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In the Name of God بسم الله
yam_110

Treatment of Bibi Fatima (sa) by the Caliphs

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14 hours ago, Wisdom007 said:

1/ Not that I am aware of or any SUNNI is aware of.

2/ A big NO!

3/ fake story? Yes!

again your own conclusions based on not so solid evidence.

1. You are either lying or pretending to be ignorant of this well known fact. Speak to someone you consider to be an alim and he will tell what's written in your own books.

2. You mean Bibi Fatima (sa) didn't ask for Fadak to be returned to her? 

3. Again, you can't run from your own books. Read them properly before  jumping to incorrect conclusions.

We read in Musnaf of Imam Ibn Abi Shebah, Volume 7 page 432 Tradition 37045:

“Narrated Muhammad bin Bashir from Ubaidllah bin Umar from Zaid bin Aslam that his father Aslam said: ‘When the homage (baya) went to Abu Bakr after the Messenger of Allah, Ali and Zubair were entering into the house of Fatima to consult her and revise their issue, so when Umar came to know about that, he went to Fatima and said : ‘Oh daughter of Messenger of Allah, no one is dearest to us more than your father and no one dearest to us after your father than you, I swear by Allah, if these people gathered in your house then nothing will prevent me from giving order to burn the house and those who are inside.’

All the narrators are authentic as they are the narrators of Sahih Bukhari & Sahih Muslim. Muhammad bin Bashir: Imam Al-Dhahabi said: ‘Thabt’ (Al-Kaashif, v2 p159), Imam Ibn Hajar Asqalani said: ‘Thiqa’ (Taqrib al-Tahdib, v2 p58). Ubaidllah bin Umar: Al-Dhahabi said: ‘Thabt’ (Al-Kaashif, v1 p685), Ibn Hajar Asqalani said: ‘Thiqa Thabt’ (Taqrib al-Tahdib, v1 p637). Zaid bin Aslam: Al-Dhahabi said: ‘Hujja’ (Siar alam alnubala, v5 p316), Imam Ibn Hajar Asqalani said: ‘Thiqa’ (Taqrib al-Tahdib, v1 p326). Aslam al-Qurashi (the slave of Umar): Al-Dhahabi said: ‘Faqih, Imam’ (Siar alam alnubala, v4 p98), Ibn Hajar Asqalani said: ‘Thiqa’ (Taqrib al-Tahdib, v1 p88).

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17 minutes ago, kirtc said:

also, even if the word was misplaced... the hadith clearly states abu bakr rejected bibi fatima's a.s request which is unacceptable 

yet "wisdom" fails to see where the dispute is lol

He has to be deceitful in his words here otherwise there is no way he can defend the actions of his masters.

Never have I heard from anyone before saying that Bibi Fatima (sa) was not angry with Abu Bakr. So far people have only tried to downplay the anger but to no avail but this is the first. He even goes to the point of discrediting a hadith in Sahih Bukhari... Lol

How low can one stoop?

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9 minutes ago, ephemeral said:

brother i love sayings and preachings nahjul al balagha has. i dint read or have gone through everything that it has .. in sha Allah hope to do it in the future, for now could you please give me brief hadith of my answer. will highly appreciate it please.

Nabi musa a.s left his people for 30 days.. he left haroun a.s as his wali.. when Allah extended musa's absence to 40 days. the people left the religion and started worshipping a calf!. only 1 month after he was gone lol! people went astray. same thing happened with Jesus and peter.. after jesus a.s died paul took over and made up the trinity when infact peter was supposed to take over

back to musa, when he came back he saw his people worshipping a calf and became furious. he went to his wali haroun

 

7:150] And when Musa returned to his people, wrathful (and) in violent grief, he said: Evil is it that you have done after me; did you turn away from the bidding of your Lord?

And he threw down the tablets and seized his brother by the head, dragging him towards him. He said: Son of my mother! Surely the people reckoned me weak and had well-nigh slain me, therefore make not the enemies to rejoice over me and count me not among the unjust people.

 

 

Imam Ali's position is like of haroun's.. if he fought back at the time he would have been over powered and killed. imam ali a.s is like haroun in many ways.. there is even a hadeeth saying that he is to the prophet like haroun is to musa.

even imam ali's kids have the same name in meaning as harouns kids

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6 hours ago, Wisdom007 said:

My trusted book is only Quran bro

If you are true to your word, please prove the hadith used by Abu Bakr to deny Bibi Fatima (sa) her rights from Quran? Can you prove Abu Bakr's position on inheritance of prophets from Quran?

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2 hours ago, Wisdom007 said:

Lol I have explained as to the reason why it’s of no benefit for ahlu tashayyu to use the Hadith with the word anger. If it still is hard for you to fathom that and instead go into sarcasm.....then......good luck it just shows how academic you are in your answers.

Yes she ra passed away happy hence Her husband ra gave allegiance Happily. Nothing hard to understand about that.

Brother Fatima ra has passed away....yes like I said before we do love ahlubaith ra, something that was done centuries ago  (supposed anger) has been rectified and they were happy with it should be left at that no khaliph out of the 3 were ever angry with Fatima ra, there is much more evidence and solid evidences to that fact. Your pulling on straws here.

we do love ahlubaith ra we just don’t add anything divine to them, if thats what makes you think that we don’t love them because we don’t believ they are divinely chosen then that’s your folly but it doesn’t mean Sunni hate them.

The reality is you are using weak evidences to support a theory. It doesn’t and won’t work they’re not good arguments they won’t stand the light of day I mean look at this thread.

We have other evidences She ra did rectify with Abu Bakr ra before She ra passed away. She was buried by Her husband alone so what? Then the husband came to the khaliph and apologised and gave Bayat and was happy with the leader......it’s in the same Hadith.

We do love ahlubaith ra but to use flimsy evidences of how Sunnis hate Them ra is very ingenious and shallow, even ahlubaith ra wouldn’t use such standards to argue their points.

I tried to get academic with you but you wouldn't answer. Simple question - is the hadith correct or wrong?

We agree on one thing though - Sahih Bukhari is weak evidence.

Edited by shiaman14

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What brother Wisdom is trying to say is that just because something is in Bukhari, doesn't make it automatically authentic. In the science of Hadith, it's clear that sometimes a narrator can add statements that were not in the original narration. For example the famous narration of the Prophet (saw) wanting to jump off Mt.Hira is actually not something transmitted originally but added by another narrator and so that statement itself is regarded as disconnected from the Prophet (saw) given the person later has no connected source to a companion for that addition.

So in this example i suppose what he is saying is that the part added about Fatima (as) being angry with the first Caliph isn't something narrated by a Sahaba, but someone later on adding in that line and known for adding in certain opinions and statements about events they narrate.

However, one can clearly prove she and Ali (asws) were indeed angry, opposed, and rebuked the Caliphs to Sunnis who go down this line of arguing. 

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Sermon 200: By Allah, Mu’awiyah is not more cunning than I am….

Treason and treachery of Mu’awiyah and the fate of those guilty of treason

ومن كلام له (عليه السلام)

في معاوية

By Allah, 1 Mu’awiyah is not more cunning than I am, but he deceives and commits evil deeds. Had it not been for the reprehensibility of deceit, I would have been the most cunning of all men. But (the fact is that) every deceit is a sin and every sin is disobedience (of Allah), and every deceitful person will have a banner by which he will be recognised on the Day of Judgement. By Allah, I cannot be made forgetful by strategy, nor can I be overpowered by hardships.

وَاللهِ مَا مُعَاوِيَةُ بِأَدْهَى مِنِّي، وَلكِنَّهُ يَغْدِرُ وَيَفْجُرُ، وَلَوْلاَ كَرَاهِيَةُ الْغَدْرِ لَكُنْتُ مِنْ أَدْهَى النَّاسِ، وَلَكِنْ كُلُّ غَدْرَة فَجْرَةٌ، وَكُلُّ فَجْرَة كَفْرَةٌ، وَلِكُلِّ غَادِر لِوَاءٌ يُعْرَفُ بِهِ يَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ. وَاللهِ مَا أَسْتَغْفَلُ بالْمَكِيدَةِ، وَلاَ أُسْتَغْمَزُ بالشَّدِيدَةِ.

Alternative Sources for Sermon 200

(1) Al-Kulayni, Usul al-Kafi, II, 336, 338.

https://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-1-sermons/sermon-200-Allah-muawiyah-not-more-cunning-i-am

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16 hours ago, yam_110 said:

1. You are either lying or pretending to be ignorant of this well known fact. Speak to someone you consider to be an alim and he will tell what's written in your own books.

2. You mean Bibi Fatima (sa) didn't ask for Fadak to be returned to her? 

3. Again, you can't run from your own books. Read them properly before  jumping to incorrect conclusions.

We read in Musnaf of Imam Ibn Abi Shebah, Volume 7 page 432 Tradition 37045:

“Narrated Muhammad bin Bashir from Ubaidllah bin Umar from Zaid bin Aslam that his father Aslam said: ‘When the homage (baya) went to Abu Bakr after the Messenger of Allah, Ali and Zubair were entering into the house of Fatima to consult her and revise their issue, so when Umar came to know about that, he went to Fatima and said : ‘Oh daughter of Messenger of Allah, no one is dearest to us more than your father and no one dearest to us after your father than you, I swear by Allah, if these people gathered in your house then nothing will prevent me from giving order to burn the house and those who are inside.’

All the narrators are authentic as they are the narrators of Sahih Bukhari & Sahih Muslim. Muhammad bin Bashir: Imam Al-Dhahabi said: ‘Thabt’ (Al-Kaashif, v2 p159), Imam Ibn Hajar Asqalani said: ‘Thiqa’ (Taqrib al-Tahdib, v2 p58). Ubaidllah bin Umar: Al-Dhahabi said: ‘Thabt’ (Al-Kaashif, v1 p685), Ibn Hajar Asqalani said: ‘Thiqa Thabt’ (Taqrib al-Tahdib, v1 p637). Zaid bin Aslam: Al-Dhahabi said: ‘Hujja’ (Siar alam alnubala, v5 p316), Imam Ibn Hajar Asqalani said: ‘Thiqa’ (Taqrib al-Tahdib, v1 p326). Aslam al-Qurashi (the slave of Umar): Al-Dhahabi said: ‘Faqih, Imam’ (Siar alam alnubala, v4 p98), Ibn Hajar Asqalani said: ‘Thiqa’ (Taqrib al-Tahdib, v1 p88).

No-one can deny there is compelling evidence a threat was made. We have corroborating and multiple-independent sources, some reliable to Sunnis like this one, in addition to a strong motive, strong supporting back-ground facts, and much more. 

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1 hour ago, Intellectual Resistance said:

What brother Wisdom is trying to say is that just because something is in Bukhari, doesn't make it automatically authentic. In the science of Hadith, it's clear that sometimes a narrator can add statements that were not in the original narration. For example the famous narration of the Prophet (saw) wanting to jump off Mt.Hira is actually not something transmitted originally but added by another narrator and so that statement itself is regarded as disconnected from the Prophet (saw) given the person later has no connected source to a companion for that addition.

So in this example i suppose what he is saying is that the part added about Fatima (as) being angry with the first Caliph isn't something narrated by a Sahaba, but someone later on adding in that line and known for adding in certain opinions and statements about events they narrate.

However, one can clearly prove she and Ali (asws) were indeed angry, opposed, and rebuked the Caliphs to Sunnis who go down this line of arguing. 

All @Wisdom007 has to do then is simply confirm that Sahih Bukhari is in fact not sahih.

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18 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

It seems that you mistaken humbleness with being not angry

Even prophet (pbu) not always a happy person if religion was in danger he was angry about that than any person 

Their happiness & anger were for Allah & religion not themselves 

Prophet said who make Fatima (sa) makes me angry me .

& we know who make prophet  (pbu) make Allah angry .

 

i agree with you 100% , but brother please tell me when Quran teaches us to speak up for injustice

O you who have believed, be persistently standing firm in justice, witnesses for Allah, even if it be against yourselves or parents and relatives. Whether one is rich or poor, Allah is more worthy of both. So follow not [personal] inclination, lest you not be just. And if you distort [your testimony] or refuse [to give it], then indeed Allah is ever, with what you do, Acquainted.surah 4:135

and if religion was in danger then why did she die angry and did not speak or stood against them firmly ? 

why did ali a.s joined Abu bakr ra and umar ra if they were putting religion in danger ?

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19 hours ago, kirtc said:

Nabi musa a.s left his people for 30 days.. he left haroun a.s as his wali.. when Allah extended musa's absence to 40 days. the people left the religion and started worshipping a calf!. only 1 month after he was gone lol! people went astray. same thing happened with Jesus and peter.. after jesus a.s died paul took over and made up the trinity when infact peter was supposed to take over

back to musa, when he came back he saw his people worshipping a calf and became furious. he went to his wali haroun

 

7:150] And when Musa returned to his people, wrathful (and) in violent grief, he said: Evil is it that you have done after me; did you turn away from the bidding of your Lord?

And he threw down the tablets and seized his brother by the head, dragging him towards him. He said: Son of my mother! Surely the people reckoned me weak and had well-nigh slain me, therefore make not the enemies to rejoice over me and count me not among the unjust people.

 

 

Imam Ali's position is like of haroun's.. if he fought back at the time he would have been over powered and killed. imam ali a.s is like haroun in many ways.. there is even a hadeeth saying that he is to the prophet like haroun is to musa.

even imam ali's kids have the same name in meaning as harouns kids

brother haroun was weak wasnt as strong as musa a.s . Ali a.s on the other hand Ali a.s is stronger than musa a.s ( correct me if i am wrong , i am saying this after reading an article in al-islam where imams are above prophets except mohammed a.s  as he is above imams). Also ali a.s is infallible , i dont think he would be scared for his life (astagfirulla) doing that which is right.

he slept on prophet's bed with out caring for his life .

Edited by ephemeral

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13 minutes ago, ephemeral said:

and if religion was in danger then why did she die angry and did not speak or stood against them firmly ? 

why did ali a.s joined Abu bakr ra and umar ra if they were putting religion in danger ?

Salam she stands against them & also Umm Salama supports her  & Imam Ali not joined them but in hard situation helped them because I he at that time raise against them would put all Muslim community in danger being attacked by foreign countries I recommend you to read the Nahjulbalaqa source that provide for you that he explains it this situation there.

https://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-1-sermons

 

https://www.al-islam.org/articles/hazrat-zahra-sa-and-heart-rending-episode-fadak-ayatullah-makarem-shirazi

 

https://www.al-islam.org/media/fatimas-sermon-fadakiya-madinah-part-1

 

https://www.al-islam.org/media/fatimas-sermon-fadakiya-madinah-part-1

 

 

Edited by Ashvazdanghe

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2 minutes ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam she stands against them & also Umm Salama supports her  & Imam Ali not joined them but in hard situation helped them because I he at that time raise against them would put all Muslim community in danger being attacked by foreign countries I recommend you to read the Nahjulbalaqa source that provide for you that he explains it this situation there.

i dont understand how and few links in there . Anyways shukran for  helping brother . In sha Allah will try to read it , problem is its big and has many parts to it.These days am occupied with lot many things and so i hardly find time for myself. so , little time i find i am  trying my best  to learn about religion .

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18 minutes ago, ephemeral said:

brother haroun was weak wasnt as strong as musa a.s . Ali a.s on the other hand Ali a.s is stronger than musa a.s ( correct me if i am wrong , i am saying this after reading an article in al-islam where imams are above prophets except mohammed a.s  as he is above imams). Also ali a.s is infallible , i dont think he would be scared for his life (astagfirulla) doing that which is right.

he slept on prophet's bed with out caring for his life .

He is the strongest warrior, and he has no fear.. but he had no supporters to fight with him.

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17 minutes ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Umm Salama

Whenever someone takes the name of Umm-e-Salama, My heart starts to become heavy and my eyes become full of Tears. My Mother Umm-e-Salama :cryhappy:

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