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Treatment of Bibi Fatima (sa) by the Caliphs

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13 minutes ago, Wisdom007 said:

Bukhari shareef 

muslim shareef

Sahih Bukhari Volume 004, Book 053, Hadith Number 325.

Narated By 'Aisha : (Mother of the believers) After the death of Allah 's Apostle Fatima the daughter of Allah's Apostle asked Abu Bakr As-Siddiq to give her, her share of inheritance from what Allah's Apostle had left of the Fai (i.e. booty gained without fighting) which Allah had given him. Abu Bakr said to her, "Allah's Apostle said, 'Our property will not be inherited, whatever we (i.e. prophets) leave is Sadaqa (to be used for charity)." Fatima, the daughter of Allah's Apostle got angry and stopped speaking to Abu Bakr, and continued assuming that attitude till she died. Fatima remained alive for six months after the death of Allah's Apostle
 
so @Wisdom007 is this a fake hadith? it is from bukhari.

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Fatimah the daughter of the Prophet sent someone to Abu Bakr (when he was a caliph), asking for her inheritance of what Allah’s Apostle had left of the property bestowed on him by Allah from the Fai (i.e. booty gained without fighting) in Medina, and Fadak, and what remained of the Khumus of the Khaibar booty. ...but Abu Bakr refused to give anything of that to Fatimah. So she became angry with Abu Bakr and kept away from him, and did not task to him till she died. She remained alive for six months after the death of the Prophet. When she died, her husband ‘‘Ali, buried her at night without informing Abu Bakr and he said the funeral prayer by himself.

Sunni References:

- Sahih al-Bukhari, Chapter of "The battle of Khaibar", Arabic-English, v5, tradition #546, pp 381-383, also v4, Tradition #325

(Please see the appendix for the whole tradition.)

Now either Fatimah was liar or Abu Bakr treated her unjustly. If she was liar, then she did not deserve such a saying from the Prophet that Fatimah is a part of me and whoever angers her, angers me. This itself is a clear indication of her infallibility. The purification sentence of the Holy Qur’an (the last sentence of verse 33:33) is another indication of her infallibility, as Aisha herself testified (See Sahih Muslim, 1980 Edition, Arabic, v4, p1883, Tradition #61). Hence there is nothing left for the sensible people but to accept the fact that she was unjustly treated, and that she was easy to be branded as a liar by Umar who was willing to let her burn unless the remaining people in her house come out to vote for Abu Bakr.

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2 hours ago, kirtc said:

Sahih Bukhari Volume 004, Book 053, Hadith Number 325.

Narated By 'Aisha : (Mother of the believers) After the death of Allah 's Apostle Fatima the daughter of Allah's Apostle asked Abu Bakr As-Siddiq to give her, her share of inheritance from what Allah's Apostle had left of the Fai (i.e. booty gained without fighting) which Allah had given him. Abu Bakr said to her, "Allah's Apostle said, 'Our property will not be inherited, whatever we (i.e. prophets) leave is Sadaqa (to be used for charity)." Fatima, the daughter of Allah's Apostle got angry and stopped speaking to Abu Bakr, and continued assuming that attitude till she died. Fatima remained alive for six months after the death of Allah's Apostle
 
so @Wisdom007 is this a fake hadith? it is from bukhari.

As explained previously.

 

2 hours ago, kirtc said:

Fatimah the daughter of the Prophet sent someone to Abu Bakr (when he was a caliph), asking for her inheritance of what Allah’s Apostle had left of the property bestowed on him by Allah from the Fai (i.e. booty gained without fighting) in Medina, and Fadak, and what remained of the Khumus of the Khaibar booty. ...but Abu Bakr refused to give anything of that to Fatimah. So she became angry with Abu Bakr and kept away from him, and did not task to him till she died. She remained alive for six months after the death of the Prophet. When she died, her husband ‘‘Ali, buried her at night without informing Abu Bakr and he said the funeral prayer by himself.

Sunni References:

- Sahih al-Bukhari, Chapter of "The battle of Khaibar", Arabic-English, v5, tradition #546, pp 381-383, also v4, Tradition #325

(Please see the appendix for the whole tradition.)

Now either Fatimah was liar or Abu Bakr treated her unjustly. If she was liar, then she did not deserve such a saying from the Prophet that Fatimah is a part of me and whoever angers her, angers me. This itself is a clear indication of her infallibility. The purification sentence of the Holy Qur’an (the last sentence of verse 33:33) is another indication of her infallibility, as Aisha herself testified (See Sahih Muslim, 1980 Edition, Arabic, v4, p1883, Tradition #61). Hence there is nothing left for the sensible people but to accept the fact that she was unjustly treated, and that she was easy to be branded as a liar by Umar who was willing to let her burn unless the remaining people in her house come out to vote for Abu Bakr.

Again as explained before with the word anger, it’s easy and simple to understand.

And yet it’s the only one often repeated so called evidence with same argument as if it’s the holy grail of finds in Sunni hadith for shiah.

I/we Sunni never even think of such things on ahlubaith ra, astaghfirullah, we would never think of you as thinking of such either and when did Umar ra call Fatima ra such??? Please do provide the evidence, i have never heard or come across such saying from Umar ra ......hence alhamdulillah it’s your own opinions like I said from the start based on history books.........no anger from Fatima ra or Her husband ra written in that same Hadith book, it’s not the Quran but it’s way more authentic then history books.As for purification verse again it’s how you want to understand it and not what it is but that’s a whole different subject I ain’t interested in getting involved in (plenty of info on web on Sunni Tafseer of verse 33/33).

I am being honest and only answering the poster on his post which I believe he was using weak evidences as facts and using that to a conclusion. If that’s not sensible then I am sorry I am not sensible enough to accept unauthentic history as evidence.

 

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23 minutes ago, Wisdom007 said:

As explained previously

so the hadith is wrong... or inconsistent with the other ahadith.. 

in your own trusted book.

it is clear in ours, yet unclear in yours.. and you want to convince us? 

Edited by kirtc

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1 hour ago, kirtc said:

so the hadith is wrong... or inconsistent with the other ahadith.. 

in your own trusted book.

it is clear in ours, yet unclear in yours.. and you want to convince us? 

My trusted book is only Quran bro, as for the Hadith in question it’s been answered I didn’t say the Hadith was wrong it has issues with the exact word you use “anger”, while others don’t say the same word so you can’t really use it to come to a conclusion on what you think.

Erm......when did I ever want to convince anyone? I only had a problem with the conclusion of the poster hence I answered.

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فَمَنْ حَاجَّكَ فِيهِ مِنْ بَعْدِ مَا جَاءَكَ مِنَ الْعِلْمِ فَقُلْ تَعَالَوْا نَدْعُ أَبْنَاءَنَا وَأَبْنَاءَكُمْ وَنِسَاءَنَا وَنِسَاءَكُمْ وَأَنْفُسَنَا وَأَنْفُسَكُمْ ثُمَّ نَبْتَهِلْ فَنَجْعَلْ لَعْنَتَ اللَّهِ عَلَى الْكَاذِبِينَ {61}

[Pickthal 3:61] And whoso disputeth with thee concerning him, after the knowledge which hath come unto thee, say (unto him): Come! We will summon our sons and your sons, and our women and your women, and ourselves and yourselves, then we will pray humbly (to our Lord) and (solemnly) invoke the curse of Allah upon those who lie.

 

"Therefore, those who were present on the side of the Prophet forthe imprecation — i.e., ‘Alī, Fātimah, al-Hasan and al-Husayn — were partners in the claim of the Messenger of Allāh (s.a.w.a.) and his mission..."

http://www.almizan.org/

*****

"...(The third occasion is this) when the (following) verse was revealed: "Let us summon our children and your children." Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) called 'Ali, Fatima, Hasan and Husain and said: O Allah, they are my family."

Sahih Muslim

https://sunnah.com/muslim/44/50

Edited by S.M.H.A.

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10 hours ago, Wisdom007 said:

Bro shiaman 

The word ANGER is only mentioned in the Hadith transmitted from Hazrat Aisha ra. It is not mentioned in the Hadith narrated from other companions like Hazrat Abu Huraira, Hazrat Um Hani, etc.

Further the hadith narrated from Hazrat Aisha ra is of two types, one type mentions the word “anger” while the other type does not mention “anger”. The hadith which mention the word “anger” are all narrated by Ibn Shahab Zehri [well known for his idraaj of statements].

In both the hadith I quoted, the same arabic word is used. "غْضَبَهَا" and "غَضِبَتْ". English translations include "anger, outrage, ire, rage, enrage, infuriate..."

Here are some more:

Narrated `Aisha:
Fatima and Al `Abbas came to Abu Bakr, seeking their share from the property of Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) and at that time, they were asking for their land at Fadak and their share from Khaibar. Abu Bakr said to them, " I have heard from Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) saying, 'Our property cannot be inherited, and whatever we leave is to be spent in charity, but the family of Muhammad may take their provisions from this property." Abu Bakr added, "By Allah, I will not leave the procedure I saw Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) following during his lifetime concerning this property." Therefore Fatima left Abu Bakr and did not speak to him till she died.
Reference     : Sahih al-Bukhari 6725, 6726
In-book reference     : Book 85, Hadith 3
USC-MSA web (English) reference     : Vol. 8, Book 80, Hadith 718
https://sunnah.com/bukhari/85/3

Narrated `Aisha:
Fatima the daughter of the Prophet (ﷺ) sent someone to Abu Bakr (when he was a caliph), asking for her inheritance of what Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) had left of the property bestowed on him by Allah from the Fai (i.e. booty gained without fighting) in Medina, and Fadak, and what remained of the Khumus of the Khaibar booty. On that, Abu Bakr said, "Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) said, "Our property is not inherited. Whatever we leave, is Sadaqa, but the family of (the Prophet) Muhammad can eat of this property.' By Allah, I will not make any change in the state of the Sadaqa of Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) and will leave it as it was during the lifetime of Allah's Messenger (ﷺ), and will dispose of it as Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) used to do." So Abu Bakr refused to give anything of that to Fatima. So she became angry with Abu Bakr and kept away from him, and did not task to him till she died. She remained alive for six months after the death of the Prophet. When she died, her husband `Ali, buried her at night without informing Abu Bakr and he said the funeral prayer by himself. ..."
Reference     : Sahih al-Bukhari 4240, 4241
In-book reference     : Book 64, Hadith 278
USC-MSA web (English) reference     : Vol. 5, Book 59, Hadith 546
https://sunnah.com/bukhari/64/278

It is narrated on the authority of Urwa b. Zubair who narrated from A'isha that she informed him that Fatima, daughter of the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ), sent someone to Abu Bakr to demand from him her share of the legacy left by the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) from what Allah had bestowed upon him at Medina and Fadak and what was left from one-filth of the income (annually received) from Khaibar. Abu Bakr said:
The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said:" We (prophets) do not have any heirs; what we leave behind is (to be given in) charity." The household of the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) will live on the income from these properties, but, by Allah, I will not change the charity of the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) from the condition in which it was in his own time. I will do the same with it as the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upun him) himself used to do. So Abu Bakr refused to hand over anything from it to Fatima who got angry with Abu Bakr for this reason. She forsook him and did not talk to him until the end of her life. She lived for six months after the death of the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ). When she died, her husband. 'Ali b. Abu Talib, buried her at night. He did not inform Abu Bakr about her death and offered the funeral prayer over her himself.
Reference     : Sahih Muslim 1759 a
In-book reference     : Book 32, Hadith 61
USC-MSA web (English) reference     : Book 19, Hadith 4352
https://sunnah.com/muslim/32/61

 

[Shakir 42:23] That is of which Allah gives the good news to His servants, (to) those who believe and do good deeds. Say: I do not ask of you any reward for it but love for my near relatives; and whoever earns good, We give him more of good therein; surely Allah is Forgiving, Grateful.

When you are asked on the Day of Judgement why you didn't reward the Prophet (saw) for his hard work by loving his family, you are free to present the "idraaj" excuse along with the "there were other hadith" excuse.

You can try to wiggle your way out of the word "angry" being used or not, but you can't wiggle out of the fact that Fatima (as) died in a unhappy state against Abu Bakr to the point that Ali (as) buried her at night without informing Abu Bakr.

At the end of the day, you choose to side with a sahabi instead of the Prophet's (saw) NEAREST OF KIN. You will be answerable for this.

Edited by shiaman14

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55 minutes ago, shiaman14 said:

In both the hadith I quoted, the same arabic word is used. "غْضَبَهَا" and "غَضِبَتْ". English translations include "anger, outrage, ire, rage, enrage, infuriate..."

Here are some more:

Narrated `Aisha:
Fatima and Al `Abbas came to Abu Bakr, seeking their share from the property of Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) and at that time, they were asking for their land at Fadak and their share from Khaibar. Abu Bakr said to them, " I have heard from Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) saying, 'Our property cannot be inherited, and whatever we leave is to be spent in charity, but the family of Muhammad may take their provisions from this property." Abu Bakr added, "By Allah, I will not leave the procedure I saw Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) following during his lifetime concerning this property." Therefore Fatima left Abu Bakr and did not speak to him till she died.
Reference     : Sahih al-Bukhari 6725, 6726
In-book reference     : Book 85, Hadith 3
USC-MSA web (English) reference     : Vol. 8, Book 80, Hadith 718
https://sunnah.com/bukhari/85/3

Narrated `Aisha:
Fatima the daughter of the Prophet (ﷺ) sent someone to Abu Bakr (when he was a caliph), asking for her inheritance of what Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) had left of the property bestowed on him by Allah from the Fai (i.e. booty gained without fighting) in Medina, and Fadak, and what remained of the Khumus of the Khaibar booty. On that, Abu Bakr said, "Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) said, "Our property is not inherited. Whatever we leave, is Sadaqa, but the family of (the Prophet) Muhammad can eat of this property.' By Allah, I will not make any change in the state of the Sadaqa of Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) and will leave it as it was during the lifetime of Allah's Messenger (ﷺ), and will dispose of it as Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) used to do." So Abu Bakr refused to give anything of that to Fatima. So she became angry with Abu Bakr and kept away from him, and did not task to him till she died. She remained alive for six months after the death of the Prophet. When she died, her husband `Ali, buried her at night without informing Abu Bakr and he said the funeral prayer by himself. ..."
Reference     : Sahih al-Bukhari 4240, 4241
In-book reference     : Book 64, Hadith 278
USC-MSA web (English) reference     : Vol. 5, Book 59, Hadith 546
https://sunnah.com/bukhari/64/278

It is narrated on the authority of Urwa b. Zubair who narrated from A'isha that she informed him that Fatima, daughter of the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ), sent someone to Abu Bakr to demand from him her share of the legacy left by the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) from what Allah had bestowed upon him at Medina and Fadak and what was left from one-filth of the income (annually received) from Khaibar. Abu Bakr said:
The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said:" We (prophets) do not have any heirs; what we leave behind is (to be given in) charity." The household of the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) will live on the income from these properties, but, by Allah, I will not change the charity of the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) from the condition in which it was in his own time. I will do the same with it as the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upun him) himself used to do. So Abu Bakr refused to hand over anything from it to Fatima who got angry with Abu Bakr for this reason. She forsook him and did not talk to him until the end of her life. She lived for six months after the death of the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ). When she died, her husband. 'Ali b. Abu Talib, buried her at night. He did not inform Abu Bakr about her death and offered the funeral prayer over her himself.
Reference     : Sahih Muslim 1759 a
In-book reference     : Book 32, Hadith 61
USC-MSA web (English) reference     : Book 19, Hadith 4352
https://sunnah.com/muslim/32/61

 

[Shakir 42:23] That is of which Allah gives the good news to His servants, (to) those who believe and do good deeds. Say: I do not ask of you any reward for it but love for my near relatives; and whoever earns good, We give him more of good therein; surely Allah is Forgiving, Grateful.

When you are asked on the Day of Judgement why you didn't reward the Prophet (saw) for his hard work by loving his family, you are free to present the "idraaj" excuse along with the "there were other hadith" excuse.

You can try to wiggle your way out of the word "angry" being used or not, but you can't wiggle out of the fact that Fatima (as) died in a unhappy state against Abu Bakr to the point that Ali (as) buried her at night without informing Abu Bakr.

At the end of the day, you choose to side with a sahabi instead of the Prophet's (saw) NEAREST OF KIN. You will be answerable for this.

Anger added by some other persons that’s the only thing and nothing else. The rest like I said the Imam ra Her husband, was happy and gave Bayat to the khaliph as the Hadith goes on. 

So......the wife was angry and died in that state, yet husband forgot the anger and acknowledged him as leader? 

Sorry but I don’t know who prophet saw’s family is right now to be honest majority of the Muslim population 99% don’t either so that question I really don’t think will be asked at all, it doesn’t even make sense to be even asked that. If I knew a member of Nabi saw’s family obviously I would love and respect them as per quranic instruction.

wiggle what? I ain’t the one using weak arguments that’s you, I gave the reason of why the Hadith can’t be used as evidence  coz we have others without the word anger but looks like it’s the only evidence you can rely on. As for burying at night prophet saw was buried at night many sahabas ra as well as Ayesha ra infact women were buried at night, read the full Hadith of Sahih Muslim 1759 you posted it will tell the full story till Ali ra gives Bayat willingly, it’s nothing hidden or secret, that maybe your own paranoia but it ain’t no evidence or cover up.

Again that’s your opinion and an opinion that has no value or any factual evidence to back it up, I side with Quran and sunna where as you are propping up a side that has no solid proof of enmity between the khaliph ra and Fatima ra.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Wisdom007 said:

My trusted book is only Quran bro, as for the Hadith in question it’s been answered I didn’t say the Hadith was wrong it has issues with the exact word you use “anger”, while others don’t say the same word so you can’t really use it to come to a conclusion on what you think.

Erm......when did I ever want to convince anyone? I only had a problem with the conclusion of the poster hence I answered.

what other word can fit in this context.. you are trying to prove you are right with an illogical excuse.. abu bakr took the land away from her so she was "pleased" with abu bakr until she died? if the word angry wasnt there the rest of the words are there.. so what is the meaning of the whole hadith?

someone told me not to bother but I usually do when i see some sort of intelligence.. but now im not too sure

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55 minutes ago, Wisdom007 said:

Anger added by some other persons that’s the only thing and nothing else. The rest like I said the Imam ra Her husband, was happy and gave Bayat to the khaliph as the Hadith goes on.

So are you saying the hadith in SAHIH Bukhari is not authentic? So as it turns out, Bukhari is not SAHIH after all.

56 minutes ago, Wisdom007 said:

So......the wife was angry and died in that state, yet husband forgot the anger and acknowledged him as leader?

well worth a discussing but still doesn't change the fact that Fatima died "unhappy" with Abu Bakr which is the point of discussing here.

57 minutes ago, Wisdom007 said:

Sorry but I don’t know who prophet saw’s family is right now to be honest majority of the Muslim population 99% don’t either so that question I really don’t think will be asked at all, it doesn’t even make sense to be even asked that. If I knew a member of Nabi saw’s family obviously I would love and respect them as per quranic instruction.

So Fatima (as) is not the Prophet's daughter any more? This just keeps getting better and better.

Yo do know that Fatima (as) is the Prophet's daughter. You do know that the Quran orders us to love her and here you are defending the person she died "unhappy" with.

This is sheer hypocrisy in the Sunni world. You wear short pants, grow long beards and chew miswak all over the world thinking you are following the seerah of the Prophet (saw) when his real seerah is loving his AhlulBayt.

58 minutes ago, Wisdom007 said:

wiggle what? I ain’t the one using weak arguments that’s you, I gave the reason of why the Hadith can’t be used as evidence  coz we have others without the word anger but looks like it’s the only evidence you can rely on. As for burying at night prophet saw was buried at night many sahabas ra as well as Ayesha ra infact women were buried at night, read the full Hadith of Sahih Muslim 1759 you posted it will tell the full story till Ali ra gives Bayat willingly, it’s nothing hidden or secret, that maybe your own paranoia but it ain’t no evidence or cover up.

Regardless of the word used, did Fatima (as) speak to Abu Bakr ever again until her death?  Yes others have been buried at night but the narrator chose to include, " Abu Bakr about her death and offered the funeral prayer over her himself. " Clearly this was added as pertinent information.

1 hour ago, Wisdom007 said:

Again that’s your opinion and an opinion that has no value or any factual evidence to back it up, I side with Quran and sunna where as you are propping up a side that has no solid proof of enmity between the khaliph ra and Fatima ra.

Since word play is so important to you, you should always side with Quran and AhlulBayt.

"Quran and Sunnah" is a myth that was created later.

But if you did follow Quran and Sunnah, then Quran tells you to love the family of the Prophet and the Sunnah of the Prophet is to love his family.

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10 minutes ago, kirtc said:

what other word can fit in this context.. you are trying to prove you are right with an illogical excuse.. abu bakr took the land away from her so she was "pleased" with abu bakr until she died? if the word angry wasnt there the rest of the words are there.. so what is the meaning of the whole hadith?

someone told me not to bother but I usually do when i see some sort of intelligence.. but now im not too sure

Excuse? I ain’t looking for no proof of enmity between people, that’s your excuse no matter how illogical it sounds to you, you will believe it as can be seen by your posts even after being told that you can’t base conclusions on weak evidences.

That someone was spot on you shouldn’t have bothered, you arguments ain’t exactly intelligent either.

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16 minutes ago, Wisdom007 said:

Excuse? I ain’t looking for no proof of enmity between people, that’s your excuse no matter how illogical it sounds to you, you will believe it as can be seen by your posts even after being told that you can’t base conclusions on weak evidences.

That someone was spot on you shouldn’t have bothered, you arguments ain’t exactly intelligent either.

you escaped the question..  I asked what other word would fit in the hadith and what meaning would the hadith have.

even without the word angry, you can tell there was a dispute between the two. who was abu bakr to deny Fatima azahra a.s?

you cant escape the fact that there was a dispute over fadaq. 

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Just now, shiaman14 said:

So are you saying the hadith in SAHIH Bukhari is not authentic? So as it turns out, Bukhari is not SAHIH after all.

well worth a discussing but still doesn't change the fact that Fatima died "unhappy" with Abu Bakr which is the point of discussing here.

So Fatima (as) is not the Prophet's daughter any more? This just keeps getting better and better.

Yo do know that Fatima (as) is the Prophet's daughter. You do know that the Quran orders us to love her and here you are defending the person she died "unhappy" with.

This is sheer hypocrisy in the Sunni world. You wear short pants, grow long beards and chew miswak all over the world thinking you are following the seerah of the Prophet (saw) when his real seerah is loving his AhlulBayt.

Regardless of the word used, did Fatima (as) speak to Abu Bakr ever again until her death?  Yes others have been buried at night but the narrator chose to include, " Abu Bakr about her death and offered the funeral prayer over her himself. " Clearly this was added as pertinent information.

Since word play is so important to you, you should always side with Quran and AhlulBayt.

"Quran and Sunnah" is a myth that was created later.

But if you did follow Quran and Sunnah, then Quran tells you to love the family of the Prophet and the Sunnah of the Prophet is to love his family.

Lol I have explained as to the reason why it’s of no benefit for ahlu tashayyu to use the Hadith with the word anger. If it still is hard for you to fathom that and instead go into sarcasm.....then......good luck it just shows how academic you are in your answers.

Yes she ra passed away happy hence Her husband ra gave allegiance Happily. Nothing hard to understand about that.

Brother Fatima ra has passed away....yes like I said before we do love ahlubaith ra, something that was done centuries ago  (supposed anger) has been rectified and they were happy with it should be left at that no khaliph out of the 3 were ever angry with Fatima ra, there is much more evidence and solid evidences to that fact. Your pulling on straws here.

we do love ahlubaith ra we just don’t add anything divine to them, if thats what makes you think that we don’t love them because we don’t believ they are divinely chosen then that’s your folly but it doesn’t mean Sunni hate them.

The reality is you are using weak evidences to support a theory. It doesn’t and won’t work they’re not good arguments they won’t stand the light of day I mean look at this thread.

We have other evidences She ra did rectify with Abu Bakr ra before She ra passed away. She was buried by Her husband alone so what? Then the husband came to the khaliph and apologised and gave Bayat and was happy with the leader......it’s in the same Hadith.

We do love ahlubaith ra but to use flimsy evidences of how Sunnis hate Them ra is very ingenious and shallow, even ahlubaith ra wouldn’t use such standards to argue their points.

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15 minutes ago, kirtc said:

you escaped the question..  I asked what other word would fit in the hadith and what meaning would the hadith have.

even without the word angry, you can tell there was a dispute between the two. who was abu bakr to deny Fatima azahra a.s?

you cant escape the fact that there was a dispute over fadaq. 

Dispute? 

That same land was offered back by Umar ra but ahlubaith ra never took it back.

Didn’t they think of it as a dispute? 

Even when Imam Ali ra came to power He could have very easily took it back but He ra didn’t, not much of a dispute was it.

 

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16 minutes ago, Wisdom007 said:

Dispute? 

That same land was offered back by Umar ra but ahlubaith ra never took it back.

Didn’t they think of it as a dispute? 

Even when Imam Ali ra came to power He could have very easily took it back but He ra didn’t, not much of a dispute was it.

 

The main problem was not about a piece of Land ,it was about ignoring authorit of Ahlul-Bayt  (as)& denying their right ,Ahlulbayt  (as) never care 

about gaining wealth for themselves.

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2 hours ago, Wisdom007 said:

so......the wife was angry and died in that state, yet husband forgot the anger and acknowledged him as leader? 

am sorry i have been trying to understand shia/sunni perspective of history.

 i have been trying to find answer for this specific question but no luck.

Answers either are not convincing enough or doesnt make any sense.. can some one knowledgeable answer this for me please. 

( please Note i said knowledgeable that is because i once asked a brother here in sc and he said it is because imam ali a.s gave promise to prophet Mohammed a.s that he would not kill abu bakr ra and so he dint  ( Which again left me with many more questions so i dug deeper only to realize what brother said was completely untrue)

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34 minutes ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

The main problem was not about a piece of Land ,it was about ignoring authorit of Ahlul-Bayt  (as)& denying their right ,Ahlulbayt  (as) never care 

about gaining wealth for themselves.

brother as i said i am trying to learn history , at the time of our beloved  (saws)  many denied prophet hood of our beloved prophet but he wasnt angry on anyone though people treated him badly and i strongly believe fatima zehra a.s inherited all the characteristics of our beloved prophet then why would she die angry over few handful of people ?

Edited by ephemeral

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Just now, ephemeral said:

brother i am trying to learn history , at the time of our beloved  (saws)  many denied prophet hood of our beloved prophet but he wasnt angry on anyone and i strongly believe fatima zehra a.s inherited all the characteristics of our beloved prophet then why would she die angry over few handful of people ?

Because they even didn't respect dead body of prophet  (pbu)and leave his body to gain power for themselves this was duty of Success or of prophet  (pbu) & they didon't do that & after him take everything for themselves in matters that have no authority about that such as inheritance of Prophet (pbu) by sabotage & oligarchy. 

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1 hour ago, ephemeral said:

am sorry i have been trying to understand shia/sunni perspective of history.

 i have been trying to find answer for this specific question but no luck.

Answers either are not convincing enough or doesnt make any sense.. can some one knowledgeable answer this for me please. 

( please Note i said knowledgeable that is because i once asked a brother here in sc and he said it is because imam ali a.s gave promise to prophet Mohammed a.s that he would not kill abu bakr ra and so he dint  ( Which again left me with many more questions so i dug deeper only to realize what brother said was completely untrue)

read nahjul al balagha.. 

Edited by kirtc

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14 hours ago, Wisdom007 said:

 

The word ANGER is only mentioned in the Hadith transmitted from Hazrat Aisha ra. It is not mentioned in the Hadith narrated from other companions like Hazrat Abu Huraira, Hazrat Um Hani, etc.

Further the hadith narrated from Hazrat Aisha ra is of two types, one type mentions the word “anger” while the other type does not mention “anger”. The hadith which mention the word “anger” are all narrated by Ibn Shahab Zehri [well known for his idraaj of statements].

 

so I guess your maths must be wrong especially if you are using not so solid formulas.

Wow.. You are now discrediting the book which is considered second only to Quran in the Sunni world just because you want to save someone's backside at any cost.

Quit playing with words and acknowledge the truth. This messy formula you are trying to play with is going to land the Sunnis in a lot of trouble and there is no wisdom in using such a deceitful strategy.

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54 minutes ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Because they even didn't respect dead body of prophet  (pbu)and leave his body to gain power for themselves this was duty of Successor of prophet  (pbu) & they didon't do that & after him take everything for themselves in matters that have no authority about that such as inheritance of Prophet (pbu) by sabotage & oligarchy. 

brother according to shias if this was duty of successor of prophet then wasnt it duty of imam ali a.s then why would fatima zehra a.s die angry over abu bakr ? for second part as i said even "at the time of our beloved  (saws)  many denied prophet hood of our beloved prophet but he wasnt angry on anyone and i strongly believe fatima zehra a.s inherited all the characteristics of our beloved prophet then why would she die angry over few handful of people "

 

Edited by ephemeral

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7 minutes ago, yam_110 said:

Wow.. You are now discrediting the book which is considered second only to Quran in the Sunni world just because you want to save someone's backside at any cost.

Quit playing with words and acknowledge the truth. This messy formula you are trying to play with is going to land the Sunnis in a lot of trouble and there is no wisdom in using such a deceitful strategy.

also, even if the word was misplaced... the hadith clearly states abu bakr rejected bibi fatima's a.s request which is unacceptable 

yet "wisdom" fails to see where the dispute is lol

Edited by kirtc

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8 minutes ago, kirtc said:

read nahjul al balagha.. ofcourse sunnis will say its fake.. but anyone with wisdom can see that the way it was written can only be from someone as enlightened and eloquent as Imam Ali a.s

brother i love sayings and preachings nahjul al balagha has. i dint read or have gone through everything that it has .. in sha Allah hope to do it in the future, for now could you please give me brief hadith of my answer. will highly appreciate it please.

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8 minutes ago, ephemeral said:

brother according to shias if this was duty of successor of prophet then wasnt it duty of imam ali a.s then why would fatima zehra a.s die angry over abu bakr ? for second part as i said even "at the time of our beloved  (saws)  many denied prophet hood of our beloved prophet but he wasnt angry on anyone and i strongly believe fatima zehra a.s inherited all the characteristics of our beloved prophet then why would she die angry over few handful of people "

 

It seems that you mistaken humbleness with being not angry

Even prophet (pbu) not always a happy person if religion was in danger he was angry about that than any person 

Their happiness & anger were for Allah & religion not themselves 

Prophet said who make Fatima (sa) makes me angry me .

& we know who make prophet  (pbu) make Allah angry .

 

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14 hours ago, Wisdom007 said:

1/ Not that I am aware of or any SUNNI is aware of.

2/ A big NO!

3/ fake story? Yes!

again your own conclusions based on not so solid evidence.

1. You are either lying or pretending to be ignorant of this well known fact. Speak to someone you consider to be an alim and he will tell what's written in your own books.

2. You mean Bibi Fatima (sa) didn't ask for Fadak to be returned to her? 

3. Again, you can't run from your own books. Read them properly before  jumping to incorrect conclusions.

We read in Musnaf of Imam Ibn Abi Shebah, Volume 7 page 432 Tradition 37045:

“Narrated Muhammad bin Bashir from Ubaidllah bin Umar from Zaid bin Aslam that his father Aslam said: ‘When the homage (baya) went to Abu Bakr after the Messenger of Allah, Ali and Zubair were entering into the house of Fatima to consult her and revise their issue, so when Umar came to know about that, he went to Fatima and said : ‘Oh daughter of Messenger of Allah, no one is dearest to us more than your father and no one dearest to us after your father than you, I swear by Allah, if these people gathered in your house then nothing will prevent me from giving order to burn the house and those who are inside.’

All the narrators are authentic as they are the narrators of Sahih Bukhari & Sahih Muslim. Muhammad bin Bashir: Imam Al-Dhahabi said: ‘Thabt’ (Al-Kaashif, v2 p159), Imam Ibn Hajar Asqalani said: ‘Thiqa’ (Taqrib al-Tahdib, v2 p58). Ubaidllah bin Umar: Al-Dhahabi said: ‘Thabt’ (Al-Kaashif, v1 p685), Ibn Hajar Asqalani said: ‘Thiqa Thabt’ (Taqrib al-Tahdib, v1 p637). Zaid bin Aslam: Al-Dhahabi said: ‘Hujja’ (Siar alam alnubala, v5 p316), Imam Ibn Hajar Asqalani said: ‘Thiqa’ (Taqrib al-Tahdib, v1 p326). Aslam al-Qurashi (the slave of Umar): Al-Dhahabi said: ‘Faqih, Imam’ (Siar alam alnubala, v4 p98), Ibn Hajar Asqalani said: ‘Thiqa’ (Taqrib al-Tahdib, v1 p88).

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17 minutes ago, kirtc said:

also, even if the word was misplaced... the hadith clearly states abu bakr rejected bibi fatima's a.s request which is unacceptable 

yet "wisdom" fails to see where the dispute is lol

He has to be deceitful in his words here otherwise there is no way he can defend the actions of his masters.

Never have I heard from anyone before saying that Bibi Fatima (sa) was not angry with Abu Bakr. So far people have only tried to downplay the anger but to no avail but this is the first. He even goes to the point of discrediting a hadith in Sahih Bukhari... Lol

How low can one stoop?

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9 minutes ago, ephemeral said:

brother i love sayings and preachings nahjul al balagha has. i dint read or have gone through everything that it has .. in sha Allah hope to do it in the future, for now could you please give me brief hadith of my answer. will highly appreciate it please.

Nabi musa a.s left his people for 30 days.. he left haroun a.s as his wali.. when Allah extended musa's absence to 40 days. the people left the religion and started worshipping a calf!. only 1 month after he was gone lol! people went astray. same thing happened with Jesus and peter.. after jesus a.s died paul took over and made up the trinity when infact peter was supposed to take over

back to musa, when he came back he saw his people worshipping a calf and became furious. he went to his wali haroun

 

7:150] And when Musa returned to his people, wrathful (and) in violent grief, he said: Evil is it that you have done after me; did you turn away from the bidding of your Lord?

And he threw down the tablets and seized his brother by the head, dragging him towards him. He said: Son of my mother! Surely the people reckoned me weak and had well-nigh slain me, therefore make not the enemies to rejoice over me and count me not among the unjust people.

 

 

Imam Ali's position is like of haroun's.. if he fought back at the time he would have been over powered and killed. imam ali a.s is like haroun in many ways.. there is even a hadeeth saying that he is to the prophet like haroun is to musa.

even imam ali's kids have the same name in meaning as harouns kids

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6 hours ago, Wisdom007 said:

My trusted book is only Quran bro

If you are true to your word, please prove the hadith used by Abu Bakr to deny Bibi Fatima (sa) her rights from Quran? Can you prove Abu Bakr's position on inheritance of prophets from Quran?

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2 hours ago, Wisdom007 said:

Lol I have explained as to the reason why it’s of no benefit for ahlu tashayyu to use the Hadith with the word anger. If it still is hard for you to fathom that and instead go into sarcasm.....then......good luck it just shows how academic you are in your answers.

Yes she ra passed away happy hence Her husband ra gave allegiance Happily. Nothing hard to understand about that.

Brother Fatima ra has passed away....yes like I said before we do love ahlubaith ra, something that was done centuries ago  (supposed anger) has been rectified and they were happy with it should be left at that no khaliph out of the 3 were ever angry with Fatima ra, there is much more evidence and solid evidences to that fact. Your pulling on straws here.

we do love ahlubaith ra we just don’t add anything divine to them, if thats what makes you think that we don’t love them because we don’t believ they are divinely chosen then that’s your folly but it doesn’t mean Sunni hate them.

The reality is you are using weak evidences to support a theory. It doesn’t and won’t work they’re not good arguments they won’t stand the light of day I mean look at this thread.

We have other evidences She ra did rectify with Abu Bakr ra before She ra passed away. She was buried by Her husband alone so what? Then the husband came to the khaliph and apologised and gave Bayat and was happy with the leader......it’s in the same Hadith.

We do love ahlubaith ra but to use flimsy evidences of how Sunnis hate Them ra is very ingenious and shallow, even ahlubaith ra wouldn’t use such standards to argue their points.

I tried to get academic with you but you wouldn't answer. Simple question - is the hadith correct or wrong?

We agree on one thing though - Sahih Bukhari is weak evidence.

Edited by shiaman14

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What brother Wisdom is trying to say is that just because something is in Bukhari, doesn't make it automatically authentic. In the science of Hadith, it's clear that sometimes a narrator can add statements that were not in the original narration. For example the famous narration of the Prophet (saw) wanting to jump off Mt.Hira is actually not something transmitted originally but added by another narrator and so that statement itself is regarded as disconnected from the Prophet (saw) given the person later has no connected source to a companion for that addition.

So in this example i suppose what he is saying is that the part added about Fatima (as) being angry with the first Caliph isn't something narrated by a Sahaba, but someone later on adding in that line and known for adding in certain opinions and statements about events they narrate.

However, one can clearly prove she and Ali (asws) were indeed angry, opposed, and rebuked the Caliphs to Sunnis who go down this line of arguing. 

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Sermon 200: By Allah, Mu’awiyah is not more cunning than I am….

Treason and treachery of Mu’awiyah and the fate of those guilty of treason

ومن كلام له (عليه السلام)

في معاوية

By Allah, 1 Mu’awiyah is not more cunning than I am, but he deceives and commits evil deeds. Had it not been for the reprehensibility of deceit, I would have been the most cunning of all men. But (the fact is that) every deceit is a sin and every sin is disobedience (of Allah), and every deceitful person will have a banner by which he will be recognised on the Day of Judgement. By Allah, I cannot be made forgetful by strategy, nor can I be overpowered by hardships.

وَاللهِ مَا مُعَاوِيَةُ بِأَدْهَى مِنِّي، وَلكِنَّهُ يَغْدِرُ وَيَفْجُرُ، وَلَوْلاَ كَرَاهِيَةُ الْغَدْرِ لَكُنْتُ مِنْ أَدْهَى النَّاسِ، وَلَكِنْ كُلُّ غَدْرَة فَجْرَةٌ، وَكُلُّ فَجْرَة كَفْرَةٌ، وَلِكُلِّ غَادِر لِوَاءٌ يُعْرَفُ بِهِ يَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ. وَاللهِ مَا أَسْتَغْفَلُ بالْمَكِيدَةِ، وَلاَ أُسْتَغْمَزُ بالشَّدِيدَةِ.

Alternative Sources for Sermon 200

(1) Al-Kulayni, Usul al-Kafi, II, 336, 338.

https://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-1-sermons/sermon-200-Allah-muawiyah-not-more-cunning-i-am

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16 hours ago, yam_110 said:

1. You are either lying or pretending to be ignorant of this well known fact. Speak to someone you consider to be an alim and he will tell what's written in your own books.

2. You mean Bibi Fatima (sa) didn't ask for Fadak to be returned to her? 

3. Again, you can't run from your own books. Read them properly before  jumping to incorrect conclusions.

We read in Musnaf of Imam Ibn Abi Shebah, Volume 7 page 432 Tradition 37045:

“Narrated Muhammad bin Bashir from Ubaidllah bin Umar from Zaid bin Aslam that his father Aslam said: ‘When the homage (baya) went to Abu Bakr after the Messenger of Allah, Ali and Zubair were entering into the house of Fatima to consult her and revise their issue, so when Umar came to know about that, he went to Fatima and said : ‘Oh daughter of Messenger of Allah, no one is dearest to us more than your father and no one dearest to us after your father than you, I swear by Allah, if these people gathered in your house then nothing will prevent me from giving order to burn the house and those who are inside.’

All the narrators are authentic as they are the narrators of Sahih Bukhari & Sahih Muslim. Muhammad bin Bashir: Imam Al-Dhahabi said: ‘Thabt’ (Al-Kaashif, v2 p159), Imam Ibn Hajar Asqalani said: ‘Thiqa’ (Taqrib al-Tahdib, v2 p58). Ubaidllah bin Umar: Al-Dhahabi said: ‘Thabt’ (Al-Kaashif, v1 p685), Ibn Hajar Asqalani said: ‘Thiqa Thabt’ (Taqrib al-Tahdib, v1 p637). Zaid bin Aslam: Al-Dhahabi said: ‘Hujja’ (Siar alam alnubala, v5 p316), Imam Ibn Hajar Asqalani said: ‘Thiqa’ (Taqrib al-Tahdib, v1 p326). Aslam al-Qurashi (the slave of Umar): Al-Dhahabi said: ‘Faqih, Imam’ (Siar alam alnubala, v4 p98), Ibn Hajar Asqalani said: ‘Thiqa’ (Taqrib al-Tahdib, v1 p88).

No-one can deny there is compelling evidence a threat was made. We have corroborating and multiple-independent sources, some reliable to Sunnis like this one, in addition to a strong motive, strong supporting back-ground facts, and much more. 

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1 hour ago, Intellectual Resistance said:

What brother Wisdom is trying to say is that just because something is in Bukhari, doesn't make it automatically authentic. In the science of Hadith, it's clear that sometimes a narrator can add statements that were not in the original narration. For example the famous narration of the Prophet (saw) wanting to jump off Mt.Hira is actually not something transmitted originally but added by another narrator and so that statement itself is regarded as disconnected from the Prophet (saw) given the person later has no connected source to a companion for that addition.

So in this example i suppose what he is saying is that the part added about Fatima (as) being angry with the first Caliph isn't something narrated by a Sahaba, but someone later on adding in that line and known for adding in certain opinions and statements about events they narrate.

However, one can clearly prove she and Ali (asws) were indeed angry, opposed, and rebuked the Caliphs to Sunnis who go down this line of arguing. 

All @Wisdom007 has to do then is simply confirm that Sahih Bukhari is in fact not sahih.

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18 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

It seems that you mistaken humbleness with being not angry

Even prophet (pbu) not always a happy person if religion was in danger he was angry about that than any person 

Their happiness & anger were for Allah & religion not themselves 

Prophet said who make Fatima (sa) makes me angry me .

& we know who make prophet  (pbu) make Allah angry .

 

i agree with you 100% , but brother please tell me when Quran teaches us to speak up for injustice

O you who have believed, be persistently standing firm in justice, witnesses for Allah, even if it be against yourselves or parents and relatives. Whether one is rich or poor, Allah is more worthy of both. So follow not [personal] inclination, lest you not be just. And if you distort [your testimony] or refuse [to give it], then indeed Allah is ever, with what you do, Acquainted.surah 4:135

and if religion was in danger then why did she die angry and did not speak or stood against them firmly ? 

why did ali a.s joined Abu bakr ra and umar ra if they were putting religion in danger ?

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