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In the Name of God بسم الله
andres

Predestination

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3 hours ago, iraqi_shia said:

Im glad that you have changed your views, previously it appeared you did not believe God would punish anyone who had sinned ! 

Now at least you believe in consequences for deeds. 

Dont know why you got that impression, maybe  I did not express myself clear enough.

But let me add that eternal tourture is a punishment tptally out of proportion for someone having sinned for 50 years. And as I said earlier; in early Judaism there was no Hell, only a Sheol, were both good and bad rested in eternity. Beliefs change.

Edited by andres

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3 hours ago, iraqi_shia said:

You will have to refer to my previous answers to this same question, as I can not keep writing out the same things over and over, thanks.

Where in earlier posts did you say what Gods responsability was, if you believe he has any such? If not, just say so. 

 

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On 2/21/2018 at 4:17 AM, EdwardG said:

Iraqi, did you not say:
"We do not know anyone's fate, as we do not know the circumstances, their limitations etc. Hitler choose freely to do what he did, God did not force him to do it, he did not command him to do it, in fact he commanded him to be just and be a good person. So how is God responsible?"

Your statement:
A. We don't know anyone's fate
B. God didn't force Hitler to do the things he did
C. Therefore, it was Hitler's choice to do what he did (ie commit evil acts)

Premise B contradicts premise A, doesn't it? If we don't know anyone's fate, then how can you be so sure that Allah didn't force Hitler to do what he did?
 

As I said, we do not know his exact circumstances, so we are not able to decide his liability. I did say that, and then I said, "lets put all that aside", so we can examine the actual issue, but you have overlooked that disclaimer.

We believe that our situation is a combination of free will and determinism. So we can choose from our available options, however our available options we did not select, and therefore there maybe some mitigating circumstances etc. So we are never able to fully know the reality of someones situation and fate, only God can do that. 

Let me give you an example, lets imagine Hitler was born with a brain defect which meant that his later evil actions were unavoidable, or that his evil was due to a mental condition in which he had no control over his actions. In such a case is he liable for his actions? Only God will know how much ability he had to make informed decisions, such that we do not say "he is going to hell or heaven", we say the matter is complete with God who is just and will judge in the most just manner.

 

Quote

I agree that Hitler chose to do evil things, but I think you are missing my point. My point is simply that the Koran specifically states that Allah schemes against schemers and since Hitler was one of the best schemers, it is only reasonable to think that Allah set him up...and if Allah set him up, then wouldn't that make Allah somewhat responsible for his wickedness? After all, you don't bait a mouse trap unless you know that the mouse will go for the treat and get caught in the trap. So why WOULDN'T Allah scheme against an idolater who turned people away from the truth? What about the story of the yellow cow in the Koran? If Allah makes such commands towards the children of Israel in the Koran, what would Allah do to a scheming idolater?

 

This is very problematic.

You seem to be under the very wrong impression that God encourages bad deeds or tricks people into becoming bad. This is not the case. It is our belief that God will punish the bad deeds with bad outcomes. 

For example, one who lies becomes known as untrustworthy and loses their friends. I think your confusion stems from the negative connotation of the word "scheme" which is an unfortunate choice for the translator. Most translations have the word "plan", so for example,

the bad people plan, and God plans, and God is the best of planners. 

It means that for example pharoh or Hitler will have his plans, his aims and objectives, and God also has his aim and objectives, and God is the best at making his aims and objectives a reality. 

 

On 2/21/2018 at 7:53 AM, EdwardG said:

Inadvertently though, your quotation from the Koran raising another very interesting point; if it was certain that the Jewish people would create mischief in the land twice, then why does Allah command the Jewish people to kill themselves through Moses? If they had obeyed and had killed themselves, then that would have been the end of it. But they didn't obey and Allah didn't curse or judge them further for their disobedience of not killing themselves. But why would Allah command them to do something that would hinder their ability to make mischief in the land twice as Muhammad prophesied?

That just doesn't make any sense.

It is just a figurative method to highlight a point. The Jews thought that as they were chosen once, they were permanently special and they could do no wrong. They were mistaken. 

For example in the Quran we find Prophet Abraham AS saying to ask an idol about who damaged another idol. Its not supposed to be taken literally, its just a means of highlighting his point that idols are powerless, yet they bow to them, but they cant even look after themselves or answer a question. 

 

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On 2/21/2018 at 9:50 AM, andres said:

God created everything. A creator always has a responsability. If the creator knows the effects of his creation, he is even more responsible. I think Muslims will agree to this when it comes to humans. When it comes to God Muslims say, God has no responsability for his creation, because we all have a free will. Muslims believe God knows exactly what will happen, but how can this relieve God from all responsability? Was it necessary to create the loosers that God knew He would have to send to the eternal fire? Had God no possibility to make the future happy for us all? 

 

I have answered this twice already, but third time lucky, I will try and simplify it further.

Did God create everything and then say, what ever happens, it doesn't matter, the oppressed will be oppressed and there are no consequences, did God do that? If He did that, then He would be unjust.

Did God say, I making a world without any challenges or tests, just a utopia of heaven? Did God say that about this life? No.

So we realise that this life, there will be challenges, tests, and God will judge and ensure that every injustice we have experienced in this life will be accounted for. 

So in that way his "responsibility" is to judge, not to ensure its not possible for anything to experience any negative actions. 

Does this make sense now?

 

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1 hour ago, iraqi_shia said:

I have answered this twice already, but third time lucky, I will try and simplify it further.

Did God create everything and then say, what ever happens, it doesn't matter, the oppressed will be oppressed and there are no consequences, did God do that? If He did that, then He would be unjust.

Did God say, I making a world without any challenges or tests, just a utopia of heaven? Did God say that about this life? No.

So we realise that this life, there will be challenges, tests, and God will judge and ensure that every injustice we have experienced in this life will be accounted for. 

So in that way his "responsibility" is to judge, not to ensure its not possible for anything to experience any negative actions. 

Does this make sense now?

 

So Gods responsibility is to judge his creation. Unlike us humans he is not responsible for how his own creations will act, not even if he knows the future. 

No, it does not make sense to me. But I understand that if this is what you believe is what the Quran says, human logic does not matter.

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On 2/22/2018 at 2:15 PM, iraqi_shia said:

We believe that our situation is a combination of free will and determinism. So we can choose from our available options, however our available options we did not select, and therefore there may be some mitigating circumstances etc...lets imagine Hitler was born with a brain defect... his evil was due to a mental condition in which he had no control over his actions. In such a case is he liable for his actions? Only God will know...

The bad people plan, and God plans, and God is the best of planners. It means that for example pharaoh or Hitler will have his plans, his aims and objectives, and God also has his aim and objectives, and God is the best at making his aims and objectives a reality.

It is just a figurative method (the yellow cow incident) to highlight a point. The Jews thought that as they were chosen once, they were permanently special and they could do no wrong. They were mistaken. For example in the Quran we find Prophet Abraham AS saying to ask an idol about who damaged another idol. Its not supposed to be taken literally, its just a means of highlighting his point that idols are powerless, yet they bow to them, but they cant even look after themselves or answer a question.

Ok, let's say that in our world, we do have a combination of free will and determinism; you mentioned mental conditions earlier and used them as an example of "mitigating circumstances." But who or what is responsible for these "mitigating circumstances"? You can't expect me to believe that mental conditions are purely transmitted by humans like a cough or AIDS because that isn't scientific. I think you and I may need to define more clearly what exactly a mental condition is because some people do think that mental conditions are caused by someone's beliefs or religion but while that might be true sometimes, that isn't always the case as most psychiatric disorders are biological in nature, inherited from parents in the genes, or are a result of some kind of trauma, psychological or otherwise and are not related to beliefs or religion at all.

So we need to clarify what exactly we mean by mental condition and you need to identify what exactly is the cause of the existence of mitigating circumstances.

With regards to "plan" and "planning", let's be fair; as I understand from the Koran, the arabic word "plan" can also mean "scheme" depending on the context. Even if you looked at the context as it relates to Allah being the best of planners, you would still be fair in using the word "scheme". Think about it; if Hitler has plans, then Allah will also have plans to counter those plans, yes? But of course, and since Allah is the best at winning, then it follows that Allah and Hitler are actually engaged in a kind of spiritual game of chess. So if you're going to win, you have to scheme--and even in chess, the best of checkmates happen when traps are laid for the opponent to walk into. That's fair to assume, isn't it? But of course! Even Allah commands his followers to strive, struggle, and win against non-believers and of course, to struggle with them the "right" way, that is, to maintain a struggle that does not violate the laws of the land that the two sides are residing in.

That sounds awfully similar to a game of chess if you ask me.

Finally, how do you decide what is a literary device and what is not? I could equally assume that since Muhammad (logically) cannot fly and that goats don't inhabit space, then his dreams are just a great compilation of literary devices with spiritual significance and never literally happened. What about all of the other visions of Muhammad? Are they allegory? Which ones are literary devices, allegory, and literal? Unfortunately, allegory and symbolism is prohibited by Muhammad as he forbade the usage of symbols in Islam, so is using literary devices blasphemy against Allah since it is a representation of a concept, idea, or symbol of Islam?

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On 2018-02-23 at 6:59 PM, Ashvazdanghe said:

Life is about choice

 

Merits of having a choice

 

Unity of deeds

Humans are agents of God

2 hours of Videos. Too long, sorry. Ys there a sequence where he toiches the problem of how human can have a free will if God already knows the future in every detail?

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13 hours ago, andres said:

2 hours of Videos. Too long, sorry. Ys there a sequence where he toiches the problem of how human can have a free will if God already knows the future in every detail?

Hi if you can provide a figure of God in flesh & blood then you can analyze it in your logic that he is responsible for your claim ,which he knows our future so he leads us to our best by tools that we even not notice it may be a bad incident in our life in our future leads us to a better position than now if you read about successful people thay had more misery & misfortunes in their life than normal that it leads to their current high position.

 

Imam Ali (as) describes God (Allah)

 

 

Atheism evrywhere

https://youtu.be/h7TFblP9Y9c

 

 

Edited by Ashvazdanghe

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48 minutes ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Hi if you can provide a figure of God in flesh & blood then you can analyze it in your logic that he is responsible for your claim ,which he knows our future so he leads us to our best by tools that we even not notice it may be a bad incident in our life in our future leads us to a better position than now if you read about successful people thay had more misery & misfortunes in their life than normal that it leads to their current high position.

 

Imam Ali (as) describes God (Allah)

 

 

Atheism evrywhere

https://youtu.be/h7TFblP9Y9c

 

 

More videos! You dont (want to?) understand the paradox that free will versus predestination means.

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9 minutes ago, andres said:

More videos! You dont (want to?) understand the paradox that free will versus predestination means.

I can’t find a major difference between these two issues from shia Islamic point of view.

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8 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

I can’t find a major difference between these two issues from shia Islamic point of view.

Of course not. There ought not to be any paradoxes within a perfect religion. But you could use your own intellect.

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40 minutes ago, andres said:

Of course not. There ought not to be any paradoxes within a perfect religion. But you could use your own intellect.

Hi I use my intellect but christians & Jewis always try to limit God to their degree of their bounded intellect but he is unbounded that causes paradox .

Edited by Ashvazdanghe

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2 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Hi I use my intellect but christians & Jewis always try to limit God to their degree of their bounded intellect but he is unbounded that causes paradox .

Are you saying that Muslims do not limit God to their degree of their intellect? 

What about Sunnies, Wahabis and Biko Haram?

Most Christians (at least officially) believe God and Jesus is one. I am pretty certain your logic tells you this is a paradox. (Jesus dead 3 days, God alive?)  Does your intellect limit God?

 

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7 minutes ago, andres said:

Are you saying that Muslims do not limit God to their degree of their intellect? 

What about Sunnies, Wahabis and Biko Haram?

Most Christians (at least officially) believe God and Jesus is one. I am pretty certain your logic tells you this is a paradox. (Jesus dead 3 days, God alive?)  Does your intellect limit God?

 

no, I say it from shia islam view not them.

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On 2/23/2018 at 10:21 AM, EdwardG said:

Ok, let's say that in our world, we do have a combination of free will and determinism; you mentioned mental conditions earlier and used them as an example of "mitigating circumstances." But who or what is responsible for these "mitigating circumstances"? You can't expect me to believe that mental conditions are purely transmitted by humans like a cough or AIDS because that isn't scientific. I think you and I may need to define more clearly what exactly a mental condition is because some people do think that mental conditions are caused by someone's beliefs or religion but while that might be true sometimes, that isn't always the case as most psychiatric disorders are biological in nature, inherited from parents in the genes, or are a result of some kind of trauma, psychological or otherwise and are not related to beliefs or religion at all.

So we need to clarify what exactly we mean by mental condition and you need to identify what exactly is the cause of the existence of mitigating circumstances.

 

I think you have really misunderstood. Let me simplify it further.

You are responsible for your informed choices, that's it. What you have no choice over, or not informed about, then you are not.

If that doesnt make sense to you, then I cant help any further, and you probably wont be responsible for not knowing :)

The rest of your comment was unfortunately too full of assumptions and therefore false conclusions to warrant a reply at this time. If I get time I will deconstruct it for you. 

 

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On 10/02/2018 at 4:53 PM, Quisant said:

 

The Imam is wrong, "Free will" cannot be "partial". By definition one's "will" is either "free" or controlled. No half-position exists for this concept. 

What Andres asked is a good question, pity you dismiss it so quickly.

All Islamic scholars (Shia included) accept the Law of Causality, also known as the Principle of Sufficient Reason: everything that exists exists for a reason and that reason is God.
If everything that exists has a ‘reason’ for its existence and the source of that reason is ‘random chance’ then you do have some free will.

But if the source of that ‘reason’ is God then you have no free will.

There is a difference between knowing and causing. God gives us free will in order to let us choose good or bad by ourselves.

However, would God be all-knowing and all-powerful if he didn't know our futures?

The reason why he lets us live out our lives instead of just telling us would be to give us no excuse. Think about it - if we did not live out our lives and God just told us that we "would have" killed, would everyone accept that?

No. people would say something along the lines of "No! We would not have done that!" and would have rejected.

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On 2/26/2018 at 10:52 AM, andres said:

Are you saying that Muslims do not limit God to their degree of their intellect? 

What about Sunnies, Wahabis and Biko Haram?

Most Christians (at least officially) believe God and Jesus is one. I am pretty certain your logic tells you this is a paradox. (Jesus dead 3 days, God alive?)  Does your intellect limit God?

 

Limiting God would be defining Him.

To say God is X and Y which are divergent entities is to divide Him and make Him two (or three), this is polytheism. 

Eg If I said God is twice as merciful as me, that would be defining Him and limiting Him, we do not accept this. When we say God is the most merciful, we do not say that in the sense we know what most merciful is, we say that to deny its opposite. So we do not know how merciful God actually is, but that He is the most merciful. 

As for saying God is in parts or pieces or personalities or places this is polytheism by definition. 

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11 hours ago, iraqi_shia said:

Limiting God would be defining Him.

To say God is X and Y which are divergent entities is to divide Him and make Him two (or three), this is polytheism. 

Eg If I said God is twice as merciful as me, that would be defining Him and limiting Him, we do not accept this. When we say God is the most merciful, we do not say that in the sense we know what most merciful is, we say that to deny its opposite. So we do not know how merciful God actually is, but that He is the most merciful. 

As for saying God is in parts or pieces or personalities or places this is polytheism by definition. 

A:  God can reveal himself as Jesus, God and the Holy Spirit in NY, Jerusalem and Beijing. Simultaneously. Call it polytheism if you like.

B: God can give a Human a free will even if God from the creation knew/decided his final verdict

C: God can create a stone so heavy that He cant lift it.

 

In my opinion only A is possible. Not saying this is so, My understanding of God is not complete.

Had B been possible, our God is a cruel and cynical God.  

C is like B, a paradox. 

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9 hours ago, andres said:

A:  God can reveal himself as Jesus, God and the Holy Spirit in NY, Jerusalem and Beijing. Simultaneously. Call it polytheism if you like.

B: God can give a Human a free will even if God from the creation knew/decided his final verdict

C: God can create a stone so heavy that He cant lift it.

 

In my opinion only A is possible. Not saying this is so, My understanding of God is not complete.

Had B been possible, our God is a cruel and cynical God.  

C is like B, a paradox. 

A: God is unseen, the bible and Quran confirm this. Whatever you see is not God. Seeing something is measuring, measuring is limiting. God is not limited by creation.

If you say that one thing in one place is God, and then something in some other place is God, then there are two Gods. That is polytheism. 

B Yes, God can give us freedom to choose and we are responsible for our choices and God knows our choices even before we make them. 

C You are asking God to make a stone that does not exist. Thee is no such stone, and therefore there is nothing to be done. Its like me saying can God make a square circle. There is no such thing as a square circle. 

Your analysis is flawed. 

A is not possible. God is one, and not in parts. You can not say one is the same as three. Its logically false. Anyone who says one is the same as two or three has to be ignored.

B is possible. God is not cruel, God is Just. Those that choose to sin will be punished. Those that choose good deeds will be rewarded. Where is the cruelty or cynical God you guessed at?

C is not a paradox but rather a play on words. It leads to virtual concept that can not exist in reality. Like I said, it would be like me saying "Can God make the colour red the same as black? " Its not a matter of power or ability, but rather the request is not something that can exist. 

 

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Hi Iraqi-Shia

So in your opinion God can not exist simultaneously in three places. Can He not speak to Putin and Trump simultaneously in Russian and English even if they are on different continents? If not, God is not very almighty. 

Is it OK to create a person that you know will end up in the eternal fire?  We will never agree on this. Nor will we agree that a person whose destiny is predestined can have a free will. It is a paradox. So is the "stone" example, at leas we agree here.

 

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8 hours ago, andres said:

Hi Iraqi-Shia

So in your opinion God can not exist simultaneously in three places. Can He not speak to Putin and Trump simultaneously in Russian and English even if they are on different continents? If not, God is not very almighty. 

Is it OK to create a person that you know will end up in the eternal fire?  We will never agree on this. Nor will we agree that a person whose destiny is predestined can have a free will. It is a paradox. So is the "stone" example, at leas we agree here.

 

Hi he can be simultaneously in every place , Every time talk to them with signs not directly ,only selected pious men/women such as prophet can be directly talk to him ,which everybody is his creation so he can make inspiration to them or who is around them but they don't want to understand.

Every person predestiny is not going to Hell

Hadith n. 456

456. Amir al-mu'minin, peace be upon him, said: Is there no free man who can leave this chewed morsel (of the world) to those who like it? Certainly, the only price for yourselves is Paradise. Therefore, do not sell yourself except for Paradise.

456. وقال عليه السلام : أَلاَ حُرٌّ يَدَعُ هذِهِ اللُّمَاظَةَ لاِهْلِهَا؟ إِنَّهُ لَيْسَ لاِنْفُسِكُمْ ثَمَنٌ إِلاَّ الْجَنَّةَ، فَلاَ تَبِيعُوهَا إِلاَّ بِهَا.

https://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-2-letters-and-sayings/selections-sayings-and-preaching-amir-al-muminin-ali#hadith-n-56

so our first destination is not be doomed & go to Hell but our actions & deeds change our destiny

 

 

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42 minutes ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Every person predestiny is not going to Hell

Of course, but if God created individuals He knew would end up in eternal fire and torture,  why did He? An awful thing to do. Would you really do something similar if you could?  

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57 minutes ago, andres said:

Of course, but if God created individuals He knew would end up in eternal fire and torture,  why did He? An awful thing to do. Would you really do something similar if you could?  

Yes ,Evrything that we made has a guide book & Warning label ,if you broke it by not mentioning warning do you  say it  was predesignated to broken ?:egg:

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17 minutes ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Yes ,Evrything that we made has a guide book & Warning label ,if you broke it by not mentioning warning do you  say it  was predesignated to broken ?:egg:

If you make a ladder you know will brake as soon as a person climbs it, it is not predestined to break? And if you forbade your child not to climb it, would you not be partly responsible if he did? And if you had the ability to see in the future that he would disobey and get killed, had you still made the ladder? In civilised nations, you can be held responsible for products that cause damage or injuries. Very much so, if you knew they would. 

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12 hours ago, andres said:

Hi Iraqi-Shia

So in your opinion God can not exist simultaneously in three places. Can He not speak to Putin and Trump simultaneously in Russian and English even if they are on different continents? If not, God is not very almighty. 

 

 

Hang on, you are talking about actions, eg talking or making someone hear. This is not the same as God himself. God can make anyone hear anything any time. 

God himself existed before there was "place", so how can he be referenced by place?

God is everywhere but not inside or up or down, he is not in one place or another, he is not limited by location.

 

Quote

Is it OK to create a person that you know will end up in the eternal fire?  We will never agree on this. Nor will we agree that a person whose destiny is predestined can have a free will. It is a paradox. So is the "stone" example, at leas we agree here.

Yes, if they have free will , and they choose to use it for evil, then should they not be punished? Would an all knowing God know that before they even existed? Yes. Does that mean he should not have created him? No. As the person is responsible for their actions, and this world is not created to be a utopia, but a test. 

As I mentioned 3 times, this world is not supposed to be free of suffering. In any test there are difficult moments, challenges. Those that prepare and handle the challenges are rewarded. Those that choose not to prepare and ruin themselves are going to receive justice. 

As for the "Paradox". I have already explained it several times,

I explained the stone issue for you. Let me explain in another way.

Imagine you are holding a bag of different colour sweets. The bag is opaque, so you cant see inside. You reach in and grab a sweet, before you remove it from the bag, I tell you its a red sweet. You look, and its a red sweet. You say, "how did you know", I say, could you not have chosen any sweet? and you will say yes. You then do it again, and I correctly inform you before your hand leaves the bag that the sweet in your hand is green.

The reason I knew is that the bag was made from a type of plastic that is opaque to the human eye, but transparent with special glasses on. So I could see your hand moving towards the sweet. Now this is just an example to help you understand.

Did you have free will to choose which sweet to grab? You did. 

Did you I know what you choose? Yes I did.

God has the ability to know before you were even created what you will do. Does that mean He is forcing you to pick a certain sweet or to do something? No, we are not forced, we are choosing as we go along. 

 

 

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Related image

A class action lawsuit has been filled, against NASA (The Creator) by Mars Rover(s) [(NASA's Creation)]. Currently on Marschat, the is a discussion on future of NASA and all the Mars Rovers are insisting that NASA is irrelevant and they can decide what to do( hangout at nice sandy mars beaches and have all nights parties.  These guys are planning a coup det'at.

their slogan: We are free, we do not recognize any authority or are responsible for our actions. 

A. LLC the law firm representing the rovers, has advised them not to try to deny their Creator, as they can't really do that based on evidence.

So, a new strategy is been utilized - Stay Focus on the Attributes/exploit it as much as you can and brand it.  No matter what happens always keep the focus away from your own responsibility, accountability or any thing dealing with your own actions.

Just deflect/blame the Creator and maybe we can create doubt in the minds and we might get a hung jury-

NASA is to be blamed for all,

Here on Earth, NASA lawyers are planing to introduce - that these rovers are delusional as they have no clue who NASA is or how it operates. These Rovers have created an alternative reality - 'Created NASA" which they think/operates like them. 

( Just trying to refocus on Reality)

 

 

Edited by S.M.H.A.

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1 hour ago, iraqi_shia said:

Imagine you are holding a bag of different colour sweets. The bag is opaque, so you cant see inside. You reach in and grab a sweet, before you remove it from the bag, I tell you its a red sweet. You look, and its a red sweet. You say, "how did you know", I say, could you not have chosen any sweet? and you will say yes. You then do it again, and I correctly inform you before your hand leaves the bag that the sweet in your hand is green.

The reason I knew is that the bag was made from a type of plastic that is opaque to the human eye, but transparent with special glasses on. So I could see your hand moving towards the sweet. Now this is just an example to help you understand.

Did you have free will to choose which sweet to grab? You did. 

Did you I know what you choose? Yes I did.

 

 

 I had the free choise to grab the one I choose, but I had not the choise to decide color. You saw which color I chose, but thats not a prediction. Had you said before the hand was in the bag you had had 50% of being right. The paradoxes of the stone and the fre will versus prediction have nothing to do with this

1 hour ago, iraqi_shia said:

Hang on, you are talking about actions, eg talking or making someone hear. This is not the same as God himself. God can make anyone hear anything any time. 

God himself existed before there was "place", so how can he be referenced by place?

God is everywhere but not inside or up or down, he is not in one place or another, he is not limited by location.

 

Yes, if they have free will , and they choose to use it for evil, then should they not be punished? Would an all knowing God know that before they even existed? Yes. Does that mean he should not have created him? No. As the person is responsible for their actions, and this world is not created to be a utopia, but a test. 

But is God not responsible for having created him? And if God knew that his created being would not stand the test and end up in Hell, is God still totally without responsability.

  If God can predict everything, there is no way you can choose other than God predicted. And if you have got free will to do otherwise, then God cannot predict everything. 

As a creator, with or without ability to predict every little detail, God has a responsability like every other creator.  

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14 minutes ago, andres said:

 I had the free choise to grab the one I choose, but I had not the choise to decide color. You saw which color I chose, but thats not a prediction. Had you said before the hand was in the bag you had had 50% of being right. The paradoxes of the stone and the fre will versus prediction have nothing to do with this

Its an example, to illustrate the point.

The point being, you can freely choose something, and another can know without there being a contradiction.

Im trying to show you that if someone knew everything, you can still have free will. 

So when you choose a sweet from the bag, even if you looked into the bag and can see the colours, but you think I cant see the seem, and you freely choose the red one, I can tell you its red before it leaves the bag.

Now you can imagine God can have more power than that, and more knowledge, do you understand now?

19 minutes ago, andres said:

But is God not responsible for having created him?

 

If God created someone who could only sin, and then punished him for sinning, that is not just. We are not claiming that. Everyone who is punished, will be done so based on their informed choices. So God is not responsible for that persons sins. 

Quote

And if God knew that his created being would not stand the test and end up in Hell, is God still totally without responsibility.

You mention a different point now.

This is the case that the person has free will, and that with that free will, they will fail, therefore should God have made him?

We have a statement in the Quran :

7|172|And when Your Lord summoned the descendants of Adam, and made them testify about themselves. “Am I not your Lord?” They said, “Yes, we testify.” Thus you cannot say on the Day of Resurrection, “We were unaware of this.”

Those who are born have some ability to recognise God and His path, not in equal measure, but in some form. Our Imams, who are our leaders in faith have explained this in the following way : 

H 1458, CH 4, h 4 Ali ibn Ibrahim has narrated from his father from ibn abu ‘Umayr from ‘Udhayna from Zurara from abu Ja’far, recipient of divine supreme covenant, who has said the following: “I asked him, recipient of divine supreme covenant, about the words of Allah, the Majestic, the Glorious, ‘They are humble before Allah and they do not consider anything as partners of Allah.’ The Imam said, ‘Humbleness comes from the nature with which Allah has created all people and there is no change in the creation of Allah.’ The Imam also said, ‘He created them with the ability to know Him.’ Zurara has said, ‘I then asked him about the words of Allah, the Majestic, the Glorious: “(Consider), when your Lord took from the backs of the children of Adam all of their offspring. He asked them to bear a testimony. (Testimony to the fact that) when He asked them all, ‘Am I not your Lord?’ They all said, ‘Yes, You are our Lord.’” (7:172) The Imam said, “This happened when Allah took all descendents of Adam – who were to be born to the Day of Judgment – out from his back. They all came out in the form of small particles. He then introduced and showed Himself to them. Had this not happened no one could know his Lord.” The Imam said, “The Messenger of Allah has said, ‘Every newborn is born with the nature (to believe in Allah).’ It means (He created them) with knowledge that Allah, the Majestic, the Glorious, is his/her Creator and so is His words, ‘When you ask them, “Who has created the heavens and the earth?” They will certainly say, ‘Allah has created them.’”’” (31:25) Ali ibn Ibrahim has narrated from his father from ibn Faddal from abu Jamila from Muhammad al-Halabi from abu ‘Abd Allah, recipient of divine supreme covenant, who has said the following: “About the words of Allah, the Majestic, the Glorious, ‘. . . the creation of Allah (had a certain) nature with which He created all people. . . .’ (30:30), the Imam said, ‘He has created them with belief in Oneness of Allah in their nature.’”

Therefore everyone has a "chance to win", and if someone messes it up, it is their fault and they deserve punishment. 

God does not say, I will just make people who deserve punishment, or just make those who deserve reward, God divine nature means He has made all, and judges them accordingly based on their choices and limitations in a way only He can do.

 

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37 minutes ago, andres said:

As a creator, with or without ability to predict every little detail, God has a responsability like every other creator.  

When God created Adam they said why you create him when his child’s will fight each other & shed blood on earth he said I know something that you don’t know.

وَإِذْ قَالَ رَبُّكَ لِلْمَلَائِكَةِ إِنِّي جَاعِلٌ فِي الْأَرْضِ خَلِيفَةً ۖ قَالُوا أَتَجْعَلُ فِيهَا مَن يُفْسِدُ فِيهَا وَيَسْفِكُ الدِّمَاءَ وَنَحْنُ نُسَبِّحُ بِحَمْدِكَ وَنُقَدِّسُ لَكَ ۖ قَالَ إِنِّي أَعْلَمُ مَا لَا تَعْلَمُونَ ﴿٣٠

And when your Lord said to the angels, I am going to place in the earth a khalif, they said: What! wilt Thou place in it such as shall make mischief in it and shed blood, and we celebrate Thy praise and extol Thy holiness? He said: Surely I know what you do not know. (30) And He taught Adam all the names, then presented them to the angels; then He said: Tell me the names of those if you are right. (31) They said: Glory be to Thee! we have no knowledge but that which Thou hast taught us; surely Thou art the Knowing, the Wise. (32) He said: O Adam! inform them of their names. Then when he had informed them of their names, He said: Did I not say to you that I surely know what is ghaib in the heavens and the earth and (that) I know what you manifest and what you hide?(33) And when We said to the angels: Make obeisance to.......

.........And We said: O Adam! Dwell you and your wife in the garden and eat from it a plenteous (food) wherever you wish and do not approach this tree, for then you will be of the unjust. (35) But the Shaitan made them both fall from it, and caused them to depart from that (state) in which they were; and We said: Get forth, some of you being the enemies of others, and there is for you in the earth an abode and a provision for a time. (36) Then Adam received (some) words from his Lord, so He turned to him mercifully; surely He is Oft-returning (to mercy), the Merciful. (37)

http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.shakir/2:30

 

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6 hours ago, iraqi_shia said:

Therefore everyone has a "chance to win", and if someone messes it up, it is their fault and they deserve punishment. 

Have all got this chanse?  If God can predict everything, there is no way you can choose other than God predicted. And here comes the paradox: But if you have got free will to do otherwise, then God cannot predict everything. 

I do not think it is possible for you to understand what I mean by this being a paradox as long ad the Quran say it is not. Muslims are far behind Christians in realising that the Quran and the Bible was written for a contemporary audience and must be understood as such. Today we know that Ants in Israel cannot speak, and that they do know who Netanhahu is and who Saul was. We also know it does not help to give a horse wings, it still wont fly. You say you believe this is true, because the Quran say so. I have got my doubts that you all are so certain.

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On 2/21/2018 at 7:30 PM, Quisant said:

 In your earlier post you accuse me of 'have fallen into error twice' and now you declare  'it is not time worthy or relevant to discuss it any further as it will move us away from the main subject at hand'.  
You are hiding behind words, which errors have I fallen into? What is the point of saying I am wrong if you cannot show me where I am wrong?

 

There is a divide between which philosophers? Can you name a few and include a link?
 

If it does not take much effort to prove why don't you do so in your own words instead of referring me to a wall of words?

 

Salaam,

I apologize for the lateness of my reply, I haven't been able to sit down and write for the past week due to obligations at home.

As for your first and second questions, I can show you where you are wrong and I believe the excerpts i posted, show the Shia view of predestination and free will in Islamic Metaphysics in accordance to the narration that was mentioned by the brother, and secondly I already said to you " that you superimposed your own understanding on a single sentence".

With regards to your second question, if you are genuinely interested you will find this topic being discussed by Rene Descartes, It is known among students of philosophy that the separation was not the common held view irregardless of its validity or invalidity (I have notes on it, when i get a hold of them I will update this post God willing), as for a link, I leave it to you and whatever effort you can put in pursuit of this subject, there are many Professors of Philosophy that one could email, who reply relatively quickly and could possibly provide you with books to read.

As for your third statement, if I refer you to a wall of words, it is not to hide behind them, but rather I am simply referring you to articles by authorities in the fields of Philosophy and Metaphysics, in order for you to see what has been written on the topic of hand, and for the sake of expediency.

I am not here to argue or have a war of words with you, you are free to believe that which you have attained certainty in, all I was saying was that do not rush to impose your understanding of a hadith, and say "the Imam [a.s] is wrong", or to quote Sufi poetry on a subject that divided theologians in the Islamic world, it is not as simple as was put and any argument put forth has to be put forth correctly.

A Sufi poem is not a 'hujjah' is not evidence, not to mention that there is controversy surrounding Omar al-Khayyam and also tha there are some who say that those poems do not belong to him, and for those that say they do, you have to take into account which school of theology he ascribed to and what they/he believed, and lastly that his views are irrelevant when it comes to the Shia since we differ with our Sunni brothers on the subject of predestination & free will.

I wish you the best of luck with your pursuit of truth.



 

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