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In the Name of God بسم الله
786:)

Nahjul Balagha Sermon 127

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Salaam all,

I want to share part of a sermon from Nahjul Balagha--127 to be exact. I am interested to see how it is interpreted by others. I feel like the message is pretty clear and concise. However, I am all ears.

Imam Ali (as) says:

...
With regard to me, two categories of people will be ruined, namely he who loves me too much and the love takes him away from rightfulness, and he who hates me too much and the hatred takes him away from rightfulness. The best man with regard to me is he who is on the middle course. So be with him and be with the great majority (of Muslims) because Allah's hand (of protection) is on keeping unity. You should beware of division because the one isolated from the group is (a prey) to Satan just as the one isolated from the flock of sheep is (a prey) to the wolf. Beware; whoever calls to this course, kill him, even though he may be under this headband of mine. Certainly the two arbitrators were appointed to revive what the Qur'an revives and to destroy what the Qur'an destroys. Revival means to unite on it (in a matter) and destruction means to divide on a matter. If the Qur'an drives us to them we should follow them, and if it drives them to us they should follow up.
...
Source: https://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-1-sermons/sermon-127-if-you-refuse-stop-claiming

Subhanallah!

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Wa aleikum salaam, 

There is a sirat al mustakeen and having extreme love or hate of Imam Ali (as) that takes you out of this sirat will be ruined. Being with the majority is in Unity sense which I fully agree because we are one ummah and we should strive together in Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى way. It does not mean that we should stop be Shias and follow the Sunnis in their beliefs. 

This is exactly good example why khawaarij was ruined. 

Edited by Dhulfikar

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9 hours ago, 786:) said:

Imam Ali (as) says:
With regard to me, two categories of people will be ruined, namely he who loves me too much and the love takes him away from rightfulness, and he who hates me too much and the hatred takes him away from rightfulness. The best man with regard to me is he who is on the middle course. So be with him and be with the great majority (of Muslims) because Allah's hand (of protection) is on keeping unity. You should beware of division because the one isolated from the group is (a prey) to Satan just as the one isolated from the flock of sheep is (a prey) to the wolf. Beware; whoever calls to this course, kill him, even though he may be under this headband of mine. Certainly the two arbitrators were appointed to revive what the Qur'an revives and to destroy what the Qur'an destroys. Revival means to unite on it (in a matter) and destruction means to divide on a matter. If the Qur'an drives us to them we should follow them, and if it drives them to us they should follow up.

The two categories are explained below:

1. extremist in love: those who loves Imam Ali so much that they take him as God  ie Ghali

2. Extremist in hate: Those who hate Imam Ali so much and take him at lower rank and status because of hate ie who have neglected the message of Ghadeer delivered by the prophet saaw.

The evidence can be found from the saying of Imam Ali As about the identification of that great majority: i(e people of jamaa:)

 Imam Ali peace be upon him gave us a thorough definition for the term Jamma'. Al Mutaqi Al Hindi, a prominent Sunni scholar, in Kanzu Al Umal vol 16 page 183, H 44216, said that Imam Ali peace be upon him was asked:

“Who are the people of Jama’a ( congregation, flock or assembly)? Who are the people of disunity and dissension? Who are the people of Sunna (traditions of the prophet)? And who are the people of innovation”?

 Imam Ali peace be upon him replied: “Now that you asked, do store in your mind what I advise you! You must not ask anyone else after I inform you! As for the people of Jama’a (congregation or assembly), they include me and whoever follows me despite their little number . That has been confirmed as the Truth by Allah’s command and his prophet peace be upon him and his family. As for the people of disunity and religious nonconformity, they include all those who oppose me and my followers despite their large numbers.  As for the people of Sunna  (traditions and practices of the prophet peace be upon him and his family), they include those who strictly abide by those traditions and practices despite their little numbers. And as for the people of innovationthey include all those who opposed Allah’s commands, contested the Quran, went up against the prophet peace be upon him and his family and observed their self made decisions and choices despite their huge numbers. The early flock had gone past. Many more flocks are yet to follow. I ask Allah to uproot those deviators from the face of Earth!”

 Nehjul Balagha Sermon no. 200,  One should not be afraid of the scarcity of those who tread on the right path

O' people, do not wonder at the small number of those who follow the right path, because people throng only round the table (of this world) whose edibles are few but whose hunger is insatiable.

wasalam

 

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Before discussing Extreme, Exaggeration. 

Define the Limits that are been violated.

*****
Ayatullah  "Khomeini, the great mystic, says about the Nahjul-Balaghah: “And as for the Nahjul-Balaghah which is a lower level of his [Imam Ali (as)] spirit, it is to teach and train us who are sleeping in the field of egotism and the veil of selfishness….it is a collection with different dimensions the number of that in a human being or a great human society….and no matter how many societies, governments and nations come into existence, and no matter how many philosophers and thinkers and scholars emerge and dive deep into it and drown in it. Oh philosophers and possessors of wisdom! Come and scrutinize and ponder the phrases of the first sermon of this divine book and employ your high thoughts and get help from the learned and great mystics in interpreting and explaining this one sentence and try to satisfy your consciences in understanding its true meaning, … so that the scope of the insight of the ‘son of revelation’ [meaning Imam Ali (as)] will become clear to you and you learn of and admit to your and other’s shortcoming and deficiency, this is the sentence [that I am challenging you to interpret]: “مع کل شیءٍ لابمقارنةٍ و غیر کل شیءٍ لابمزایلةٍ” (He is with everything but not in physical nearness. He is different from everything but not in physical separation)[5].[6]

http://www.islamquest.net/en/archive/question/fa7417

Edited by S.M.H.A.

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I just want to point out, that this can apply to Shias as well. In fact, it actually does apply to Shias. The extremist cults who exaggerated the position of the Imams [asws] attributing to them things such as giving sustenance to the creation came from extremist elements of the Shia,and they were cursed by our Imams (asws). 

Some people like to live in a world whereby they can claim everything and anything about an Imam, so long as they don't claim that Imam is God, and then say all is well. This is wishful thinking and when you're being lowered into your grave, there will be no escape for attributing something to the Imam or Prophet which they did not claim for themselves. If a Prophet or Imam did not claim something about themselves through clear narrations you have no right to use linguistic gymnastics or anything else to claim for certainty that is the case.

Unfortunately, you can also have excess love without being an extremist, or without claiming false things. The way you do that is ignore mentioning Allah very often, ignore the life of the Prophet (saw), ignore the Quran, and revolve your life 24/7 around Nohas and Latmiyahs.

There are some people who have memorised dozens if not hundreds of Latmiyahs, but if you ask them to recite to you ten Surahs from Juzz Amma' , they won't be able to. Many of them don't even know what Juzz Amma' even means. There are some people who will tell you in-depth issues about polemics (even then, flawed and basic and easily refuted by a knowledgable Sunni), but if you ask them to tell you about the life of the Prophet (saw) they'll be lost in much of it. There are some who think the Prophet and Imams are here to take us to them, rather than to God.

A real Shia is one who knows more Surahs in the Quran than Latmiyahs. One who knows more about the Seerah of the Prophet (saw) than the Seerah of anyone else. One who knows more about Allah, his divine attributes, real Tawheed, than anything else. One who is very careful about claiming something about either the Prophet or Imams which he or she does not have clear evidence , or clear argument to support. 

Edited by Intellectual Resistance

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1 hour ago, S.M.H.A. said:

Before discussing Extreme, Exaggeration. 

Define the Limits that are been violated.

*****
Ayatullah  "Khomeini, the great mystic, says about the Nahjul-Balaghah: “And as for the Nahjul-Balaghah which is a lower level of his [Imam Ali (as)] spirit, it is to teach and train us who are sleeping in the field of egotism and the veil of selfishness….it is a collection with different dimensions the number of that in a human being or a great human society….and no matter how many societies, governments and nations come into existence, and no matter how many philosophers and thinkers and scholars emerge and dive deep into it and drown in it. Oh philosophers and possessors of wisdom! Come and scrutinize and ponder the phrases of the first sermon of this divine book and employ your high thoughts and get help from the learned and great mystics in interpreting and explaining this one sentence and try to satisfy your consciences in understanding its true meaning, … so that the scope of the insight of the ‘son of revelation’ [meaning Imam Ali (as)] will become clear to you and you learn of and admit to your and other’s shortcoming and deficiency, this is the sentence [that I am challenging you to interpret]: “مع کل شیءٍ لابمقارنةٍ و غیر کل شیءٍ لابمزایلةٍ” (He is with everything but not in physical nearness. He is different from everything but not in physical separation)[5].[6]

http://www.islamquest.net/en/archive/question/fa7417

Let me just make it clear this final line is referring to Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى. I know you probably know this, but there may be some who might believe that was referring to the created slave of Allah, Ali , the son of Abu Talib (as).  It is from a sermon in Nahj-al-Balagha and part of the tradition of Dhi'lib al-Yamani in the work of Shaykh as-Saduq (ra) as far as i am aware. 

Edited by Intellectual Resistance

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11 minutes ago, Intellectual Resistance said:

I just want to point out, that this can apply to Shias as well. In fact, it actually does apply to Shias. The extremist cults who exaggerated the position of the Imams [asws] attributing to them things such as giving sustenance to the creation came from extremist elements of the Shia,and they were cursed by our Imams (asws). 

Some people like to live in a world whereby they can claim everything and anything about an Imam, so long as they don't claim that Imam is God, and then say all is well. This is wishful thinking and when you're being lowered into your grave, there will be no escape for attributing something to the Imam or Prophet which they did not claim for themselves. If a Prophet or Imam did not claim something about themselves through clear narrations you have no right to use linguistic gymnastics or anything else to claim for certainty that is the case.

Unfortunately, you can also have excess love without being an extremist, or without claiming false things. The way you do that is ignore mentioning Allah very often, ignore the life of the Prophet (saw), ignore the Quran, and revolve your life 24/7 around Nohas and Latmiyahs.

There are some people who have memorised dozens if not hundreds of Latmiyahs, but if you ask them to recite to you ten Surahs from Juzz Amma' , they won't be able to. Many of them don't even know what Juzz Amma' even means. There are some people who will tell you in-depth issues about polemics (even then, flawed and basic and easily refuted by a knowledgable Sunni), but if you ask them to tell you about the life of the Prophet (saw) they'll be lost in much of it. There are some who think the Prophet and Imams are here to take us to them, rather than to God.

A real Shia is one who knows more Surahs in the Quran than Latmiyahs. One who knows more about the Seerah of the Prophet (saw) than the Seerah of anyone else. One who knows more about Allah, his divine attributes, real Tawheed, than anything else. One who is very careful about claiming something about either the Prophet or Imams which he or she does not have clear evidence , or clear argument to support. 

SubhanAllah. I could not have put it any better. My exact feelings.

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I am not interested in distraction and people high fiving each other.

Get to the Point. One at a time, Step by Step, take baby steps -

Outline  the First basic and fundamental concern. Starting with your understanding of the concept after that what you see is wrong. Clearly Articulate it.

 

 

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7 minutes ago, 786:) said:

SubhanAllah. I could not have put it any better. My exact feelings.

Unfortunately, the reason why the billions of Hindus and Christians won't convert to Islam, and by extension why many Sunni brethren may not embrace the path of ale-Muhammed is the very same reason why some groups of Shias will hold dearly to popular myths and misconceptions they are growing up and being taught. We are emotional beings, and our beliefs give us a grounded world view and create our bubble. Anyone trying to tell us different will be met with great initial resistance as they challenge our world view, because in a way, it is like challenging who they are.

My view is, if you're going to be objective, as much as possible put emotions aside and look at things with a critical eye, anyone will be able to get close to the truth.

The irony is everyone knows this already, and accuses the other group of not doing it while they are party to it themselves.  

Edited by Intellectual Resistance

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@S.M.H.A. In my first post, I stated that I want to see how others interpret this sermon. So, before you start with your scope clearance request, I would like you to provide your interpretation on this narration. Essentially, what do you learn from the narration? I will be more than happy to move forward from there.

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1 hour ago, skyweb1987 said:

The two categories are explained below:

1. extremist in love: those who loves Imam Ali so much that they take him as God  ie Ghali

2. Extremist in hate: Those who hate Imam Ali so much and take him at lower rank and status because of hate ie who have neglected the message of Ghadeer delivered by the prophet saaw.

So according to you, the first group is limited to those who take him as God? Those who push the limits of tawheed do not qualify for this group?

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6 minutes ago, 786:) said:

So according to you, the first group is limited to those who take him as God? Those who push the limits of tawheed do not qualify for this group?

First the words of Imam Ali have been neglected by yourself where the people of Jamma (as mentioned in the sermon 127) ie majority term has been used in the sermon and the words of Imam Ali from Kunzu lummal describe it as followers of Imam Ali AS. Similarly the words form nehjul balagah sermon 200 are not given any thought.

Would you like to explain your words with any difference from those who consider Imam Ali AS as God?

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It's not just about loving Imam Ali (as), we are supposed to follow him. The question should be, 'do we actually love Imam Ali (as) so much that we start following his sunnah?'

In my opinion this statement is addressed to irrational people who consider love to be "singing a few songs of Imam Ali (as) and dancing like crazy" Such people take love to a certain extreme where they consider Imam Ali (as) to be God. 

We all should love Imam Ali (as) as much as we want, but it should mean that we should imitate the way Imam Ali (as) lived his life.

 

 

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10 minutes ago, skyweb1987 said:

First the words of Imam Ali have been neglected by yourself where the people of Jamma (as mentioned in the sermon 127) ie majority term has been used in the sermon and the words of Imam Ali from Kunzu lummal describe it as followers of Imam Ali AS. Similarly the words form nehjul balagah sermon 200 are not given any thought.

Would you like to explain your words with any difference from those who consider Imam Ali AS as God?

hmm I do not know many Muslims who do not follow or attempt to follow Imam Ali. To put it into context, essentially he was calling out the Khwarjites because they opposed him. Correct? This put the Khwarjites outside of his defined Jammah. The rest of the Muslims at the time of this sermon "followed" him--This included the ones who loved him to the extreme. But according to you, this sermon applies to 90% of Muslims. And the majority he was referring to happens to be the 10% of Muslims today? Interesting...

Edited by 786:)

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2 hours ago, skyweb1987 said:

The two categories are explained below:

1. extremist in love: those who loves Imam Ali so much that they take him as God  ie Ghali

 

Salam brother, i hope you are well.

The first group is not limited to those who claim he is Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى or God Almighty, or another God. Rather exaggeration of Imam Ali (as) or the Prophet (saw) or any of the Aimmah (asws) can be claiming a thing about them which they did not claim for themselves, or attributing false beliefs to them, or attributing to them what really may only truly belong to the creator.

For example, there was a cult of extremists cursed by the Imams, who believe Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى created the universe, and then delegated the running of the universe to the Imams. So the Imams were given the power by Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى to reckon creation as they will. This isn't exactly calling them Gods, or claiming they are Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى. However what it does it negate the reality that all occurs only through the will of Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى, his power, his command, his authority and furthermore it attributes a false belief to created beings.  This belief was known  as Tafweed. 

Imam Ali Ridha a.s said that "Whoever has faith that Allah has handed over the authority of creating and giving sustenance to Imamain a.s is believer of "Tafweed" and whoever has faith on "Jabar" is Kafir and whoever has faith on "Tafweed" is mushrik"  [Ayun ul Akhbar e Raza P. 83] [Ehtajaj Tabrasi P. 225]

From Yāsir, the servant, said, I said to al-Riḍā  a.s‘What do you say about al-Tafwīd?’ And he said: ‘Allāh  delegated (fawwaḍa) to His prophet affairs of His religion’, and He said: “Take whatever the Messenger gives to you, and deny for yourself whatever he prohibits” (59:7). As for (delegating) the creation and sustenance, then No! He said: ‘Allāh says “Allāh is the creator of all things’ (3:16) and He says “It is Allāh, He has created you, then He has given you sustenance, then He has made you die, then He has brought you back to life, are there any of your partners who can does of that any of these things? Glory be to Allāh, and High is He from the partners (they attribute)” (30:40)
Source: al-Sadooq, `Uyoon al-Akhbaar, vol. 2, ch. 46, pg. 202-203, hadeeth # 3

 

You have some people believing the Prophet (saw) and Imams know absolutely every single thing and have omnipresent, instantaneous knowledge:

Abu Basir narrated, ‘I told Abu `Aabdillah [i.e. Imam al-Sadiq (AS)]: ‘Verily they are saying things [about you]!’ He asked, ‘What are they saying?’ to which I replied, ‘[They are saying], ‘He knows the number of drops of rain, the number of stars and the leaves on the trees, and the weight of all that is in the sea, and the number of grains of sand.’ So he raised his hands to the sky, saying, ‘Glory be to Allah, Glory be to Allah. No, by Allah, no one knows this except Allah.’ 

أبو بصيرٍ: قلتُ لأبي عبدِاللّه‏ِ علَيهِ الصَّلاةُ والسلامُ: إنّهم يقولونَ ! قالَ: وما يَقولونَ ؟ قلتُ: يقولونَ: يَعلَمُ قَطْرَ المَطَرِ، وعَدَدَ النُّجومِ ووَرَقَ الشَّجَرِ، ووَزنَ ما في البَحرِ، وعَددَ التُّرابِ، فَرَفَعَ يَدَهُ إلَى السماءِ وقالَ: سبحانَ اللّه‏ِ سبحانَ اللّه‏ِ، لا واللّه‏ِ ما يَعلمُ هذا إلّا اللّه‏ُ .

[Saheeh - Rijal al-Kahi]

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14 minutes ago, 786:) said:

hmm I do not know many Muslims who do not follow or attempt to follow Imam Ali. To put it into context, essentially he was calling out the Khwarjites because they opposed him. Correct? This put the Khwarjites outside of his defined Jammah. The rest of the Muslims at the time of this sermon "followed" him--This included the ones who loved him to the extreme. But according to you, this sermon applies to 90% of Muslims. And the majority he was referring to happens to be the 10% of Muslims today? Interesting...

1  Your claim of all Muslims follow Imam Ali AS is just a conjecture

2. Your statistic are poor and these are denial of the words of Imam Ali yet claim is that all Muslims follow imam Ali. :grin:

Edited by skyweb1987

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1 minute ago, skyweb1987 said:

1  Your claim of all Muslims Imam Ali AS is just a conjecture

2. Your statistic are poor and these are denial of the words of Imam Ali yet claim is that all Muslims follow imam Ali. :grin:

Please enlighten me as to what constitutes following? Do you believe at the time of this rule, his followers/supporters/congregation included those who accepted the rule of the first 3 caliphs? Or was his congregation (aka following) limited to those who rejected the first 3 caliphs?

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4 minutes ago, Intellectual Resistance said:

Salam brother, i hope you are well.

The first group is not limited to those who claim he is Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى or God Almighty, or another God. Rather exaggeration of Imam Ali (as) or the Prophet (saw) or any of the Aimmah (asws) can be claiming a thing about them which they did not claim for themselves, or attributing false beliefs to them, or attributing to them what really may only truly belong to the creator.

For example, there was a cult of extremists cursed by the Imams, who believe Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى created the universe, and then delegated the running of the universe to the Imams. So the Imams were given the power by Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى to reckon creation as they will. This isn't exactly calling them Gods, or claiming they are Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى. However what it does it negate the reality that all occurs only through the will of Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى, his power, his command, his authority and furthermore it attributes a false belief to created beings.  This belief was known  as Tafweed. 

Imam Ali Ridha a.s said that "Whoever has faith that Allah has handed over the authority of creating and giving sustenance to Imamain a.s is believer of "Tafweed" and whoever has faith on "Jabar" is Kafir and whoever has faith on "Tafweed" is mushrik"  [Ayun ul Akhbar e Raza P. 83] [Ehtajaj Tabrasi P. 225]

From Yāsir, the servant, said, I said to al-Riḍā  a.s‘What do you say about al-Tafwīd?’ And he said: ‘Allāh  delegated (fawwaḍa) to His prophet affairs of His religion’, and He said: “Take whatever the Messenger gives to you, and deny for yourself whatever he prohibits” (59:7). As for (delegating) the creation and sustenance, then No! He said: ‘Allāh says “Allāh is the creator of all things’ (3:16) and He says “It is Allāh, He has created you, then He has given you sustenance, then He has made you die, then He has brought you back to life, are there any of your partners who can does of that any of these things? Glory be to Allāh, and High is He from the partners (they attribute)” (30:40)
Source: al-Sadooq, `Uyoon al-Akhbaar, vol. 2, ch. 46, pg. 202-203, hadeeth # 3

 

You have some people believing the Prophet (saw) and Imams know absolutely every single thing and have omnipresent, instantaneous knowledge:

Abu Basir narrated, ‘I told Abu `Aabdillah [i.e. Imam al-Sadiq (AS)]: ‘Verily they are saying things [about you]!’ He asked, ‘What are they saying?’ to which I replied, ‘[They are saying], ‘He knows the number of drops of rain, the number of stars and the leaves on the trees, and the weight of all that is in the sea, and the number of grains of sand.’ So he raised his hands to the sky, saying, ‘Glory be to Allah, Glory be to Allah. No, by Allah, no one knows this except Allah.’ 

أبو بصيرٍ: قلتُ لأبي عبدِاللّه‏ِ علَيهِ الصَّلاةُ والسلامُ: إنّهم يقولونَ ! قالَ: وما يَقولونَ ؟ قلتُ: يقولونَ: يَعلَمُ قَطْرَ المَطَرِ، وعَدَدَ النُّجومِ ووَرَقَ الشَّجَرِ، ووَزنَ ما في البَحرِ، وعَددَ التُّرابِ، فَرَفَعَ يَدَهُ إلَى السماءِ وقالَ: سبحانَ اللّه‏ِ سبحانَ اللّه‏ِ، لا واللّه‏ِ ما يَعلمُ هذا إلّا اللّه‏ُ .

[Saheeh - Rijal al-Kahi]

Thanks for sharing the hadith. I know the matter of tafweed but i have not mentioned any where that i  have believe in it that the matters are tafweed to Imams. No certainly not.

One should not   exaggerate the things at its own. However my views about the hadith are very clear.

wasalam

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6 minutes ago, 786:) said:

hmm I do not know many Muslims who do not follow or attempt to follow Imam Ali. To put it into context, essentially he was calling out the Khwarjites because they opposed him. Correct? This put the Khwarjites outside of his defined Jammah. The rest of the Muslims at the time of this sermon "followed" him--This included the ones who loved him to the extreme. But according to you, this sermon applies to 90% of Muslims. And the majority he was referring to happens to be the 10% of Muslims today? Interesting...

Arguably, if this was during his Caliphate this was not so. You had M'uawiyah and his group opposing him vehemently, and then you had groups even among Medina who opposed him.  Now, one possible interpretation is that he sought for the unity also far as the state he governed was concerned, given at the time men like M'uawiah, and even other notable companions were all planning their own schisms and divisions. He lived in what was probably one of the more volatile periods of leadership where he was part of three major wars and incredible dissension.  This is just my view for now, but i'll do more reading.

Also, the real proportion is about 80-85 to 15-20%. I know that doesn't change equations much but this is just an unrelated point. Given how difficult it is to openly be a Shia many have even given estimates higher than that for the true percentage of Shias. And even in that 80-85% of Sunnis, there are enormous variants of Aqeedah, and the simple and fundamental belief of what Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى is if we can say that. The Salafis have one view,  the Asharis have another view, and this essential doctrine (Tawheed) is extremely hotly disputed upon. I don't know how we can progress forward when there's that level of division over a fundamental doctrine. I don't think it refers to what is doctrinally the truth, or an appeal to numbers.

J'ama does not always mean majority as there are multiple connotations. 

 

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5 minutes ago, Intellectual Resistance said:

J'ama does not always mean majority as there are multiple connotations. 

This is the interpretation given by the words of Imam Ali AS yet seems difficult to understand by the people.

wasalam

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and revolve your life 24/7 around Nohas and Latmiyahs.

I realized that this is just an illusion among our community. This did not even happen in time of our Imams (as), actually in their time they were busy following and obeying Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى and remembering him more than anything and reciting Qur'an and discussing among them about Quran and Sunnah.

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1 minute ago, Dhulfikar said:

I realized that this is just an illusion among our community. This did not even happen in time of our Imams (as), actually in their time they were busy following and obeying Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى and remembering him more than anything and reciting Qur'an and discussing among them about Quran and Sunnah.

Often times the poetry (no matter how ghulluw or borderline shirk it may be) is defended as intensely as the Holy Quran in our communities. It is encouraging to see others accept the reality behind it. Alhumdulillah.

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4 minutes ago, 786:) said:

Often times the poetry (no matter how ghulluw or borderline shirk it may be) is defended as intensely as the Holy Quran in our communities. It is encouraging to see others accept the reality behind it. Alhumdulillah.

Alhamdulillah at least there are some people who take it seriously and even ban some of them visiting Najaf/Karbala spreading such a poetry.

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sawad al-a'tham = great majority

sawad also means black cloth, mourning, fertile ground, inner core.  One can interpret this to mean that this great majority are those who wear black and who mourn.  :) 

 

image.png.625a41d5ecf0db3e6f49a21b4935b692.png

 

 

Edited by eThErEaL

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Just now, Dhulfikar said:

Alhamdulillah at least there are some people who take it seriously and even ban some of them visiting Najaf/Karbala spreading such a poetry.

Those banned individuals are heroes in some communities. Its truly a tragedy. And the filth that comes out of their mouths...Astaghfirullah.

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4 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

sawad al-a'tham = great majority

sawad also means black cloth, mourning.  One can interpret this to mean that this great majority are those who wear black and who mourn.  

I cant tell if you are genuine or sarastic.

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12 hours ago, 786:) said:

Salaam all,

I want to share part of a sermon from Nahjul Balagha--127 to be exact. I am interested to see how it is interpreted by others. I feel like the message is pretty clear and concise. However, I am all ears.

Imam Ali (as) says:

...
With regard to me, two categories of people will be ruined, namely he who loves me too much and the love takes him away from rightfulness, and he who hates me too much and the hatred takes him away from rightfulness. The best man with regard to me is he who is on the middle course. So be with him and be with the great majority (of Muslims) because Allah's hand (of protection) is on keeping unity. You should beware of division because the one isolated from the group is (a prey) to Satan just as the one isolated from the flock of sheep is (a prey) to the wolf. Beware; whoever calls to this course, kill him, even though he may be under this headband of mine. Certainly the two arbitrators were appointed to revive what the Qur'an revives and to destroy what the Qur'an destroys. Revival means to unite on it (in a matter) and destruction means to divide on a matter. If the Qur'an drives us to them we should follow them, and if it drives them to us they should follow up.
...
Source: https://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-1-sermons/sermon-127-if-you-refuse-stop-claiming

Subhanallah!

The sermon is about Kharjees. It is quite simple to understand.

Dont be like the nusayri.
Don't be like the Kharjee.

Nothing more to it.

Special thanks to @Intellectual Resistance for writing a lot here but almost nothing related to the sermon itself.

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5 minutes ago, 786:) said:

I cant tell if you are genuine or sarastic.

It is something to think about...

Imam Ali (as) didn't use any other word for "majority".  He used "sawad  al- a'tham"

Correct me if I am wrong but "sawad" by itself means part, inner core, fertile earth, black clothing, mourning....

So stick with the majority from even among the Shias (which are the 12ver Shias).  :)

 

 

 

 

Edited by eThErEaL

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8 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

It is something to think about...

Imam Ali (as) didn't use any other word for "majority".  He used "sawad  al- a'tham"

Correct me if I am wrong but "sawad" by itself means part, inner core, fertile earth, black clothing, mourning....

So stick with the majority from even among the Shias (which are the 12ver Shias).  :)

 

Not sure how you get clothing from sawad. Black--sure. But clothing?

Not trying to be rude, but you do know that 12ers have not always been the majority subsect of Shias right? Different subsects--whether Ismailis or Zaydis have had their time as the majority. Thats not to say that 100 years later there is another subsect at the top of the mountain. Sorry, just trying to be objective here.

Edited by 786:)

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Thanks for your objectivity.  The most reasonable explanation is as one of you has already said regarding the nusairis and the kharijis because that seems to be the historical context of the sermon.  In which case, great majority has nothing to do with our context post the Islamic theological era (between Ahl Sunna Wal-Jama and "Shias"). 

I think that this word "sawad al-a'tham" is something to reflect upon.  "great majority" with respect to quantity or quality?  Correct me if I am wrong but I think the "sawad" indicates something to do with the inner part or center of something (kind of like the pupil in relation to the rest of the eye).  It is referring to something fertile and rich.  Whatever it is, it is one with the rest of the eye and yet something "elite" in the sense that it is the essence of whole religion.  It is so elite that it wouldn't identify itself as this or that group (whether it is be 12ver or Zaidi, Sunni, etc).      

 

 

  

 

 

Edited by eThErEaL

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