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Arminmo

Justice between 2 wives

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5 hours ago, IbnSina said:

As I said, among the religious people, there are more women than men, this is what I can say from my experience at trying to match make people and from what I hear from others.

For example, when I was working in Singapore, my wife got to know some of the muslim women from the local shia community and many of them were good religious women but they were unmarried and close to 30. I went and talked to one of the guys I knew from their community and asked why it is like this and if they have some good matches for them, he said there are simply not that many guys here. That is just one of the cases I have seen.

So I can not say anything on behalf of the general population of the world or even the middle east, but among the ones that are religious, this is what I have observed.

There are demographic data abailable from almost every nation, so of course you can learn that there are too many men below 55. Especially in Muslim countries and China. Your wifes experience from a local shia community may be correct, but it is not representative for the entire Muslim world, (as demografic data shows.)

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20 hours ago, andres said:

There are demographic data abailable from almost every nation, so of course you can learn that there are too many men below 55. Especially in Muslim countries and China. Your wifes experience from a local shia community may be correct, but it is not representative for the entire Muslim world, (as demografic data shows.)

Your not a practicing muslim just because you live in the middle east, I hope you realize this, second of all shias are a minority among the muslims of the world.

My experience is, as I wrote in my reply not only from my local shia community where my home is. And just like not all swedes are christian because the flag is a christian cross, even the ones that define themselves as christians, the amount that actually practice their religion and take it seriously are very few and in this group they have their own demographics. Even in that group I notice the women are more religious.

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24 minutes ago, IbnSina said:

Your not a practicing muslim just because you live in the middle east, I hope you realize this, second of all shias are a minority among the muslims of the world.

My experience is, as I wrote in my reply not only from my local shia community where my home is. And just like not all swedes are christian because the flag is a christian cross, even the ones that define themselves as christians, the amount that actually practice their religion and take it seriously are very few and in this group they have their own demographics. Even in that group I notice the women are more religious.

You experience may be right, who knows. I dont. That there are more men than women despite that women live longer, this we know from official statistics

I talked to an Iranian refugee some time ago. His experience was that most Iranians were actually secular. 

Edited by andres

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Okay @IbnSina and @Rayhana80 i took this subject directly to two scholars. You may know them, Sayyid Ali Hosseini Khamenei and Grand Ayatollah Makarem Shirazis Fatwa. It took them a long time to reply however i believe this should solve this debate on the current subject. I sent them: 

"Salam Alaikum, I have a question about Nikah conditions, Can a Nikah Contract have a condition about a husband not taking a second wife? and can one include a woman right to divorce for good reason? Thank you."

Both replied similarly however i will quote the reply from Sayyid Ali Hosseini Khamenei for the purpose  of exact wording:

"Wa Alaykum Assalaam. 1- It can be a specific condition stipulated in the marriage contract. 2- The man can make the woman his representative (wakeel) to perform Talaq".

In short yes a woman can have the right to divorce if it was put into the Nikah Contract also a woman can actually include that a husband not have the ability to take a second wife. As the conditions in the nikah contract are binding they are legal. This is supported by two leading shia scholars.

I REST MY CASE!

*Drops Mic

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On 2/18/2018 at 1:40 PM, shouzan said:

Okay @IbnSina and @Rayhana80 i took this subject directly to two scholars. You may know them, Sayyid Ali Hosseini Khamenei and Grand Ayatollah Makarem Shirazis Fatwa. It took them a long time to reply however i believe this should solve this debate on the current subject. I sent them: 

"Salam Alaikum, I have a question about Nikah conditions, Can a Nikah Contract have a condition about a husband not taking a second wife? and can one include a woman right to divorce for good reason? Thank you."

Both replied similarly however i will quote the reply from Sayyid Ali Hosseini Khamenei for the purpose  of exact wording:

"Wa Alaykum Assalaam. 1- It can be a specific condition stipulated in the marriage contract. 2- The man can make the woman his representative (wakeel) to perform Talaq".

In short yes a woman can have the right to divorce if it was put into the Nikah Contract also a woman can actually include that a husband not have the ability to take a second wife. As the conditions in the nikah contract are binding they are legal. This is supported by two leading shia scholars.

I REST MY CASE!

*Drops Mic

I dont really see how this had anything to do with what you said previously about the ayahs of the holy Quran.

I already knew what you said as well.

A women can make it a condition upon entering nikah with her future husband that if he gets another wife then she has the right to divorce him. This does not mean she can make it HARAM for him to get a second wife because Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى made it halal.

Either way, i do not think its a good idea to get a second wife if the first wife is opposed to it, nothing good is going to come out of that but as I said, are the reasons she is against it islamically motivated or not, are the reasons the man wants a second wife islamically or not.

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On 2/18/2018 at 1:45 PM, IbnSina said:

I dont really see how this had anything to do with what you said previously about the ayahs of the holy Quran.

I already knew what you said as well.

A women can make it a condition upon entering nikah with her future husband that if he gets another wife then she has the right to divorce him. This does not mean she can make it HARAM for him to get a second wife because Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى made it halal.

Either way, i do not think its a good idea to get a second wife if the first wife is opposed to it, nothing good is going to come out of that but as I said, are the reasons she is against it islamically motivated or not, are the reasons the man wants a second wife islamically or not.

lol sorry i messaged them regarding two different subjects in the forum and i posted it and linked it to whomever was active in the post.  and I appreciate you respecting a first wives opinion when it comes to taking a second wife. Some men believe it is their right and their wives feelings have nothing do with it. 

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On 2/18/2018 at 1:54 PM, shouzan said:

lol sorry i messaged them regarding two different subjects in the forum and i posted it and linked it to whomever was active in the post.  and I appreciate you respecting a first wives opinion when it comes to taking a second wife. Some men believe it is their right and their wives feelings have nothing do with it. 

Can you please let me know the website or email address where we can post questions directly to the mujtahid? I asked them questions but never got any reply. 

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On 2/18/2018 at 1:56 PM, Rayhana80 said:

Can you please let me know the website or email address where we can post questions directly to the mujtahid? I asked them questions but never got any reply. 

You can WhatsApp Grand ayatollah makarem shirazis fatwa at +98 937 300 6220

and twitter to message Sayyid Ali Hosseini Khamenei @khamenei_ir He also has an  email  so you can email your questions directly contact@leader.ir

I hope that helps.

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Just now, shouzan said:

lol sorry i messaged them regarding two different subjects in the forum and i posted it and linked it to whomever was active in the post.  and I appreciate you respecting a first wives opinion when it comes to taking a second wife. Some men believe it is their right and their wives feelings have nothing do with it. 

Yes of course it matters but it is still the right of a man if he wants, either way in islam there is always what we can do and what we should do. Men have more rights but more rights means more responsibility and more responsibility means more accountability. 

Anyways, I dont think women should say no to polygamy per default always, its important our decisions are islamically motivated whether we are on the male side or the female side and what makes you personally happy (or what you think will make you happy) is not always what makes Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى happy with you.

May Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى helps us make the right choices in life and keep our ego far away from our decision making whatever gender we are.

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On 2/18/2018 at 1:54 PM, shouzan said:

lol sorry i messaged them regarding two different subjects in the forum and i posted it and linked it to whomever was active in the post.  and I appreciate you respecting a first wives opinion when it comes to taking a second wife. Some men believe it is their right and their wives feelings have nothing do with it. 

So true.. I second that.. I have been going through the similar situation.. where first of all my husband secretly married someone without my knowledge for years and when I found out, he is not even ashamed and says it’s his right and he can afford it. His other wife knows about it from the beginning and he would talk about me behind my back to her and whenever we fight he would go and narrate the whole story to her to get her sympathy. I can’t even imagine how can a woman destroys someone else’s house like that. Now, my debate is if he wanted to have more wives he should have informed me at least, shouldn’t have assumed that I wouldn’t have a problem with it. He expects me to tolerate it and when I ask for divorce he says he will never do that. 

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5 hours ago, IbnSina said:

Yes of course it matters but it is still the right of a man if he wants, either way in islam there is always what we can do and what we should do. Men have more rights but more rights means more responsibility and more responsibility means more accountability. 

Anyways, I dont think women should say no to polygamy per default always, its important our decisions are islamically motivated whether we are on the male side or the female side and what makes you personally happy (or what you think will make you happy) is not always what makes Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى happy with you.

May Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى helps us make the right choices in life and keep our ego far away from our decision making whatever gender we are.

I partially agree to what you said.. If a husband wants to take second wife or more, there should be some rules or checklist he has to follow: 

1. Don’t just assume that your wife wouldn’t have a problem. 

2. Stay upfront and open about it rather than being secretive and hiding it from your wife.

3. Consider your wife a human being and not a commodity, give them some respect and right to make decision whether she wants to stay or not. 

4. Do not share one wife’s personal and private story with another wife just to make her happy. That’s another reason they want more wives so they can vent it out. How absurd!

and so on, unfortunately men think it’s their right so they do not need wife’s permision and they can be just and fair with them. If being just and fair wouldn’t have been a big deal then why in Quran it says that you can’t do justice and Allah knows the best how mean and selfish men are. 

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21 hours ago, Rayhana80 said:

I partially agree to what you said.. If a husband wants to take second wife or more, there should be some rules or checklist he has to follow: 

1. Don’t just assume that your wife wouldn’t have a problem. 

2. Stay upfront and open about it rather than being secretive and hiding it from your wife.

3. Consider your wife a human being and not a commodity, give them some respect and right to make decision whether she wants to stay or not. 

4. Do not share one wife’s personal and private story with another wife just to make her happy. That’s another reason they want more wives so they can vent it out. How absurd!

and so on, unfortunately men think it’s their right so they do not need wife’s permision and they can be just and fair with them. If being just and fair wouldn’t have been a big deal then why in Quran it says that you can’t do justice and Allah knows the best how mean and selfish men are. 

I want to say this just to make it very simple for everyone- 

IF someone makes effort to hide something they KNOW it is wrong. He hid the second wife for years because he knew he was doing the incorrect thing and mistreating you by doing so. Men can be rather selfish and even though he might not want you he won't divorce you simple because he doesn't want anyone else to have you. Go ASAP to sheik or scholar and explain the situation and ask him for a divorce.  that woman is a snake tbh and they both deserve to make each other miserable.

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What is meant by ‘justice’ with respect to polygamy?

Posted by: amin edrisi  June 30, 2014in EthicsRights in IslamComments Offon What is meant by ‘justice’ with respect to polygamy?218 بازدید 

In verse 3 of SuratulNisa, we read:

فَإِنْ خِفْتُمْ أَلاَّ تَعْدِلُوا فَوَاحِدَةً

“…but if you fear that you will not do justice (between them), then (marry) only one.”

Similarly, in verse 129 of this same chapter, we read:

وَ لَنْ تَسْتَطِيعُوا أَنْ تَعْدِلُوا بَيْنَ النِّسَاءِ وَ لَوْ حَرَصْـتُمْ

“And you have it not in your power to do justice between wives, even though you may wish (it).”

The question that arises here is: What is meant by ‘justice’ with respect to multiple wives? Is this ‘justice’ associated with issues of life like sleeping together, gifting items and things, and providing ease and comfort, or is it associated with respect to the heart and human sentiments too?

Without any doubt justice, with respect to affections and sentiments of the heart, is something that is beyond the control of man. Who possesses the ability to exercise total control over his affection – a state, which is governed by factors external to himself? It is for this reason that Allah has not considered the observance of this kind of justice to be obligatory and in verse 129 of this chapter says:

وَ لَنْ تَسْتَطِيعُوا أَنْ تَعْدِلُوا بَيْنَ النِّسَاءِ وَ لَوْ حَرَصْتُمْ

“And you have it not in your power to do justice between wives, (with respect to sentimental inclinations) even though you may wish (it).”

Thus, till such time that the internal sentiments do not result in granting preference to some of the spouses over the others in actions, it is not prohibited. What is obligatory upon a man is to maintain justice amongst the spouses with respect to issues that are practical and external in dimension.

From the above explanation it becomes plain that those, who have sought to correlate the above verse:

فَإِنْ خِفْتُمْ أَلاَّ تَعْدِلُوا فَوَاحِدَةً

with verse number 129:

وَ لَنْ تَسْتَطِيعُوا أَنْ تَعْدِلُوا بَيْنَ النِّسِاءِ وَ لَوْ حَرَصْتُمْ

and thus conclude that polygamy is totally forbidden in Islam, have made a grave error. – They have argued that the first verse places the condition of ‘justice’, while the second verse considers this justice to be an impossible task for the men.,

As has been referred to previously, the kind of justice, whose observance is beyond the ability of man, is that which is associated with the internal sentiments, and this is not one of the requirements for polygamy; the condition for polygamy is the justice which is associated with acts and deeds.

Testifying to this aspect is the latter part of the verse 129 of this same chapter, which says:

فَلا تَمِيلُوا كُلَّ الْمَيْلِ فَتَذَرُوها كَالْمُعَلَّقَةِ

“Now that you cannot observe justice with respect to your sentiments between your spouses, at least do not direct all your sentimental inclinations towards one, leaving the other in suspense.”

Consequently, people who have taken one part of this verse and abandoned the other part, have erred in the issue of polygamy and it is a cause for astonishment for every researcher.

Incidentally, according to Islamic traditions, it appears that the first person to raise this objection was Ibn Abi al-‘Auja – one of the materialists and a contemporary of Imam as-sadiq (a.s) – who argued over it with Hisham b. Hakam, the diligent Islamic scholar. Not finding the answer to it, Hisham started out from his city, Kufah, towards Madinah and approached Imam as-sadiq (a.s).

The Imam (a.s) was greatly astonished to see him in Madinah at a time when it was not the season for Hajj and ‘Umrah. Hisham presented his question, whereupon the Imam (a.s) said: “The justice intended in verse 3 of Suratul Nisa is the justice associated with the maintenance of the spouses (and observation of their rights, and the manner of conduct and behaviour) whereas the justice in verse 129, which has been regarded as an impossible task, is the justice associated with internal sentiments (thus, polygamy, with adherence to the Islamic conditions, is neither prohibited nor impossible).”

After returning from his journey, when Hisham presented Ibn Abi al-‘Auja with the answer he swore that it was not Hisham’s answer but somebody else’s.

It is quite evident that if we are interpreting the term ‘justice’ differently in the two verses it is because of the clear context that is present in both the verses. The verse under discussion clearly states: Do not direct all your inclinations towards one spouse, and has thus permitted the selection of two spouses, but on the condition that, despite the difference in internal inclinations, no injustice should be done to the other with respect to actions and deeds. Besides, the initial portion of verse 3 of this same chapter expressly permits polygamy.

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21 hours ago, shouzan said:

I want to say this just to make it very simple for everyone- 

IF someone makes effort to hide something they KNOW it is wrong. He hid the second wife for years because he knew he was doing the incorrect thing and mistreating you by doing so. Men can be rather selfish and even though he might not want you he won't divorce you simple because he doesn't want anyone else to have you. Go ASAP to sheik or scholar and explain the situation and ask him for a divorce.  that woman is a snake tbh and they both deserve to make each other miserable.

I dont think you should advise divorce so easily, its not something small to divorce.

As far as I understood, he still loves her a lot and is in general nice to her in treatment. I do not think he should have married secretly but I also dont know if that is reason enough, Islamically speaking, to initiate a divorce.

Every situation in life has its pros and cons and you will always deal with people that are givers and people that are takers to different degrees. In this situation the husband has, to my opinion, not acted like he should, not with the best akhlaq by doing it secretly, but is it enough to divorce him?

Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى is the recorder, the one who hears and the one who sees, if your get into a situation like this, that is not what you had in mind and not the ideal you wanted, but you value Islam more, then how will you be compensated on the day of judgement for this?

Anyways, it a tricky situation and I hope everything will ultimately lead the OP to a position were she becomes the best muslim she can possibly be, because that is all that matters in life when all is said and done.

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