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In the Name of God بسم الله

Sahaba part Two

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salaamfaheem

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2 hours ago, Doctor Tareen said:

 Prophet SAW is the highest in mankind and any warning has no affect on his status. It proves nothing against him. likewise for Sahab Kiraam RA

Replied above in the last post please.

Also by your analogy all the hypocrites are equal to the first group of believers among the companions

Do you find that hypocrites among the companions are equal in virtues to that of the true believers? 

wasalam

Edited by skyweb1987
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2 hours ago, Doctor Tareen said:

In short any warning giving to Sahaba is by no means degrading or equal to a declaration that the companion was not a high level among Sahaba.

This is my opinion and any disagreement remain academic. Regards

i agree to the extent based on the verses of Quran and relevant hadith (as detailed in thread quoted in my previous post), that Quran addresses the three groups of companions ie true believers, believers but going against the prophet sayings even in his life and the hypocrites / munafiqeen in the life and after the prophet saww..

 

wasalam

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6 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam it was at Khum that command of Allah revealed to prophet (pbu) to announce Imamate of Imam Ali (as) although at Arafat based on Sunni sources it was announced for a little group of people but at Khum it is announced for everybody.

Please refer to my answer again. Not every body was at Khum there by the announcement can not be for every one by your definition. If there was to make an announcement of a successor it would have been at Arafat in presence of EVERYONE. 

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19 hours ago, Doctor Tareen said:

 I have not come across any Ahl e Sunna who refuses to accept this status for Maula Ali RA. He is Maula of every believer as declared by Prophet SAW.

What is Ahle Sunna definition of Maula?

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22 minutes ago, Doctor Tareen said:

Please refer to my answer again. Not every body was at Khum there by the announcement can not be for every one by your definition. If there was to make an announcement of a successor it would have been at Arafat in presence of EVERYONE. 

But you have said;  Maula Ali RA. He is Maula of every believer as declared by Prophet SAW. So what are you saying now? 

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21 minutes ago, Doctor Tareen said:

Please refer to my answer again. Not every body was at Khum there by the announcement can not be for every one by your definition. If there was to make an announcement of a successor it would have been at Arafat in presence of EVERYONE. 

In Khum everyone were present because prophet (pbu) at start of Hajj but during Ararat people were busy for Hajj rituals & the Khum was the last place that all Muslims saw prophet ,which it was the last time from all regions near or Far muslims were attended in presence of him & they were free from any disturbing ritual.

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4 hours ago, skyweb1987 said:

i agree to the extent based on the verses of Quran and relevant hadith (as detailed in thread quoted in my previous post), that Quran addresses the three groups of companions ie true believers, believers but going against the prophet sayings even in his life and the hypocrites / munafiqeen in the life and after the prophet saww..

 

wasalam

My friend i have tried to show the weakness of the analysis in which it is claimed that companions are divided in 3 categories. I explained my position. My point is that the same definition can cause trouble when we see how Allah warned Prophets in Quran. Warning by no means is a declaration of degrading some one. Now i do not think there were True believers and then believers who acted against Prophets SAW and then Munafiqeen. I think we just need a simple understanding. Even a true believer is bound to do mistake, or can do sin. I believe you are true believer and likewise who ever is on this forum is a true believer. But non is sinless or without any mistakes. We do mistakes and we can do things which could be a sin. That by no means suggests someone becomes a non believer, or Murtand after that etc. Not at all but Allah has opened his doors of Tuaba and Bakhshish for us. We repent and Allah forgives us. So we remain in the category of Momineen with Eeman and do good deeds as advised in Quran and Sunnah. But regarding Sahaba, we would never say they were sinless or free of any mistakes either. They were not. BUT they were praised in Quran in many ways. Their merits in Quran are matchless. Above all they were Prophets companions. The difference between we believers and SAHABA is that we wait for Allah to pardon us while Allah already declared mecry for them. If they did mistake, Allah addressed that in Quran and then Allah forgave them. The best thing is that Allah announces the forgiveness in the QURAN. We have no guarantee if Allah is forgiving our sins or mistakes but SAHABA were so fortunate that after every moment that Allah mentions their mistake, Allah announces his forgiveness. 

So to me when i read Quran, I see Allah addressing Momineen or Sahaba, pointing out their mistakes, correcting them, guiding them to the right path and forgiving them. If you ask for an example i will quote one or a few for you to understand this better. Regards

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On 2/15/2018 at 5:10 PM, Doctor Tareen said:

1. Claiming that Prophet SAW was to make an announcement of his successor is baseless. How can any one assume what he wanted to say or about to say when he did not say anything ? Any one can assume anything. It is totally a wrong conclusion that Prophet SAW was to announce a successor. So if anyone claims that it was an announcement of a successor then i would ask for the evidence, on which basis any one makes such a claim.

The announcement was made at Ghadeer. You will argue that there were more people in Arafat but the fact of the matter is that this was the first hajj for everyone and the Prophet (saw) would not have wanted to confuse people between what is part of the arkaan of hajj and what is outside of it. If the Prophet (saw) had made the announcement at hajj, then all the sunnis would have said that Ali is our mawla for hajj, for everything else, there are sahaba.

Additionally, not all Muslims were at hajj anyway so  it really does not matter whether the announcement was made at arafat or ghadeer. Only my sunnis brothers can argue about the location of an announcement.

On 2/15/2018 at 5:10 PM, Doctor Tareen said:

2. Prophet SAW asked to write something or make some announcement which will ensure no one goes astray after he passes away. Well i wish to ask, that Prophet SAW could have just said it and any one could write it there or later. I believe that Maula Ali pak was there as well. So even if Pen or paper was not provided by any one(we assume) that should not stop Prophet SAW from making an announcement anyways. We should remind our selves that every word of Prophet’s tongue has been transmitted to us by the listeners. Even when Prophet SAW stayed quite we have that matter reported. Why he could not just have said it as people around carried excellent memories to narrate it word by word including Maula Ali Pak RA ?

It is common courtesy that when a person of high importance speaks to someone in a group of people, the person being addressed replies back and not everyone. The Prophet (saw) said, "Bring me a pen and paper so I will write something that you will not go astray." Caliph Umar responded and no one else did. That shows that he was at risk of going astray and not Imam Ali (as). Caliph Umar was who the Prophet (saw) was talking about.

Only my sunni brothers ask why did the Prophet ask and not just tell us. We don't question the Prophet (saw). He asked someone specifically for pen and paper - just bring it. Don't tell the Prophet (saw) book of Allah is enough, etc.

On 2/15/2018 at 5:10 PM, Doctor Tareen said:

3. Prophet SAW do not speak but with the order of Allah as we all believe. How come he does not make that (supposed) announcement and fulfil his duty rather he expels every from his room. Are we saying that because of some one not agreeing to provide Pen and paper, Prophet SAW gives up the idea and do not make an announcement which surely would have been an order of Allah especially if it was announcement of successor or even writing a will before death. Will it not mount to an insult to the Prophet SAW that, out of his anger he expels every one and does not fulfil his duty ? How come he gives up the idea of making Waseeah which will ensure that no one goes astray ? Why did he not expel the one who stopped provision of pen and paper but expelled everyone instead ? Does this not mean that he was upset with all of them ? We believe he would fulfil his duties and he would never let his personal emotions overcome his responsibilities. He could simply have left it all in his writing (if anyone believes he could write) or asked any one to write. I am sure companions would have understood what was written by Prophet SAW. 

The Prophet (saw) did not expel all the sahaba. He expelled the one whom he spoke to and that person refused to obey the Prophet (saw). That person and those that sided with him were expelled. The Prophet (saw) completed his duty to the fullest extent.

Prophet (saw) said take my advice
Caliph Umar said he didnt need it
Prophet (saw) said get out
Wearing a long beard and short pants is not following the seerah of the Prophet (saw). The Prophet (saw) was soft-spoken and never forced himself upon others. If Caliph Umar and those that sided with him, did not want the Prophet's (saw) advice, then so be it. Prophet (saw) gave advice, did not force it down people's throats.

On 2/15/2018 at 5:10 PM, Doctor Tareen said:

4. Saying that Prophet gave up wrinting Waseeah because he was made doubtful by the companion is an ignorance. See... Prophet SAW was called magician, Insane, Poet and Allah know what not, but he never stoped from conveying ALLAHs messages. This is totally a wrong conclusion and interpretation. Prophet will never stop from doing what is ordered by Allah. We have to accept that it was something not from Allah or Prophet SAW did not fulfil his duty then by not making a final Waseeah. Saying that he already made announcements before so it was not that important to repeat is contradicting oneself. On one side they claim that it was very important Waseeah to prevent people go astray and blame Umar RA for preventing Prophet SAW from making such Washeeah and on the other hand, when they see Prophet SAW did not make any Waseeah at the end, they put up an excuse that well it was not that important anyways even if he didn’t do it as he announced it a few times before as well. What a contradiction here. What is the point making an issue here then. We say the same that there was nothing new and Umar RA said the same that we have Quran and it enough for us. If there were announcement earlier like Khum and others, we do not need any. Does it make sense then ?

The Prophet (saw) was not doubtful. His duty was to offer advice which he did. Caliph Umar's duty was to accept advice which he did not. The people that remained did not need advice as there was no chance of them being led astray

On 2/15/2018 at 5:10 PM, Doctor Tareen said:

5. Prophet SAW lived for another 3 days after that thursday. He was able to make any such announcement or write anything.  He met many people after that who visited him. He is said to have prayed in masjid as well during that period. Did he make any announcement ? Certainly not. Did he  write any Waseeah in last 3 days after that thursday ? Fact is that there was no Waseeah even after that Thursday while Prophet SAW remained in the companions for 3 more days before his departure. 

Coincidentally, that Thursday was also the last day Caliph Umar saw the Prophet (saw). Once he was kicked out, he did not come back to see the Prophet (saw) let alone apologize for his actions thereby further proving that the note was specifically for Caliph Umar and his entourage.

On 2/15/2018 at 5:10 PM, Doctor Tareen said:

6. This proves that there was no Waseeah to be made regarding successor. It is a mere assumption with no supporting evidence. I will make a statement at the end that Prophet SAW was indeed very sick and in a state that he was not aware. Otherwise he would not have asked for pen and paper but would just say it and each and every word would have been narrated to us by the companions. If we have this narration of him wishing to say something, we surely would have had if he did say something on thursday.     There are other points about Prophets illness that i will talk about later, what it means about being confused or in a state of delirium. Being a medical professional i am in a position to explain it better. I will do it with evidences inshALLAH. Consider it an opinion and a different perspective please. Regards

Only my sunni brothers will go to any extent to absolve caliph Umar of his crimes even if it means calling the Prophet (saw) crazy or in a state of delirium.

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4 hours ago, skyweb1987 said:

Replied above in the last post please.

Also by your analogy all the hypocrites are equal to the first group of believers among the companions

Do you find that hypocrites among the companions are equal in virtues to that of the true believers? 

wasalam

No hypocrite is a hypocrite , Momin is a Momin. I do not see any intermediate category as mentioned in an early post by a brother. I stated earlier, best of Sahaba were the Muhajiroon and Alnsar, best among them were Sabiqoon al Awaloon. Let me quote an ayat for further clarification please. Let see who Allah is praising the companions and on what basis. Lets see how Allah made categories of companions.

 وَٱلسَّـٰبِقُونَ ٱلۡأَوَّلُونَ مِنَ ٱلۡمُهَـٰجِرِينَ وَٱلۡأَنصَارِ وَٱلَّذِينَ ٱتَّبَعُوهُم بِـإِحۡسَـٰنٍ۬ رَّضِىَ ٱللَّهُ عَنۡہُمۡ وَرَضُواْ عَنۡهُ وَأَعَدَّ لَهُمۡ جَنَّـٰتٍ۬ تَجۡرِى تَحۡتَهَا ٱلۡأَنۡهَـٰرُ خَـٰلِدِينَ فِيہَآ أَبَدً۬ا‌ۚ ذَٲلِكَ ٱلۡفَوۡزُ ٱلۡعَظِيمُ 

And the first to lead the way, of the Muhajirin and the Ansar, and those who followed them in goodness - Allah is well pleased with them and they are well pleased with Him, and He hath made ready for them Gardens underneath which rivers flow, wherein they will abide for ever. That is the supreme triumph.

Allah announcing bounties for Awaloon and Sabiqoon, Muhajireen and Ansar, and even Momineen who followed them. We all know who Muhajireen were. We all know who migrated along with Prophet SAW. Allah has not excluded anyone among mujhroon here from his blessings.

Regarding Munafiqeen, i will quote you a verse to clarify that Munafiqeen had nothing to do with SAHABA RA or Muhajireenn. They are identified with their charateristics and where they belong to. The very next verse says

وَمِمَّنۡ حَوۡلَكُم مِّنَ ٱلۡأَعۡرَابِ مُنَـٰفِقُونَ‌ۖ وَمِنۡ أَهۡلِ ٱلۡمَدِينَةِ‌ۖ مَرَدُواْ عَلَى ٱلنِّفَاقِ لَا تَعۡلَمُهُمۡ‌ۖ نَحۡنُ نَعۡلَمُهُمۡ‌ۚ سَنُعَذِّبُہُم مَّرَّتَيۡنِ ثُمَّ يُرَدُّونَ إِلَىٰ عَذَابٍ عَظِيمٍ۬

And among those around you of the wandering Arabs there are hypocrites, and among the townspeople of Al-Madinah (there are some who) persist in hypocrisy whom thou (O Muhammad) knowest not. We know them, and We shall chastise them twice; then they will be relegated to a painful doom

See who were the munafiqeen. They were (Minal Aaarab) arab beduins living around Madeena, then (Wa Min Alhel Madeena) among people of Madeena. No where Allah says the one among Muhajireen were people with Nifaq. They will face the severe punishment. On the other hand Muhajireen enjoy the blessings of Allah explicitly because of their sacrifice of leaving every thing behind and embracing Emaan and migrating to Madeena. There are more verses i will quote if you suggest, which would further clarify why people are misguided about who real munfiqeen were and how some people try to attribute verses about Munafiqeen of madeena to Sahaba e Kiram RA which is indeed a grave mistake and sin as it is against Quranic injunctions.

I will rather leave a question for the readers here. When Allah says That (O Muhammad) knowest not. We know them.         لَا تَعۡلَمُهُمۡ‌ۖ نَحۡنُ نَعۡلَمُهُمۡ‌ۚ     

It suggests that Allah says that Prophet SAW did not know about many hypocrites but only Allah knew them. Can i ask if Prophet SAW did not know all, how can we claim today that we know every one who was hypocrite and who was not ?  Who was really a Momin and who was not ? Who was a Sahabi in real sense and who was not ? Do we have a larger claim of knowledge of unseen than the Prophet SAW ? This is indeed separate to the topic under discussion, for academic purpose only. Regards

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Br. @Doctor Tareen,

Let me give you a simple analogy.

@Ron_Burgundy is wearing shoes with laces which are perfectly tied.

You are wearing shoes with velcro and don't know how to tie laces.

I tell you to bring me a piece of paper and a pen so I can write instructions on how to tie shoelaces.

You say you don't want my advice because you have a book on shoes which will be sufficient.

I tell you to go away.

Ron does not need to interject in this entire  conversation since he already knows how to tie laces.

It's that simple on why no one else offered pen and paper.

Edited by shiaman14
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5 hours ago, Doctor Tareen said:

See who were the munafiqeen. They were (Minal Aaarab) arab beduins living around Madeena, then (Wa Min Alhel Madeena) among people of Madeena. No where Allah says the one among Muhajireen were people with Nifaq. They will face the severe punishment. On the other hand Muhajireen enjoy the blessings of Allah explicitly because of their sacrifice of leaving every thing behind and embracing Emaan and migrating to Madeena. There are more verses i will quote if you suggest, which would further clarify why people are misguided about who real munfiqeen were and how some people try to attribute verses about Munafiqeen of madeena to Sahaba e Kiram RA which is indeed a grave mistake and sin as it is against Quranic injunctions.

Salam this is a biased resulting that all (Minal Aaarab) arab beduins were munafiq ,munafiq is living everywhere & we can't separate them by location as Bedouins are stronger Munafiqeen also they are stronger Mumins  so its not lead to whitewashing of Sahabas.

الْأَعْرَابُ أَشَدُّ كُفْرًا وَنِفَاقًا وَأَجْدَرُ أَلَّا يَعْلَمُوا حُدُودَ مَا أَنزَلَ اللَّـهُ عَلَىٰ رَسُولِهِ ۗوَاللَّـهُ عَلِيمٌ حَكِيمٌ ﴿٩٧

http://tanzil.net/#9:97

The bedouins are stronger in disbelief and hypocrisy and more likely not to know the limits of what [laws] Allah has revealed to His Messenger. And Allah is Knowing and Wise.

you neglected  the other  Surah and interrupt it based on you goal  

لاَْعْرَابُ أَشَدُّ كُفْراً وَنِفَاقاً وَأَجْدَرُ أَلاَّ يَعْلَمُوا حُدُودَ مَا أَنْزَلَ اللهُ عَلَى رَسُولِهِ وَاللهُ عَلِيمٌ حَكِيمٌ * وَمِنَ الاَْعْرَابِ مَن يَتَّخِذُ مَا يُنْفِقُ مَغْرَماً وَيَتَرَبَّصُ بكُمُ الدَّوَائِرَ عَلَيْهِمْ دَائِرَةُ السَّوءِ وَ اللهُ سَمِيعٌ عَلِيمٌ * وَ مِنَ الاَْعْرَابِ مَن يُؤْمِنُ باللهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الآخِرِ وَيَتَّخِذُ مَا يُنفِقُ قُرُبَات عِندَ اللهِ وَصَلَوَاتِ الرَّسُولِ أَلاَ إِنَّهَا قُرْبَةٌ لَهُمْ سَيُدْخِلُهُمُ اللهُ فِى رَحْمَتِهِ إِنَّ اللهَ غَفُورٌ رَحِيمٌ * وَ السَّابقُونَ الاَْوَّلُونَ مِنَ الْمُهَاجِرِينَ وَالاَْنْصَارِ وَ الَّذِينَ اتَّبَعُوهُم بإِحْسَان رَضِيَ اللهُ عَنْهُمْ وَرَضُوا عَنْهُ وَأَعَدَّ لَهُمْ جَنَّات تَجْرِى تَحْتَهَا الاَْنْهَارُ خَالِدِينَ فِيهَا أَبَداً ذلِكَ الْفَوْزُ الْعَظِيمُ * وَ مِمَّنْ حَوْلَكُم مِنَ الاَْعْرَابِ مُنَافِقُونَ وَ مِنْ أَهْلِ الْمَدِينَةِ مَرَدُوا عَلَى النِّفَاقِ لاَ تَعْلَمُهُمْ نَحْنُ نَعْلَمُهُمْ سَنُعَذِّبُهُم مَرَّتَيْنِ ثُمَّ يُرَدُّونَ إِلَى عَذَاب عَظِيم» (1).

And of the dwellers of the desert are those who believe in Allah and the latter day and take what they spend to be (means of) the nearness of Allah and the Apostle's prayers; surely it shall be means of nearness for them; Allah will make them enter into His mercy; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. (99)

6 hours ago, Doctor Tareen said:

I will rather leave a question for the readers here. When Allah says That (O Muhammad) knowest not. We know them.         لَا تَعۡلَمُهُمۡ‌ۖ نَحۡنُ نَعۡلَمُهُمۡ‌ۚ     

It suggests that Allah says that Prophet SAW did not know about many hypocrites but only Allah knew them. Can i ask if Prophet SAW did not know all, how can we claim today that we know every one who was hypocrite and who was not ?  Who was really a Momin and who was not ? Who was a Sahabi in real sense and who was not ? Do we have a larger claim of knowledge of unseen than the Prophet SAW ? This is indeed separate to the topic under discussion, for academic purpose only. Regards

in many parts of holy Quran Allah says that prophet (pbu) was not beside other prophets & also he from himself dont know nothing about people which they hide in their hearts & minds because he get all from Allah but he is not ignorant as you mentioned .

today we know past hypocrites by history of them but we can't easily find current hypocrites unless some information about them leaks. 

 

 

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10 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

In Khum everyone were present because prophet (pbu) at start of Hajj but during Ararat people were busy for Hajj rituals & the Khum was the last place that all Muslims saw prophet ,which it was the last time from all regions near or Far muslims were attended in presence of him & they were free from any disturbing ritual.

My friend i think we need to study the incidence in more detail to avoid misunderstanding. Khum took place on return from the Hajj not on the way to Hajj. It is between Makkah and Madeena. Not every one was there. I stated earlier that Every one was present at Makkah, at arafat but at Khum only those people were there who were on their way back to Madeena. Please check the Map and identfy the rout between Makkah and Madeena and find out if Prophet SAW was halfway then where on earte one can imagine that every one was there, Makkans stayed in Makkah after hajj, Yemenis embark to Yemen, People from Taif go to Taif my friend. It absolutely makes no sense and is utter misguidance. I will respond to brother Shiaman in a comprehensive manner to address each bit inshaALLAH and hope you will be able to understand my perspective better.

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1 minute ago, Doctor Tareen said:

where on earte one can imagine that every one was there, Makkans stayed in Makkah after hajj, Yemenis embark to Yemen, People from Taif go to Taif my friend. It absolutely makes no sense and is utter misguidance. I will respond to brother Shiaman in a comprehensive manner to address each bit inshaALLAH and hope you will be able to understand my perspective better.

Salam before separting all people from each other  all people & tribes even Makkah were present in Khum because it was their last visit to prophet (pbu) so they want mximum benefit of being with prophet (pbu) until last moment:einstein:

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16 hours ago, Ron_Burgundy said:

Are you kidding me? Don't  you know about ghadeer? Prophet (PBUHP) said on several occasions that Imam Ali will be his successor. If he wanted to give black and white whats wrong with that?

 

My friend this was a very long post by yourself. We are going into too many other issues. We discussed issue of Pen and Paper. I stated few very specific points. I will appreciate if i receive a response on each point i stated or else i will tend to believe that i was right in making that statement. If we agree on the points i made then we will move on to the next point, which why Umar RA apposed to hand over pen and paper. Regards

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4 minutes ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam before separting all people from each other  all people & tribes even Makkah were present in Khum because it was their last visit to prophet (pbu) so they want mximum benefit of being with prophet (pbu) until last moment:einstein:

But they were with Prophet SAW during whole Hajj :) Why are we looking for wrong excuses and wrong reasons to support our belief that there was every one at Khum. No they were not all there. Please understand this simple fact. No way you can have any logical reason to believe that every one performing hajj traveled to Khum as there was important announcement in making. See the Map my friend and look at the routs Taif, Yemen and think with a rational and open mind. You will understand my point. But still you have right to disagree. I respect that but atleast you will understand my view.

There are so many questions raised in different post which i wish to respond in time. Please let it be only an academic discussion. 

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12 minutes ago, Doctor Tareen said:

But they were with Prophet SAW during whole Hajj :) Why are we looking for wrong excuses and wrong reasons to support our belief that there was every one at Khum. No they were not all there. Please understand this simple fact. No way you can have any logical reason to believe that every one performing hajj traveled to Khum as there was important announcement in making. See the Map my friend and look at the routs Taif, Yemen and think with a rational and open mind. You will understand my point. But still you have right to disagree. I respect that but atleast you will understand my view.

There are so many questions raised in different post which i wish to respond in time. Please let it be only an academic discussion. 

my opinion is that there were trustful & high ranking from every tribe & region .they attend there because of greatness of prophet (pbu) so they don't  miss this great fortune by speedy separation from prophet (pbu) that Khum was the last point that all of gather together in his presence so prophet by order of Allah announced the most important   message at that point as last will of Allah & him   in order to  remains forever for all people.

Edited by Ashvazdanghe
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8 hours ago, Doctor Tareen said:

No hypocrite is a hypocrite , Momin is a Momin. I do not see any intermediate category as mentioned in an early post by a brother. I stated earlier, best of Sahaba were the Muhajiroon and Alnsar, best among them were Sabiqoon al Awaloon. Let me quote an ayat for further clarification please. Let see who Allah is praising the companions and on what basis. Lets see how Allah made categories of companions.

 وَٱلسَّـٰبِقُونَ ٱلۡأَوَّلُونَ مِنَ ٱلۡمُهَـٰجِرِينَ وَٱلۡأَنصَارِ وَٱلَّذِينَ ٱتَّبَعُوهُم بِـإِحۡسَـٰنٍ۬ رَّضِىَ ٱللَّهُ عَنۡہُمۡ وَرَضُواْ عَنۡهُ وَأَعَدَّ لَهُمۡ جَنَّـٰتٍ۬ تَجۡرِى تَحۡتَهَا ٱلۡأَنۡهَـٰرُ خَـٰلِدِينَ فِيہَآ أَبَدً۬ا‌ۚ ذَٲلِكَ ٱلۡفَوۡزُ ٱلۡعَظِيمُ 

And the first to lead the way, of the Muhajirin and the Ansar, and those who followed them in goodness - Allah is well pleased with them and they are well pleased with Him, and He hath made ready for them Gardens underneath which rivers flow, wherein they will abide for ever. That is the supreme triumph.

Allah announcing bounties for Awaloon and Sabiqoon, Muhajireen and Ansar, and even Momineen who followed them. We all know who Muhajireen were. We all know who migrated along with Prophet SAW. Allah has not excluded anyone among mujhroon here from his blessings.

1. The above verse provides the evidence that only True believers among the companions are being praised.  (This is what i have mentioned in my earlier post as group 1)

The following part of the verse is evidence for confrimation :

"And the first to lead the way, of the Muhajirin and the Ansar, and those who followed them in goodness - Allah is well pleased with them"

Thus ONLY those (Not ALL) the companions are covered in this verse.

2. The assumption made by yourself that "Allah has not excluded anyone among mujhroon here from his blessings. " is against the verse of quran mentioned above and the other verses mentioned below for confirmation.

3.  The Quran by its verses does mention the evidence about the third / intermediate category about the companions who were believers but not sincere followers of the prophet saaw and going against him on many occasions.. The following verses of quran are sufficient for it as evidence:

مُّحَمَّدٌ رَّسُولُ اللَّهِ ۚ وَالَّذِينَ مَعَهُ أَشِدَّاءُ عَلَى الْكُفَّارِ رُحَمَاءُ بَيْنَهُمْ ۖ تَرَاهُمْ رُكَّعًا سُجَّدًا يَبْتَغُونَ فَضْلًا مِّنَ اللَّهِ وَرِضْوَانًا ۖ سِيمَاهُمْ فِي وُجُوهِهِم مِّنْ أَثَرِ السُّجُودِ ۚ ذَٰلِكَ مَثَلُهُمْ فِي التَّوْرَاةِ ۚ وَمَثَلُهُمْ فِي الْإِنجِيلِ كَزَرْعٍ أَخْرَجَ شَطْأَهُ فَآزَرَهُ فَاسْتَغْلَظَ فَاسْتَوَىٰ عَلَىٰ سُوقِهِ يُعْجِبُ الزُّرَّاعَ لِيَغِيظَ بِهِمُ الْكُفَّارَ ۗ وَعَدَ اللَّهُ الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا

وَعَمِلُوا الصَّالِحَاتِ مِنْهُم مَّغْفِرَةً وَأَجْرًا عَظِيمًا

Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah ; and those with him are forceful against the disbelievers, merciful among themselves. You see them bowing and prostrating [in prayer], seeking bounty from Allah and [His] pleasure. Their mark is on their faces from the trace of prostration. That is their description in the Torah. And their description in the Gospel is as a plant which produces its offshoots and strengthens them so they grow firm and stand upon their stalks, delighting the sowers - so that Allah may enrage by them the disbelievers. Allah has promised those who believe and do righteous deeds among them forgiveness and a great reward. (48:29)

In the above verse Allah swt has mentioned that he has promised for those ONLY as given below:

Allah has promised those who believe and do righteous deeds among them forgiveness and a great reward.”

 For the Second . intermediate group the Quran mentions the Warning to  Companions (sahaba) the following verses are quoted:

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا مَا لَكُمْ إِذَا قِيلَ لَكُمُ انفِرُوا فِي سَبِيلِ اللَّهِ اثَّاقَلْتُمْ إِلَى الْأَرْضِ ۚ أَرَضِيتُم بِالْحَيَاةِ الدُّنْيَا مِنَ الْآخِرَةِ ۚ فَمَا مَتَاعُ الْحَيَاةِ الدُّنْيَا فِي الْآخِرَةِ إِلَّا قَلِيلٌ

O you who have believed, what is [the matter] with you that, when you are told to go forth in the cause of Allah , you adhere heavily to the earth? Are you satisfied with the life of this world rather than the Hereafter? But what is the enjoyment of worldly life compared to the Hereafter except a [very] little. (9:38)

إِلَّا تَنفِرُوا يُعَذِّبْكُمْ عَذَابًا أَلِيمًا وَيَسْتَبْدِلْ قَوْمًا غَيْرَكُمْ وَلَا تَضُرُّوهُ شَيْئًا ۗ وَاللَّهُ عَلَىٰ كُلِّ شَيْءٍ قَدِيرٌ

If you do not go forth, He will punish you with a painful punishment and will replace you with another people, and you will not harm Him at all. And Allah is over all things competent. (9;39)

This is a clear indication that some of the companions were lazy during the call to Jihad and other activities, and, thus, deserved the above reprimand by Allah swt. This is not the only instance where Allah swt threatened to replace them:

هَا أَنتُمْ هَٰؤُلَاءِ تُدْعَوْنَ لِتُنفِقُوا فِي سَبِيلِ اللَّهِ فَمِنكُم مَّن يَبْخَلُ ۖ وَمَن يَبْخَلْ فَإِنَّمَا يَبْخَلُ عَن نَّفْسِهِ ۚ وَاللَّهُ الْغَنِيُّ وَأَنتُمُ الْفُقَرَاءُ ۚ وَإِن تَتَوَلَّوْا يَسْتَبْدِلْ قَوْمًا غَيْرَكُمْ ثُمَّ لَا يَكُونُوا أَمْثَالَكُم

Here you are - those invited to spend in the cause of Allah - but among you are those who withhold [out of greed]. And whoever withholds only withholds [benefit] from himself; and Allah is the Free of need, while you are the needy. And if you turn away, He will replace you with another people; then they will not be the likes of you. (47:38)

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا لَا تَرْفَعُوا أَصْوَاتَكُمْ فَوْقَ صَوْتِ النَّبِيِّ وَلَا تَجْهَرُوا لَهُ بِالْقَوْلِ كَجَهْرِ بَعْضِكُمْ لِبَعْضٍ أَن تَحْبَطَ أَعْمَالُكُمْ وَأَنتُمْ لَا تَشْعُرُونَ

O you who have believed, do not raise your voices above the voice of the Prophet or be loud to him in speech like the loudness of some of you to others, lest your deeds become worthless while you perceive not. (49:2)

وَإِذَا رَأَوْا تِجَارَةً أَوْ لَهْوًا انفَضُّوا إِلَيْهَا وَتَرَكُوكَ قَائِمًا ۚ قُلْ مَا عِندَ اللَّهِ خَيْرٌ مِّنَ اللَّهْوِ وَمِنَ التِّجَارَةِ ۚ وَاللَّهُ خَيْرُ الرَّازِقِينَ

But when they saw a transaction or a diversion, [O Muhammad], they rushed to it and left you (prophet) standing. Say, "What is with Allah is better than diversion and than a transaction, and Allah is the best of providers." (62:11)

4. Thus it is well proven from the Quran that the companions are not one group (but three groups) 

wasalam

 

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8 hours ago, Doctor Tareen said:

Regarding Munafiqeen, i will quote you a verse to clarify that Munafiqeen had nothing to do with SAHABA RA or Muhajireenn. They are identified with their charateristics and where they belong to. The very next verse says

وَمِمَّنۡ حَوۡلَكُم مِّنَ ٱلۡأَعۡرَابِ مُنَـٰفِقُونَ‌ۖ وَمِنۡ أَهۡلِ ٱلۡمَدِينَةِ‌ۖ مَرَدُواْ عَلَى ٱلنِّفَاقِ لَا تَعۡلَمُهُمۡ‌ۖ نَحۡنُ نَعۡلَمُهُمۡ‌ۚ سَنُعَذِّبُہُم مَّرَّتَيۡنِ ثُمَّ يُرَدُّونَ إِلَىٰ عَذَابٍ عَظِيمٍ۬

And among those around you of the wandering Arabs there are hypocrites, and among the townspeople of Al-Madinah (there are some who) persist in hypocrisy whom thou (O Muhammad) knowest not. We know them, and We shall chastise them twice; then they will be relegated to a painful doom

The above clearly describe the presence of the munafiqeen around the prophet saaw ie who were arabs and among the people of Medina.. The verse is very clear in its context. The added part in translation ie ((there are some who)  has nothing to do with the original arabic text of the verse.

The simple question arises here did the companions / Sahaba  live in Medina after Hijra ie Muhajirin  lived in Medina after hijra in Medina ? 

The answer to the question based on history is Yes. Thus it confirms the presence of munafiqeen among the companions who lived in Medina after  hijra. they are counted as third group in my post mentioned earlier.

wasalam 

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11 hours ago, Doctor Tareen said:

I will rather leave a question for the readers here. When Allah says That (O Muhammad) knowest not. We know them.         لَا تَعۡلَمُهُمۡ‌ۖ نَحۡنُ نَعۡلَمُهُمۡ‌ۚ     

It suggests that Allah says that Prophet SAW did not know about many hypocrites but only Allah knew them. Can i ask if Prophet SAW did not know all, how can we claim today that we know every one who was hypocrite and who was not ?  Who was really a Momin and who was not ? Who was a Sahabi in real sense and who was not ? Do we have a larger claim of knowledge of unseen than the Prophet SAW ? This is indeed separate to the topic under discussion, for academic purpose only. Regards

This statement is just based on insufficient understanding of the other verses of Quran. I  quote  the following verses in this concern:

"He (alone) knows the Unseen, nor does He make any one acquainted with His Mysteries Except an apostle whom He has chosen: and then He makes a band of watchers march before him and behind him" (72:26/27)

The prophet Muhammad saaw is the chosen representative of Allah swt and he is the last of the prophets, He has been given the necessary  knowledge of unseen by Allah swt.

"And he (Muhammad) is not niggardly the Knowledge of the Unseen.”(Qur’an 81:24).

وَمَا هُوَ عَلَى الْغَيْبِ بِضَنِينٍ﴿٢٤﴾ 

The discussion about this can be seen based on the verses of quran and hadith of the prophet saaw from sunni sources, The link is mentioned below:

http://www.ahlus-sunna.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=54

The hadith of the prophet Muhamamd saww provide the following identification of munafiqeen among the companions::

Volume 8, Book 76, Number 578:

Narrated 'Abdullah:

The Prophet said, "I am your predecessor at the Lake-Fount." 'Abdullah added: The Prophet said, "Iam your predecessor at the Lake-Fount, and some of you will be brought in front of me till I will see them and then they will be taken away from me and I will say, 'O Lord, my companions!' It will besaid, 'You do not know what they did after you had left.'

Volume 8, Book 76, Number 585:

Narrated Abu Hazim from Sahl bin Sa'd:

The Prophet said, "I am your predecessor (forerunner) at the Lake-Fount, and whoever will pass by there, he will drink from it and whoever will drink from it, he will never be thirsty. There will come to me some people whom I will recognize, and they will recognize me, but a barrier will be placed between me and them." Abu Hazim added: An-Nu'man bin Abi 'Aiyash, on hearing me, said. "Did you hear this from Sahl?" I said, "Yes." He said, " I bear witness that I heard Abu Said Al-Khudri saying the same, adding that the Prophet said: 'I will say: They are of me (i.e. my followers). It will be said, 'You do not know what they innovated (new things) in the religion after you left'. I will say, 'Far removed, far removed (from mercy), those who changed (their religion) after me." Abu Huraira narrated that the Prophet said, "On the Day of Resurrection a group of companions will come to me, but will be driven away from the Lake-Fount, and I will say, 'O Lord (those are) my companions!' It will be said,'You have no knowledge as to what they innovated after you left; they turned apostate as renegades (reverted from Islam)."

Volume 8, Book 76, Number 586:

Narrated Ibn Al-Musaiyab:

The companions of the Prophet said, "Some men from my companions will come to my Lake-Fount and they will be driven away from it, and I will say, 'O Lord, my companions!' It will be said, 'You have no knowledge of what they innovated after you left: they turned apostate as renegades (reverted from Islam).

Volume 9, Book 88, Number 174:

Narrated Sahl bin Sa'd:

I heard the Prophet saying, "I am your predecessor at the Lake-Fount (Kauthar), and whoever will come to it, will drink from it, and whoever will drink from it, will never become thirsty after that.

There will come to me some people whom I know and they know me, and then a barrier will be set up between me and them." Abu Sa'id Al-Khudri added that the Prophet further said: "I will say those people are from me. It will be said, 'You do not know what changes and new things they did after you.' Then I will say, 'Far removed (from mercy), far removed (from mercy), those who changed (the religion) after me! "

.....Many more

The confirmation from the verses of Quran for munafiqeen among the companions is given below:

يَحْلِفُونَ بِاللَّهِ مَا قَالُوا وَلَقَدْ قَالُوا كَلِمَةَ الْكُفْرِ وَكَفَرُوا بَعْدَ إِسْلَامِهِمْ وَهَمُّوا بِمَا لَمْ يَنَالُوا ۚ وَمَا نَقَمُوا إِلَّا أَنْ أَغْنَاهُمُ اللَّهُ وَرَسُولُهُ مِن فَضْلِهِ ۚ فَإِن يَتُوبُوا يَكُ خَيْرًا لَّهُمْ ۖ وَإِن يَتَوَلَّوْا يُعَذِّبْهُمُ اللَّهُ عَذَابًا أَلِيمًا فِي الدُّنْيَا وَالْآخِرَةِ ۚ وَمَا لَهُمْ فِي الْأَرْضِ مِن وَلِيٍّ وَلَا نَصِيرٍ

They swear by Allah that they did not say [anything against the Prophet] while they had said the word of disbelief and disbelieved after their [pretense of] Islam and planned that which they were not to attain. And they were not resentful except [for the fact] that Allah and His Messenger had enriched them of His bounty. So if they repent, it is better for them; but if they turn away, Allah will punish them with a painful punishment in this world and the Hereafter. And there will not be for them on earth any protector or helper. (9:74)

أَلَمْ يَأْنِ لِلَّذِينَ آمَنُوا أَن تَخْشَعَ قُلُوبُهُمْ لِذِكْرِ اللَّهِ وَمَا نَزَلَ مِنَ الْحَقِّ وَلَا يَكُونُوا كَالَّذِينَ أُوتُوا الْكِتَابَ مِن قَبْلُ فَطَالَ عَلَيْهِمُ الْأَمَدُ فَقَسَتْ قُلُوبُهُمْ ۖ وَكَثِيرٌ مِّنْهُمْ فَاسِقُونَ

Has the time not come for those who have believed that their hearts should become humbly submissive at the remembrance of Allah and what has come down of the truth? And let them not be like those who were given the Scripture before, and a long period passed over them, so their hearts hardened; and many of them are defiantly disobedient. (57:16)

First, Allah swt is addressing the companions and THEN comparing them to the Jews and the Christians.  " Has the time not come for those who have believed that their hearts should become humbly submissive at the remembrance of Allah..."  and then tell them: "...and And let them not be like those who were given the Scripture before,..."  The verse was revealed as a questioning by Allah swt regarding some of the Muhajiroon (the Immigrants), who 17 years after the Quran was revealed, had still not fully believed in their HEARTS. Allah swt as a result, showed disapproval. Again, at the end, Allah points out that among them are many defiantly disobedient.

Thus in this manner when Quran categorizes the companions  we believe that truth is revealed in Quran.

wasalam

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On 16/02/2018 at 3:25 PM, Ron_Burgundy said:

Are you kidding me?

You tried to respond to my first point only. By the response you gave now i have to believe that we do not have any evidence that Prophet was to make an announcement of his successor. So the claim made earlier by every one that it was about Maula Ali was false and has no strong basis.

I will appreciate if you or anyone can respond to the rest of the points specifically so i can see if am missing some thing. We are discussing Qirtas incidence and not how many times before that announcemnet was made. Lets get over with Issue of pen n paper first. I tend to imagine that the points i raised are correct and there is no strong argument against. 

We have hardly touched the initial subject in this incidence which is what was Prophet going to announce or why did he not announce if it was really a waseeah. I will wait for the clarification. Then we address was is right to disregard Prophets wish or not or what was the condition of prophet SAW

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11 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

 

The presence and categorization of companions in three groups ie first group as True believers, second group as Believers going against the prophet saww in his life and thrid group as the munfiqeen /. hypocrites among the companions have  been well proven in the light of the verses of quran. Thus the definitions of these three groups is complete in this thread and it leaves no room for any further discussion about it.

wasalam

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@Doctor Tareen if the prophet said ali is mawla in front of only one person that means there is revealed of words  it didnt matter how many people and where he said the word where revelaed by him mean he didnt did by himself Allah is the one who command 

And you were saying you accept these words so is there any of your fake writers had said that there was a word revelaed for sunnah befor this  

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On 2/17/2018 at 10:32 AM, Doctor Tareen said:

You tried to respond to my first point only. By the response you gave now i have to believe that we do not have any evidence that Prophet was to make an announcement of his successor. So the claim made earlier by every one that it was about Maula Ali was false and has no strong basis.

I will appreciate if you or anyone can respond to the rest of the points specifically so i can see if am missing some thing. We are discussing Qirtas incidence and not how many times before that announcemnet was made. Lets get over with Issue of pen n paper first. I tend to imagine that the points i raised are correct and there is no strong argument against. 

We have hardly touched the initial subject in this incidence which is what was Prophet going to announce or why did he not announce if it was really a waseeah. I will wait for the clarification. Then we address was is right to disregard Prophets wish or not or what was the condition of prophet SAW

I responded to all of them and a lack of response makes me think you are searching for answers. Good luck brother...

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16 hours ago, shiaman14 said:

I responded to all of them and a lack of response makes me think you are searching for answers. Good luck brother...

I am on family holiday trip so just have got some time to respond. By my answers earlier you should have an idea that i have done my search well before my friend. As i said i will respond in time as it has been a very comprehensive discussion. I will go point by point. So bare with me. 

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Shiaman

Let me write my points briefly and we analyse how you weakly you addressed each of them.

    1) It was claimed by all my friends that Prophet SAW was about to announce a successor on thrusday, that is proven false. 
    
    I have not seen a single logical argument to support that claim. Rather most of brothers initially claimed that it was announcement of successor but later most have retracted from the position and resorted to puting forward further quotations of previous occasions where they had similar claims like Ghadeer Khum etc but non seem to admit or recognize that they were wrong to make a conclusion in the first place saying Prophet SAW was to announce Maula Alis Khilafat on Thrusday as a Waseeah. 
    So lets admit that no one knows what was the intention or supposed Waseeah and let not one make false assumptions.
    
    2) Now Brother Shiaman comes up with another stance that it was actually an advice for Umar Farooq RA and his group only and rest of the people didnt need any such advice. So Peophet SAW didnt gave any instructions after as there was no need. What an irony my friends. The whole narrative is being demolished in just a sentence and a totally new narrative comes in now that it was not a Waseeah for whole Ummah or final announcement of Maula Ali's caliphate or some very important guideline to prevent the umaah from going ASTRAY, but just a last piece of advice for Farooq e Azam RA who didnt take it and was unlucky at the end. I believe my Shia brothers first have to agree on one stance and adapt a nonshifting position before level any allegations. Please refer back to what Prophet SAW said and what my Shia brothers claim in the start. When we do not have answers and we are wrong in our conclusions we resort to shifting our stances and changing our positions. That certainly never helps
    Its very simple and a straight forward fact. Prophet SAW wished to do Waseeah, He had 3 more days to do so, write it down but he never did so. This simple fact causes main trouble to the people who wish to build a castle on weak grounds and end up with collapsed building.
    
    3) Brother Shiaman said Prophet SAW kicked out Umar Farooq RA only and rest of them stayed. May be it was my brother wish but fact is every one was asked to leave the room of Prophet SAW and no one of them stayed. Just another hollow claim and building another castle on weak grounds will again not help. 
    The argument was between Sahaba. No one addressed to Prophet SAW but they differed on this among themselves and argument became distressing so Prophets SAW got irritated as he was already sick that day. So he asked everyone to leave. Including the group who were in favour of providing paper and pen. So please do not distort the facts here. Or there will be more trouble then after assuming that Maula ALI RA stayed as he also then never provided paper and pen as Prophet SAW ordered. Rather in not doing so he did what Umar RA advised earlier. Or if he did, then where is the written waseeah and where is the proof that he did ? To prove that ALI ra was in favour of providing paper and pen one has no choice but to believe that he was also asked to leave or he would have provided it if he had stayed and others left. If you are inclined to believe that he was not asked (kicked out like others) to leave then you are stuck with more prounced trouble that he certainly couldnt provide the pen n paper either and we have not received any Waseeah after.

Inshort if he left he might have been in favour of providing paper n pen, if he didnt then he is equally responsible for not providing it and will the burden or your curses.

So fact is that every one was asked to leave(kicked out according to my friend Shiaman) and please do not imagine scenarios according to your own wishes. These excuses do no good to either party in duscussion.
    
    4) Some mentioned about Prophet SAW saying earlier in front of every one that i am leaving behind Quran and my Ahel Bayt, you hold on to both and you will never go Astray. Regardless of the fact what actual narration was, i ask what was then left to make another waseeah in writing when he already made (unwritten) clear announcement befor at Arafat or Khum(which ever is your belief) ? He said it and its written by 100s of thouands and being shared on this very forum by every Shia brother and on many other forums. There was nothing left to say on thyrsday. Yes except may be an advice for Umar RA as my brother claimed. Fact is that we wish to achieve something here and that is to find some ground to blame Umar Farooq RA. Unfortunately what ever way you look at this incidence, no where one can justify what my dear Shia brothers had concluded earlier. I hope my points will enlighten everyone and atleast show everyone another and a true perspective and make every one realize that things are not the way they are narrated n projected by the scholars.


    5) Coming to the last point which i am sure will be a total new aspect of this incidence for my friends who so far have been blidly listening and believing deceiving scholars. That is, "was it right to prevent provision of paper n pen when Peophet SAW was sick" ?  What was the reason behind ? What was Prophet condition at the time ? I will post this separately so we can talk separately about this as it may trigger alot of responces from the brothers i know. So i will respond to queries regarding this particular part of the incidence separately.

Kind Regards

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19 hours ago, shiaman14 said:

I responded to all of them and a lack of response makes me think you are searching for answers. Good luck brother...

Lastly we analyze in detail what Umar RA said and what was the condition of the Prophet SAW. Here are facts one can easily gather if read all the authentic narrations about the incidence.


    1) Almost in every narration it is clearly mentioned by the first narrator (Mostly Ibn e Abbas RA) that Prophet SAW became severely ill on thursday. Here are the words of Ibne Abbas who first admits himself that Prophet SAW became seriously deteriorated and ill on thursday.

"On Thursday the illness of Allah's Apostle was aggravated" 
    Sahih Bukhari 

"The ailment of Allah's Apostle became worse (on Thursday) " says another narration

Narrated ibne abbas. "The illness of Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) took a serious turn (on this day)"
    

Ibn Abbas reported: "When Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) was about to leave this world"  
    
Infact in every narration the main Narrator himself first admits and makes an explicit statement that "That thursday Prophet SAW got very ill, deteriorated and his condition was aggravated and he was about to die or pass away".
    
    Now lets see in all those Narrations what did Umar bin Khattab RA said.
    
 ¡) Umar said, 'The Prophet is seriously ill, and we have got Allah's Book with us and that is sufficient for us.'

¡¡) Umar said," Prophet SAW is deeply afflicted with pain, we have book of Allah, It is sufficient for us".


 In almost all narrations we see that the first part of Umar Farooq RA statement was exactly what the narrator reported himself in his report. Which is that Prophet SAW was seriously ill, deeply afflicted with pain, has deteriorated. So both comfirm the same that prophet SAW was indeed very ill and his condition was grave. So the first part of the statement made by Umar Farooq RA was absolutly true. 
 

Now i am at loss to see when my Shia brothers claimed that Umar Farooq RA called Prophet Crazy ??? Or Umar Farooq RA said that Prophet SAW was talking non sense or he said Prophet SAW has become insane. We can see that Ibne Abbas specifically mentioned the exact words of Umar Farooq RA. His words were only pointing towards the fact how seriously ill Prophet SAW was and that was concerning as Ibne Abbas reported that we thought he was about to die. Now who ever made false accusations against Umar Farooq RS should worry about himself as false allegations carry huge burden of sin.
    
2) Lets see the second part of Umar RA statement.
    " We have book of Allah with us, it is sufficient for us"
   

I am again at loss why this statement could cause so much hate against Umar RA while he stated the truth which Prophet  SAW advised earlier. That i am leaving 2 things among you. 1 is Quran, hold on to it and you will not go Astray. Then my Ahlelbayt, beware of their rights.
    This narration is on the tip of the tongue of every lover of Ahlelbayt. But why do they seem to forget that when Umar RA says exactly the same what Prophet said before. Hold on to the book and you will not go astray. Umar Farooq RA repeated there what Prophet SAW said earlier. We have the book of Allah and that is sufficient for us. Well that is sufficient for us because Prophet SAW said so not why Umar RA is saying so. Why is Umar RA facing such disrespect among Prophet SAW followers while he said not a single word in addition to or less than what Prophet SAW said himself ?
    
    3) I am at loss to see any of the narrations where Narrator Ibn e Abbas RA ever said that Umar Farooq RA prevented the provision of Pen n Paper. His statement is clearly mentioned with his exact words but no where i could see any narrator saying, Umar Farooq RA stoped, probihited or himself opposed the provision of pen n paper. He is quoted only for his statement and his presence there. There were others who argued based on Umar RA statment and opposed provision of pen n paper as a result. See the few narrations which were posted in this forum by a shia brother when i searched.
    
    Narrated Ibn 'Abbas:
    When Allah's Apostle was on his death-bed and in the house there were some people among whom was 'Umar bin Al-Khattab, the Prophet said, "Come, let me write for you a statement after which you will not go astray." 'Umar said, "The Prophet is seriously ill and you have the Qur'an; so the Book of Allah is enough for us." The people present in the house differed and quarrelled. Some said "Go near so that the Prophet may write for you a statement after which you will not go astray," while the others said as Umar said. When they caused a hue and cry before the Prophet, Allah's Apostle said, "Go away!" Narrated 'Ubaidullah: Ibn 'Abbas used to say, "It was very unfortunate that Allah's Apostle was prevented from writing that statement for them because of their disagreement and noise."
    
    Narrated 'Ubaidullah bin 'Abdullah:
    Ibn 'Abbas said, "When the ailment of the Prophet became worse, he said, 'Bring for me (writing) paper and I will write for you a statement after which you will not go astray.' But 'Umar said, 'The Prophet is seriously ill, and we have got Allah's Book with us and that is sufficient for us.' But the companions of the Prophet differed about this and there was a hue and cry. On that the Prophet said to them, 'Go away. It is not right that you should quarrel in front of me." Ibn 'Abbas came out saying, "It was most unfortunate that Allah's Apostle was prevented from writing that statement for them because of their disagreement and noise.


    Sa'id b. Jubair reported that Ibn 'Abbas said: Thursday, (and then said): What is this Thursday? He then wept so much that his tears moistened the pebbles. I said: Ibn 'Abbas, what is (significant) about Thursday? He (Ibn 'Abbas) said: The illness of Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) took a serious turn (on this day), and he said: Come to me, so that I should write for you a document that you may not go astray after me. They (the Companions around him) disputed, and it is not right to dispute in the presence of the Apostle. They said: How is he (Allah's Apostle)? Has he lost his consciousness? Try to learn from him (this point). He (the Holy Prophet) said: Leave me. I am better in the state . I make a will about three things: Turn out the polytheists from the territory of Arabia; show hospitality to the (foreign) delegations as I used to show them hospitality. He (the narrator) said: He (Ibn Abbas) kept silent on the third point, or he (the narrator) said: But I forgot that.

    
So we see that Umar RA statement is separate and is specifically mentioned by the narrator which includes no words suggesting Prophet SAW was Crazy or Non sense or Insane. Neither it is by any means reported that he prevented others to provide pen n paper. Rather they (Others not Umar RA) started argument in front of the Prophet SAW and it became noisy so Prophet SAW asked everyone to leave. What Umar RA said was just an observation by looking at Prophets condition which is indisputable, as he was really very ill and then by saying that a document which will prevent all going astray, one can understand it will certainly be Quran what else. How can it be anything other than Quran and Prophet SAW said that earlier. Rather Umar RA reminded everyone of Prophets earlier announcement their that We have the Quran the final document holding on to which we will never go astray. 
I tried hard to see anything objectionable said by Umar Farooq RA and i failed badly whenever i look at what he said exactly. 
    
    3) Last part of this whole discussion is whether Prophet was in a condition where he could really write some thing or not. Was he sick and mentally not fully aware or was he confused/
disoriented ?
    By reading the whole narration with all its versions we analyze that the difference among companions was on the basis that if Prophet SAW was well oriented and not confused or in a state of a delirium. This is a medical term we use when we come across a sick person who is ill enough that his mental awareness is affected and he is unable to make decisions or sound judgements. Such person is in a state of confusion and this can happen in any severe infection or illness.  We call it delirium. Delirium is a temporary illness related state where one can get irritable, confused, drowsy, impaired memory, restlessness, agitation, in some cases hallucinations. This is a temporary state and it tends to improve with treatment of illness. It can be fluctuating which means person can be in and out of confusion.
    Now when i analyze the event, i am to believe that companions suspected Prophet SAW was in a state of delirium. The signs i see as a Medical Professional are, Severe illness, Restlessness, Irritability, Confusion, Drowsiness. I do not see any thing suggestive of hallucination in the reports.
    I understand that most of my friends will have less problem with Prophet SAW having a severe illness, restlessness, irritability but they are likely to refuse to accept the fact that Prophet could be confused and drowsy. Well the reason i found he was confused at the time was that he was asking for a pen n paper to write something but he wouldnt have to write it himself. This was odd as he would ask his compnanions to write as he did everytime he received revelation. I am not getting in to discussion whether Prophet could write or not or whats the meaning of Ummi. But he would certainly not have writen himself. He just had to say it and ask companions to write. So saying that he wishes to write himself something suggests a surprising behavior which was not normal. That was clearly what made companions worried. To me it is not surprising to see a state of confusion.

Then we see that he never wrote anything after even though he advised companions regarding expelling Pagans from Hijaz and how to treat the foreign delegations with gifts etc. This also suggests he was in and out of confusion. Thats perfectly understandable. Its intermittent confusion. So  there was no written document and he never asked again for it when he later was in a better form and was giving above mentioned instructions. He did not remind others to bring pen n paper again. That it self proves there was nothing significant or he would gave done it later. Or may be it was the same as he instructed about expelling pagans from Hijaz and etc

Few more aspects can further be discussed once i see responses to above explanations.

If any of my friends disagree with what i said, i am happy to see the reasons. But disagreement has to be logical. I must say changing positions and retracting from earlier narrative can help one have a little escape for time being but it will never hide the truth. Umar Farooq RA carries no burden of what he said. Prophet SAW was seriously ill, confused, irritable, restless and drowsy as reported. Who ever disagreed had valid points on both sides. But it was unfortunate as prophet SAW was not comfortable and was dustrssed with ilness already and asked everyone to leave. His condition improved later in 3 days and he gave few instructions by himself. There is nothing factual to support the claims made earlier in the post by my friends.

Kind Regards
 

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Salam in 1.first as same situation for Abubakr ,Umar  orders that they write is will there is a contradiction that Abubakr was higher than prophet(pbu) & didn’t say false words but prophet(pbu)  in this situation was saying nonsense words.

2. Prophet said holy Quran & Ahlulbayt(as) never seperates from each other but Umar just mentioned first part in his favore.

3. It was a message for all Muslim to the end of time so it is not comparable with order about Pagans that was only valid during Lifetime of Prophet(pbu) this is a false comparative idea that we know both them as the same & you forgotten Hudaybia peace treatment that there is no evidence from it is available right now.

 

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4 hours ago, Doctor Tareen said:

I am again at loss why this statement could cause so much hate against Umar RA while he stated the truth which Prophet  SAW advised earlier. That i am leaving 2 things among you. 1 is Quran, hold on to it and you will not go Astray. Then my Ahlelbayt, beware of their rights.
    This narration is on the tip of the tongue of every lover of Ahlelbayt. But why do they seem to forget that when Umar RA says exactly the same what Prophet said before.

Umar didn't know anything. If prophet asked you to give him pen and paper you do give him. 

This should provide you your answers. 

 

 

 

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7 hours ago, Doctor Tareen said:

Shiaman

Let me write my points briefly and we analyse how you weakly you addressed each of them.

    1) It was claimed by all my friends that Prophet SAW was about to announce a successor on thrusday, that is proven false. 
    
    I have not seen a single logical argument to support that claim. Rather most of brothers initially claimed that it was announcement of successor but later most have retracted from the position and resorted to puting forward further quotations of previous occasions where they had similar claims like Ghadeer Khum etc but non seem to admit or recognize that they were wrong to make a conclusion in the first place saying Prophet SAW was to announce Maula Alis Khilafat on Thrusday as a Waseeah. 
    So lets admit that no one knows what was the intention or supposed Waseeah and let not one make false assumptions.
    
    2) Now Brother Shiaman comes up with another stance that it was actually an advice for Umar Farooq RA and his group only and rest of the people didnt need any such advice. So Peophet SAW didnt gave any instructions after as there was no need. What an irony my friends. The whole narrative is being demolished in just a sentence and a totally new narrative comes in now that it was not a Waseeah for whole Ummah or final announcement of Maula Ali's caliphate or some very important guideline to prevent the umaah from going ASTRAY, but just a last piece of advice for Farooq e Azam RA who didnt take it and was unlucky at the end. I believe my Shia brothers first have to agree on one stance and adapt a nonshifting position before level any allegations. Please refer back to what Prophet SAW said and what my Shia brothers claim in the start. When we do not have answers and we are wrong in our conclusions we resort to shifting our stances and changing our positions. That certainly never helps
    Its very simple and a straight forward fact. Prophet SAW wished to do Waseeah, He had 3 more days to do so, write it down but he never did so. This simple fact causes main trouble to the people who wish to build a castle on weak grounds and end up with collapsed building.
    
    3) Brother Shiaman said Prophet SAW kicked out Umar Farooq RA only and rest of them stayed. May be it was my brother wish but fact is every one was asked to leave the room of Prophet SAW and no one of them stayed. Just another hollow claim and building another castle on weak grounds will again not help. 
    The argument was between Sahaba. No one addressed to Prophet SAW but they differed on this among themselves and argument became distressing so Prophets SAW got irritated as he was already sick that day. So he asked everyone to leave. Including the group who were in favour of providing paper and pen. So please do not distort the facts here. Or there will be more trouble then after assuming that Maula ALI RA stayed as he also then never provided paper and pen as Prophet SAW ordered. Rather in not doing so he did what Umar RA advised earlier. Or if he did, then where is the written waseeah and where is the proof that he did ? To prove that ALI ra was in favour of providing paper and pen one has no choice but to believe that he was also asked to leave or he would have provided it if he had stayed and others left. If you are inclined to believe that he was not asked (kicked out like others) to leave then you are stuck with more prounced trouble that he certainly couldnt provide the pen n paper either and we have not received any Waseeah after.

Inshort if he left he might have been in favour of providing paper n pen, if he didnt then he is equally responsible for not providing it and will the burden or your curses.

So fact is that every one was asked to leave(kicked out according to my friend Shiaman) and please do not imagine scenarios according to your own wishes. These excuses do no good to either party in duscussion.
    
    4) Some mentioned about Prophet SAW saying earlier in front of every one that i am leaving behind Quran and my Ahel Bayt, you hold on to both and you will never go Astray. Regardless of the fact what actual narration was, i ask what was then left to make another waseeah in writing when he already made (unwritten) clear announcement befor at Arafat or Khum(which ever is your belief) ? He said it and its written by 100s of thouands and being shared on this very forum by every Shia brother and on many other forums. There was nothing left to say on thyrsday. Yes except may be an advice for Umar RA as my brother claimed. Fact is that we wish to achieve something here and that is to find some ground to blame Umar Farooq RA. Unfortunately what ever way you look at this incidence, no where one can justify what my dear Shia brothers had concluded earlier. I hope my points will enlighten everyone and atleast show everyone another and a true perspective and make every one realize that things are not the way they are narrated n projected by the scholars.


    5) Coming to the last point which i am sure will be a total new aspect of this incidence for my friends who so far have been blidly listening and believing deceiving scholars. That is, "was it right to prevent provision of paper n pen when Peophet SAW was sick" ?  What was the reason behind ? What was Prophet condition at the time ? I will post this separately so we can talk separately about this as it may trigger alot of responces from the brothers i know. So i will respond to queries regarding this particular part of the incidence separately.

Kind Regards

You are kind of all over the place. Initially, you didnt seem to believe this even happened and now you not only believe it happened but seen to be an expert at it.

Let's take it one at a time.

1) Does everything the Prophet say or do come from Allah?

2) Did the incident of pen & paper referred to as "Calamity of Thursday" happen or not?

 

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7 hours ago, Doctor Tareen said:

    3) Brother Shiaman said Prophet SAW kicked out Umar Farooq RA only and rest of them stayed. May be it was my brother wish but fact is every one was asked to leave the room of Prophet SAW and no one of them stayed. Just another hollow claim and building another castle on weak grounds will again not help. 

 

    The argument was between Sahaba. No one addressed to Prophet SAW but they differed on this among themselves and argument became distressing so Prophets SAW got irritated as he was already sick that day. So he asked everyone to leave. Including the group who were in favour of providing paper and pen. So please do not distort the facts here.

I owe you a reference to show that the opposers were kicked out.

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7 hours ago, Doctor Tareen said:

Shiaman

Let me write my points briefly and we analyse how you weakly you addressed each of them.

    1) It was claimed by all my friends that Prophet SAW was about to announce a successor on thrusday, that is proven false. 
    
    So lets admit that no one knows what was the intention or supposed Waseeah and let not one make false assumptions.
    

1. What is your evidence to consider the action of the prophet for announcing his successor as False? when all the historical events are proving it.

2. I do  reject completely your all assumptions and conjecture (like in this thread i have refuted your claim in the light of verses of quran that companions of the prophet saaw were one group alone but in actual they are three groups consisting of true believers, believers but going against the prophet saaw in his life and there were  muafiqeen / hypocrites in companions.)

wasalam

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9 hours ago, shiaman14 said:

You are kind of all over the place. Initially, you didnt seem to believe this even happened and now you not only believe it happened but seen to be an expert at it.

Let's take it one at a time.

1) Does everything the Prophet say or do come from Allah?

2) Did the incident of pen & paper referred to as "Calamity of Thursday" happen or not?

 

Did i ever say that i did not believe this incidence occurred ? If that was the impression you got (wrong though), then i should say it is the way i explain things in stages step by step which might caused a misunderstanding. You will not see me refusing to accept undeniable facts. But i do not share the method you and many other friends follow to look at such events. I rather look at things in more rational way, unbiased, with an open mind and heart. All i did was to go through every aspect of this report step by step. Take it as a perspective. I never expect you to believe in  everything i say but consider it, think about it, accept it if you like it, reject if you do not like it. It is your right to disagree. It remains an academic discussion.

Now i should not say, you must be searching for answers. I believe doing a good research is always helpful. I hope yourself and other people will look at all aspects i mentioned with an open heart and mind. I will wait to see if i can be proven wrong in my understanding of the events. 

Kind Regards

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8 hours ago, skyweb1987 said:

1. What is your evidence to consider the action of the prophet for announcing his successor as False? when all the historical events are proving it.

2. I do  reject completely your all assumptions and conjecture (like in this thread i have refuted your claim in the light of verses of quran that companions of the prophet saaw were one group alone but in actual they are three groups consisting of true believers, believers but going against the prophet saaw in his life and there were  muafiqeen / hypocrites in companions.)

wasalam

My friend

1) Because there is no evidence that Prophet SAW was to announce a successor. There was no announcement made. If you still want to assume that was announcement of successor, then please do so. Please refer back to Brother Shiaman answer who claimed it was Naseeah for Umar RA who did not take it and that is it. So please agree on one thing my friends first before we draw conclusions here. Shifting stances and positions help no one.

2) I asked simple question, based on your definitions, are there groups of Prophets as well ? Like Sahaba RA there are Prophets who were warned as well in Quran including Prophet SAW.  You never answered my query ? our definitions of the categories have serious flaws and the theory has no good basis.

There is one group of Sahaba only and by definition they are Momineen. Rest are what ever you call them. They are not Sahaba, or Prophets companions. 

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