Divorce grounds

[lola20]

4 minutes ago, starlight said:

I cannot access the actual article due to some reason but lots of researches conducted by the westerns regarding Islamic and social issues are skewed so I wouldn't believe on it too much. 

I'm sorry @starlight but no 

Many Muslims and Arabs cry "western feminism" as an excuse to ward off any legitimate criticism of the sexism rampant in our culture, and it needs to stop. 

There is actual evidence in the study above, which was conducted on a sample of Syrian women, and the researcher themselves is an Arab I believe. 

[Guest]

@lola20 Here is another study : 

Older adults in open relationships reported being happier, healthier, and more sexually active than the general population of similar age and relationship status^[1].

One stereotype of open relationships is that such arrangements primarily benefit men. However, virtually all of the differences in health, happiness, sexual behavior, and HIV testing between the CNM and GSS samples remained intact when researchers compared men and women separately. If anything, some of the "benefits" of open relationships were more pronounced among women.

See,these studies are not something which we should rely on too much. We  have Islam to follow Alhumdollilah. 

[lola20]

1 minute ago, starlight said:

@lola20 Here is another study : 

Older adults in open relationships reported being happier, healthier, and more sexually active than the general population of similar age and relationship status^[1].

One stereotype of open relationships is that such arrangements primarily benefit men. However, virtually all of the differences in health, happiness, sexual behavior, and HIV testing between the CNM and GSS samples remained intact when researchers compared men and women separately. If anything, some of the "benefits" of open relationships were more pronounced among women.

See,these studies are not something which we should rely on too much. We  have Islam to follow Alhumdollilah. 

Was the study you are quoting for people in open relationships where both parties have multiple partners, or just the guy?

[Guest]

1 minute ago, lola20 said:

Was the study you are quoting for people in open relationships where both parties have multiple partners, or just the guy?

Both. I highlighted the part where they say that having multiple partners benefits women more,according to the study. 

[lola20]

4 minutes ago, starlight said:

Both. I highlighted the part where they say that having multiple partners benefits women more,according to the study. 

Then it's a completely different scenario than the one we are discussing.

[Karbalai110]

4 hours ago, ephemeral said:

Brother. I clearly said I am stating that which is in Quran and sharia. PERIOD.

 Brother though you and I agree on this, through our common sense and logical reasoning, not every body think alike us . sadly there is no hadith or qur’anic verses that is making it obligatory for a man to mention about second marriage well in advance before marriage.

Also,to contradict your statement  let me tell you something even if a man assures his wife before marriage that he wouldn’t take second wife and after marriage lets say after 2 years , 5 years, or 20 years of marriage he changes his mind ,though a real man would never go back on his words unfortunately not many men are like this.. because wife did not stipulate it in her marriage contract . he can marry an other woman with or with out first wife’s consent. ( this is also main reason why I want to spread awareness of this clause in marriage contract ).

Polygamy is a tremendous trial for a woman. It could be quite devastating

Brother i so want you to prove me wrong but can i end the argument by saying this, that one of the condition for polygamous marriage which is just according to sharia law  is :

if a man has fallen in love with other women. The only way to prevent such men from adultery is the second marriage . 

also an other just condition for polygamous marraige is that if a man is able to provide , support and look after an other woman and can be just with two wives then he can have a second marriage with or with out first wife's consent..

now tell me are these genuine ? is islam just with women ? if they are not then why do we have it ? and if they are just then why are we even having these debates ? 

brother honestly my whole individual perception on these matters is different ,i cant help but i see my imaan going down when i think of such laws myself ( Allah knows best .. he is all knower .. how can my knowledge and perception be better than his ( Astagfirulla) .. i surely cant see things how Allah does  .. and hence i can not give my individual opinion to sister here as i believe that is not what she is asking , she needs answers from Quran and law wise. 

My respected brother

As you personally mean to say that you want to disagree with it but you afraid to do so as it may go against Allah and sharia right so lets just talk as per sharia here and also do think for one moment that what if things have come to us incorrectly from so called 'ulemas'. Anyway coming to our concern.

As I have informed you in the above link leading towards the page to the ayat that it says that this ayat was revealed after the battle of badr when many muslim men were shaheed hence orphange increased and women became widow. It was then revealed in order for women and orphans to gain shelter by men in a halal way and therefore muslim men were allowed to marry more than once. This is an absolutely justified reason and I am sure no true believing muslim women would disallow it as because it is purely for the cause of 'ummah' and deen.

Moreover I am attaching you the 'Nikah Paper' in english translation  please do read the clause 21 in which it is being asked 'whether the bridegroom has any existing wife, and if so, whether he has secured the permission of Arbitration Council under the Muslim Family Ordinance, 1961 to Contract after first marriage'.

So my dear brother after reading the Nikah Paper itself you will know that there are definitely permissions coming into picture because of a simple fact that if a man is allowed for multiple marriages then definitely there will be certain criteria as per the sharia and hence it is proved by the Nikah Paper itself.

Brother I don't know how old are you but as one grows learning Islam so as he grows there comes a time when you get answers yourself through the common understanding of how islam is but only if you have a proper teacher :-).

It's an easy and not so complicated deen.

Sorry, I am pasting the link to the page of Nikaah Paper, please read clause number 21. Can't save the two pages properly on my mobile hence providing you the link.

https://www.scribd.com/mobile/doc/223389233/Nikah-Nama-English-Translation#

[AmirAlmuminin Lover]

@lola20

You got my message wrong. Read my message again. My point was attempting to make relationship correct, to make it work. After you do your job the best way, and it still doesn't work, then you think of divorce. Not all families have same situation as you had, so suggesting divorce to the OP is wrong.

 There are families who have problems, but most of them will be solved by humbleness and patience. He/she just need to wait some time, so that the other person realizes his/her mistake. The key is that LET YOUR SPOUSE TO REALIZE HE/SHE NEEDS TO CHANGE HIS/HER BEHAVIOR. That is the key. It's two way, but you thought I'm supporting violence.

You don't know what is happening in her life. Maybe it can be solved by more effort and talking. Why do you think it's ended? You also judged me by supporting violence against women. I also had similar family experience, but I still believe affection and patience can change people.

[Guest]

Just now, lola20 said:

Then it's a completely different scenario than the one we are discussing.

I am not comparing it with polygamy. I just  quoted it to tell you how absurd some of these studies and their results can be.

[lola20]

2 minutes ago, starlight said:

I am not comparing it with polygamy. I just  quoted it to tell you how absurd some of these studies and their results can be.

You didn't even read the study I provided to make such a determination.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Karbalai110 said:

Sorry, I am pasting the link to the page of Nikaah Paper, please read clause number 21.

That's a nikahnama developed by the Sunni government,means nothing for us. It also gives women the right to divorce which doesn't apply to us so we can't go by this.

[lola20]

9 minutes ago, AmirAlmuminin Lover said:

@lola20

You got my message wrong. Read my message again. My point was attempting to make relationship correct, to make it work. After you do your job the best way, and it still doesn't work, then you think of divorce. Not all families have same situation as you had, so suggesting divorce to the OP is wrong.

 There are families who have problems, but most of them will be solved by humbleness and patience. He/she just need to wait some time, so that the other person realizes his/her mistake. The key is that LET YOUR SPOUSE TO REALIZE HE/SHE NEEDS TO CHANGE HIS/HER BEHAVIOR. That is the key. It's two way, but you thought I'm supporting violence.

You don't know what is happening in her life. Maybe it can be solved by more effort and talking. Why do you think it's ended? You also judged me by supporting violence against women. I also had similar family experience, but I still believe affection and patience can change people.

I've worked in DV and I work in a mental health clinic. Domestic abusers do not change.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, lola20 said:

You didn't even read the study I provided to make such a determination.

I told you four posts back I cannot access it for some reason. But let it go, it's cast in stone for you so nothing's going to make you change your mind.

Have a nice day.

[lola20]

Likewise.

[Karbalai110]

44 minutes ago, starlight said:

That's a nikahnama developed by the Sunni government,means nothing for us. It also gives women the right to divorce which doesn't apply to us so we can't go by this.

I don't understand from where do you or some people like you come up with such meaningless sentences, utter absurdity honestly.

Refer to below link for our shia nikaah nama and read it with an open mind, a request. It's as clear as a crystal.

Check the last paragraph on page number 14th and continue it on page 15th to understand the clauses.

SubhanALLAH our deen is easy and not vague or complicated so please don't just post anything that you like as it may mislead people and you will be held accountable for it. 

The clause states: 

The husband gives an irrevocable authorization to the wife to appoint someone as his representative ( w a k i l ) for divorcing her, after seeking approval of the resident ‘ãlim* or her father* or her brother,* in the following cases:
1. if the husband marries another woman without permission of the wife named in 

this marriage contract;
2. if the husband ill treats and or physically abuses the wife to such an extent that it becomes extremely difficult for the wife to continue the marital relationship;
3. if the husband abandons the wife and does not provide for her for more than six months continuously;
4. if the husband divorces his wife in the civil court but refuses to give her the religious divorce.
* These are various options in order to prevent emotions from clouding the decision- making process on this serious matter of life. 

http://iman-wa.org/cms/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/IMAN_Marriage_Contract.pdf

With this I am ending the debate and there is no room left for further discussion honestly.

Wasalamu alaykum to all the brothers and sisters.

Edited February 16, 2018 by Karbalai110

[Guest]

@Karbalai110 You need to understand the basic concept of Shia divorce the method of which remain the same irrespective of the nikkah document. In Shia Islam the wife always has the right to ask for divorce(khula) if she does not want to continue the marriage for any number of reasons but it always has to be given by the husband or his representative or a religious scholar if the husband is being oppressive. 

Shia Islam does not require a husband to take first wife's permission for a second marriage(unless marrying her niece) but the wife has the right to stipulate in the marriage contract that if the husband remarries she has the right to ask for divorce.

[ephemeral]

@Karbalai110

brother all i am saying is i have different personal opinion to polygamy for now and that i am in a quest to learn and see things in way that Allah swt does..

brother thanks for all the links that you are providing for our understanding. Appreciate it .

i havent opened that link as sister  @starlight  mentioned that it is sunni's marraige contract.

i have checked an other link that you have provided later on but may i please point out that it is canada state marraige contract and that in canada polygamy is illegal and practice is criminalized under section 293 and hence their marraige contract differs from the normal islamic marraige contract . 

source :http://www.torontodefencelawyers.com/blog/general-category/crime-one-spouse-canada/

looking at page 14 : As a last resort, the woman could approach (4) the mujtahid (a Shi‘a jurist) or his representative to intervene; and if he is convinced that the husband is being unjust, then he has the power to serve a notice to the husband and ask for his consent to divorce the wife. If the husband refuses, then the mujtahid can dissolve the marriage and pronounce the divorce even without the husband’s consent. In Canada, however, not all families have the extended family support to put such pressure; nor do we have a mechanism as a community (e.g., excommunication) to censure the man who is treating his wife unjustly. The only option is to approach the mujtahid; but that process, like any other judicial process, takes its own due time. In order to make things easy and fast in solving such marital problems where an abusive husband is refusing to give divorce, we encourage the couples, at the time of marriage, to add certain optional conditions to the marriage contract as seen below:

Edited February 17, 2018 by ephemeral

[Karbalai110]

41 minutes ago, starlight said:

@Karbalai110 You need to understand the basic concept of Shia divorce the method of which remain the same irrespective of the nikkah document. In Shia Islam the wife always has the right to ask for divorce(khula) if she does not want to continue the marriage for any number of reasons but it always has to be given by the husband or his representative or a religious scholar if the husband is being oppressive. 

Shia Islam does not require a husband to take first wife's permission for a second marriage(unless marrying her niece) but the wife has the right to stipulate in the marriage contract that if the husband remarries she has the right to ask for divorce.

I typed a long message to you but got connection problem and it all went away, and I just saw that ephemeral has commented so will reply to him as well.

Anyways even after giving you the proof of nikaah paper you stand still with your words then to make it brief with you, to you your understanding, to me mine's and I will not agree to the stupidity that the woman has to demand it prior marriage and that husband does not require permission.

I don't know if a female had gone through divorce situation from your very own family (May Allah forbid) but my very own sister has although the cause was different so I know what and how it really is practically done and what are the clauses.

[Karbalai110]

22 hours ago, ephemeral said:

@Karbalai110

brother all i am saying is i have different personal opinion to polygamy for now and that i am yet to learn and see things it in way that Allah swt does..

brother thank for all that links that you are providing for our understanding. Appreciate it .

i havent opened that link as sister  @starlight  mentioned that it is sunni's marraige contract.

i have checked an other link that you have provided later on but may i please point out that it is canada state marraige contract and that in canada polygamy is illegal and practice is criminalized under section 293 and hence their marraige contract differs from the normal islamic marraige contract.

source :http://www.torontodefencelawyers.com/blog/general-category/crime-one-spouse-canada/

looking at page 14 : As a last resort, the woman could approach (4) the mujtahid (a Shi‘a jurist) or his representative to intervene; and if he is convinced that the husband is being unjust, then he has the power to serve a notice to the husband and ask for his consent to divorce the wife. If the husband refuses, then the mujtahid can dissolve the marriage and pronounce the divorce even without the husband’s consent. In Canada, however, not all families have the extended family support to put such pressure; nor do we have a mechanism as a community (e.g., excommunication) to censure the man who is treating his wife unjustly. The only option is to approach the mujtahid; but that process, like any other judicial process, takes its own due time. In order to make things easy and fast in solving such marital problems where an abusive husband is refusing to give divorce, we encourage the couples, at the time of marriage, to add certain optional conditions to the marriage contract as seen below:

اهلَين Ya Habib

I understand your point but sharia remains same anywhere irrespective.

Good Luck brother in learning and when you learn something new about anything then share it with me also as I am also an student.

:-).

[Karbalai110]

21 minutes ago, ephemeral said:

@Karbalai110

brother all i am saying is i have different personal opinion to polygamy for now and that i am yet to learn and see things it in way that Allah swt does..

brother thank for all that links that you are providing for our understanding. Appreciate it .

i havent opened that link as sister  @starlight  mentioned that it is sunni's marraige contract.

i have checked an other link that you have provided later on but may i please point out that it is canada state marraige contract and that in canada polygamy is illegal and practice is criminalized under section 293 and hence their marraige contract differs from the normal islamic marraige contract.

source :http://www.torontodefencelawyers.com/blog/general-category/crime-one-spouse-canada/

looking at page 14 : As a last resort, the woman could approach (4) the mujtahid (a Shi‘a jurist) or his representative to intervene; and if he is convinced that the husband is being unjust, then he has the power to serve a notice to the husband and ask for his consent to divorce the wife. If the husband refuses, then the mujtahid can dissolve the marriage and pronounce the divorce even without the husband’s consent. In Canada, however, not all families have the extended family support to put such pressure; nor do we have a mechanism as a community (e.g., excommunication) to censure the man who is treating his wife unjustly. The only option is to approach the mujtahid; but that process, like any other judicial process, takes its own due time. In order to make things easy and fast in solving such marital problems where an abusive husband is refusing to give divorce, we encourage the couples, at the time of marriage, to add certain optional conditions to the marriage contract as seen below:

 

 

And brother one more thing if you cone across a neutral shia contract of nikaah then do share it with me because honestly if the laws of Islam requires meeting different countries criterias then our Sharia law is differing country wise which does not make sense.

[ephemeral]

@Karbalai110 i agree that sharia remains same but i doubt if Canadians would include it in a way it is meant to be in their marriage contract because of this below rule in canada and their citizens need to abide by it :

Despite being regarded as morally permissible and practiced by some religions, engaging in any form of polygamy is an indictable criminal offence punishable for an imprisonment term of not more than five years.

Source : http://www.torontodefencelawyers.com/blog/general-category/crime-one-spouse-canada/#ixzz57KXPKAbt.

in sha Allah brother . 

Edited February 17, 2018 by ephemeral

[Guest]

19 minutes ago, Karbalai110 said:

Anyways even after giving you the proof of nikaah paper you stand still with your words then to make it brief with you, to you your understanding, to me mine's and I will not agree to the stupidity that the woman has to demand it prior marriage and that husband does not require permission.

I would be careful choosing my words because what you are calling stupidity is the ruling of almost all our marjas.

1) Can a married man engage in temporary marriage with or without his wife’s permission?

2) Can a married man marry a second wife without his first wife’s permission?

Thanks!

Answer 565: Islam recognizes the permissibility of a man having four permanent and concurrent wives.  The man’s second marriage while he has a permanent wife, except in the case of marriage with the wife’s niece (her brother’s daughter, or sister’s daughter)[1], is not conditional upon consent of the first wife. But, if the wife [stipulates], as a condition of the marriage, that her husband cannot marry another woman, then, according to some jurists (Fuqahā), this condition is valid and the husband should not violate it.

The following are some opinions of our maraja concerning whether the first wife can stipulate the condition or not:

Imam Khomeini, Ayatollah Bahjat, Khamenei, Fadhil Lankarani, Makarim Shirazi and Noori Hamedani: No, this condition is not valid or binding, unless there is a condition that: “the wife has power of attorney from the husband, that if the husband remarries, she can carry out divorce”, this is valid.[2]

Ayatollahs Tabrizi, Sistani and Safi Golpayegani: Yes, this condition is valid and binding, and if after the marriage, the husband does not act upon this condition and remarries, then he has committed a sin.[3]

Ayatollah Wahid: according to obligatory precaution (Ihtīyāt Wājib), this condition is not valid and binding, unless there is a condition that: ” the wife has power of attorney from the husband, that if the husband remarries, she can carry out divorce”, this is valid.[4]

http://askislam.ir/permanent-temporary-marriage-married-man-without-permission-wife/#_edn1

[Karbalai110]

22 minutes ago, starlight said:

I would be careful choosing my words because what you are calling stupidity is the ruling of almost all our marjas.

1) Can a married man engage in temporary marriage with or without his wife’s permission?

2) Can a married man marry a second wife without his first wife’s permission?

Thanks!

Answer 565: Islam recognizes the permissibility of a man having four permanent and concurrent wives.  The man’s second marriage while he has a permanent wife, except in the case of marriage with the wife’s niece (her brother’s daughter, or sister’s daughter)[1], is not conditional upon consent of the first wife. But, if the wife [stipulates], as a condition of the marriage, that her husband cannot marry another woman, then, according to some jurists (Fuqahā), this condition is valid and the husband should not violate it.

The following are some opinions of our maraja concerning whether the first wife can stipulate the condition or not:

Imam Khomeini, Ayatollah Bahjat, Khamenei, Fadhil Lankarani, Makarim Shirazi and Noori Hamedani: No, this condition is not valid or binding, unless there is a condition that: “the wife has power of attorney from the husband, that if the husband remarries, she can carry out divorce”, this is valid.[2]

Ayatollahs Tabrizi, Sistani and Safi Golpayegani: Yes, this condition is valid and binding, and if after the marriage, the husband does not act upon this condition and remarries, then he has committed a sin.[3]

Ayatollah Wahid: according to obligatory precaution (Ihtīyāt Wājib), this condition is not valid and binding, unless there is a condition that: ” the wife has power of attorney from the husband, that if the husband remarries, she can carry out divorce”, this is valid.[4]

http://askislam.ir/permanent-temporary-marriage-married-man-without-permission-wife/#_edn1

No sorry rejecting your links on below reasons. And please keep this post on permanent marriages only as sister initially spoke about her permanent marriage.

1. Mutah and permanent marriage are two different things.

2. The comments in specific by Marjas are not clear whether they are talking about permanent marriage on temporary marriage.

Both cannot be mentioned under the same clause as both are meant for different reasons.

For your sake if you say that this is also for permanent marriage then please provide it on a stamped paper from for example sistani's office Number 1

Number 2 is, also please provide a proper documented proof as an answer for this question?

What if the girl (which mostly girls do in their goodness) forgets to mention this demand at the time of signing her permanent marriage contract?.

[Karbalai110]

41 minutes ago, starlight said:

I would be careful choosing my words because what you are calling stupidity is the ruling of almost all our marjas.

1) Can a married man engage in temporary marriage with or without his wife’s permission?

2) Can a married man marry a second wife without his first wife’s permission?

Thanks!

Answer 565: Islam recognizes the permissibility of a man having four permanent and concurrent wives.  The man’s second marriage while he has a permanent wife, except in the case of marriage with the wife’s niece (her brother’s daughter, or sister’s daughter)[1], is not conditional upon consent of the first wife. But, if the wife [stipulates], as a condition of the marriage, that her husband cannot marry another woman, then, according to some jurists (Fuqahā), this condition is valid and the husband should not violate it.

The following are some opinions of our maraja concerning whether the first wife can stipulate the condition or not:

Imam Khomeini, Ayatollah Bahjat, Khamenei, Fadhil Lankarani, Makarim Shirazi and Noori Hamedani: No, this condition is not valid or binding, unless there is a condition that: “the wife has power of attorney from the husband, that if the husband remarries, she can carry out divorce”, this is valid.[2]

Ayatollahs Tabrizi, Sistani and Safi Golpayegani: Yes, this condition is valid and binding, and if after the marriage, the husband does not act upon this condition and remarries, then he has committed a sin.[3]

Ayatollah Wahid: according to obligatory precaution (Ihtīyāt Wājib), this condition is not valid and binding, unless there is a condition that: ” the wife has power of attorney from the husband, that if the husband remarries, she can carry out divorce”, this is valid.[4]

http://askislam.ir/permanent-temporary-marriage-married-man-without-permission-wife/#_edn1

Don't take me wrong and please nevermind about my last post in terms of requiring proper documented proof as it may be difficult to get hold of.

May Allah make it better for this sister.

[Guest]

@Karbalai110 the references are given at the end of the article.  If anyone wants more details he can read in the actual books or email the office of the marja 

[shouzan]

Okay @starlight , @shiaman14 , @Hassan- , @rkazmi33 , and @Rayhana80 i took this subject directly to two scholars. You may know them, Sayyid Ali Hosseini Khamenei and Grand Ayatollah Makarem Shirazis Fatwa. It took them a long time to reply however i believe this should solve this debate on the current subject. I sent them: 

"Salam Alaikum, I have a question about Nikah conditions, Can a Nikah Contract have a condition about a husband not taking a second wife? and can one include a woman right to divorce for good reason? Thank you."

 

Both replied similarly however i will quote the reply from Sayyid Ali Hosseini Khamenei for the purpose  of exact wording:

"Wa Alaykum Assalaam. 1- It can be a specific condition stipulated in the marriage contract. 2- The man can make the woman his representative (wakeel) to perform Talaq".

In short yes a woman can have the right to divorce if it was put into the Nikah Contract also a woman can actually include that a husband not have the ability to take a second wife. As the conditions in the nikah contract are binding they are legal. This is supported by two leading shia scholars.

 

I REST MY CASE!

*Drops Mic

[Guest]

@shouzan Lol, that's something that's already been told in the thread, repeatedly.

[Hassan-]

9 minutes ago, shouzan said:

Both replied similarly however i will quote the reply from Sayyid Ali Hosseini Khamenei for the purpose  of exact wording:

"Wa Alaykum Assalaam. 1- It can be a specific condition stipulated in the marriage contract. 2- The man can make the woman his representative (wakeel) to perform Talaq".

In short yes a woman can have the right to divorce if it was put into the Nikah Contract also a woman can actually include that a husband not have the ability to take a second wife. As the conditions in the nikah contract are binding they are legal. This is supported by two leading shia scholars.

 

I REST MY CASE!

*Drops Mic

Did you even read the fatwa properly lol? "The man can make the woman his representative (wakeel) to perform Talaq." 

It's the same fatwa I posted in the previous pages, read the second sentence of the answer:

 

Quote

 

Q: Can the wife stipulate in the marriage contract that she has the power to divorce the husband if he breaks one of the conditions? If yes, than if the husband broke a condition does he not have the power to revoke the divorce or contract anymore?

A: Divorce right can not be delegated to the wife [i.e. so that she divorces herself later on her behalf]. However, the husband can give his wife the power of attorney to divorce herself on his behalf if he does not abide by one of the terms mentioned within the marriage contract.

 

Being the wakeel means the woman cannot have the right of divorce directly, she can only have the husband give her the position of wikalah for the divorce. You would still need permission from your husband to divorce him.

 

Also, no one on this thread said a women can't stipulate in the contract that her husband can't marry a second wife, a women can do that if she wills, and only if the husband agrees to it.

Edited February 18, 2018 by Hassan-

[shouzan]

2 minutes ago, Hassan- said:

Did you even read the fatwa properly lol? "The man can make the woman his representative (wakeel) to perform Talaq." 

It's the same fatwa I posted in the previous pages, read the second sentence of the answer:

 

Being the wakeel means the woman cannot have the right of divorce directly, she can only have the husband give her the position of wikalah for the divorce. You would still need permission from your husband to divorce him.

 

Also, no one on this thread said a women can't stipulate in the contract that her husband can't marry a second wife, a women can do that if she wills, and only if the husband agrees to it.

I messaged them about two different subjects in the forum, therefore i posted the same to both. Both said a woman can have the rights to divorce, not the right to ask for a divorce with husbands permission. Both were very clear in their answer. if put into the Nikah contract a woman CAN DIVORCE without a husbands permission because her husband basically signed power or attorney over to his wife to preform Talaq. So if you want to argue about what scholars have said thats fine but you have nothing to support your statement there than your clearly bias opinion and lack of religious understanding.

[Hassan-]

Just now, shouzan said:

I messaged them about two different subjects in the forum, therefore i posted the same to both. Both said a woman can have the rights to divorce, not the right to ask for a divorce with husbands permission. Both were very clear in their answer. if put into the Nikah contract a woman CAN DIVORCE without a husbands permission because her husband basically signed power or attorney over to his wife to preform Talaq. So if you want to argue about what scholars have said thats fine but you have nothing to support your statement there than your clearly bias opinion and lack of religious understanding.

What I'm saying is from the words of Imam Khamenei, not my own opinion. You are not understanding the concept of Wikalah here. You need the permission of your husband to be his representative to divorce him. As you can see in the fatwa you put, it says "The man can" meaning the only way for the women to divorce him is only if the man wants to, in which he would make you his representative. If he doesn't want you to be his representative, then you can't divorce him.

I don't know how it's so hard to understand this.

[shouzan]

@Hassan-

In Islamic law, a wakīl (وكيل), in older literature vakeel, is a deputy, delegate or agent who acts on behalf of a principal. It can refer to an attorney, a diplomat or the custodian of a mosque or religious order.

Therefore it is power of attorney.

[shouzan]

2 minutes ago, Hassan- said:

What I'm saying is from the words of Imam Khamenei, not my own opinion. You are not understanding the concept of Wikalah here. You need the permission of your husband to be his representative to divorce him. As you can see in the fatwa you put, it says "The man can" meaning the only way for the women to divorce him is only if the man wants to, in which he would make you his representative. If he doesn't want you to be his representative, then you can't divorce him.

I don't know how it's so hard to understand this.

If you bothered to read the original post you will find my clear questions to the scholars. and therefore see that i was asking  "can husband give a woman the right to divorce in the nikah contract" i am not sure where your confession came from but i am clearly speaking in regards to if it was a condition in the nikah contract than yes a woman has the right to divorce without permission of her husband.

[Hassan-]

3 minutes ago, shouzan said:

@Hassan-

In Islamic law, a wakīl (وكيل), in older literature vakeel, is a deputy, delegate or agent who acts on behalf of a principal. It can refer to an attorney, a diplomat or the custodian of a mosque or religious order.

Therefore it is power of attorney.

The women can act on his behalf ONLY WITH HIS PERMISSION. Read the fatwa you posted, please! Read here what you said: "The man can make the woman his representative (wakeel) to perform Talaq". The women can divorce him only if HE allows her to act upon his behalf.

[shouzan]

1 minute ago, Hassan- said:

The women can act on his behalf ONLY WITH HIS PERMISSION. Read the fatwa you posted, please! Read here what you said: "The man can make the woman his representative (wakeel) to perform Talaq". The women can divorce him only if HE allows her to act upon his behalf.

Please refer to my earlier post:

3 minutes ago, shouzan said:

If you bothered to read the original post you will find my clear questions to the scholars. and therefore see that i was asking  "can husband give a woman the right to divorce in the nikah contract" i am not sure where your confession came from but i am clearly speaking in regards to if it was a condition in the nikah contract than yes a woman has the right to divorce without permission of her husband.

 

[Hassan-]

1 minute ago, shouzan said:

Please refer to my earlier post:

 

No one was arguing against that, that a husband can give wikalah to his wife... We've literally been saying that since page 1, I don't know who you are trying to prove wrong. A women can't put in the contract she can divorce her husband, but her husband can give her the wikalah to act on his behalf. 

[rkazmi33]

16 minutes ago, Hassan- said:

No one was arguing against that, that a husband can give wikalah to his wife... We've literally been saying that since page 1, I don't know who you are trying to prove wrong. A women can't put in the contract she can divorce her husband, but her husband can give her the wikalah to act on his behalf. 

If she cannot get divorce without his permission, then what is the point of having such clause? This definitely means that if you are shia woman, you are stuck in an abusive marriage for life unless a scholar, who has no idea what happens in your marriage behind closed doors, decides that your husband is abusive. If your husband is a successful narcissist liar, then you can forget about your freedom. It's better to not get married at all. I was told by a scholar 2 years ago that my divorce was final. It's not my problem if he made a mistake. I won't get married again, but I will never tell anyone that my divorce is not valid.