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When the women is jealous

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On 07/03/2018 at 11:23 PM, P. Ease said:

Jealousy is bad. All ahadith that go against the Quran are false. Even if it has a golden chain from all imams (as) up to the prophet (saws). Never once has jealousy been a good thing in the Quran, whatever gender. Peace.

Where does the Holy Qur'an say all jealousy is bad? 

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On 3/9/2018 at 6:44 AM, Sumerian said:

Where does the Holy Qur'an say all jealousy is bad? 

The story of Prophet Yusif (AS) started when his own brothers were jealous of him and plotted against him (wanted to kill him), which obviously points to jealousy being a destructive thing. 

How about Prophet Adam's (AS) sons? It was another story about jealousy. 

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21 hours ago, Islandsandmirrors said:

The story of Prophet Yusif (AS) started when his own brothers were jealous of him and plotted against him (wanted to kill him), which obviously points to jealousy being a destructive thing. 

How about Prophet Adam's (AS) sons? It was another story about jealousy. 

Those are example of bad jealousy and mostly pertail to hasad. What we are talking about is gheera, which differs.

An example of good gheera would be; a man should not sit back and let another man have a relationship with his wife. That's good jealousy, wherein it stems from protection.

Abbas (as) has a nickname, Abu'l Gheera (Father of Jealousy) because he was jealous for his family and that he would protect them at all costs.

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1 minute ago, Sumerian said:

Those are example of bad jealousy and mostly pertail to hasad. What we are talking about is gheera, which differs.

An example of good gheera would be; a man should not sit back and let another man have a relationship with his wife. That's good jealousy, wherein it stems from protection.

Abbas (as) has a nickname, Abu'l Gheera (Father of Jealousy) because he was jealous for his family and that he would protect them at all costs.

Please refrain from translating gheera into jealousy, it just feeds the misconception and the controversy. 

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2 hours ago, Sumerian said:

Those are example of bad jealousy and mostly pertail to hasad. What we are talking about is gheera, which differs.

An example of good gheera would be; a man should not sit back and let another man have a relationship with his wife. That's good jealousy, wherein it stems from protection.

Abbas (as) has a nickname, Abu'l Gheera (Father of Jealousy) because he was jealous for his family and that he would protect them at all costs.

I understand what you’re saying, however, I’m not sure if gheera is exactly described as “jealousy”. While that might be the literal translation of “gheera”, the examples you provide point more to protection and defending/providing from harm. I would be doing the same thing if women were trying to get my SO’s attention. It’s not jealousy that would lead me to be protective. 

I guess there isn’t an accurate enough word in the English language to describe “gheera”. 

Edited by Islandsandmirrors

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12 hours ago, Sumerian said:

How else would it be translated then? 

There is no good translation for gheerah to english, maybe male protective vigilance is a better term.

As I said brother:

I think jealousy is a bad word and not fitting for describing the concept applied to men.

Gheerah in islam is much different from jealousy.

For example:

If a man speaks inappropriately to my sister or acts in an inappropriate manner, I will not feel jealousy towards that man, I will not envy him for getting my sisters attention. But I will feel gheerat, which steams from my care to protect my sister against harm from men.

I dont think jealousy is a good translation of the concept, I dont think there is a word for it in english but jealousy as we know it is not good whether for women or men. Whatever the context is, whether you see a man richer than you or with a nicer car than you.

Gheerah is something completely different. Something good and something that protects the family and those you care about and in extend society as it prevents indecent behavior. 

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On 2018-03-07 at 1:23 PM, starlight said:

Some years back when I started working in ob/gyn there was a couple who used to come to us for antenatal checkups. It was their first baby. Always accompanying  the husband and wife was another woman roughly the same age as wife. She used to be very caring towards the pregnant lady helping her up etc. I assumed she would be a sister in law or cousin but I later came to know she was the first wife! After trying unsuccessfully to conceive for years(do not know the exact reason for the couple's infertility) she got her husband married to her best friend who due to certain family circumstances was facing difficulties in finding a good match. The two lived in the same house and got along well. The couple had their first child, a baby girl, which the second wife gave to the first to raise as her own.

Is there any reason why an infertile husband should deny his wife/wives the same help?

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12 hours ago, Sumerian said:

How else would it be translated then? 

 

Hadith n. 47

47. Amir al-mu'minin, peace be upon him, said: The worth of a man is according to his courage, his truthfulness is according to his balance of temper, his valour is according to his self-respect and his chasteness is according to his sense of shame.

47. وقال عليه السلام : قَدْرُ الرَّجُلِ عَلَى قَدْرِ هِمَّتِهِ، وَصِدْقُهُ عَلَى قَدْرِ مُرُوءَتِهِ، وَشَجَاعَتُهُ عَلَى قَدْرِ أَنَفَتِهِ،عِفَّتُهُ عَلَى قَدْرِ غَيْرَتِهِ

https://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-2-letters-and-sayings/selections-sayings-and-preaching-amir-al-muminin-ali#hadith-n-47

Misogynist?

Was Imam ‘Ali a Misogynist? The Portrayal of Women in Nahj al-Balaghah and Kitab Sulaym ibn Qays
The authenticity of the information in Nahjul Balagha is rarely challenged. The present book aims to challenge the authenticity of some of the passages present in Nahjul Balagha regarding women through three means: a traditional approach, textual criticism and comparing texts regarding the treatment of women. There is a belief that some material may have been attributed to Imam Ali (as) posthumously, thus painting him as a misogynist.

https://www.al-islam.org/was-imam-ali-misogynist-amina-inloes

Edited by Hameedeh
[Mod Note: Moderators can reduce the size of excessively large fonts to a standard size of 14.]

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On ‎3‎/‎6‎/‎2018 at 7:47 AM, lola20 said:

It's fascinating to me that you and others are dismissing criticism and even defending parts of doctrine that are rooted in a history of enslaving and mistreating women. 

Sister, women do the same thing men do with Islam as well. For example, I know a brother whose wife abused the Qawwam verse of the Quran and used it to physically and mentally abuse this brother, by saying he isn't a "true qawwam" and she is "securing her rights". Now you might say this is one example, but at least in the west it isn't. There are so many sisters in the west who use and abuse the term qawwam as basically a license for her to be abusive and deny the rights of her husband. Whether conjugal, etc. It has gotten to a point that sisters non-stop use this Quranic verse to essentially emasculate and make their husbands into passive pack mules for them. Who are so obsessed with being "Independent" that they will deny their husband any and all rights that he has over her to achieve this. 

 

An example of what I am talking about is this post

. These types of women are WAY more numerous than you would like to think. And MOST if not all of these women are characterized by their use and abuse of various "pro-women" hadith and Quranic verses to essentially emasculate and enslave their husbands by making them into pack mules and over-glorified childhood teddy bears. 

Edited by Guest Account Ali

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On 3/5/2018 at 2:04 PM, lola20 said:

But it's not just my father. It's literally every Muslim man who is a polygamist that I have ever known. There is a problem with the doctrine and quotes like these: 

being weaponized against Muslim women, making them believe they are crazy and their feelings are invalid and worst of all: "kufr"

This quote is an example of how certain Islamic doctrine is used to perpetuate psychological abuse against women in the Muslim community. 

The complete IRONY is that in the other post about a man saying his wife had a male study buddy in her university and was showing obvious signs of emotional cheating, all of a sudden for you the OP should have been showing her more love and care. That way she wouldn't be seeking it outside. 

Well, the same is with men. Men DON'T just walk up and cheat for no reason. Often times it is because his current wife is not showing him enough love and care. So he then seeks a new wife.

And the irony is that in these cases, the current wife was probably extremely apathetic to the husband and his needs and desires. Nor did she care about fulfilling them. But ALL OF A SUDDEN when the second wife comes along is when the current wife is tripping over herself trying to prove herself to her husband. And since in Islam polygamy is allowed, no single wife OWNS her husband's affection completely. This may go against a woman's possessive nature over her male partner, but she has to learn to SHARE her affection with her husband when the time comes he gets another wife. 

Another irony in these cases is that by denying your husband his right to polygamy (unless specified otherwise in the nikkah contract), you will only drive him FURTHER into polygamy. Thus men wouldn't have to go all secret agent just to get a second wife if perhaps the current wife approaches her husband and supports his decision to get a second wife regardless of her feelings on the matter.

Trust me, no man will go all secret agent to get a new wife if his current wife tells him "Regardless of my feelings, as long as it is done in a halal manner, I completely support you in your possible pursuits to get another wife, so no need to go behind my back". 

For more info as to which paradigm I am operating from when I said the above, refer to this podcast: (Podcast crew and "show guest" are all sunni)

Just like how you basically accused the OP of not doing enough to deter his wife from emotionally cheating on him in the other thread I mentioned in this post, the same I can say about ANY woman whose husbands gets a second wife. I don't need to hear about how people like your mother slaved over your father and "did everything that he asked", out of principle I will always give a degree of doubt to such statements and the accused party. And just like how the OP in the other thread was talking about all the things he did for his wife, and some sisters were saying it "wasn't enough", same thing with other women, including people like your mother, were also "not doing enough". 

Now, personally I don't know if your mother "was doing enough" for your father. And I also say that of course there are people out there, men and women, who simply have no care for their partner's feelings and only care about themselves. So it could be likely that some men and women are like this. But that is NOT normative. Most of the time when another wife comes into the picture it is because the current one just isn't doing enough from the husband's vantage. However, the hypocrisy you exhibit is based on my observations so deeply ingrained that even when the woman from the thread I mentioned in my previous reply to  was such an apathetic woman who essentially is emotionally cheating on her partner is staring at you in the face you use the exact same arguments that men use to defend themselves when they do go behind their wives back's and get that secret second/third/fourth wife.

I guess you and your father are more alike than you think. 

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Ali - lesson number 1 - women will never agree even when they are wrong unless she has matured and the agreement is in her favor. Females under 30 are like little children.

The perfect woman. The perfect woman is a higher type of human than the perfect man, and also something much more rare.  Nietzsche.

And no, It isnt talking about the young females here. I wait for the laughing emoji, while that mascara slowly travels down those cheeks.

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11 hours ago, IbnSina said:

There is no good translation for gheerah to english, maybe male protective vigilance is a better term.

As I said brother:

I think jealousy is a bad word and not fitting for describing the concept applied to men.

Gheerah in islam is much different from jealousy.

For example:

If a man speaks inappropriately to my sister or acts in an inappropriate manner, I will not feel jealousy towards that man, I will not envy him for getting my sisters attention. But I will feel gheerat, which steams from my care to protect my sister against harm from men.

I dont think jealousy is a good translation of the concept, I dont think there is a word for it in english but jealousy as we know it is not good whether for women or men. Whatever the context is, whether you see a man richer than you or with a nicer car than you.

Gheerah is something completely different. Something good and something that protects the family and those you care about and in extend society as it prevents indecent behavior. 

But every single Arab-English dictionary I checked says gheerah is jealousy. In fact, the hadith says "gheerah in women is kufr" so would protection be a bad thing for women? That makes no sense. It's jealousy and that's that.

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32 minutes ago, monad said:

Ali - lesson number 1 - women will never agree even when they are wrong unless she has matured and the agreement is in her favor. Females under 30 are like little children.

The perfect woman. The perfect woman is a higher type of human than the perfect man, and also something much more rare.  Nietzsche.

And no, It isnt talking about the young females here. I wait for the laughing emoji, while that mascara slowly travels down those cheeks.

While I do agree that more women are like this than many women want to admit, I am not sure if I should generalize to such an extent. But nonetheless, I do agree. 

In fact, this blog article very well articulates this idea rather well: http://bythefigandtheolive.com/she-needs-you-to-be-her-protector/

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6 hours ago, IbnSina said:

Your asking for a reason as to why a muslim women cant marry two men?

Here is the reason:

5937616.jpg

Is there any solution for a family where a man has wedded 4 women, and finds out that he himself is the cause of them producing no children? Or will he, and namely his 4 wives, have to live with this? 

Of course I understand the Quran is the reason that a woman cannot marry more than one man at a time. Where in the Quran can this be found?

 

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1 hour ago, andres said:

Is there any solution for a family where a man has wedded 4 women, and finds out that he himself is the cause of them producing no children? Or will he, and namely his 4 wives, have to live with this? 

Of course I understand the Quran is the reason that a woman cannot marry more than one man at a time. Where in the Quran can this be found?

 

In the fiqh, if a man is deemed infertile his wives are encouraged to divorce him and remarry, without needing his approval to get divorced. However, surprisingly many women are aware of this but still yet choose to marry and be loyal to their infertile husbands (mostly because they themselves are infertile or that they have developed an emotional bond to their husband). 

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I have not read beyond the first few messages. But here's my take on this. I do not believe that any man (other than the Prophets and Infallibles) would be able to treat all his wives equally. I have witnessed men who have promised this but it is a complete fallacy! It is human nature that the husband will be drawn towards one wife more than the other(s). Then his attention; love, money and time will be unfairly allocated more to his "favourite". Like it or not, this is how it pans out in reality! So many religious folk would say that even if the man is unjust (READ AS NOT FOLLOWING THE RULES OF THIS MULTI MARRIAGE ARRANGEMENT AND THEREFORE SINNING), the woman should just be patient! Why? One rule for the man and another for the woman!

Just because our religion allows us do something it doesn't mean it has to be practiced. In today's day and age, except under exceptional circumstances, I do not see why a man needs to have multiple wives anyway. Just have some control over your gaze and stay loyal to your wife. If it's not working out; if despite all your efforts your marriage is irrevocably over - then please set your wife free so she can have a monogamous marriage with a man who will give her undivided love and attention.

If you don't love/like your husband, then this multiple wife arrangement may come as a welcome solution because you still have financial security without having to tend to his "other" needs so much. There may be other circumstances in which a wife doesn't mind her husband taking more wives. But, if a woman deeply loves a man, the idea of him sharing his love (and marital bed) with someone else would destroy her. Personally, if I truly loved a man, I would not take a step out of the house if he requested me not to (hypothetically speaking), but share him? Never! This is not jealousy but simply pure and unadulterated love for your spouse.

 

Edited by Aflower

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10 hours ago, Guest Account Ali said:

Well, the same is with men. Men DON'T just walk up and cheat for no reason. Often times it is because his current wife is not showing him enough love and care. So he then seeks a new wife.

@Guest Account Ali. Ermmm.... I think you missed some steps in between... and even then I don't agree with this preposterous theory of yours! How about the husband asks the wife WHY she is not "showing enough love and care". It is highly likely that by communicating the husband will discover a legitimate reason... may be she is unwell/stressed/pre-occupied with some other concern/matter.

You can't just go window shopping for another wife the minute your existing wife is not showing you "enough love and care". "CHEATING" is not permitted under any circumstances in Islam. How sad that men in our society have such depraved opinions and that a wife is considered to be such a disposable commodity! It is men with views like yours that make a mockery of our religion and destroy the happiness and future of loyal, committed and pious wives. 

I am too sad to comment on your other ludicrous and ignorant statements! 

10 hours ago, Guest Account Ali said:

Now, personally I don't know if your mother "was doing enough" for your father.

@lola20

 I apologise to you on this brothers behalf (even though I don't know him). No-one has a right to make such comments!

Edited by Aflower

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1 hour ago, Aflower said:

@Guest Account Ali. Ermmm.... I think you missed some steps in between... and even then I don't agree with this preposterous theory of yours! How about the husband asks the wife WHY she is not "showing enough love and care". It is highly likely that by communicating the husband will discover a legitimate reason... may be she is unwell/stressed/pre-occupied with some other concern/matter.

You can't just go window shopping for another wife the minute your existing wife is not showing you "enough love and care". "CHEATING" is not permitted under any circumstances in Islam. How sad that men in our society have such depraved opinions and that a wife is considered to be such a disposable commodity! It is men with views like yours that make a mockery of our religion and destroy the happiness and future of loyal, committed and pious wives. 

I am too sad to comment on your other ludicrous and ignorant statements! 

@lola20

 I apologise to you on this brothers behalf (even though I don't know him). No-one has a right to make such comments!

 If it is one thing you can take away from this comment is to watch this video in its entirety whenever you get a chance in your busy day-to-day life: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1syCpbAgp8&t=2390s Perhaps I might not be doing a good job of articulating this concept as well as I thought. But the video explains this viewpoint, and the person explaining it is a woman herself. 

And what theory do you disagree with? That men don't spontaneously cheat on their wives for the sake of it? That most men seek another wife since the current one is not meeting all of his expectations? Seriously, you disagree with this? I am a man, and I can assure you that we are not Hollywood villains that like to cheat on our wives for the thrill of it, or because we like emotionally torturing our wives. And I agree that most Muslim men and women seem to lack even basic knowledge of how to communicate with their spouses. And the whole spiel after that I also agree with. 

Also, seeking another wife is not "cheating". Did you miss the part where I said that as long as he seeks this new wife in a HALAL MANNER. Repeat, HALAL MANNER, she should be fine with her husband's decision? Our ancient pious scholars used to have more than one wife, and so did the pure progeny (AS) of the prophet (PBUH), and even the prophet (PBUH) as well. And so did many companions of the Imams (AS) and the prophet (PBUH) that both sunni's and shia's revere. Heck, back then even normal fallible men used to marry a younger woman when their wives turned older. For...various reasons.

Regarding your paragraph about my "views", stop it. I do not appreciate ad-hominems. So stop slinging them at me, and if you continue to do so, then be prepared to be insulted back. And don't pretend that you didn't intent to use such gems like this as a personal character assassination attempt against me, "It is men with views like yours that make a mockery of our religion and destroy the happiness and future of loyal, committed and pious wives." 

Also when I said "not doing enough", I meant in general behavior. I have no idea why such a statement of mine would remind you anything remotely sexual. Stuff like giving him pleasant company (for men this is usually not being nagging, arrogant, short-tempered, etc.). Again, it is very easy to demonize that sister's father. But reality is more complicated than that. Now, the sister basically threw a smoking gun accusation against her father. So I attempted to tell her that either her father married another wife just for thrills and might have zero regard of other's feelings, or perhaps he married another woman for more understandable reasons. Bottom line, and I stated this in my post to her, him getting another wife was not a bad thing. But him going about getting another wife in a borderline cheating manner or another treacherous manner is what is the bad thing.

Edited by Guest Account Ali

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@Guest Account Ali

You stated:

"And what theory do you disagree with? That men don't spontaneously cheat on their wives for the sake of it? That most men seek another wife since the current one is not meeting all of his expectations? Seriously, you disagree with this? I am a man, and I can assure you that we are not Hollywood villains that like to cheat on our wives for the thrill of it, or because we like emotionally torturing our wives. And I agree that most Muslim men and women seem to lack even basic knowledge of how to communicate with their spouses. And the whole spiel after that I also agree with". 

I know it happens in theory! That is exactly my point - it shouldn't happen and I don't agree with the practice of the above.

Do you even read what you write? You yourself wrote: 

"And what theory do you disagree with? That men don't spontaneously cheat on their wives for the sake of it?

You then go on to state:

"Also, seeking another wife is not "cheating". 

You yourself described this as cheating. May be it was a Freudian slip because you yourself subconsciously do consider this to be cheating? This is a speculative observation - I'm not accusing you of this.

You later said:

"Also when I said "not doing enough", I meant in general behavior. I have no idea why such a statement of mine would remind you anything remotely sexual."

Where, when and how did I say/indicate/suggest that your comment had "sexual" connotations? I did NOT. May be this is another Freudian Slip? Again simply speculative!

You further state: 

"...be prepared to be insulted back.

How very manly and noble of you... NOT! I'm sure that it is against SC rules to insult other members and if you dare to do so I will report you to the moderators. Please debate politely and fairly... and as the saying goes: if you have nothing good to say.. say nothing at all. I'm sure you've heard the idiom: If you can't take the heat then get out of the kitchen. 

Au revoir!

Edited by Aflower

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this is has become comical.

The women are telling men how they should think and behave and ignoring facts.

No such thing as cheating in Islam or even from a biological perspective. it is called the dominance hierachy, women play it well, and it is seen more so in the freedoms women have been give, thus, men will do so, once they realise, they have naturally more authority over females.

3 hours ago, Aflower said:

How very manly and noble of you... NOT! I'm sure that it is against SC rules to insult other members and if you dare to do so I will report you to the moderators. Please debate politely and fairly... and as the saying goes: if you have nothing good to say.. say nothing at all. I'm sure you've heard the idiom: If you can't take the heat then get out of the kitchen.

your whole written response is nothing short of pure intended manipulation. If you accused him of his so called biological Freudian slip, then consider your own Freudian slip when he wrote, thine shall respond with severity towards thou. you regressed into victim mode, while threatening, insulting and impressing movie style coolness.

To add, men take many women because they can and want to. The women go with them, because that type of man has something she wants and is willing to compete with the other women in his life. Just like women with beauty, they behave with indifference because they can. If both genders want to discuss the merits of a perfect union, then explain how this is possible, without each gender within this union  not taking advantage of the other. One always has to be the dominant gender. if women want to be dominant, then they must be dominant ALWAYS, not when they FEEL like it. Man is naturally dominant, even if that male is in the lowest denominator of the male population.

Edited by monad

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9 hours ago, Guest Account Ali said:

In the fiqh, if a man is deemed infertile his wives are encouraged to divorce him and remarry, without needing his approval to get divorced. However, surprisingly many women are aware of this but still yet choose to marry and be loyal to their infertile husbands (mostly because they themselves are infertile or that they have developed an emotional bond to their husband). 

The mans choise is rather simple if his wife is infertile. He just marries one more if he can afford it. The chanse of having 4 infertile wives is almost zero.

The wife has less possibilities. Divorce or stay childless. Not very fair, but such were conditions 1.400 years ago.

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16 hours ago, Aflower said:

Do you even read what you write? You yourself wrote: 

"And what theory do you disagree with? That men don't spontaneously cheat on their wives for the sake of it?

You then go on to state:

"Also, seeking another wife is not "cheating". 

You yourself described this as cheating. May be it was a Freudian slip because you yourself subconsciously do consider this to be cheating? This is a speculative observation - I'm not accusing you of this.

Sue me, I forgot to put the quotations around the term "cheating" in my other paragraph. Now, go back and mentally put the quotations around the term "cheating" when I used it.

16 hours ago, Aflower said:

You later said:

"Also when I said "not doing enough", I meant in general behavior. I have no idea why such a statement of mine would remind you anything remotely sexual."

Where, when and how did I say/indicate/suggest that your comment had "sexual" connotations? I did NOT. May be this is another Freudian Slip? Again simply speculative!

Well clearly, when you say something like this "I apologies to you on this brothers behalf (even though I don't know him). No-one has a right to make such comments!" all of sudden you bring out the "How could you interpret it that way?!" card to deny its obvious intended meaning. The irony is, you of all people should not be playing such a card. Seeing as how you seem to be mentioning Freudian slips more so than even Freud himself mentioned it. If I didn't know any better, I would say you not only made a big Freudian slip, but you also managed to make it a projection. lol

16 hours ago, Aflower said:

You further state: 

"...be prepared to be insulted back.

How very manly and noble of you... NOT! I'm sure that it is against SC rules to insult other members and if you dare to do so I will report you to the moderators. Please debate politely and fairly... and as the saying goes: if you have nothing good to say.. say nothing at all. I'm sure you've heard the idiom: If you can't take the heat then get out of the kitchen. 

Au revoir!

Not noble. I just treat others the way they treat me. If you insult me, well then Imma insult you back until you stop slinging insults. And speaking of insults, need I remind you "It is men with views like yours that make a mockery of our religion and destroy the happiness and future of loyal, committed and pious wives." 

"I'm sure that it is against SC rules to insult other members and if you dare to do so I will report you to the moderators. Please debate politely and fairly" 

YOU of all people, saying you will report me to the mods? Even though you have character assassinated me already. Once again (It is men with views like yours that make a mockery of our religion and destroy the happiness and future of loyal, committed and pious wives).  

And your talk of debating "politely and fairly" even though YOU of all people essentially said this about my arguments "I am too sad to comment on your other ludicrous and ignorant statements!" On what planet is such a statement at the very least polite? Once again, forget nobility. I treat others the way they treat me, if you refuse to be "polite" and "fair" then I see no reason to be so towards you as well. 

"and as the saying goes: if you have nothing good to say.. say nothing at all. I'm sure you've heard the idiom: If you can't take the heat then get out of the kitchen."
So now where has all this talk about debating "politely and fairly" gone if I can't "take the heat"? 

Edited by Guest Account Ali

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Let me remind you that there is no Cheating in Islam. Forget about the permanent marriage, men in our sect are Allowed to have Temporary marriage (mutaa, temporary agreement, etc..) Without the knowledge of their wife. There are many reasons why a man would choose to do this behind the back of his wife, but then again if he was in a healthy marriage life and the 2 partners are sane and have a stable character then he wouldn't do it.

Now clearly our sister here, lola, have been attacking islam and she wasn't convinced about anything we have been saying, tho it was obvious that we were trying to help her for her own sake because these personal accusations that she's been doing will lead her to something much more bigger and dangerous in the future, and since she wasn't cooperating at all someone had to state the Obvious and put her some limitation with some straight, honest words like our brother here Ali did.

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