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Bashar al-Assad - 'Barrel Bombs'

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1 hour ago, Intellectual Resistance said:

This is a Straw-Man.

My actual argument: Assad is the best out of a a group of dictators who rule the ME. His foreign policy has been his strong point , and his country have legitimately been targeted by terrorists and other countries, who sought to destabilise it for their own political/ geopolitical gain. However in combating terrorists, he himself has used questionable methods, like well known indiscriminate bombs, and the like , which is considered a war crime to use because of its disproportionate effect on civilians. He has behaved in a manner at times, even after going for terrorists who do use human shields and embedded themselves questionable, a reckless behaviour to civilians, and i strongly believer more care should have been taken. On the whole, Assad is indeed a dictator, but that is a problem for the Syrian people to deal with. As followers of the Ahlulbayt, despite him being the lesser evil, we can not remain silent when he does morally questionable things, and call a spade a spade, and speak out against injustice wherever it is.

If we do not speak out, we as Shias will forever be remembered as people who remained silent when great, morally questionable tragedies were occurring. 

Assad himself has used questionable methods, like well known indiscriminate bombs, and the like , which is considered a war crime to use because of its disproportionate effect on civilians. He has behaved in a manner at times, even after going for terrorists who do use human shields and embedded themselves questionable, a reckless behaviour to civilians, and i strongly believer more care should have been taken. On the whole, Assad is indeed a dictator, but that is a problem for the Syrian people to deal with. Assad is the best out of a a group of dictators who rule the ME. His foreign policy has been his strong point , and his country have legitimately been targeted by terrorists and other countries, who sought to destabilise it for their own political/ geopolitical gain.

At the end of the day, despite his faults, he is still the best option.

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4 minutes ago, shiaman14 said:

Assad himself has used questionable methods, like well known indiscriminate bombs, and the like , which is considered a war crime to use because of its disproportionate effect on civilians. He has behaved in a manner at times, even after going for terrorists who do use human shields and embedded themselves questionable, a reckless behaviour to civilians, and i strongly believer more care should have been taken. On the whole, Assad is indeed a dictator, but that is a problem for the Syrian people to deal with. Assad is the best out of a a group of dictators who rule the ME. His foreign policy has been his strong point , and his country have legitimately been targeted by terrorists and other countries, who sought to destabilise it for their own political/ geopolitical gain.

At the end of the day, despite his faults, he is still the best option.

That isn't the point of discussion though and a foregone conclusion no-one is going to argue about on here. 

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21 minutes ago, Intellectual Resistance said:

That isn't the point of discussion though and a foregone conclusion no-one is going to argue about on here. 

the point is that Assad is a bad guy and should be reprimanded for his actions but the reprimand does not include removing him from power since he is the best option.

He will accept this offer every time it is offered to him.

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Just now, shiaman14 said:

the point is that Assad is a bad guy and should be reprimanded for his actions but the reprimand does not include removing him from power since he is the best option.

He will accept this offer every time it is offered to him.

Of course , i don't disagree with that. However need to be vocal and clear when he performs acts we do not accept as morally right, and in our name as Shias too, whether we like it or not.

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1 hour ago, Intellectual Resistance said:

Of course , i don't disagree with that. However need to be vocal and clear when he performs acts we do not accept as morally right, and in our name as Shias too, whether we like it or not.

As shias we need to be fair and balanced as well. Please point me to your anti-ISIS posts for which you had to bear the brunt of the salafi anger.

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On 02/03/2018 at 4:01 AM, shiaman14 said:

As shias we need to be fair and balanced as well. Please point me to your anti-ISIS posts for which you had to bear the brunt of the salafi anger.

I'm not going to be pointing that out, given i've had people reverse post what i've written on here onto other boards and vice versa. Suffice to say that isn't even an important component of this discussion and an irrelevant aside, but it should suffice you that i swear about Allah that i am speaking the truth. It isn't just ISIS, i have to repeat again, i have gone after.  They aren't the real players, and this false-dichotomy between Assad and ISIS has to end. The real battle is between Assad and western backed groups, many of whom with extremist origins and retaining extremely sectarian ties, servants of governments which fund them; groups i mentioned like al-Nusra, Ahrar Asham, Jaysh al Islam, and the like. 

 

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On 02/03/2018 at 8:23 AM, realizm said:

:salam:

You all agree Bachar al Asad is, the lesser evil.

Brother @Intellectual Resistance is with Bachar, and just points out he should stop using barrel bombs.

The rest looks like 6 pages of useless arguments.

Unfortunately, six pages was full of arguments that misinterpreted everything i've said. I thank you for recognising that i am not propagating taking Assad out and allowing so-called 'moderate terrorists' to reign supreme. I am advocating taking a closer look at Assads methods of taking out terrorists, and consider that he isn't an angel, nor are his army, and sometimes to try to more quickly take out terrorists his army have resorted to crude bombs, like barrel bombs, known to disproportionately kill civilians, and not enough care was taken i believe to preserve the lives of civilians as they should have been.

Now if i'm going to go on a procession and tell members of the public about how great Imam al-Hussain (as) was, how he stood up for humanity, ethics, justice, and then in the same breath ignore being just when it comes to innocent children, women, and men dying, i will live my life as a hypocrite when i know the reality.

I am asking for a more balanced position among Shias, where we fully recognise that Assad is the only alternative, but have the decency to question him, because he for sure is not M'asum, nor religious, nor following religion in how he commands his army, but is a secular dictator, and while he is not the butcher paints him to be, some of his methods are questionable and merit discussion and merit us to raise pressure to best protect civilians.

Unfortunately, name calling, hyperbole, straw-mans, and the like have taken over what should have been a sober and very important discussion.  

 

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1 hour ago, Intellectual Resistance said:

Unfortunately, six pages was full of arguments that misinterpreted everything i've said.

I have several times tackled your arguments directly and have given you clear answers and examples. Sadly, you have responded once to which I again have debunked your arguments. If you are unable to provide evidence or a much more logical approach to the problem, you can say so and we will call it a day. Cherry-picking to whom you will respond isn't going to prove your point at all.

Then again comes the argument that you do not posses the tactical and military knowledge to base your arguments on. And not only do you lack this, you are also unaware of what is happening at the very moment. You do not receive any real life intel feed nor behind the scenes documents. This states that you are in no position to talk about "better methods" to kill less civilians or criticize the current methods used as you have no knowledge of better ones available. Those experts there know what is better and available and thus they act accordingly.

I quote from a different thread which backs up my argument:

Quote

"While there is casualty in war, surely there ought to be a rethink over methods that would better preserve civilian life." On 1-3-2018 at 9:14 PM

If you are willing to criticize a method, you should be able to provide a better alternative or a solution. You have been unable to do this during these whole 6 pages. Can you tackle a teacher without giving a solution to the cause? You cannot.

You have come back with giving a few examples of wars where BBs claimed lives of people. I have come with examples of how missiles have devastated entire countries.

As a respected and big marja' has given his opinion on the matter, I stand fully behind it. One may go and debate this marja' directly in order to change my thoughts. There is no need to discuss a certain matter with someone who is unwilling to go further in the debate. I thank you for your replies and wish you all prosperity.

May Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى accept your duas and prayers.

Edited by Khomeinist

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1 hour ago, Intellectual Resistance said:

I'm not going to be pointing that out, given i've had people reverse post what i've written on here onto other boards and vice versa. Suffice to say that isn't even an important component of this discussion and an irrelevant aside, but it should suffice you that i swear about Allah that i am speaking the truth.

That makes no sense whatsoever and seems like a simple ruse to escape answering the question. in future don't make claims you can't back up. To summarize, you are neither going to provide evidence of your extensive research about Assad 's "crimes against humanity" nor will you cite your posts condemning the rebels for which you bore the brunt of salafi anger.

1 hour ago, Intellectual Resistance said:

It isn't just ISIS, i have to repeat again, i have gone after.  They aren't the real players, and this false-dichotomy between Assad and ISIS has to end. The real battle is between Assad and western backed groups, many of whom with extremist origins and retaining extremely sectarian ties, servants of governments which fund them; groups i mentioned like al-Nusra, Ahrar Asham, Jaysh al Islam, and the like. 

 

While it is true that lots of western backed groups exist(ed) in Syria, fact is ISIS took over most of them and was the largest group against Assad. They have been virtually eliminated now but nevertheless were the largest anti-Assad group. Perhaps your research is not as extensive as you think.

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1 hour ago, Intellectual Resistance said:

Unfortunately, six pages was full of arguments that misinterpreted everything i've said. I thank you for recognising that i am not propagating taking Assad out and allowing so-called 'moderate terrorists' to reign supreme. I am advocating taking a closer look at Assads methods of taking out terrorists, and consider that he isn't an angel, nor are his army, and sometimes to try to more quickly take out terrorists his army have resorted to crude bombs, like barrel bombs, known to disproportionately kill civilians, and not enough care was taken i believe to preserve the lives of civilians as they should have been.

Now if i'm going to go on a procession and tell members of the public about how great Imam al-Hussain (as) was, how he stood up for humanity, ethics, justice, and then in the same breath ignore being just when it comes to innocent children, women, and men dying, i will live my life as a hypocrite when i know the reality.

I am asking for a more balanced position among Shias, where we fully recognise that Assad is the only alternative, but have the decency to question him, because he for sure is not M'asum, nor religious, nor following religion in how he commands his army, but is a secular dictator, and while he is not the butcher paints him to be, some of his methods are questionable and merit discussion and merit us to raise pressure to best protect civilians.

Unfortunately, name calling, hyperbole, straw-mans, and the like have taken over what should have been a sober and very important discussion.  

 

Essentially, let's slap Assad on the wrist but continue to support him as the leader of Syria.

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1 minute ago, shiaman14 said:

That makes no sense whatsoever and seems like a simple ruse to escape answering the question. in future don't make claims you can't back up. To summarize, you are neither going to provide evidence of your extensive research about Assad 's "crimes against humanity" nor will you cite your posts condemning the rebels for which you bore the brunt of salafi anger.

While it is true that lots of western backed groups exist(ed) in Syria, fact is ISIS took over most of them and was the largest group against Assad. They have been virtually eliminated now but nevertheless were the largest anti-Assad group. Perhaps your research is not as extensive as you think.

This entire thread has been about just one aspect: using Barrel Bombs, and i have provided evidence, analysis, and what i feel when taken holistically clearly demonstrates Assad to be using these indiscriminate weapons. If you want me to detail all of this war crimes, that will require multiple threads, because each one is an individual area. I have brought evidence for one area - the main one, and reasonable analysis too.

 Now, Assad committing war crimes has nothing to do with me having condemned so-called 'moderate' rebels. I have done it on this thread, i have done it all over the internet, and i have sworn to Allah. I have also made it clear to you that i am not going to be bringing them here, because i have had Salafis take posts of my threads, paste them and try to twist my words back and forth, and so won't be linking myself. If you can not accept that i have taken the name of Allah that what i am saying is true, then i can't convince you otherwise.

You make a point about ISIS taking them over now. That isn't true at all. The reality is actually the opposite: Many of these groups emerged knowingly or unknowingly cooperating what was then the roots of ISIS, before splitting off and even becoming their enemies. Al-Nusra and ISIS are enemies, Ahrar Asham and ISIS are enemies, Jaysh al Islam and ISIS are enemies, and many of these so-called non-ISIS 'moderate' rebel groups have been fighting ISIS, fighting Kurds, and fighting Assad.  

ISIS are a universal enemy, targetted by a US led-coalition, Turkey, Arab states, so-called non-ISIS 'rebels', Assad, and other groups. ISIS were anti-everyone. They were never a serious  player because no-one wanted them, and everyone has targeted them, and so it was never about Assad verses ISIS if we look at this from a geopolitical angle. 

These groups still do exist. Who do you think Assad is fighting in eastern Goutha? Is it ISIS? No brother, among them is Jaysh al-Islam who have historically been on the outskirts of Damascus shelling it from the outside. They have either merged together under a banner, or some factions from certain groups have split to join another, and while they are a heavily spent force compared to what they used to be, there's still a war going on. These groups are the ones backed by western governments and Gulf-state dictatorships. They are the players here.

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8 minutes ago, shiaman14 said:

Essentially, let's slap Assad on the wrist but continue to support him as the leader of Syria.

Not what i was implying. Let us be clear and raise a voice to our scholars, our leaders, that we do not accept war crimes on any side, and lobby as much as we can to ensure our voices are clear in that while we view Assad as the only alternative here - for now - we aren't just going to remain silent if even he uses morally questionable methods. It's about justice, and principle. 

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@shiaman14

https://monitoring.bbc.co.uk/product/c1douzrw

"The Islamist faction Jaysh al-Islam is the strongest and most prominent group in Eastern Ghouta. Its fighting force is estimated at around 10,000 fighters, according to Qatar-funded Al-Jazeera.  The group was formed in 2011 by its former leader Zahran Alloush, who was killed in an air strike that targeted a meeting he was attending in Eastern Ghouta in December 2015. Initially known under the name Liwa al-Islam, it was later renamed as Jaysh al-Islam in 2013 after several groups based in Eastern Ghouta united under Allush's leadership."

I've researched this particular group more than most, and have followed news about them for several years now.  You're hiring the news of Eastern Goutha and it isn't a war between Assad and ISIS in that region. 

In fact, when the chemical weapons attacks - or alleged chemical weapons attacked occurred - i strongly believe either Jaysh al Islam or al-Nusra militants were the cause of it. Zahran Alloush on video has praised Osama bin Laden, called al-Nursra his 'brothers', and used word such as 'Najis, Majoosi, Rafidha, and we'll bring back the Ummayads' in his message to Shias. 

In fact, when the US published a hashed and erroneous report accusing Assad of definitely using chemical weapons - on a day he himself invited the United Nations to investigate a previous incident - MIT later published a report rebuking the one published by the US government. George Galloway himself in the UK parliament made this powerful point, questioning if Assad really would have been mad enough to use chemical weapons on the same day he invited the UN to investigate war crimes he alleged were committed by terrorists. This was during a vote on whether the UK should use air-strikes on Syria. 

Unfortunately, every group seems to be blind to evidence and partisan and hard-headed in their bias, because despite presenting that - at the time - to many Salafis and Sunnis, they ignored it and rolled out with their hyperbole and accusations. 

Edited by Intellectual Resistance

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2 hours ago, Intellectual Resistance said:

This entire thread has been about just one aspect: using Barrel Bombs, and i have provided evidence, analysis, and what i feel when taken holistically clearly demonstrates Assad to be using these indiscriminate weapons. If you want me to detail all of this war crimes, that will require multiple threads, because each one is an individual area. I have brought evidence for one area - the main one, and reasonable analysis to

So your extensive research and analysis is a description of a barrel bomb and 2 videos (BBC and CH4) of Assad using them?

Do you not see the fallacy of your argument that you are using sources that want to get rid of Assad. It's like Hitler what he thinks of Jews.

2 hours ago, Intellectual Resistance said:

Now, Assad committing war crimes has nothing to do with me having condemned so-called 'moderate' rebels. I have done it on this thread, i have done it all over the internet, and i have sworn to Allah. I have also made it clear to you that i am not going to be bringing them here, because i have had Salafis take posts of my threads, paste them and try to twist my words back and forth, and so won't be linking myself. If you can not accept that i have taken the name of Allah that what i am saying is true, then i can't convince you otherwise.

Yes of course, I forgot. biggest victim and such...

2 hours ago, Intellectual Resistance said:

You make a point about ISIS taking them over now. That isn't true at all. The reality is actually the opposite: Many of these groups emerged knowingly or unknowingly cooperating what was then the roots of ISIS, before splitting off and even becoming their enemies. Al-Nusra and ISIS are enemies, Ahrar Asham and ISIS are enemies, Jaysh al Islam and ISIS are enemies, and many of these so-called non-ISIS 'moderate' rebel groups have been fighting ISIS, fighting Kurds, and fighting Assad.  

ISIS are a universal enemy, targetted by a US led-coalition, Turkey, Arab states, so-called non-ISIS 'rebels', Assad, and other groups. ISIS were anti-everyone. They were never a serious  player because no-one wanted them, and everyone has targeted them, and so it was never about Assad verses ISIS if we look at this from a geopolitical angle. 

These groups still do exist. Who do you think Assad is fighting in eastern Goutha? Is it ISIS? No brother, among them is Jaysh al-Islam who have historically been on the outskirts of Damascus shelling it from the outside. They have either merged together under a banner, or some factions from certain groups have split to join another, and while they are a heavily spent force compared to what they used to be, there's still a war going on. These groups are the ones backed by western governments and Gulf-state dictatorships. They are the players here.

I guess BBC and CH4 did not tell you that ISIS had the largest stronghold in northern Syria. 

When the group changed its name to Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant and expanded into Syria in April 2014, it claimed nine Syrian provinces, covering most of the country and lying largely along existing provincial boundaries: Al Barakah, Al Khayr, Raqqa, Homs, Halab, Idlib, Hamah, Damascus, and Latakia  "

2 hours ago, Intellectual Resistance said:

ISIS are a universal enemy, targetted by a US led-coalition, Turkey, Arab states, so-called non-ISIS 'rebels', Assad, and other groups. ISIS were anti-everyone. They were never a serious  player because no-one wanted them, and everyone has targeted them, and so it was never about Assad verses ISIS if we look at this from a geopolitical angle. 

 

Again, BBC didn't mention this I guess that some Arab states were supporting ISIS. Heck Saudi accused Qatar of supporting terrorists.

2 hours ago, Intellectual Resistance said:

These groups still do exist. Who do you think Assad is fighting in eastern Goutha? Is it ISIS? No brother, among them is Jaysh al-Islam who have historically been on the outskirts of Damascus shelling it from the outside. They have either merged together under a banner, or some factions from certain groups have split to join another, and while they are a heavily spent force compared to what they used to be, there's still a war going on. These groups are the ones backed by western governments and Gulf-state dictatorships. They are the players here.

Dude - I literally told you on PG5 that rebels groups are operating Eastern Ghouta. I even asked you to confirm if civilians had requested Assad to free them from the rebels. I am sure you were about to post a topic about the rebels not letting civilians evacuate despite the call for a safe zone.

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Salamualaykum dear brother, i hope this reaches you in good health, inshAllah.

37 minutes ago, shiaman14 said:

So your extensive research and analysis is a description of a barrel bomb and 2 videos (BBC and CH4) of Assad using them?

 

This particular thread was documenting Assads use of Barrel Bombs. I consider is an indiscriminate weapon and i questioned if more could be done to preserve and protect civilian life. I brought forth video evidence of them being dropped, picture evidence, Assad himself dancing around the question and displaying guilt, as well as referenced the fact there are scores of refugees who have fled Syria and have described the effects of the bombs, all corroborating one another, in addition to independent reports of crater sites carried out all over Syria which match the effect an indiscriminate bomb would have.  I feel i have done enough to prove Assad is using Barrel Bombs, and have subsequently explained exactly why these are not weapons that should be used in densely packed civilian populations, even if they are embedded with terrorists.

37 minutes ago, shiaman14 said:

I guess BBC and CH4 did not tell you that ISIS had the largest stronghold in northern Syria. 

When the group changed its name to Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant and expanded into Syria in April 2014, it claimed nine Syrian provinces, covering most of the country and lying largely along existing provincial boundaries: Al Barakah, Al Khayr, Raqqa, Homs, Halab, Idlib, Hamah, Damascus, and Latakia  "

Again, BBC didn't mention this I guess that some Arab states were supporting ISIS. Heck Saudi accused Qatar of supporting terrorists.

 

Dear brother, i never denied at one point ISIS had the largest land mass. Even then, most of this land mass was actually in uninhabited locations, but there is not denying out of the opposition to Assad, they were once the largest and most powerful force. 

What i was addressing was your claim that so-called 'rebel' groups have all been merged into ISIS, which is not the case, as well as the fact these rebel groups have all been mopped up pretty much, which again isn't entirely accurate.  Many of these groups initially started as being under the banner or working very closely with ISIS, such as the al-Nusra front , but they broke away from them early on to form their own powerful independent groups. While there was speculation in 2013 that they had come together again, the reality is, this was denied and al-Nusra have fought ISIS, and out of pressure from their donors, have even rebranded and allegedly claimed to cut ties with al-Aqaeda, becoming 'Jabat Fatah al-Sham' - and no-one buys this rebranding. 

ISIS, i will emphasis again, have never been Assads biggest threat. Yes, they were once powerful,  but the fact remains on a geopolitical level , everyone targeted ISIS and continue to. There is no way ISIS would ever be the alternative to Assad, because the entire world, including Assad have been attacking them, and an ISIS in control of Syria is not the geopolitical aim of any country. 

However, the real players who still exist, and while they are weakened and have been losing this war, definitely remain as a force are groups like al-Nusra, Ahrar Asham, Jaysh al Islam and other groups, many of whom often join together under one banner or front in some years, before disbanding, losing factions to the other and the like. These groups are backed by foreign countries and touted as 'moderate rebels' and seen as the alternative to Assad. The real option is between Assad and these groups, and not Assad and ISIS.

As for funding ISIS, the international community is responsible, because they recklessly funded 'rebels' and many of these weapons fell into the hands of ISIS early on in the conflict. However as they realised who ISIS were, and how they are the enemies of everyone and have no long term geopolitical benefit in terms of securing power in Syria, many of them started to back so-called 'moderate' rebels, the groups we are discussing today, and who are and in the past were more so the real players here.

 

37 minutes ago, shiaman14 said:

Dude - I literally told you on PG5 that rebels groups are operating Eastern Ghouta. I even asked you to confirm if civilians had requested Assad to free them from the rebels. I am sure you were about to post a topic about the rebels not letting civilians evacuate despite the call for a safe zone.

Then you should know better than to say that rebel groups have joined ISIS, and that they are all almost non-existent, which isn't the case as i have explained before.  Once more, Allah is my witness that i have exposed and will inshAllah return to exposing these groups to Sunnis in particular. However, a Shia audience knows this already, they have insight, and the key aim here is to have a sober discussion of what legitimate concerns there are, once we sift away all the mainstream media lies and propaganda.

Edited by Intellectual Resistance

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1 hour ago, Intellectual Resistance said:

Salamualaykum dear brother, i hope this reaches you in good health, inshAllah.

 

This particular thread was documenting Assads use of Barrel Bombs. I consider is an indiscriminate weapon and i questioned if more could be done to preserve and protect civilian life. I brought forth video evidence of them being dropped, picture evidence, Assad himself dancing around the question and displaying guilt, as well as referenced the fact there are scores of refugees who have fled Syria and have described the effects of the bombs, all corroborating one another, in addition to independent reports of crater sites carried out all over Syria which match the effect an indiscriminate bomb would have.  I feel i have done enough to prove Assad is using Barrel Bombs, and have subsequently explained exactly why these are not weapons that should be used in densely packed civilian populations, even if they are embedded with terrorists.

Dear brother, i never denied at one point ISIS had the largest land mass. Even then, most of this land mass was actually in uninhabited locations, but there is not denying out of the opposition to Assad, they were once the largest and most powerful force. 

What i was addressing was your claim that so-called 'rebel' groups have all been merged into ISIS, which is not the case, as well as the fact these rebel groups have all been mopped up pretty much, which again isn't entirely accurate.  Many of these groups initially started as being under the banner or working very closely with ISIS, such as the al-Nusra front , but they broke away from them early on to form their own powerful independent groups. While there was speculation in 2013 that they had come together again, the reality is, this was denied and al-Nusra have fought ISIS, and out of pressure from their donors, have even rebranded and allegedly claimed to cut ties with al-Aqaeda, becoming 'Jabat Fatah al-Sham' - and no-one buys this rebranding. 

ISIS, i will emphasis again, have never been Assads biggest threat. Yes, they were once powerful,  but the fact remains on a geopolitical level , everyone targeted ISIS and continue to. There is no way ISIS would ever be the alternative to Assad, because the entire world, including Assad have been attacking them, and an ISIS in control of Syria is not the geopolitical aim of any country. 

However, the real players who still exist, and while they are weakened and have been losing this war, definitely remain as a force are groups like al-Nusra, Ahrar Asham, Jaysh al Islam and other groups, many of whom often join together under one banner or front in some years, before disbanding, losing factions to the other and the like. These groups are backed by foreign countries and touted as 'moderate rebels' and seen as the alternative to Assad. The real option is between Assad and these groups, and not Assad and ISIS.

As for funding ISIS, the international community is responsible, because they recklessly funded 'rebels' and many of these weapons fell into the hands of ISIS early on in the conflict. However as they realised who ISIS were, and how they are the enemies of everyone and have no long term geopolitical benefit in terms of securing power in Syria, many of them started to back so-called 'moderate' rebels, the groups we are discussing today, and who are and in the past were more so the real players here.

 

Then you should know better than to say that rebel groups have joined ISIS, and that they are all almost non-existent, which isn't the case as i have explained before.  Once more, Allah is my witness that i have exposed and will inshAllah return to exposing these groups to Sunnis in particular. However, a Shia audience knows this already, they have insight, and the key aim here is to have a sober discussion of what legitimate concerns there are, once we sift away all the mainstream media lies and propaganda.

Leaving aside the comical $2 video editing in the first video which didn't show any evidence other than something dropping out of the sky from an unmarked copter and some explosions including one video from the copter over almost barren land, the reason I keep saying ISIS is because they were the largest threat to Syria and MOST IMPORTANTLY the videos you posted were from Feb-Mar 2015 when ISIS was at the peak of its power.

If you want to talk about Syria in 2018, then bring videos and evidence  from 2018. Not sure why your conscience woke up 3 years later.

Edited by shiaman14

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this is this thread in a nutshell

team a. "Bashar is committing war crimes"

team b. "your evidence is from untrusted sources that are sided with wahhabis and zionist"

team a. "yes, but the warcrimes Bashar commited are unacceptable"

team b. *bashes head against the wall
 

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21 minutes ago, kirtc said:


this is this thread in a nutshell

team a. "Bashar is committing war crimes"

team b. "your evidence is from untrusted sources that are sided with wahhabis and zionist"

team a. "yes, but the warcrimes Bashar commited are unacceptable"

team b. *bashes head against the wall
 

With respect my dear brother, i feel that is a little bit unfair. This is how the actual argument has gone:

Myself: There is no doubt mainstream media has twisted facts, used unreliable sources, as have gulf-state news agencies who themselves are funded by countries who back so-called 'rebel' groups in Syria , such as Qatar in the form of al-Jazeera. Syria is a complex war, with an enormous geopolitical prize as well as cost, and countries the world over and regionally have sought to influence it, which led to an enormous influx of terrorists into Syria, and the arming of radical groups even within Syria. Assad is not the butcher the media paints him, however, we can not go to the other extreme and claim his army are infallible either. I believe, based on video evidence, based on his own interview, based on testimony from scores of people in Syria and refugees leaving it, all independently describing common effects of indiscriminate weapons like barrel bombs, based on impact sites independently investigated from the beginning all over Syria, there is compelling evidence to suggest Assads army are using barrel bombs  - and have done for the most part of this conflict. I view these weapons as cheap, deadly, but even if they are aimed to take out terrorists, they disproportionately harm innocent men, women and children. Surely, as followers of the Ahlulbayt we should speak out and at least ask for investigation into this matter and a review, and make it also clear we aren't blind to morally questionable acts committed on any side because of partisan bias.

In fact, the majority of this thread has now actually transformed into assuming he is using them, and questioning that further. Some argue so what if he uses them? Isn't a normal bomb deadly too? Some others have gone into another direction turning this discussion about if there's any alternative to Assad - we know there isn't for now, and that isn't the topic.

Edited by Intellectual Resistance

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42 minutes ago, shiaman14 said:

Leaving aside the comical $2 video editing in the first video which didn't show any evidence other than something dropping out of the sky from an unmarked copter and some explosions including one video from the copter over almost barren land, the reason I keep saying ISIS is because they were the largest threat to Syria and MOST IMPORTANTLY the videos you posted were from Feb-Mar 2015 when ISIS was at the peak of its power.

If you want to talk about Syria in 2018, then bring videos and evidence  from 2018. Not sure why your conscience woke up 3 years later.

Salamualaykum,

The videos of those bombs dropping over Syria are definitely authenticated and ubiquitous. No-one who is aware of the landscape of Syria will deny that is the case. The other fact is that opposition groups, i.e the terrorists, do not own any sort of air force, no helicopter, nor any plane. The only groups that do are Syria and Russia when it comes to fighting these so-called 'moderate' rebels. The videos have been cross examined and they are certainly from Syria, and to add to that, marked or unmarked, Assad and Russia are the only ones with planes and helicopters. That wasn't the only thing brought and in my last post, i detailed everything i feel makes a compelling case that Assad is using barrel bombs.

Now, no-one denies ISIS were an influential and powerful group. However my contention here is that we make a false dichotomy over either Assad or ISIS. Put aside 2015, i would say even as far back as 2013 or earlier, this was also never the case. ISIS had control over large uninhabited lands, and a great number of forces. However, they soon became the enemy of every single group, and every single group by 2013 was fighting them. They were never going to last. The main players have been these so-called 'moderate' rebels, or non-ISIS groups backed by gulf-state/turkey/the west, who were seen as a valid alternative to Assad and who everyone had hoped would take over (that is, everyone who was misinformed or in the wrong side). 

No-one can talk about Syria in one year, and i have never tried to do that. This has been a complex, and evolving conflict.  Remember, according to your analysis, the so-called rebel groups should be dust or almost gone right now, and it should be between Assad and ISIS, and so even if i was (though i don't know why i would ) just referring to 2018, your arguments ought to still apply now.

I also don't know what has given you the impression is the first time i have raised question to Assad? I have considered him a lesser evil, but have always maintained since 2013 that his army were not guilt free either, and had made major errors  , and that no side in this conflict could claim a clean conscience. 

 

Edited by Intellectual Resistance

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2 hours ago, Intellectual Resistance said:

Salamualaykum,

The videos of those bombs dropping over Syria are definitely authenticated and ubiquitous. No-one who is aware of the landscape of Syria will deny that is the case. The other fact is that opposition groups, i.e the terrorists, do not own any sort of air force, no helicopter, nor any plane. The only groups that do are Syria and Russia when it comes to fighting these so-called 'moderate' rebels. The videos have been cross examined and they are certainly from Syria, and to add to that, marked or unmarked, Assad and Russia are the only ones with planes and helicopters. That wasn't the only thing brought and in my last post, i detailed everything i feel makes a compelling case that Assad is using barrel bombs.

So a couple of people are shown in an unmarked helicopter dropping bombs and someone on the outside also captures their video and you are 100% sure it is the Syrian army??? Then somehow UGARIT News obtains the video inside the copter. For those who dont know, UGARIT news are an anti-Assad online news channel. Hardly authenticated nor ubiquitous.

This is laughable if this is what you call analysis and research.

Out of curiosity, what kind of copter was shown in the footage?

 

2 hours ago, Intellectual Resistance said:

Now, no-one denies ISIS were an influential and powerful group. However my contention here is that we make a false dichotomy over either Assad or ISIS. Put aside 2015, i would say even as far back as 2013 or earlier, this was also never the case. ISIS had control over large uninhabited lands, and a great number of forces. However, they soon became the enemy of every single group, and every single group by 2013 was fighting them. They were never going to last. The main players have been these so-called 'moderate' rebels, or non-ISIS groups backed by gulf-state/turkey/the west, who were seen as a valid alternative to Assad and who everyone had hoped would take over (that is, everyone who was misinformed or in the wrong side). 

No-one can talk about Syria in one year, and i have never tried to do that. This has been a complex, and evolving conflict.  Remember, according to your analysis, the so-called rebel groups should be dust or almost gone right now, and it should be between Assad and ISIS, and so even if i was (though i don't know why i would ) just referring to 2018, your arguments ought to still apply now.

I also don't know what has given you the impression is the first time i have raised question to Assad? I have considered him a lesser evil, but have always maintained since 2013 that his army were not guilt free either, and had made major errors  , and that no side in this conflict could claim a clean conscience. 

 

Hence I use ISIS as a generic term for all rebels since they were the largest opposing force in this entire conflict.

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