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In the Name of God بسم الله
Rayhana80

Divorce grounds

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9 minutes ago, shouzan said:

Both replied similarly however i will quote the reply from Sayyid Ali Hosseini Khamenei for the purpose  of exact wording:

"Wa Alaykum Assalaam. 1- It can be a specific condition stipulated in the marriage contract. 2- The man can make the woman his representative (wakeel) to perform Talaq".

In short yes a woman can have the right to divorce if it was put into the Nikah Contract also a woman can actually include that a husband not have the ability to take a second wife. As the conditions in the nikah contract are binding they are legal. This is supported by two leading shia scholars.

 

I REST MY CASE!

*Drops Mic

Did you even read the fatwa properly lol? "The man can make the woman his representative (wakeel) to perform Talaq." 

It's the same fatwa I posted in the previous pages, read the second sentence of the answer:

 

Quote

 

Q: Can the wife stipulate in the marriage contract that she has the power to divorce the husband if he breaks one of the conditions? If yes, than if the husband broke a condition does he not have the power to revoke the divorce or contract anymore?

A: Divorce right can not be delegated to the wife [i.e. so that she divorces herself later on her behalf]. However, the husband can give his wife the power of attorney to divorce herself on his behalf if he does not abide by one of the terms mentioned within the marriage contract.

 

Being the wakeel means the woman cannot have the right of divorce directly, she can only have the husband give her the position of wikalah for the divorce. You would still need permission from your husband to divorce him.

 

Also, no one on this thread said a women can't stipulate in the contract that her husband can't marry a second wife, a women can do that if she wills, and only if the husband agrees to it.

Edited by Hassan-

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2 minutes ago, Hassan- said:

Did you even read the fatwa properly lol? "The man can make the woman his representative (wakeel) to perform Talaq." 

It's the same fatwa I posted in the previous pages, read the second sentence of the answer:

 

Being the wakeel means the woman cannot have the right of divorce directly, she can only have the husband give her the position of wikalah for the divorce. You would still need permission from your husband to divorce him.

 

Also, no one on this thread said a women can't stipulate in the contract that her husband can't marry a second wife, a women can do that if she wills, and only if the husband agrees to it.

I messaged them about two different subjects in the forum, therefore i posted the same to both. Both said a woman can have the rights to divorce, not the right to ask for a divorce with husbands permission. Both were very clear in their answer. if put into the Nikah contract a woman CAN DIVORCE without a husbands permission because her husband basically signed power or attorney over to his wife to preform Talaq. So if you want to argue about what scholars have said thats fine but you have nothing to support your statement there than your clearly bias opinion and lack of religious understanding.

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Just now, shouzan said:

I messaged them about two different subjects in the forum, therefore i posted the same to both. Both said a woman can have the rights to divorce, not the right to ask for a divorce with husbands permission. Both were very clear in their answer. if put into the Nikah contract a woman CAN DIVORCE without a husbands permission because her husband basically signed power or attorney over to his wife to preform Talaq. So if you want to argue about what scholars have said thats fine but you have nothing to support your statement there than your clearly bias opinion and lack of religious understanding.

What I'm saying is from the words of Imam Khamenei, not my own opinion. You are not understanding the concept of Wikalah here. You need the permission of your husband to be his representative to divorce him. As you can see in the fatwa you put, it says "The man can" meaning the only way for the women to divorce him is only if the man wants to, in which he would make you his representative. If he doesn't want you to be his representative, then you can't divorce him.

I don't know how it's so hard to understand this.

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@Hassan-

In Islamic law, a wakīl (وكيل), in older literature vakeel, is a deputy, delegate or agent who acts on behalf of a principal. It can refer to an attorney, a diplomat or the custodian of a mosque or religious order.

Therefore it is power of attorney.

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2 minutes ago, Hassan- said:

What I'm saying is from the words of Imam Khamenei, not my own opinion. You are not understanding the concept of Wikalah here. You need the permission of your husband to be his representative to divorce him. As you can see in the fatwa you put, it says "The man can" meaning the only way for the women to divorce him is only if the man wants to, in which he would make you his representative. If he doesn't want you to be his representative, then you can't divorce him.

I don't know how it's so hard to understand this.

If you bothered to read the original post you will find my clear questions to the scholars. and therefore see that i was asking  "can husband give a woman the right to divorce in the nikah contract" i am not sure where your confession came from but i am clearly speaking in regards to if it was a condition in the nikah contract than yes a woman has the right to divorce without permission of her husband.

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3 minutes ago, shouzan said:

@Hassan-

In Islamic law, a wakīl (وكيل), in older literature vakeel, is a deputy, delegate or agent who acts on behalf of a principal. It can refer to an attorney, a diplomat or the custodian of a mosque or religious order.

Therefore it is power of attorney.

The women can act on his behalf ONLY WITH HIS PERMISSION. Read the fatwa you posted, please! Read here what you said: "The man can make the woman his representative (wakeel) to perform Talaq". The women can divorce him only if HE allows her to act upon his behalf.

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1 minute ago, Hassan- said:

The women can act on his behalf ONLY WITH HIS PERMISSION. Read the fatwa you posted, please! Read here what you said: "The man can make the woman his representative (wakeel) to perform Talaq". The women can divorce him only if HE allows her to act upon his behalf.

Please refer to my earlier post:

3 minutes ago, shouzan said:

If you bothered to read the original post you will find my clear questions to the scholars. and therefore see that i was asking  "can husband give a woman the right to divorce in the nikah contract" i am not sure where your confession came from but i am clearly speaking in regards to if it was a condition in the nikah contract than yes a woman has the right to divorce without permission of her husband.

 

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1 minute ago, shouzan said:

Please refer to my earlier post:

 

No one was arguing against that, that a husband can give wikalah to his wife... We've literally been saying that since page 1, I don't know who you are trying to prove wrong. A women can't put in the contract she can divorce her husband, but her husband can give her the wikalah to act on his behalf. 

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16 minutes ago, Hassan- said:

No one was arguing against that, that a husband can give wikalah to his wife... We've literally been saying that since page 1, I don't know who you are trying to prove wrong. A women can't put in the contract she can divorce her husband, but her husband can give her the wikalah to act on his behalf. 

If she cannot get divorce without his permission, then what is the point of having such clause? This definitely means that if you are shia woman, you are stuck in an abusive marriage for life unless a scholar, who has no idea what happens in your marriage behind closed doors, decides that your husband is abusive. If your husband is a successful narcissist liar, then you can forget about your freedom. It's better to not get married at all. I was told by a scholar 2 years ago that my divorce was final. It's not my problem if he made a mistake. I won't get married again, but I will never tell anyone that my divorce is not valid. 

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   On 2018-02-13 at 1:15 PM,  shouzan said: 

To Both of you, My Nikah contract made it impossible for me to divorce unless my husband asked. Because this was a condition he put into the contract with my father and i was not aware.

The husband does not need to put such a condition in the contract because he already has that right by default, unless he does something against the shari'a that gives the wife the right to divorce him without his consent.

 

   On 2018-02-13 at 1:15 PM,  shouzan said: 

You can include a woman can file for divorce into a nikah contract .

No, you can't. Please provide a fatwa from a marja' to prove your claim. Here is a fatwa from Imam Khamenei:

  Quote

Q: Can the wife stipulate in the marriage contract that she has the power to divorce the husband if he breaks one of the conditions? If yes, than if the husband broke a condition does he not have the power to revoke the divorce or contract anymore?

A: Divorce right can not be delegated to the wife [i.e. so that she divorces herself later on her behalf]. However, the husband can give his wife the power of attorney to divorce herself on his behalf if he does not abide by one of the terms mentioned within the marriage contract.

 

Please find in BOLD you clearly state a woman can't include a husband giving her permission to divorce. furthermore you state "The husband can give his wife power of attorney to divorce herself on his behalf IF HE DOESNT NOT ABIDE by one of the terms mentioned within the marriage contract." taking that into account i can only conclude that you believe a woman can ONLY divorce her husband (If power of attorney was given via Nikah contact) if he breaks a condition in the marriage contract. This is not what the two scholars were saying. If a man gives his wife power to Talaq she can do so for whatever reason she deems as reason. Just as a man can preform Talaq for whatever reason he deems fit. ie. this condition if placed into a marriage contract than gives the power of Talaq to the wife and she holds that power to divorce as she choses.

 

 

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16 minutes ago, rkazmi33 said:

If she cannot get divorce without his permission, then what is the point of having such clause? This definitely means that if you are shia woman, you are stuck in an abusive marriage for life unless a scholar, who has no idea what happens in your marriage behind closed doors, decides that your husband is abusive. If your husband is a successful narcissist liar, then you can forget about your freedom. It's better to not get married at all. I was told by a scholar 2 years ago that my divorce was final. It's not my problem if he made a mistake. I won't get married again, but I will never tell anyone that my divorce is not valid. 

Two leading Shia Scholars stated a woman can be given power of attorney by her husband to Talaq (Divorce) in the Nikah contract it is Valid and legal no mater if you live in a western country or islamic country. Nikah contracts are legally binding!

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11 hours ago, shouzan said:

a woman can be given power of attorney by her husband to Talaq (Divorce)

So in that case she would be pronouncing her own divorce? Divorcing herself ? 

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14 hours ago, starlight said:

So in that case she would be pronouncing her own divorce? Divorcing herself ? 

She would be pronouncing divorce on behalf of her husband for herself. she would have the right to do so because she was given power or attorney by her husband in their nikah contract. by a husband agreeing to this condition in the contract he than gives the right to Talaq when she choses to, on her husbands  behalf, therefore she requires NO reason or explanation for the divorce. It would be just as if Her husband himself had done it himself.

@Rayhana80

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