am not advocating any practice. I am advocating people's right to practice azadari within the boundaries prescribed by our marajae. 

For example, Iraqis do ashura plays during ashura and arbaeen. I am from Pakistan so I find this different but if that is how they choose to remember Hussain, then it is not my place to insult and revile them.

Secular example - Koreans find it normal to eat dogs; westerns reject it; Muslims reject it.

So normal is very subjective and different from culture to culture, region to region, ethnicity to ethnicity.

Wouldn't it be better if all of us just served azadari instead of dictating how we think it should be? 

Edited March 10, 2018 by shiaman14

[Intellectual Resistance]

1 hour ago, Ibn Al-Shahid said:

@Intellectual Resistance Absolute hogwash. Your "philosophy" is based on mere conjecture and not actual study. When you are talking about art, especially stylised art, you need the background of the style, where it formed, amongst whom it formed. When you are talking about the acts of "homosexuals" you need social and psychological studies and references to know why certain people act a certain way, because it doesn’t come out of thin air. I bet you’re the type of person that looks at impressionist paintings and thinks "now that’s art" while they were labelled and considered as terrorists (les intransigents) during their beginnings. It gets on my nerves when people just post without actual research. Right now you’re resisting, just not intellectually.

i’ll have to withdraw from this discussion as this will go absolutely nowhere.

وعليكم السلام

Salamualaykum,

Brother,

Unfortunately, i've made a few points that i feel are worthy of being directly addressed. What you have done is gone on an unrelated aside about people who do not appreciate artistic tastes and styles. As i have mentioned before, and with the utmost of respect, that is irrelevant. 

I need to say this sincerely, but solemnly. Having posted drawings of people trying to represent the Aimmah and even Prophet of God (asws), i made a comment that the pictures appear to be very effeminate, of males who appear to have make up on (and i am not just referring to eye-lashes, or Kohl which i am more than aware of). In response, you stated that in the renaissance, artists drew some symbols of the Christian religion with ambiguity to sex. I responded by stating such a comment isn't relevant - this isn't a thread based on an appreciation of artistic history, style and the like. Rather, it is about what these pictures appear to be to the vast majority of human beings, who have little grounding in sophisticated artistic tastes and styles. They are clearly of effeminate men, who look as though they have make up on. In todays society, such men are mostly part of the homosexual group, who try to put on make up to try to achieve an effeminate look and appearance.

Now, let me put aside my comment on these drawings looking like effeminate men who represent homosexuals. Let me just go by your own knowledge that such artistic drawings are attempts to try to bring forth ambiguity between the sexes. Is it acceptable to be drawing the Aimmah and taking inspiration from people who tried to draw Christian symbols and purposefully made them blurred between the male and female sex?  

36 minutes ago, shiaman14 said:

The "homosexual" reference is more of a reflection of @Intellectual Resistance low mindset rather than the mindset of the artist. 

Actual research shows that beauty has different standards across the world and definitely does not depend on the whims of a person who suffers deeply from inferiority complex.

Aside from rather aimless personal attacks, are you aware of what it is we are discussing here?

This discussion has nothing to do with beauty standards, but rather a specific style of so-called 'art' which tries to blur the difference between sexes. As Ibn al-Shahid had said, some of this art may draw on inspiration from the renaissance, whereby Christian artists tried to draw 'divines' such as Angels or Jesus (as) as neither male nor female precisely, but left ambiguity. That has nothing to do with varying beauty standards. That has everything to do with drawing the Aimmah purposefully with the intention to blur their sex. 

The pictures look like men who have been caked  with make-up, and have been made to look very effeminate, and i don't know any objective minded individual who can not see that. 

[ShiaMan14]

1 minute ago, Intellectual Resistance said:

Aside from rather aimless personal attacks, are you aware of what it is we are discussing here?

This discussion has nothing to do with beauty standards, but rather a specific style of so-called 'art' which tries to blur the difference between sexes. As Ibn al-Shahid had said, some of this art may draw on inspiration from the renaissance, whereby Christian artists tried to draw 'divines' such as Angels or Jesus (as) as neither male nor female precisely, but left ambiguity. That has nothing to do with varying beauty standards. That has everything to do with drawing the Aimmah purposefully with the intention to blur their sex. 

The pictures look like men who have been caked  with make-up, and have been made to look very effeminate, and i don't know any objective minded individual who can not see that. 

Hmmm, the thick eyebrows, thick beard and thick mustache kind of bust your premise.

[Intellectual Resistance]

8 minutes ago, shiaman14 said:

Hmmm, the thick eyebrows, thick beard and thick mustache kind of bust your premise.

So you haven't actually been following the discussion.  While you vehemently agreed with brother Ibn al-Shahid, you actually weren't aware of what it was he was saying, but launched into an attack with a number of personally insulting remarks towards me. I  will bring forth what he has said so you may understand, inshAllah:

9 hours ago, Ibn Al-Shahid said:

Actually, no. This has been done throughout art history. If you look at paintings made during the Renaissance of angels or Jesus you'll see that you cannot say for certain whether the figure is male or female (androgyny). This is to convey the surpassing of normality. They are not human, they're just occupying a human body; they're divine.

Not saying I agree with it, but it is ignorant to speak about art practices without having any knowledge of it.

Ibn al-Shahids problem with me was saying these men looked homosexual. He criticised me for not recognising or having the knowledge what such styles have been used since the renaissance , to depict Christian symbols, and blur the line between sex to convey the notion of surpassing 'normality' and being something more, something not human. Therefore he accepts these pictures and paintings look effeminate, but strongly disagrees with me using the word 'homosexual'. 

Once more, i will allow any objective minded person to look at this image and make their own mind up. 

 

1. Very tweezed and well done eyebrows you rarely see on a guy.

2. Clear make-up under the eye-brows.

3. Clear make-up on the cheeks.

4. Blurring of the lines between masculine and feminine. 

 

Men do not look like this naturally, and this is a clear attempt to blur the line between male and female. The beard does not change anything.  This is what i have been debating with the brother about. I'm not really bothered if there's an artistic style they are imposing, because to the vast majority of people it is pretty clear what sort of idea these image gives. Even if you won't acknowledge that, it is utterly disrespectful to be drawing the Aimmah copying styles which seek to blur genders. 

That is why i have found it extremely bizarre for the respected brother to become frustrated or angry, and make a proverbial 'storm in a tea cup' when this thread has nothing to do with art or artistic styles. It doesn't make a difference or add or retract to our discussion, other than actually validating my points. 

Edited March 10, 2018 by Intellectual Resistance

[Intellectual Resistance]

13 minutes ago, shiaman14 said:

Brother - I am not advocating any practice. I am advocating people's right to practice azadari within the boundaries prescribed by our marajae. 

For example, Iraqis do ashura plays during ashura and arbaeen. I am from Pakistan so I find this different but if that is how they choose to remember Hussain, then it is not my place to insult and revile them.

Secular example - Koreans find it normal to eat dogs; westerns reject it; Muslims reject it.

So normal is very subjective and different from culture to culture, region to region, ethnicity to ethnicity.

Wouldn't it be better if all of us just served azadari instead of dictating how we think it should be? 

Unfortunately, there are some flaws to this kind of mentality. 

Let us for example, say that if someone follows Sayed Sadiq Shirazi, they can perform Tatbir, and can ignore the words of Ay.Khomeini, Khamanei, Makarem Shirazi, Mutahari, et al. So that individual goes out onto the street and violently whips their back with knives and chains, and blood spills onto the ground and their back is covered in deep cuts. They then take a dirty butcher knife - as we see year on year put on tabloids- and cut the scalp of their little baby. One might step back and say 'well, their Marji' allows gore and mutilation in the name of Imam al-Hussain (as) who are we to stop it? The reality is, when someone begins to perform a practise in your name, which you can conclusively prove is against human fitrah (gore, and mutilation), hijacks the actual message of Imam al-Hussain (as) and evokes such a universally disgusted response that overshadows anything else we have to say on the things he stood for, drives people away from Shia Muslims, is used by enemies of Shia Islam, does not paint us as moderate, clean, intelligent, but rather superstitious, barbaric, and backward, then it goes from the territory or 'do what you want' to 'your act is annihilating everything we are standing for'.

You have chosen a lovely example of a play. However, you can hardly compare performing a play, to self-mutilation and gore. The two are earth and sky and are not equally valid points.  Shia men and women, crawling to Shrines , some of them barking or calling themselves the 'Dogs of Imam al-Hussain' as we know has been done, makes a mockery out of all of us. Even the ones who just crawl perform a bizarre practise some Marji' have spoken out against because of the effect it has on our image and just how uncivilised such behaviour is. 

You can have Shia men and women jumping in mud, rolling around, so that other people -especially our enemies- make the clear association between swines who roll around in mud, and then have these people covered in an inch layer of thick, crusted mud looking like otherworldly creatures, or you can have people mourn in sensible, clean, moderate and responsible ways and manners.

When 'Azadari' harms us, introduces us as superstitious and barbaric, drives people away, goes against human decency, overshadows Imam al-Hussain by how outrageous it is, goes against what stand for in moderation, intelligence, cleanliness, wisdom, and the like, then that is when you have to exert your common sense and honestly say, does this truly constitute best practise?

 

[Intellectual Resistance]

58 minutes ago, shiaman14 said:

So the first majlis of Hussain (as) was performed on shaam-e-ghariban and then their next day. Imam Sajjad (as) was so overwhelmed with grief that Hz Zainab (as) threw herself of the camel to distract him fearing he would die...or so the story goes. Based on that, shouldn't you want to emulate Imam Sajjad (as) and be so grief-stricken that you get to the point on fainting???

Or go even further back, mourn like the Prophet (saw) mourned for Hz Hamza?

I can cite more examples if necessary. But first, please provide proof in Arabic, farsi and English on how Imam Jaffer (as) mourned for Imam Hussain (as).

[MOD NOTE: I removed the picture that you keep posting a million times]

Even if it were true, there is no surprise if someone gets so naturally grief-stricken at hearing about the pain and suffering of Muhammed (saw) and his purified progeny , that is a natural emotion you can't control, can you? I was hardly speaking out against emotional reaction, but bizarre cult-like practises that are not mourning.

As for how Imam Jaffer as Sadiq (as) mourned, we know for a fact there was no mutilation of ones body or ones childs body, no use of pagan Hamsa-Looking banners, no rolling in thick mud, no drawing effeminate and sexually ambiguous drawings of Imam al-Hussain (asws), no walking on coal, nor any of the dahalala that are relatively recent innovations.  It's indisputable and i don't need to bring evidence that poetry sessions were held. Women were gathered and weeped- as well as men. No-one can deny these things. Why do i need to bring evidence to something that is widely indisputable?

Theres a marked difference between a man or women naturally grieving to an enormous tragedy, and zealots taking dirty butcher knives and cutting the scalps of children. I'm not making this up, because we see this regularly on tabloids online:

[EDIT]

Edited March 10, 2018 by Hassan-
removed inappropriate picture

[Intellectual Resistance]

58 minutes ago, realizm said:

@ bro @shiaman14, you advocate weird practices by the fact they have not been explicitly forbidden by sharia. I tend to trust what my fitra tells me, asking myself whether this is what our saint Ahl el Beit (as) would do. Answer is quite obvious regarding mud, knives and other stuff.

And this prevails through everyday life.

[MOD NOTE: @Intellectual Resistance stop posting pictures of kids being cut by knives, I already warned you in your previous post.]

Response: Apologies brother Hasan. I didn't read your previous comment. The reality is, these images are from well known and famous , mainstream UK news websites, and tabloids, and the ones i posted were from The Daily Mail. I won't post them in the future as i wouldn't even expect animals to want to look at them. How strange that Shias continue to do that to their own children.

At some point, common sense has to prevail. Is doing the following in the name of Imam al-Hussain (asws) acceptable? I don't even think these images will be allowed on SC, where everyone is accustomed to bizarre things. So ponder over what it does to others:

 

 

 

 

Idols:

 

Shia Hamsa-looking banners (I have legitimately hard reliable people give me first hand accounts of seeing people PROSTRATE to these things):

 

Walking on coal:

 

 

 

 

Go and read the comments on the DailyMail webpage this image is posted in: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4938922/Shiite-Muslim-pilgrims-shed-blood-mark-Ashura.html

 

 

 

 

And no-one speaks out? Wallahi, the pure Madhab of Muhammed and ale Muhammed (asws) is being butchered by the ones who claim to love and follow them. 

Edited March 10, 2018 by Intellectual Resistance
removed inappropriate picture

[Intellectual Resistance]

@Hassan-

Apologies. I didn't read your comment on my other post. Suffice to say these are images that are on known UK news websites, such as the Daily Mail and the like. It speaks volumes that seasoned Shias can't stomach these images, but somehow, we expect everyone else to. The very fact you have asked me not to post them speaks volumes, and in future i won't inshAllah.

Edited March 10, 2018 by Intellectual Resistance

[786:)]

1 hour ago, shiaman14 said:

Brother - I am not advocating any practice. I am advocating people's right to practice azadari within the boundaries prescribed by our marajae. 

For example, Iraqis do ashura plays during ashura and arbaeen. I am from Pakistan so I find this different but if that is how they choose to remember Hussain, then it is not my place to insult and revile them.

Secular example - Koreans find it normal to eat dogs; westerns reject it; Muslims reject it.

So normal is very subjective and different from culture to culture, region to region, ethnicity to ethnicity.

Wouldn't it be better if all of us just served azadari instead of dictating how we think it should be? 

Hmm so basically you're a civil rights activist for Malangs now. I knew it!

Jokes aside, you claim that everyone has their right to perform azadari in the way they choose as long as it does not go beyond the bounds of Sharia? Okay, so let's say I decide to start a new method of azadari by shooting myself in the foot to feel the pain of Imam Hussain (as) and his companions.

No one has the right to critique me? We should all wait on Ayatollah X to speak on it?

Edited March 10, 2018 by 786:)

[ShiaMan14]

2 hours ago, Intellectual Resistance said:

So you haven't actually been following the discussion.  While you vehemently agreed with brother Ibn al-Shahid, you actually weren't aware of what it was he was saying, but launched into an attack with a number of personally insulting remarks towards me. I  will bring forth what he has said so you may understand, inshAllah:

Ibn al-Shahids problem with me was saying these men looked homosexual. He criticised me for not recognising or having the knowledge what such styles have been used since the renaissance , to depict Christian symbols, and blur the line between sex to convey the notion of surpassing 'normality' and being something more, something not human. Therefore he accepts these pictures and paintings look effeminate, but strongly disagrees with me using the word 'homosexual'. 

Once more, i will allow any objective minded person to look at this image and make their own mind up. 

 

1. Very tweezed and well done eyebrows you rarely see on a guy.

2. Clear make-up under the eye-brows.

3. Clear make-up on the cheeks.

4. Blurring of the lines between masculine and feminine. 

 

Men do not look like this naturally, and this is a clear attempt to blur the line between male and female. The beard does not change anything.  This is what i have been debating with the brother about. I'm not really bothered if there's an artistic style they are imposing, because to the vast majority of people it is pretty clear what sort of idea these image gives. Even if you won't acknowledge that, it is utterly disrespectful to be drawing the Aimmah copying styles which seek to blur genders. 

That is why i have found it extremely bizarre for the respected brother to become frustrated or angry, and make a proverbial 'storm in a tea cup' when this thread has nothing to do with art or artistic styles. It doesn't make a difference or add or retract to our discussion, other than actually validating my points. 

Lol. I was following the discussion. Being gender-neutral or effeminate is completely different from being homosexual. Your "extensive" research should have told you that but we've seen your "extensive" research to be nothing more than watching 1-2 YouTube videos.

2 hours ago, Intellectual Resistance said:

Unfortunately, there are some flaws to this kind of mentality. 

Let us for example, say that if someone follows Sayed Sadiq Shirazi, they can perform Tatbir, and can ignore the words of Ay.Khomeini, Khamanei, Makarem Shirazi, Mutahari, et al. So that individual goes out onto the street and violently whips their back with knives and chains, and blood spills onto the ground and their back is covered in deep cuts. They then take a dirty butcher knife - as we see year on year put on tabloids- and cut the scalp of their little baby. One might step back and say 'well, their Marji' allows gore and mutilation in the name of Imam al-Hussain (as) who are we to stop it? The reality is, when someone begins to perform a practise in your name, which you can conclusively prove is against human fitrah (gore, and mutilation), hijacks the actual message of Imam al-Hussain (as) and evokes such a universally disgusted response that overshadows anything else we have to say on the things he stood for, drives people away from Shia Muslims, is used by enemies of Shia Islam, does not paint us as moderate, clean, intelligent, but rather superstitious, barbaric, and backward, then it goes from the territory or 'do what you want' to 'your act is annihilating everything we are standing for'.

This is the same illogical statement another brother called Tawheed313 used to make. Hopefully you are not him with another account. Anyway, his theory and your theory is completely blown to shreds when we look at the thousands of people accepting shia islam every year. If you can provide sufficient evidence on the number of people waiting time accept shia islam as soon as tatbir is completely banned, then let's continue this discussion.

2 hours ago, Intellectual Resistance said:

You have chosen a lovely example of a play. However, you can hardly compare performing a play, to self-mutilation and gore. The two are earth and sky and are not equally valid points.  Shia men and women, crawling to Shrines , some of them barking or calling themselves the 'Dogs of Imam al-Hussain' as we know has been done, makes a mockery out of all of us. Even the ones who just crawl perform a bizarre practise some Marji' have spoken out against because of the effect it has on our image and just how uncivilised such behaviour is. 

The only discussion is whether an act is permissible or not. Once it is deemed permissible, then it becomes subjective and up to the individual to do it, not do it, etc.

2 hours ago, Intellectual Resistance said:

You can have Shia men and women jumping in mud, rolling around, so that other people -especially our enemies- make the clear association between swines who roll around in mud, and then have these people covered in an inch layer of thick, crusted mud looking like otherworldly creatures, or you can have people mourn in sensible, clean, moderate and responsible ways and manners.

Even if you do the above in bold, our enemies will call you kaffir. You can live your life trying to appease our enemies. I don't suffer from any such inferiority complex.

2 hours ago, Intellectual Resistance said:

When 'Azadari' harms us, introduces us as superstitious and barbaric, drives people away, goes against human decency, overshadows Imam al-Hussain by how outrageous it is, goes against what stand for in moderation, intelligence, cleanliness, wisdom, and the like, then that is when you have to exert your common sense and honestly say, does this truly constitute best practise?

Once again, factless and baseless claims. The fact that we have reverts clearly counters the argument. Tawheed313 couldn't bring facts, perhaps you can.

Edited March 11, 2018 by shiaman14

[ShiaMan14]

2 hours ago, Intellectual Resistance said:

[MOD NOTE: I removed the picture that you keep posting a million times]

Even if it were true, there is no surprise if someone gets so naturally grief-stricken at hearing about the pain and suffering of Muhammed (saw) and his purified progeny , that is a natural emotion you can't control, can you? I was hardly speaking out against emotional reaction, but bizarre cult-like practises that are not mourning.

You were pretty clear, "  Poetry, dignified mourning,  ". Give me an exact count of tears that can flow and how many decibels should the lamentations get. Hadith to prove it of course.

2 hours ago, Intellectual Resistance said:

As for how Imam Jaffer as Sadiq (as) mourned, we know for a fact there was no mutilation of ones body or ones childs body, no use of pagan Hamsa-Looking banners, no rolling in thick mud, no drawing effeminate and sexually ambiguous drawings of Imam al-Hussain (asws), no walking on coal, nor any of the dahalala that are relatively recent innovations.  It's indisputable and i don't need to bring evidence that poetry sessions were held. Women were gathered and weeped- as well as men. No-one can deny these things. Why do i need to bring evidence to something that is widely indisputable?

Theres a marked difference between a man or women naturally grieving to an enormous tragedy, and zealots taking dirty butcher knives and cutting the scalps of children. I'm not making this up, because we see this regularly on tabloids online:

These are newer practices which no one is arguing but we need evidence they have been forbidden and not your whim.

I will repeat again - you sitting in the West making judgement calls about people thousands of miles away is simply ignorant and narrow-minded. From where I am sitting, you come off as a bigger zealot that those people. At least they mind their business and do what they can (wrong or right). People like you sit on the sidelines and only criticizes.  If you think I am making personal attacks against you, you are wrong. I am defending the people who are not here.

[ali_fatheroforphans]

3 hours ago, shiaman14 said:

You guys need to make up your mind - some of you are saying these are new innovations. You are saying this is done because of their forefathers. Make up your mind please.

Man I'm not really concerned about when exactly these practices were started, whether in the 12th century or 13th or whenever. The fact is that we do it blindly without any sort of research. Majority of the Indo-Pak community that engage in certain practices such as tatbir, are not scholars or educated in matters of religion. These people only do it because they have an emotional attachment to Imam Hussein (as). 

[ShiaMan14]

2 hours ago, Intellectual Resistance said:

[MOD NOTE: @Intellectual Resistance stop posting pictures of kids being cut by knives, I already warned you in your previous post.]

Response: Apologies brother Hasan. I didn't read your previous comment. The reality is, these images are from well known and famous , mainstream UK news websites, and tabloids, and the ones i posted were from The Daily Mail. I won't post them in the future as i wouldn't even expect animals to want to look at them. How strange that Shias continue to do that to their own children.

At some point, common sense has to prevail. Is doing the following in the name of Imam al-Hussain (asws) acceptable? I don't even think these images will be allowed on SC, where everyone is accustomed to bizarre things. So ponder over what it does to others:

 

 

 

 

Idols:

 

Shia Hamsa-looking banners (I have legitimately hard reliable people give me first hand accounts of seeing people PROSTRATE to these things):

 

Walking on coal:

 

 

 

 

Go and read the comments on the DailyMail webpage this image is posted in: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4938922/Shiite-Muslim-pilgrims-shed-blood-mark-Ashura.html

 

 

 

 

And no-one speaks out? Wallahi, the pure Madhab of Muhammed and ale Muhammed (asws) is being butchered by the ones who claim to love and follow them. 

Why carry any flags aka Alam when clearly this practice started well before Islam. Did the Prophet copy pagans? The hand is to signify the hands of Abbas and not hamsa.

So I went through the Daily Mail article (Tawheed313???). Can you please point out where they maligned the shias for tatbir? If anything, it gives us 1 news cycle and there is no such thing as bad publicity...is there?

[ShiaMan14]

1 hour ago, 786:) said:

Hmm so basically you're a civil rights activist for Malangs now. I knew it!

Jokes aside, you claim that everyone has their right to perform azadari in the way they choose as long as it does not go beyond the bounds of Sharia? Okay, so let's say I decide to start a new method of azadari by shooting myself in the foot to feel the pain of Imam Hussain (as) and his companions.

No one has the right to critique me? We should all wait on Ayatollah X to speak on it?

What kind of gun and bullet would you be using? Discharging a weapon is a criminal offense in most places and no one advocates breaking the law.

You need to come up with a better scenarios if you want to ridicule someone.

BTW, the people in mud and other pictures are Arabs who are not Malang since they don't even know the term. Once again, you need to do better.

[ali_fatheroforphans]

@shiaman14 What is the difference between us and Hindus, if we literally start any practice and let our future generations follow it. We're starting these rituals based on our own desires and emotional needs, not what is based on logic or the teachings of Ahlulbayt (as). 

Our actions carry a lot of weight, since we claim to be Shias and we shouldn't think that any practice we engage in, will be accepted by our Imams (as). There is nothing to lose if we abandon these practices.

After all, our love for Imam Hussein(as) is based on whether we can stay away from sins, not if we can smack our head with blades.

 

[ali_fatheroforphans]

Also, if certain Ayatollahs forbid a practice and some don't, then any logical person would take precaution by not following the latter.

Edited March 11, 2018 by ali_fatheroforphans

[ShiaMan14]

2 hours ago, ali_fatheroforphans said:

Man I'm not really concerned about when exactly these practices were started, whether in the 12th century or 13th or whenever. The fact is that we do it blindly without any sort of research. Majority of the Indo-Pak community that engage in certain practices such as tatbir, are not scholars or educated in matters of religion. 

Most of the pictures people circulate are from Arab regions of people who do qama to themselves and their kids. I can just as well say that majority of people are not well-versed in their faith - across all religions.

2 hours ago, ali_fatheroforphans said:

These people only do it because they have an emotional attachment to Imam Hussein (as). 

Heck yeah - everything I do in azadari is because of my emotional attachment to Imam Hussain (as). I would say that is why everyone does what they do for azadari.

Doesn't mean I don't have a spiritual and mental attachment to him as well.

[ShiaMan14]

2 hours ago, ali_fatheroforphans said:

@shiaman14 What is the difference between us and Hindus, if we literally start any practice and let our future generations follow it. We're starting these rituals based on our own desires and emotional needs, not what is based on logic or the teachings of Ahlulbayt (as). 

Our actions carry a lot of weight, since we claim to be Shias and we shouldn't think that any practice we engage in, will be accepted by our Imams (as). There is nothing to lose if we abandon these practices.

After all, our love for Imam Hussein(as) is based on whether we can stay away from sins, not if we can smack our head with blades.

Bro - which is why I keep repeating "within the boundaries of sharia as prescribed by one's own marja"

Difference between us and Hindus is that we are not worshiping Imam Hussain (as). Now some people will say "these people worship Imam Hussain" which is completely wrong since no one knows what is in their hearts. 

[Ahmed_516478]

Its quite beautiful. People from different cultures expressing their love for our master Imam Hussain (as), the lamb of God.  I think its analogous to the use of poetry/noha/latimiyya/etc. The styles arabs use are different than that indians/pakistanis will use. To give an example would it be wrong to black American shia to incorporate the use of rap, as it is just a style of poetry, to express their wilayah to the imams (as)? Perhaps to some people it would be seen as disrespectful to the status of the imams (as) but to others it is the way they truly express their deepest feelings in poetry. Becoming Muslim does not entail adopting arab culture nor does it entail the destruction of one's own culture. 

[ShiaMan14]

13 minutes ago, Shi3i_jadeed said:

Its quite beautiful. People from different cultures expressing their love for our master Imam Hussain (as), the lamb of God.  I think its analogous to the use of poetry/noha/latimiyya/etc. The styles arabs use are different than that indians/pakistanis will use. To give an example would it be wrong to black American shia to incorporate the use of rap, as it is just a style of poetry, to express their wilayah to the imams (as)? Perhaps to some people it would be seen as disrespectful to the status of the imams (as) but to others it is the way they truly express their deepest feelings in poetry. Becoming Muslim does not entail adopting arab culture nor does it entail the destruction of one's own culture. 

Thank you for putting it so eloquently brother. It's the universality of Imam Hussain (as) that we should cherish instead of trying to get everyone to conform to what think is the right way.

[ali_fatheroforphans]

47 minutes ago, shiaman14 said:

Bro - which is why I keep repeating "within the boundaries of sharia as prescribed by one's own marja"

Difference between us and Hindus is that we are not worshiping Imam Hussain (as). Now some people will say "these people worship Imam Hussain" which is completely wrong since no one knows what is in their hearts. 

Alright I gave my opinion and I'll end it here. I have a feeling this argument will go nowhere. I'll learn to respect others.

You are free to refer to the opinion of your marja.

Edited March 11, 2018 by ali_fatheroforphans

[Sirius_Bright]

7 hours ago, Intellectual Resistance said:

sexually ambiguous drawings of Imam al-Hussain

Do you feel a bit of shame for using this kind of sentence again and again for an infallible. From nowhere the picture looks like what you describe. I know sunnis consider it haram drawing pictures of holy personalities but find a better argument if you want to reject a particular act. I remember once Tawheed313 (if it's not you) wrote something insulting about Janabe Fatema (sa) and whole shiachat went mad on him. 

[ShiaMan14]

1 hour ago, ali_fatheroforphans said:

Alright I gave my opinion and I'll end it here. I have a feeling this argument will go nowhere. I'll learn to respect others.

You are free to refer to the opinion of your marja.

Thank you brother. I have traveled around the world and almost all places respect my beliefs (eating zabihah, etc.) And so I too respect all cultures and their beliefs...even if I don't agree with them.

36 minutes ago, Sirius_Bright said:

Do you feel a bit of shame for using this kind of sentence again and again for an infallible. From nowhere the picture looks like what you describe. I know sunnis consider it haram drawing pictures of holy personalities but find a better argument if you want to reject a particular act. I remember once Tawheed313 (if it's not you) wrote something insulting about Janabe Fatema (sa) and whole shiachat went mad on him. 

That is what I am saying. I have been to Iraq 3 times and seen these pictures in the market hundreds of times and never thought about the "sexuality" portrayed in them. 

This simply speaks volumes about @Intellectual Resistance than the pictures themselves.

 

[Sumerian]

Drawing and painting the Imams (as) is an interesting topic. It's not just Sunnis who have an issue with picture illustration, many of our scholars do. 

This is what Shaykh Al-Khorasani says about this topic;

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235031422-shaikh-waheed-khurasani-on-making-pictures-of-imam/

[Hassan-]

10 minutes ago, kirtc said:

out of all the mentioned.. I think only tatbir is present in lebanon..

and honestly I have seen enough to judge the type of people that do it.. I dont know about other countries but here it is haraket amal, these guys are thugs that are known to be thieves and extortionists. I saw manly women walking down ashura like wearing baggy jeans with their head bleading.. i even saw a pregnant lady that cut her head.. these people only become shia in ashura.. I saw one try to steal the sadaka box... 

these guys are only about show and clinging to an identity and trying to show everyone they are tough.. funny thing is none of them go to syria to fight.

I don't think they can do that publicly in south lebanon, they will probably be tossed in jail by the police.

[S.M.H.A.]

This is a deep Abyss, and we should Not approach it. 

As with any Ritual, Obligatory included. We do not know the Intentions of the person. 

Plus its has a political and nationalistic angle to it. 

Argument could be made from both angle, Tough guys vs Nerds ( kind of revenge of the iNerds situation,) how much of it is Their Islamic/Fiqhi concerns and how much is their personal insecurity they may feel, it they not well built , weak( fickle ones) view this an a manly or competitive issue. We know some boys might just faint at the sight of blood. So, there could be many reason they may choose to vent on line. Some who do it, may have Pride issues, and may make others feel inferior. etc...

social shia may chime in,zangeer  as this may  beach or swimming pools image issue, they may just get on the bangwagon to find like minded people  or justify whatever feelings 

We can see competitive nature in obligatory Rituals, who performs more, prayers, fasting etc.. and we always have a disgruntled / feeling of a lesser person etc..

Even in Scholars, Pride or competitive nature is present, Why this one is the Grand Scholar and why I am not, or I am the Grand scholar and all the good stuff that comes with .

Plus funding issues, centers or organizations that receive monetary funding, favor a particular view, of their Banker. 

 

There are all host of issues, so its very complicated. A case could be made form all angles and sides and not a pretty picture. Khawarij, get involved and they scan the landscape and if the issue suits them they will toe the line and wrap themselves in flag or align  themselves with the dominant group to exploit the situation. Complex situation is a Virtual and faceless medium. Divide and conquer fits the landscape.

Edited March 11, 2018 by S.M.H.A.

[Panzerwaffe]

My question to both sunni and shia

 

Can we subtract Arab cultural customs and norms  of 7th to 8th century from Islam? 

 

[Ashvazdanghe]

31 minutes ago, Panzerwaffe said:

My question to both sunni and shia

 

Can we subtract Arab cultural customs and norms  of 7th to 8th century from Islam? 

 

Salam if it is a false culture and norm it is possible 

          Mr .Raefipoor starts this campaign in last Muharram 

[S.M.H.A.]

2 hours ago, kirtc said:

out of all the mentioned.. I think only tatbir is present in lebanon..

and honestly I have seen enough to judge the type of people that do it.. I dont know about other countries but here it is haraket amal, these guys are thugs that are known to be thieves and extortionists. I saw manly women walking down ashura like wearing baggy jeans with their head bleading.. i even saw a pregnant lady that cut her head.. these people only become shia in ashura.. I saw one try to steal the sadaka box... 

these guys are only about show and clinging to an identity and trying to show everyone they are tough.. funny thing is none of them go to syria to fight.

You know what kind of people enlisted in early Islam. From different backgrounds and with different kind of baggage. Some accepted after the fall of Mecca. We do not have an issue with that, they were  supposed to be reformed,shown the straight path and its takes time and habits change over time. (not suitable given the Top or the strategic posts).

Azadari is a kind of a halfway house, and one of the reason it can't be managed ( except for some blatant violation of the establish clear Law,) so called muslims, from various backgrounds and pasts, cultures, societies, family backgrounds, their current profession or lifestyle may be not what you would like, non muslims, hindu, christian, jews, non believers come to the Aza. These are guest of Son of Fatima Az Zahra(sa), we treat them with utmost respect. They are honored guests. May be they will find a way, from the Azadari / Husania programs and rituals to the Mosque.  They may express their love and grief in different ways, write poems based on their cultural and social background

Their love of Human Values/Sacrifice for Humanity brings them to these events. They understand this was a war between humanity and inhumanity. A good starting point. 

*****

"When they set out to leave, the people [with Hurr] prevented them from going. So al-Husayn (as) said to Hurr: “May your mother mourn for your death! What do you want?!”

He replied: “By Allah! If any of the Arabs other than you were to say that to me even though he were in the same situation as you, I would not leave him without mentioning his mother being deprived of him, whoever he might be. But -by Allah- there is no way for me to mention your mother except by [saying] the best things possible!”48

https://www.al-islam.org/event-taff-earliest-historical-account-tragedy-karbala-abu-mikhnaf/stations-way-kufah#dhu-husam

Edited March 11, 2018 by S.M.H.A.

[Sirius_Bright]

3 hours ago, kirtc said:

out of all the mentioned.. I think only tatbir is present in lebanon..

and honestly I have seen enough to judge the type of people that do it.. I dont know about other countries but here it is haraket amal, these guys are thugs that are known to be thieves and extortionists. I saw manly women walking down ashura like wearing baggy jeans with their head bleading.. i even saw a pregnant lady that cut her head.. these people only become shia in ashura.. I saw one try to steal the sadaka box... 

these guys are only about show and clinging to an identity and trying to show everyone they are tough.. funny thing is none of them go to syria to fight.

If you are specifically talking about tatbiris then I know people who perform tatbir and also do not miss Namaz e Shab. Some of them are really very pious. They neither take namaz lightly nor will you get an equivalent azadar anywhere. So it's a bad idea to generalize like this. 

[S.M.H.A.]

Quote

1. It is necessary for a Muslim to believe in the fundamentals of faith on the basis of proof and he cannot follow anyone in this respect i.e. he cannot accept he word of another with regard to the fundamentals without demanding proof.

However, in order to act on Islamic code (except in those matters which are considered by all to be indisputable e.g. the obligatory nature of the five daily prayers, fasting during the holy month of Ramadan etc.) a person must adopt one of the following methods:

https://www.al-islam.org/islamic-laws-ayatullah-abul-qasim-al-khui/taqlid

In General , Rulings on All Obligatory Acts are listed  in the Jurists Islamic Law Books. 

Najaf, Iraq

Grand Ayatullah Sayyid Ali Husaini Sistani

http://www.sistani.org/english/

 

Grand Ayatullah Sheikh Basheer Hussain Al-Najafi

http://www.alnajafi.org/messages/164-imamaliwiladat2012.htm

 

*****

Grand Ayatollah Sayyid Ali Hosseini Khamenei

http://www.leader.ir/en

 

Qum, Iran

Ayatullah al-ᶜUzma Shaykh Husayn Vahid Khorasani

http://wahidkhorasani.com/English

 

Edited March 11, 2018 by S.M.H.A.