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In the Name of God بسم الله

Americans: The 2nd Amendment advocates gun control

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notme

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In light of the 18th school shooting in the United States this year (and it's only mid-February) I've been seeing a lot of posts on Facebook and Twitter about gun violence and gun laws in the United States. Invariably, someone will assert that the government can't regulate firearms - the Second Amendment to the Constitution forbids it. They need to familiarize themselves with the actual text of the Constitution, not the propaganda. Actually, the second amendment specifically spells out gun control. Note the words "well regulated". 

Amendment II
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

So who is the regulator? Believe it or not, those foresighted men who wrote and ratified the Bill of Rights covered that too.

Amendment X
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

So each state can regulate who can or can not join a militia, or each locality, or if We the People have another idea who should regulate, we can do that too. The point is the militia must be well regulated.

The Constitution doesn't spell out anyone's right to protect their home from burglars or to hunt deer or turkeys; to be honest, those probably fall under "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness". The Constitution guarantees your right to join a well regulated militia for the purpose of national defense. It does not guarantee the right of each individual to own and use firearms, any more than it guarantees a right to libel or blackmail with the first amendment.

https://www.archives.gov/founding-docs/bill-of-rights-transcript

Edited by notme
Title was too long
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Hello,

Sorry to re-appear but I could not help myself.

Once again an American liberal has fallen prey to fake news.  While even one school shooting is too many, the info Notme posted is false.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/no-there-havent-been-18-school-shooting-in-2018-that-number-is-flat-wrong/2018/02/15/65b6cf72-1264-11e8-8ea1-c1d91fcec3fe_story.html?utm_term=.64921f4ffecd

All the Best,

David

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13 minutes ago, David66 said:

Hello,

Sorry to re-appear but I could not help myself.

Once again an American liberal has fallen prey to fake news.  While even one school shooting is too many, the info Notme posted is false.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/no-there-havent-been-18-school-shooting-in-2018-that-number-is-flat-wrong/2018/02/15/65b6cf72-1264-11e8-8ea1-c1d91fcec3fe_story.html?utm_term=.64921f4ffecd

All the Best,

David

Alayka Hello.

sorry what brother?

@notme

Edited by Haimid
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Salam /Hi every time i visit this post I remeber the The Purge movie (film series) :grin:

New ‘Purge’ Movie Is Already Trolling Donald Trump

That hat sure looks familiar.

X
The film will be called “The First Purge,” and those three words were featured in a new poster, written in white letters on a red hat, copying the format of the “Make America Great Again” caps worn by Trump and his supporters. 
 
 
 
Edited by Ashvazdanghe
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Guns are part of American culture. They had them  decades ago and these mass shootings didn't happen. The problem is with a sick society, system, media and games. the real solution is removing the zionist cancer which has full control and  going back to ethics morals family values etc

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3 hours ago, David66 said:

Hello,

Sorry to re-appear but I could not help myself.

Once again an American liberal has fallen prey to fake news.  While even one school shooting is too many, the info Notme posted is false.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/no-there-havent-been-18-school-shooting-in-2018-that-number-is-flat-wrong/2018/02/15/65b6cf72-1264-11e8-8ea1-c1d91fcec3fe_story.html?utm_term=.64921f4ffecd

All the Best,

David

One of the readers of the Post's article had the right answer:

Quote

Whatever number it is, is the problem. The correct number of school shootings that *should* be happening in this country is ZERO.

 

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I think the problem isn't so much guns, it's culture. America is an empire today and everything from video games and sports games to entertainment and education is indoctrinating people with glorification of violence. The pledge of allegiance and respecting the flag aren't inherently bad things but the way they are taught these days is always with some association to the military and wars, honouring the fallen dead, making them heroes regardless of who it is, it is just assumed that they are fighting to keep us free regardless of who they killed, and whether the person they killed was in any way a threat to Americans. Just think about Chris Kyle and American Sniper, for example. Also, meaningless slogans like "support the troops" (even though many veterans aren't looked after once they have been used for whatever purpose they have been deployed for), military parades. The video games are filled with violence and in many cases this has a psychological impact of dehumanizing people so that in future many of these people can become drone operators and do not ask questions over who they are targeting, rather real life just becomes a game. But dehumanizing people is not just limited to droning people overseas, it can also have an impact at home, when you do not even consider the people you shoot at to be human. It is essentially a combination of fear of everyone trying to take away your freedom pushing you to own a weapon and repeated attempts at dehumanizing people through various means (the media, education, the movies) etc. We really have to address these issues, and I don't think you can fix this problem by taking guns away but leaving intact a culture that glorifies endless war, violence, militarism etc.

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Ryan Dawson :shooting

https://youtu.be/iyI9wbL0WT0

Ron Paul 

https://youtu.be/8fPUFJCUbVw

abc news :shooter stopped at Walmart & MCDonald after school masscare

https://youtu.be/_3yjCFArAxY

 

Edited by Ashvazdanghe
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8 hours ago, David66 said:

While even one school shooting is too many, the info Notme posted is false.

Hi @David66 and thanks for the correction. I actually realized later in the day that the widely reported statistic was false. The fact that I and many others found the false number perfectly feasible is alarming in itself. 

But that's not the point. 

I'm not advocating for taking away anyone's guns. Many of my family members enjoy hunting or target shooting, and keep their firearms locked in their homes in a responsible way. 

I'm merely pointing out that the second amendment does not guarantee each individual citizen a right to own a gun. It guarantees We the People a right to form a well regulated militia. I'd even go so far as to suggest that maybe it is a collective civic responsibility that some people keep and train with firearms for the purpose of national defense, should the need ever arise. However, there's nothing in the Constitution that says anyone has a right to large numbers of guns and ammo or high capacity magazines, and there's nothing that prohibits careful screening, training, and licensing (as in a skill and safety test, not just a fee) of gun owners. 

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I think the biggest problem is a lack of empathy. I wonder if there is a way to provide empathy education/training in the public education system. As enthusiastic as I am about STEM education, it's importance is nothing compared to empathy. 

Edited by notme
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8 hours ago, David66 said:

Hello,

Sorry to re-appear but I could not help myself.

Once again an American liberal has fallen prey to fake news.  While even one school shooting is too many, the info Notme posted is false.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/no-there-havent-been-18-school-shooting-in-2018-that-number-is-flat-wrong/2018/02/15/65b6cf72-1264-11e8-8ea1-c1d91fcec3fe_story.html?utm_term=.64921f4ffecd

All the Best,

David

Thanks bro. l was just going to look this info up. Correcting that Fake-18 was on the radio Friday.

:sign_welcome:Back

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7 hours ago, Mohammed-Mehdi said:

Guns are part of American culture.

NO.

Firearms are not a "culture", but a Human Right.

Without personal firearms how long will it take the US to become a Third World country?

l myself saw police in Asia shoot a man five times for not getting on a truck when told to by police.

Or in Africa where someone sends you a package, you have to open it at the post office and then pay a 'duty'. (Paid $35 for a $32 person-to-person gift, postage included.)

Or the sex-slavery of young boys and girls by party officials and police in the old East (Communist/Socialist) Bloc. East Germany was not the only place that happened.

Or the safety of minorities? There is a big difference between "Black Lives Matter" and "Nobody's Life Matters". Remember what Ben Gurion said -often repeated by Menechum Begen- "How far would the Nazis have gotten if every Jew met them at the door with a gun?"  1930's Germany did not have widespread ownership of firearms.  Muslims are now the unpopular minority. Who is next? The Native-Americans again? The Haitian "voo-dooers" (as they far right calls them)?

Do you believe in magic? Like somehow our Fast-and-Furious gov't will make everything all right? (lf you didn't understand the sick pun, look-up fast and furious.)

Never heard of a Crooked Cop? That when they put those uniforms on they become "born-gooder-than-baby-jesus"?

You get the idea, inshallah.

 

Edited by hasanhh
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11 minutes ago, hasanhh said:

NO.

Firearms are not a "culture", but a Human Right.

Without personal firearms how long will it take the US to become a Third World country?

l myself saw police in Asia shoot a man five times for not getting on a truck when told to by police.

Or in Africa where someone sends you a package, you have to open it at the post office and then pay a 'duty'. (Paid $35 for a $32 person-to-person gift, postage included.)

Or the sex-slavery of young boys and girls by party officials and police in the old East (Communist/Socialist) Bloc. East Germany was not the only place that happened.

 

Are guns not part of the culture in America? You started with a no in your previous answer but I would like to ask you (again) this way

Guns being a human right does not mean it can not or has to be part of the culture of a people.

Furthermore I am not sure about what you are saying or trying to say in a part of your comment. Do you mean/believe that such problems are examples of why people should have guns to defend themselves? Or do you think that such problems exist (earlier) in a place where a lot of people (are allowed to) have guns?

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11 minutes ago, Mohammed-Mehdi said:

Are guns not part of the culture in America? You started with a no in your previous answer but I would like to ask you (again) this way

Guns being a human right does not mean it can not or has to be part of the culture of a people.

Furthermore I am not sure about what you are saying or trying to say in a part of your comment. Do you mean/believe that such problems are examples of why people should have guns to defend themselves? Or do you think that such problems exist (earlier) in a place where a lot of people (are allowed to) have guns?

1] A semantic play.

2] l was editing my post because l hit "enter" before completing my post.

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5 hours ago, Mohamed1993 said:

I think the problem isn't so much guns, it's culture. America is an empire today and everything from video games and sports games to entertainment and education is indoctrinating people with glorification of violence. The pledge of allegiance and respecting the flag aren't inherently bad things but the way they are taught these days is always with some association to the military and wars, honouring the fallen dead, making them heroes regardless of who it is, it is just assumed that they are fighting to keep us free regardless of who they killed, and whether the person they killed was in any way a threat to Americans. Just think about Chris Kyle and American Sniper, for example. Also, meaningless slogans like "support the troops" (even though many veterans aren't looked after once they have been used for whatever purpose they have been deployed for), military parades. The video games are filled with violence and in many cases this has a psychological impact of dehumanizing people so that in future many of these people can become drone operators and do not ask questions over who they are targeting, rather real life just becomes a game. But dehumanizing people is not just limited to droning people overseas, it can also have an impact at home, when you do not even consider the people you shoot at to be human. It is essentially a combination of fear of everyone trying to take away your freedom pushing you to own a weapon and repeated attempts at dehumanizing people through various means (the media, education, the movies) etc. We really have to address these issues, and I don't think you can fix this problem by taking guns away but leaving intact a culture that glorifies endless war, violence, militarism etc.

Lesson: Love your country , be brave and ready to defend your country.
Consequence: Influenced (young) person starts killing fellow countrymen
This is not logical ofcourse.
___________________________________________________________________________

The people who control the media, the industries of video games, are the same group of people who control the banks,the financial world and politics and academia. These people are not pro american. They hate to see family values and moral society etc. They push the sickness as much as they can, they are responsible of much of your comment.

Owning weapons (as part of the culture) shouldn't be a problem as long at is a civil or good society with morals etc.
Even if you take away the legal and illegal weapons and thereby you solve this problem we are talking about, then there are still many more serious problems and symptoms.
The real source of the problem is the cancer that controls the US and much more of the world. Cancer number 1 in the world today. That is where you have to solve it

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3 minutes ago, hasanhh said:

1] A semantic play.

2] l was editing my post because l hit "enter" before completing my post.

1. I still do not know your asnwer(s) to my question(s). Just want to let you know lol

2. I do not see any difference between your comment how it is now and in my quote. 

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2 minutes ago, Mohammed-Mehdi said:

1. I still do not know your asnwer(s) to my question(s). Just want to let you know lol

2. I do not see any difference between your comment how it is now and in my quote. 

1] Because l didn't provide you with any confirmational bias.

2] I added additional reasons.

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1 hour ago, notme said:

Hi @David66 and thanks for the correction. I actually realized later in the day that the widely reported statistic was false. The fact that I and many others found the false number perfectly feasible is alarming in itself. 

But that's not the point. 

I'm not advocating for taking away anyone's guns. Many of my family members enjoy hunting or target shooting, and keep their firearms locked in their homes in a responsible way. 

I'm merely pointing out that the second amendment does not guarantee each individual citizen a right to own a gun. It guarantees We the People a right to form a well regulated militia. I'd even go so far as to suggest that maybe it is a collective civic responsibility that some people keep and train with firearms for the purpose of national defense, should the need ever arise. However, there's nothing in the Constitution that says anyone has a right to large numbers of guns and ammo or high capacity magazines, and there's nothing that prohibits careful screening, training, and licensing (as in a skill and safety test, not just a fee) of gun owners. 

You say it doesn't say anyone has the right to such in the Constitution. Is there something in the Constitution which says the opposite? Thus is there something in the C that says people do not have this right?

I am not trying to proof something here or whatever, just like to know. :)

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@hasanhh Bro I do not understand you but for me it is ok, whatever this isn't the most important thing ever or so , know what im saying bro :P
Maybe because I am too simple or my English understanding lacks too much 

Edited by Mohammed-Mehdi
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1 minute ago, Mohammed-Mehdi said:

@hasanhh Bro I do not understand you but for me it is ok, whatever xD
Maybe because I am too simple or my English understanding lacks too much 

ln super-short summation, lf you are not armed-against-the-gov't, then you can easily be a Rohingya. lf you are not armed against ethno-religious violence then you a 1930s jew.

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19 minutes ago, Mohammed-Mehdi said:

You say it doesn't say anyone has the right to such in the Constitution. Is there something in the Constitution which says the opposite? Thus is there something in the C that says people do not have this right?

Nothing in the Constitution prohibits having guns or ammunitions either. 

You could interpret Amendment 10 as allowing the states or the People any right not specifically granted to the federal government, but that interpretation seems that it would lead to anarchy. One of the strengths of The Constitution is that it has a provision for modification as needed, as times change. 

Edited by notme
Typo that totally changed the meaning
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2 minutes ago, hasanhh said:

ln super-short summation, lf you are not armed-against-the-gov't, then you can easily be a Rohingya. lf you are not armed against ethno-religious violence then you a 1930s jew.

Could you tell more or share links/books/texts/documentaries about the last sentence ? 

 

And if we say you are right about armed against the govt. But what if there is no good national unity, is the chance of a civil war, which to some is the worst possible war, greater when a lot of people have guns? And what about the severity of such a war?

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12 minutes ago, hasanhh said:

@notme "militia is also posse. Help your understanding any?

I actually thought of old west law enforcement when I wrote "well regulated militia". 

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@notme Thanks for pointing out that distinction. 

Some people are focused on numbers,

To have multiple incidents of fatalities on school campuses (I am not hung up on the number 18, but it is too many) within a few months is unacceptable. I think 99.9% of Americans agree on that part. As always, the disagreement comes when we start talking about possible solutions. Then people have the usual knee jerk reactions and go back to their respective camps. Liberals talk about gun control, Conservatives talk about law enforcement. So let's examine those two points more closely. 

1) Gun Control. Yes we need it. In fact, we already have it in some form. You can't buy an automatic weapon, rocket launcher, etc. Most states also ban high capacity magazines. You can't buy a gun if you have a felony on your record. To me, there are two loopholes that need to be closed immediately. 

A. The Gun Show loophole. As of now, you can go to a gun show and buy any type of weapons without a permit or background check. The only reason this loophole still exists, is because of the NRA Lobby, which has entirely too much power and influence over politicians. 

B. Expanded background checks. If someone has convictions for domestic violence, short of felonies, they should not be able to buy a guy. Also, if someone has made repeated violent threats toward individuals or groups, and they have some record of acting on those threats (even if it is misdemeanors), they should not be allowed to buy a gun. That would have stopped this latest one. 

2) Law Enforcement. Most of this is not a law enforcement issues. Obviously murder is currently against the law and in most of these cases, the police are there within minutes. So unless we have a 'Big Brother' type of system where everyone is being watched at every moment (which is something I think most people don't want), I don't think there is anything additional that law enforcement can do besides what they are already doing. 

I think the main issue is not either law enforcement or gun control. The main issue is that we have a group of people, and this group is getting larger, that have serious mental and / or spiritual issues that are not being addressed in any way, and these people are pushed to the margins (they fall 'between the cracks') of our society that is supposedly so caring and tolerant. They are then forgotten about. So at some point these people realize that they are outcasts and that their life is never going to improve (or they think that anyway), so some just become anonymous, some commit suicide, and some lash out at other people. When this lashing out is big and spectacular, then it gets on the news and people start talking about it. But it is never going to get better and probably will get worse (IMHO) until we realize that we live in a society which tags and marginalizes people, and then forgets about them. That is the root of the issue. When you have that issue, you have a population (not sure exactly how big this is, but it's getting bigger) of ticking bombs walking around and we're never sure when one will go off, but we know the more bombs you have, the more explosions you will have. 

Edited by Abu Hadi
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1 hour ago, notme said:

I think the biggest problem is a lack of empathy. I wonder if there is a way to provide empathy education/training in the public education system. As enthusiastic as I am about STEM education, it's importance is nothing compared to empathy. 

STEM is training for a job while humanities are raising up a child and nurturing him/her. Discipline of a child should be carried out by family or community norms or some professional in the art. I will not trust anyone from the current educational complex to nurture my children. I think they've done already enough. But there are things that decrease empathy, for example : lies. But current political correctness moral campus puts the traditional morality into trash and it is synthesizing a whole new moral system, which probably will create more sociopaths. 

In this case, a gun control wont solve the issue. They can make new ways to harm people, if harming others fills them with pleasure.

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7 minutes ago, Mohammed-Mehdi said:

Could you tell more or share links/books/texts/documentaries about the last sentence ?

You have to be joking.  l'II give you an unexpected example. Get an Yousef Ali translation of Quran(1934). Go to note number 1096 in Sura A'raf. Near the end of the note the Nazi pogroms against Jews are "the talk of the World".

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2 minutes ago, Sumerian said:

Let me ask this, how come Switzerland also has a lot of guns, but way less violence than the US - and is one of the safest countries? 

I think it's cause the culture there is different and there is regulation which makes sense. 

What do you guys think?

Culture is probably the biggest factor, but Switzerland also limits the amount of ammunition that people are allowed to keep. 

I think the glorification of fame, along with lack of empathy, are the biggest contributing factor. 

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@Abu Hadi

l am not "up" on gun-and-knife show regulations but l think you still need a background check.

As to "Expanded Background Checks" what are these to be expanded into?

Personally, buying a firearm is not like buying a shirt. These costs hundreds. So a 5 Business Day waiting period is fine. Most people don't but firearms on a whim.

50+ years ago, l couldn't buy "pistol ammunition" because l wasn't 21 yet. Like the shop owner said, it didn't make a lot of sense especially when l was already in the Army. So my Dad called a friend so l could go to his business and buy it (parental permission). Oddly, the "pistol ammunition" was for a lever action rifle.

What l think now, is it should be 21 to buy either.

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6 minutes ago, hasanhh said:

I am not "up" on gun-and-knife show regulations but l think you still need a background check.

You have to have a background check at least at some gun shows. My husband bought his handgun at a show and there was an online background check, but no waiting period. I'm ok with a couple weeks wait and limits on ammunition and magazine capacity, but I don't think additional limits will prevent mass murder. 

Edited by notme
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9 minutes ago, notme said:

You have to have a background check at least at some gun shows. My husband bought his handgun at a show and there was an online background check, but no waiting period. I'm ok with a couple weeks wait and limits on ammunition and magazine capacity, but I don't think additional limits will prevent mass murder. 

l do not have any concerns about "high capacity magazines". What l never heard of until Las Vegas was these stew-pid "bumper stocks". These are more erratic than full-auto.

You probably saw auto fire demonstrations in basic. Best marksman(Expert) fires full auto and the lowest scored Marksman fires semi-auto are 25 or 50 meter targets. Lowest always wins.  The one l liked the best was a double-side-by-side target for the full-auto and a single silhouette for the Lowest. Two hits for the Full and 19-20 for the Lowest at 25m.  A bumper stock will be worse in accuracy.

As far as a mass-murder, there was one in the 1940s somewhere in the upper Mid-West. Some old guy went into a school and knifed-to-death several grade schoolers.

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