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In the Name of God بسم الله

Predestination

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18 hours ago, EdwardG said:

So how can you say that it was entirely Hitler's choice to be deceived if Allah made a scheme against him and Hitler became deceived as a result?
 

 

Where did I say that?

What I said was :

Quote

We do not know anyone's fate, as we do not know the circumstances, their limitations etc.

Hence things that people did not choose, they are not questioned on. However, I put that aside for the purpose of the example.

18 hours ago, EdwardG said:

Wouldn't Allah be responsible for misleading Hitler if that were the case?

Did Allah say be just to the people, dont commit crimes in the land? He did that via the prophets. Allah did not mislead Hitler, Hitler chose to reject the guidance.

18 hours ago, EdwardG said:

So how can you say that it was entirely Hitler's choice to be deceived if Allah made a scheme against him and Hitler became deceived as a result?

Your order of events is wrong. Hitler chose to be wrong, people who do wrong ultimately get destroyed. It is not as you guessed, that Hitler was just a nice guy innocently minding his own business and then Allah tricked him into being a really bad guy. No one believes such things.

18 hours ago, EdwardG said:

Wouldn't Allah be responsible for misleading Hitler if that were the case?

If Allah forced someone or tricked someone into being bad, then the person would be innocent.

However we do not believe in such things, we believe God does question us on things we did not or could not chose. Like I said, we believe in free will, but it is not absolutely unconditional, and I have already explained the limits.  

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10 hours ago, andres said:

Your answer produces more questions. If God needed to replace some verses due to changed conditions during Muhammeds short lifetime, is it not time for an entirely new Quran today? Much have changed and Muslims no longer agree on how to understand the Quran. All claiming that the Quran is Gods infallible word, with no human influence. 

Andres, 

Yes, the conditions changed in the past and the people had not been properly educated on the principles of religion such that they could know what to do in these new situations. One of the criteria of Islam is that every principle has now been established, both in the Quran and the sunnah as taught by his infallible successors. 

 

12|111|In their stories is a lesson for those who possess intelligence. This is not a fabricated tale, but a confirmation of what came before it, and a detailed explanation of all things, and guidance, and mercy for people who believe.

16|89|On the Day when We raise in every community a witness against them, from among them, and bring you as a witness against these. We have revealed to you the Book, as an explanation of all things, and guidance, and mercy and good news for those who submit.

H 187, Ch. 20, h 10
A number of our people has narrated from Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn Khalid from ‘Isma’il ibn Mihran from Sayf ibn ‘Umayra from abu al-Maghra from Sama‘a from abu al-Hassan Musa (a.s.) who has said the following. “I asked the Imam, ‘Is everything in the book of Allah and the Sunnah of His messenger or you have a say in it?’ The Imam replied, “As a matter of fact, everything is in the book of Allah and the Sunnah of His messenger (s.a.)’”

H 183, Ch. 20, h 6
Muhammad ibn Yahya has narrated from Ahmad ibn Muhammad from ibn Faddal from Al- Thaqafi‘laba ibn Maymun from one he narrated from al-Mu‘alla ibn Khunays who has said the following. “Abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.) has said, ‘There is no issue which would be disputed between two people but that there is a principle for it the book of Allah, the Most Majestic, the Most Glorious, only the man’s power of Intelligence is not able to reach it.’”

 

As we now have a complete system our scholars are able to apply the rules which we were given from God and apply them to what ever situation we are given, we call these rules "fiqh".

Our leading scholars are available for questions and produce guidance to help the Muslims know the law for their situation.

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10 hours ago, andres said:

 Gehenna (Hell) was a valley outside Jerusalem where Kings of Juda sacrificed Children in fire to the Gods. When Jesus say those that will not enter heaven will end up there, does he mean litterally that they will be tortured there in eternity for their sins? I dont believe so. The poor innocent childrens pain was short. 

But what about the point I raised?

 

On 2/18/2018 at 9:42 PM, iraqi_shia said:

So you dont believe in punishment for evil? If that is the case everything is meaningless, God created everything without consequence, the good and the bad are all the same. The one who hated Jesus son of Mary and the ones who loved him are all the same.

 

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10 hours ago, andres said:

If God knew what Hitler would do when He created him, how can God be innocent? 

If Airbus builds an Airoplane that crashes on its first flight due to bad construction and kills 100 passengers, who is responsible? Airbus, the pilot or the passengers?

I say the passengers cannot be. The Pilot would be if he knew there could be a danger. Airbus factory certainly is responsible. If they knew they sold a plane that was not correct constructed, they would even be criminal. If God knee what Hitler would do, God as the creator would also be responsible for his actions.

Airbus are building that planes are not supposed to crash. Is God trying to make a universe where there is no test? Is God trying to make a universe of no consequences?

God made everything, and knew exactly what would happen before anything ever existed. He also knew that if a being has free will, they will have to answer for what they chose to do. 

God did not intend to make a utopia here, this is not heaven. This is the test, this is not supposed to be easy or clean or without difficulty. I already explained this :

On 2/18/2018 at 9:42 PM, iraqi_shia said:

You seem to be under the false premise that God has made this universe for fun and a jolly up. 

21|16|We did not create the sky and the earth and what is between them for amusement.

2|155|We will certainly test you with some fear and hunger, and some loss of possessions and lives and crops. But give good news to the steadfast.

This life is a test, a test which has consequences. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, iraqi_shia said:

Andres, 

Yes, the conditions changed in the past and the people had not been properly educated on the principles of religion such that they could know what to do in these new situations. One of the criteria of Islam is that every principle has now been established, both in the Quran and the sunnah as taught by his infallible successors. 

As we now have a complete system our scholars are able to apply the rules which we were given from God and apply them to what ever situation we are given, we call these rules "fiqh".

Our leading scholars are available for questions and produce guidance to help the Muslims know the law for their situation.

I am not certain all Muslims agree on who the infallible successors are. Nor do they agree on how to understand the Quran. Still they all believe it is Gods infallible word, not influenced by human. Islam needs a reformation like Christianity has had. It would solve many problems beween the Muslim nations.

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In the name of God,

There have been a lot of posts, i haven't been able to go through them all as of yet.
A good explanation of free will has been given by the late Frithjof Schuon, in his book, 'Understanding Islam' in which he says:

The idea of predestination, so strongly marked in Islam does not do away with the idea of freedom. Man is subject to predestination because he is not God, but he is free because he is made 'in the image of God.', God alone is absolute freedom, but human freedom, despite its relativity - in the sense that it is relatively absolute - is not something other than freedom any more than a feeble light is something other than light. To deny predestination would amount to maintaining that God does not know events "in advance" and so is not omniscient: quod absit.

Short but benificial video (although i'm not a fan of sharing videos):
 


I am limited by time, this subject requires a lot of writing especially since you have brought up so many points that can be addressed God willing.
So little by little as i read more through each page i will be taking note of your questions inshAllah, i look forward to your reply on your status  as well.
Please share with us the verses of the bible that refer to free will and predestination, and the problem of evil so that we can also have a better understanding of your own view as well although i know verses related to this subject, but it would be good to see them from you as well and to hear your take on them God willing.

And All praise belongs to God, the All-Seeing, the All-Knowing, Lord of the heavens and the earth.

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In the Name of God,

It is a long read, but you must be patient for your questions, are very profound and cannot be answered so simply, nor can they be explained even through one article. They require much time and study, God willing this will be of use.


On Freedom and Neccesity by M. Ali Lakhani:

It  is  said  that  ‘Ali  ibn  Abi  Talib,  the  son-in-law  of  the  Holy  Prophet  of  
Islam, was once asked whether human beings possessed freedom or
whether  they  were  bound  by  the  laws  of  necessity.  According  to  the  
story, he responded by asking the questioner to raise one foot off the
ground. When he had done so, Imam ‘Ali responded, “So it seems you have
free will.” Then he continued, “Now, while you remain standing on one
foot, also raise your other foot off the ground.” “But this is impossible,”
responded the questioner. The Imam explained, “So it appears there are
also limits to your freedom.”

The  Imam’s  illustration  is  at  one  level  a  reflection  of  a  basic  truth  
about  the  human  condition—that  we  are  finite  beings  possessing  a  
limited freedom—but at another it invites the questioner to probe for
a deeper solution to the dilemma of human limitations. The solution is
addressed by the Sufi, Bayazid al-Bistami, who, also using the analogy of
the human foot, states, “All that exists is gained in two steps: by lifting up
the foot from self-interest and setting it down on the commandments of
God.” Bayazid’s prescription hints at an intrinsic metaphysical unity in
which the outwardly opposing elements of freedom and necessity are
inwardly reconciled by locating the source of freedom on a different
plane—an inward plane that is not subject to the outward limitations of
existence. Whosoever has accepted his limitations is free. As the Talmud
states, the one who is rich is “he who rejoices in his portion.” This is a
truth that finds expression within all faith traditions: it is central to the
concepts of dharma in Hinduism, karma in Buddhism, tao in Taoism,
and  submission  to  the  Divine  Will  in  the  three  major  monotheistic  
faith traditions (in fact, it is one of the meanings signified by the very
word islam).In  the  Supreme  Reality  that  we  term  ‘God’,  there  is  no  distinction  
between  necessity  and  freedom,  for  both  these  principles  converge  
in the Divine Nature. Freedom in God is spiritual determination.
 “God has inscribed upon Himself (as a law) intensive Goodness (rahmah) ” 
(Qur’an, 6:12),
yet
“The grace of the Holy Ghost is not bound by any law” (St. Gregory).
These statements are not inherently contradictory but
express the principial truth of the spiritual determination of the Divine
Nature, reflected in the Heart of ‘Man’. From the human perspective, the
Good is existentially ‘necessary’. At the same time, Goodness constitutes
our intrinsic ‘freedom’. In God, these principles converge as one.
It  is  in  the  light  of  the  Divine  Nature  that  creation  and  existence  
can  be  understood,  not  as  aspects  of  divine  indigence  or  privation—
which  would  falsely  equate  divine  necessity  with  contingency—but  
as  expressions  of  divine  effulgence  or  Goodness—in  which  divine  
necessity is an aspect of freedom. Nothing exists outside God. From the
merely human perspective, Man and the world are separate from God
(an idea reflected in the etymology of the term, ‘existence’—‘to stand
apart from’). But in reality, existence is embraced by the Absolute: “All
is one”. Within this matrix, creation is the Divine Self-Disclosure of God
to God. It is the great ‘play’ of life in which the infinite possibilities of
existence are given finite and transient expression, like bubbles of foam
upon a great Ocean. The bubbles die, the Ocean remains. “Only God is.”
From  the  purely  human  perspective,  one  could  say  that  necessity  
recognizes the truth that “Only God is”, while freedom recognizes the
truth  that  “All  is  God.”  Such-and-such  a  man  is  finite,  has  a  temporal  
existence,  and  is  subject  to  the  laws  of  necessity,  but  Man-as-such,  
in  his  spiritual  core,  is  infinite,  eternal,  and  free.  Individual  reality  is  
contingent but the Spirit is absolute.
Man lives within the confines of the finite and the temporal,
which define the dimensions of ‘necessity’ within  existence,
and  it  is  in  this  sense  that  God  is  transcendent.  
But  the  divine  Spirit,  in-dwelling  within  the  Heart  of  Man,  opens  the  
soul to the possibility of its ‘freedom’, and it is in this sense that God
is  also  immanent.  Thus  the  spiritual  core—or  Heart—of  Man,  in  its  
oneness, is both transcendent and immanent, and reflects the spiritual
determination  of  the  Divine  Nature  that  is  the  intrinsic  Goodness  or  
substance of its being. Necessity and freedom are reconciled inwardly
in the Heart of Man, and it is by spiritual self-knowledge of the Heart
that  true  freedom  is  attained  (“And  ye  shall  know  the  truth,  and  the  
truth shall make you free” – John, 8:32).

Freedom  is  not  absolute  independence,  for  one  is  free  only  to  the  
extent that one’s freedom accords with one’s responsibility. True freedom
subsists only within the confines of the Law—that is, of our primordial
nature. One is free to the extent that one is liberated from the limitations
of  the  egoic  self  and  its  worldly  attachments  (from,  as  Shelley  puts  
it,  “that  unrest  which  men  miscall  delight”  and  “the  contagion  of  the  
world’s slow stain”); and one is captive to the extent that one is subject
to the fears, compulsions, carnal desires, and passions of the ego, and
the allurements, illusions, and limitations of the outer world.
Freedom in this sense is a form of death—of “dying to the self” and
“dying  to  the  world.”  Death,  thus  understood,  is  necessity.  Each  of  us  
understands that there is no escaping death. The death to come, which
will snatch us away from this physical world and by which we will one
day shake off this mortal coil, is a shadow that looms over our lives as
the ultimate necessity of existence, but its prospect also functions in
the  here-and-now  as  a  mercy,  as  a  symbol  of  self-transcendence,  and  
of the power of liberation from contingency. Living is, in essence, the
art of dying—of dying to the darkness so that one may be born to the
light.  This  is  the  true  goal  of  existence  and  of  the  quest  for  meaning.  
It is in this sense that Plato refers to philosophy as the study of death
(Phaedo, 81A).

To  accomplish  the  egoic  death,  requires  the  embracing  of  “God’s  
way”—of  fulfilling  our  destiny  according  to  the  Goodness  that  is  warranted  of  us,  according  to  the  acceptance  of  our  
dharma,  as  the  Hindus would say (see, for example, Lord Krishna’s counsel to Arjuna
to embrace his dharma on the field of Kurukshetra, in the Bhagavad Gita—dharma being an aspect of his innate spiritual nature). One of the
most compelling illustrations of the anguish of such acceptance is found
in  the  Biblical  episode  of  Jesus’  agony  in  the  Garden  of  Gethsemane,  
where  he  seeks  the  perfection  of  God’s  will  in  this  repeated  prayer:  
“O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless
not as I will, but as thou wilt” (Matthew, 26:39; also Luke
,  22:42). While recognizing the human agony of self-sacrifice, the prayer functions as
a  prayer  of  submission  through  love,  not  of  defeat.  It  is  a  prayer  that  
acknowledges one’s destiny by embracing it through Goodness, in the
faith that the egoic death serves as a release from bondage. For, as St.
Francis states, “It is in dying to self that we are born to eternal life.”

Modernism is noted for its two tendencies: relativism (the tendency to
overly emphasize the subjective, contributing to the loss of objectivity)
and reductionism (the tendency to absolutize reality on a contingent
plane, contributing to the “closing off” of reality). In the former instance,
we place a veil between the ego and the Self; in the latter, between the
world and the Self. In each case, the veil is a limitation that we must
overcome  through  transcendence.  The  process  for  this  liberation  is  
Truth  and  Virtue.  Truth:  “right  thinking”  based  on  “orthodoxy”,  which  
provides  us  with  the  doctrinal  understanding  of  what  is  Real.  Virtue:  
“right being” and “right doing”, based on “orthopraxy”, which provides
us with methods of Self-realization. Through Truth, we see the Goodness
of the Real; through Virtue, we embody it by our own Goodness. Truth
and Virtue are therefore aspects of our spiritual reality (the Heart or the
Self) and the limits of its self-determination (the Law).
In the Modernist outlook, the pursuit of freedom is not placed within
the confines of the Law. This encroachment is noticeable in connection
with the corruption of forms, which can be remarked even within the
practice of religion. One finds it in other areas too, for example, in art
(where the formal component is either reduced to the slavish mimicry
of  “realism”  or  to  diluted  abstraction  and  chaotic  surrealism)  or  in social relationships

(which alternate between the demands of “political correctness” and individualism).

 In the case of religion, the corruption of  forms  expresses  itself  through  either  the  
excessive  formalism  one  associates  with  “fundamentalism”  or  the  syncretic  eclecticism  one  associates  with  the  New  Age  movement.  In  each  instance,  orthodoxy  
is  subjected  to  infernal  impulses,  which  either  fossilize  the  religious  
forms by sacrificing the spirit to the letter of the Law, or dilute them by
abstracting or virtualizing the content of the forms instead of sacralizing
it as the embodiment of the Law.
The point is that Tradition requires forms. The Modernist errors are
to  either  focus  on  the  forms  to  the  detriment  of  their  content  or  to  
ignore the importance of the forms entirely. Man is neither at liberty to
deny his formal limitations (for he cannot stand and lift both feet off
the ground at the same time), nor to confine himself to those limitations
(for he can indeed lift his feet, one at a time, and make the pilgrimage
to  the  Heart’s  shrine).  Instead,  it  is  incumbent  on  Man  to  transcend  
his formal limitations. The purpose of forms in Tradition is to serve as
vehicles  for  Man’s  trans-formation—each  form  serving  as  a  potential  
opening  to  transcendence,  to  that  Presence  of  Goodness  or  Beauty  
which is in all forms and is a mirror of the intrinsic Virtue that lies in
our innermost Heart.

I will address your points, as I've taken down two full pages now of points that have been made, some true and some false, which will be addressed in separate posts.

And All praise belongs to God, the All-Seeing, the All-Knowing, Lord of the heavens and the earth.

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On 2/10/2018 at 8:23 PM, Quisant said:

 

The Imam is wrong, "Free will" cannot be "partial". By definition one's "will" is either "free" or controlled. No half-position exists for this concept. 

What Andres asked is a good question, pity you dismiss it so quickly.

All Islamic scholars (Shia included) accept the Law of Causality, also known as the Principle of Sufficient Reason: everything that exists exists for a reason and that reason is God.
If everything that exists has a ‘reason’ for its existence and the source of that reason is ‘random chance’ then you do have some free will.

But if the source of that ‘reason’ is God then you have no free will.

Omar Khayyam: 

"I came not hither of my own free will, 
And go against my wish, a puppet still; 

When Allah mixed my clay He knew full well 
My future acts, and could each one foretell; 

Without His will no act of mine was wrought; 
Is it then just to punish me in hell?" 
 

wslm.

*

Salaam,

No my friend, you are wrong, for even though the brother did not accurately write the Hadith, he also did not say that free will 'partial', which means you have fallen into error twice (to begin with) in saying that what the Imam said is wrong, and secondly that you superimposed your own understanding on a single sentence.

Pity you jump to conclusions, and make generalizations, although it seems the brother in all due respect was slightly harsh in his responses, although, it seems you are no better.
You fall into error again, twice, by firstly misquoting Omar Khayyam, and secondly super imposing your own understanding on/of a esoteric Sufi poem:

The poem goes:

I came not Hither of my own free will,
And go against my wish, a puppet still;
Cupbearer! gird thy loins, and fetch some wine;
To purge the world's despite, my goblet fill.

How long must I make bricks upon the sea?
Beshrew this vain task of idolatry;
Call not Khayyam a denizen of hell;
One while in heaven, and one in hell is he.


Rubáyát by Omar Khayyam - translated by E. H. Whinfield

For someone who is seemingly well versed in Logic, it astounds me that you would rely on a translation of a Persian Sufi poem to make a point, by misquoting a translation.

I hope you are as familiar with the saying, lost in translation.
There is no need at this point to explain what Omar al-Khayyam was saying/referring to, but have certainty that he is innocent of that which you attributed to him!


And All praise belongs to God, the All-Seeing, the All-Knowing, Lord of the heavens and the earth.

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In the name of God

 

On 2/10/2018 at 6:44 PM, Jin Jin said:

Before his call to Prophet Hood and during the early Years of Meccan period of his ministry, the Prophet - and his community with him - used to turn in prayer towards the Kabah. This was not prompted by any specific revelation, but was obviously due to the fact that Kabah - although it had in the meantime been filled with idols to which pre-Islamic Arabs paid homage - was always regarded as 1st temple ever dedicated to One God. 

"Behold, the First Temple ever set up for mankind was indeed one at Bakkah (I.e Makkah) rich in Blessing, and a source of guidance to all the Worlds. (Quran 3:96)

Since he was aware of the sanctity of Jerusalem - the other Holy centre of unitarian faith - The Prophet prayed, as a rule, before the Southern Wall of the Kabah, towards the North, so as to face both Kabah and Jerusalem. So this should answer your concern of The Prophet worshiping One God facing Kabah but actually facing Jerusalem. 

After the exodus to Madinah he continued to pray northwards, with only Jerusalem as his Qiblah (direction of prayer). About Sixteen months after his arrival in Madinah, however he received a revelation (Verses 142-150 of Surah Baqara i.e Chapter 2nd) which definitely established Kabah as the Qiblah of the followers of Quran. Now they turned their face towards Kabah while at Madinah.

This "abandonment" of Jerusalem, obviously displeased the Jews of Madinah, who must have felt gratified when they saw the Muslims praying towards their holy city and it is to them that the opening sentence of the passage refers i.e ... THE WEAK MINDED among people say..... 

If one considers the matter from historical point of view, there had never been "change" in the Divine Commandments relating to the Qiblah (direction of Prayer): there had simply been no ordinance whatever in this respect before Verses 142-150 of Chapter 2ndwere revealed. 


So Muhammad (saw) did not invent anything and was not doing anything against the Word of God in order to win the hearts of creation. He was 1st following what he thought was right, but once God decreed , then he followed what was decreed. 


As the Verse above says... Say "God's is the East and West; He guides whom He wills on to a straight way...which means it is not about facing East or West, its about believing and obeying God, for the Muslims were commanded and they obeyed, and the Jews were commanded and they disobeyed even though the one who was calling towards the path of guidance, is mentioned clearly in their scriptures.

 

On 2/10/2018 at 7:11 PM, andres said:

Where did you find this information?

This is the dear brothers own wording, but such information is available to us through Commentary of the Holy Quran, and if my memory doesn't fail me, this was mentioned in Tafsir al-Safi for Mulla Muhsin al-Faydh al-Kashani, which is not available in English or Swedish.

Though I might disagree, with some of the wording of his answer, it is nonetheless a great effort and the points are ones to be reflected on and taken into consideration, you must understand (and it seems that you do on one plane) that in the Islamic Tradition, the Quran is the word of God, so it is infallible, unlike the Christian tradition, where Jesus is the word of God and so his actions take precedence, his actions are the 'Word'.

It is late into the night here, so forgive me for any mistakes I make, and if anything is obscure I will correct or expand upon it as necessary.
I am trying to be as little philosophical as possible in order to make the points clear.


And All praise belongs to God, the All-Seeing, the All-Knowing, Lord of the heavens and the earth.

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In the name of God,

These few pages are from 'Knowledge and the Sacred' by S.H Nasr, they should properly address your questions with regards to 'predestination' and 'the problem of evil', 'If everything is predestined, what is the point in testing us?', God willing.


1.jpg.eb3cd49ba0074abed87b3ccbca8fcdd4.jpg
2.thumb.jpg.a44e57acd161169f7b97beec24e811e1.jpg

Edited by sirat-al-nur
slight addition, so that i dont have to quote every post and make it longer
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Iraqi, did you not say:
"We do not know anyone's fate, as we do not know the circumstances, their limitations etc. Hitler choose freely to do what he did, God did not force him to do it, he did not command him to do it, in fact he commanded him to be just and be a good person. So how is God responsible?"

Your statement:
A. We don't know anyone's fate
B. God didn't force Hitler to do the things he did
C. Therefore, it was Hitler's choice to do what he did (ie commit evil acts)

Premise B contradicts premise A, doesn't it? If we don't know anyone's fate, then how can you be so sure that Allah didn't force Hitler to do what he did?

I agree that Hitler chose to do evil things, but I think you are missing my point. My point is simply that the Koran specifically states that Allah schemes against schemers and since Hitler was one of the best schemers, it is only reasonable to think that Allah set him up...and if Allah set him up, then wouldn't that make Allah somewhat responsible for his wickedness? After all, you don't bait a mouse trap unless you know that the mouse will go for the treat and get caught in the trap. So why WOULDN'T Allah scheme against an idolater who turned people away from the truth? What about the story of the yellow cow in the Koran? If Allah makes such commands towards the children of Israel in the Koran, what would Allah do to a scheming idolater?

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1 hour ago, EdwardG said:

an idolater who turned people away from the truth? What about the story of the yellow cow in the Koran? If Allah makes such commands towards the children of Israel in the Koran, what would Allah do to a scheming idolater?

Salam

And We had made known to the children of Israel in the Book: Most certainly you will make mischief in the land twice, and most certainly you will behave insolently with great insolence. (4) So when the promise for the first of the two came, We sent over you Our servants, of mighty prowess, so they went to and fro among the houses, and it was a promise to be accomplished. (5) Then We gave you back the turn to prevail against them, and aided you with wealth and children and made you a numerous band. (6)

http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.shakir/17:4

Children of Israel always knew themselves as chosen ones that higher than anybody & any tribe so Allah punish them with warrior tribes & peoples that  they knew them lower than themselves ,Hitler was not first person that defeated them also idolatress defeat & ruined Jerusalem Temple before him. 

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1 hour ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

And We had made known to the children of Israel in the Book: Most certainly you will make mischief in the land twice, and most certainly you will behave insolently with great insolence. (4) So when the promise for the first of the two came, We sent over you Our servants, of mighty prowess, so they went to and fro among the houses, and it was a promise to be accomplished. (5) Then We gave you back the turn to prevail against them, and aided you with wealth and children and made you a numerous band. (6)

http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.shakir/17:4

Children of Israel always knew themselves as chosen ones that higher than anybody & any tribe so Allah punish them with warrior tribes & peoples that  they knew them lower than themselves ,Hitler was not first person that defeated them also idolatress defeat & ruined Jerusalem Temple before him. 

The Jewish people were not the only people that Hitler ruled over; he also ruled over all of Germany and then conquered Poland and many other countries along the way. I'm pretty sure that muslims who lived in those captured nations were also subjugated as well so if you think that Allah was punishing only the Jews, bear in mind that there were also other nations as well that were terrorized by Hitler.

Inadvertently though, your quotation from the Koran raising another very interesting point; if it was certain that the Jewish people would create mischief in the land twice, then why does Allah command the Jewish people to kill themselves through Moses? If they had obeyed and had killed themselves, then that would have been the end of it. But they didn't obey and Allah didn't curse or judge them further for their disobedience of not killing themselves. But why would Allah command them to do something that would hinder their ability to make mischief in the land twice as Muhammad prophesied?

That just doesn't make any sense.

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God created everything. A creator always has a responsability. If the creator knows the effects of his creation, he is even more responsible. I think Muslims will agree to this when it comes to humans. When it comes to God Muslims say, God has no responsability for his creation, because we all have a free will. Muslims believe God knows exactly what will happen, but how can this relieve God from all responsability? Was it necessary to create the loosers that God knew He would have to send to the eternal fire? Had God no possibility to make the future happy for us all? 

 

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9 hours ago, sirat-al-nur said:

No my friend, you are wrong, for even though the brother did not accurately write the Hadith, he also did not say that free will 'partial', which means you have fallen into error twice (to begin with) in saying that what the Imam said is wrong, and secondly that you superimposed your own understanding on a single sentence.

How am I wrong?

 

9 hours ago, sirat-al-nur said:

On Freedom and Neccesity by M. Ali Lakhani:

It  is  said  that  ‘Ali  ibn  Abi  Talib,  the  son-in-law  of  the  Holy  Prophet  of  
Islam, was once asked whether human beings possessed freedom or
whether  they  were  bound  by  the  laws  of  necessity.  According  to  the  
story, he responded by asking the questioner to raise one foot off the
ground. When he had done so, Imam ‘Ali responded, “So it seems you have
free will.” Then he continued, “Now, while you remain standing on one
foot, also raise your other foot off the ground.” “But this is impossible,”
responded the questioner. The Imam explained, “So it appears there are
also limits to your freedom.”

 

You are confusing free will with freedom of movement, which is a different subject altogether. If you were encased in concrete, you would still have freedom of thought, of will.

 

9 hours ago, sirat-al-nur said:

You fall into error again, twice, by firstly misquoting Omar Khayyam, and secondly super imposing your own understanding on/of a esoteric Sufi poem:

The poem goes:

I came not Hither of my own free will,
And go against my wish, a puppet still;
Cupbearer! gird thy loins, and fetch some wine;
To purge the world's despite, my goblet fill.

How long must I make bricks upon the sea?
Beshrew this vain task of idolatry;
Call not Khayyam a denizen of hell;
One while in heaven, and one in hell is he.


Rubáyát by Omar Khayyam - translated by E. H. Whinfield

Your rush to gloat at my supposed mistake only exposes your profound ignorance.

 

Rubáyát by Omar Khayyam - Both quatrains translated by E. H. Whinfield.

The 'poem' you quote is quatrain No 110:

I came not Hither of my own free will,
And go against my wish, a puppet still;
Cupbearer! gird thy loins, and fetch some wine;
To purge the world's despite, my goblet fill. 

The quatrain I quoted is No 100:

When Allah mixed my clay, He knew full well
My future acts, and could each one foretell;
Without His will no act of mine was wrought;
Is it then just to punish me in hell?

 

 

And this one is for you:

Drink wine to root up metaphysic weeds 
And tangle of the two and seventy creeds ; 
Do not forswear that wondrous alchemy, 
'Twill turn to gold and furnish all your needs. 

wslm.

*

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On 2/9/2018 at 10:59 PM, andres said:

 

Can God repent? What is the point of us being here if God already knows the future? Christians always disagreed on this. The Bible seemingly also does

So the Lord said, “I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them.” (Genesis 6:7)

God is no mere human! He doesn't tell lies or change his mind. God always keeps his promises. (Numbers 23:19)

As far as I have understood, (all?) Muslims agree Allah cannot change his mind, but here are two examples from the Quran that seemingly says Allaah can change his mind.  Is this an issue that also divide Muslims?

We do not abrogate a verse or cause it to be forgotten except that We bring forth [one] better than it or similar to it. Do you not know that Allah is over all things competent? (Quran 2:106)

And so We have made you ˹believers˺ an upright community so that you may be witnesses over humanity and that the Messenger may be a witness over you. We assigned your former direction of prayer only to distinguish those who would remain faithful to the Messenger from those who would lose faith. It was certainly a difficult test except for those ˹rightly˺ guided by Allah. And Allah would never discount your ˹previous acts of˺ faith. Surely Allah is Ever Gracious and Most Merciful to humanity. (Quran 2:143)

 

On 2/17/2018 at 7:36 PM, andres said:

I see nothing special. The story is inspired by the myth of Adam and Eve that we find in Genesis.

In the name of God,

I am a bit confused by your statement, you quote Genesis in your original post, and then call it a myth 5 pages later ?
Maybe you mean by myth, something other than what comes to mind, can you please explain or expand on what you consider Genisis to be?


Since you quoted it then called it a myth, and the 'Lord' speaks in myths, then the answer to your point about Gods repentance, is that which the Muslims hold as well, it is a myth.

2_106.png

We do not abrogate a verse or cause it to be forgotten except that We bring forth [one] better than it or similar to it. Do you not know that Allah is over all things competent?


The word ayah here means law, and not verse of the Quran, this is a what happens when you discuss a translation, the meaning becomes lost, in order to make this clearer since i don't want you to take my word for it, these are some other verses in which the word ayah is used to have several meanings:

16_101.png

 And when We substitute a verse in place of a verse - and Allah is most knowing of what He sends down - they say, "You, [O Muhammad], are but an inventor [of lies]." But most of them do not know.

The word ayah here means book, and not a verse of the Quran, as is made clear by the verses before and after it i.e the context (not to mention the Arabic once again).

In Islam, rather in religion as a whole, each Revelation comes with different laws that are subject to change in accordance with each Prophet, and that is the answer that God gives in the Quran.


 

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1 hour ago, Quisant said:

How am I wrong?

 

 

You are confusing free will with freedom of movement, which is a different subject altogether. If you were encased in concrete, you would still have freedom of thought, of will.

 

Your rush to gloat at my supposed mistake only exposes your profound ignorance.

 

Rubáyát by Omar Khayyam - Both quatrains translated by E. H. Whinfield.

The 'poem' you quote is quatrain No 110:

I came not Hither of my own free will,
And go against my wish, a puppet still;
Cupbearer! gird thy loins, and fetch some wine;
To purge the world's despite, my goblet fill. 

The quatrain I quoted is No 100:

When Allah mixed my clay, He knew full well
My future acts, and could each one foretell;
Without His will no act of mine was wrought;
Is it then just to punish me in hell?

 

 

And this one is for you:

Drink wine to root up metaphysic weeds 
And tangle of the two and seventy creeds ; 
Do not forswear that wondrous alchemy, 
'Twill turn to gold and furnish all your needs. 

wslm.

*



In the name of God,

Salaam,

As for how you're wrong, it is to me self evident, and if it is not to you, then i would suggest you contemplate it, it is not time worthy or relevant to discuss it any further as it will move us away from the main subject at hand.

As for how I am wrong, it is correct, you seem to have quoted the 100th quatrain, and there is no shame in admitting fault.
Nonetheless, it again fails to prove any point, to quote Omar al-Khayyam, as a proof, is a mistake in and of itself.
You rush to correct me for assuming you meant the 110th quatrain, and rightfully so, yet you neglect and fail to address the rest of the points I made with regards to the use of a translation of a Persian Sufi Poem, and a Sufi poem to begin with.

As for the confusion of free will with freedom of movement, as you should already be aware, there is a divide between philosophers, some took free will and freedom of movement to be one, and others viewed them as two separate freedoms.
Which again, is not very relevant, to the subject at hand, the Imam [a.s] in his reply to the man, was based on that mans (or that times) understanding of free will to be both and in accordance to his understanding of free will he would reply, and this does not take much effort to prove either.

With regards to the subjects of predestination, the article goes on to expand far more than what the initial Hadith was speaking of, and if you read on till the end it you should be able to see where this subject is addressed, concise as it may be.


All in all, the rest of the article and the 3 pages posted, should do well in explaining the concept from the view of Islamic Metaphysics.

As for the poem that is directed to me, your effort is much appreciated, it holds within it certain presuppositions about myself, and we will leave it at that.


And All praise belongs to God, the All-Seeing, the All-Knowing, Lord of the heavens and the earth.

Edited by sirat-al-nur
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2 hours ago, andres said:

God created everything. A creator always has a responsability. If the creator knows the effects of his creation, he is even more responsible. I think Muslims will agree to this when it comes to humans. When it comes to God Muslims say, God has no responsability for his creation, because we all have a free will. Muslims believe God knows exactly what will happen, but how can this relieve God from all responsability? Was it necessary to create the loosers that God knew He would have to send to the eternal fire? Had God no possibility to make the future happy for us all? 

 

 

9 hours ago, sirat-al-nur said:

In the name of God,

These few pages are from 'Knowledge and the Sacred' by S.H Nasr, they should properly address your questions with regards to 'predestination' and 'the problem of evil', 'If everything is predestined, what is the point in testing us?', God willing.


1.jpg.eb3cd49ba0074abed87b3ccbca8fcdd4.jpg
2.thumb.jpg.a44e57acd161169f7b97beec24e811e1.jpg

 

9 hours ago, sirat-al-nur said:

3.thumb.png.4d5468602cefe3379201d288b5c701bc.png


And All praise belongs to God, the All-Seeing, the All-Knowing, Lord of the heavens and the earth.

 

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1 hour ago, sirat-al-nur said:



 

 

In the name of God,

I am a bit confused by your statement, you quote Genesis in your original post, and then call it a myth 5 pages later ?
Maybe you mean by myth, something other than what comes to mind, can you please explain or expand on what you consider Genisis to be?

2_106.png

Genesis was written around 500 BC. About the time when Jews were in captivity in Babylon. The floodstory for instance, had by then been known in Babylon over a thousant years so it was already a myth when "borrowed" by Genesis, a little altered, just like 1.000 years later from Genesis to the Quran. There may very well have been a flood, but not if the size described in the Bible. True or not, the story was to warn Jews from disobeying their God. There are many myths in the Old Testament, but also stories written by contemporary people from the very beginning of Judaism (around 900BC), giving a good insight in how Judaism developed.

Edited by andres
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1 minute ago, andres said:

Genesis was written around 500 BC. About the time when Jews were in captivity in Babylon. The floodstory for instance, had by then been known in Babylon over a thousant years so it was already a myth when "borrowed" by Genesis, a little altered, just like 1.000 years later from Genesis to the Quran. There may very well have been a flood, but not if the size described in the Bible. True or not, the story was to warn Jews from disobeying their God. There are many myths in the Old Testament.

In the name of God,

According then to your own understanding and explanation, you quoted a verse that you consider to be a borrowed myth, since what you call a 'mythical story to warn Jews' is the same one from which the verse of the bible that you used to ask whether God repents is in, and in that case the answer remains unchanged, that God repenting is a myth and you have answered your question yourself.

And All praise belongs to God, the All-Seeing, the All-Knowing, Lord of the heavens and the earth.

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1 hour ago, sirat-al-nur said:

The word ayah here means book, and not a verse of the Quran, as is made clear by the verses before and after it i.e the context (not to mention the Arabic once again).


 

Never heard of Allah sending complete Books to Muhammed.

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4 minutes ago, sirat-al-nur said:

In the name of God,

According then to your own understanding and explanation, you quoted a verse that you consider to be a borrowed myth, since what you call a 'mythical story to warn Jews' is the same one from which the verse of the bible that you used to ask whether God repents is in, and in that case the answer remains unchanged, that God repenting is a myth and you have answered your question yourself.

And All praise belongs to God, the All-Seeing, the All-Knowing, Lord of the heavens and the earth.

If God has forseed everything, he logically cannot repent anything he created. So He does not repent having created Hitler. Everything would be predestinied. God made the entire story from the start. I dont believe so, I believe we have a free will. 

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5 minutes ago, andres said:

Never heard of Allah sending complete Books to Muhammed.

In the name of God,

Thats true.


Lets look at the verse before it to add some context without referring to history at the present time:

 


 

16_100.png

His authority is only over those who take him as an ally and those who through him associate others with Allah.

 

16_101.png

 And when We substitute a verse in place of a verse - and Allah is most knowing of what He sends down - they say, "You, [O Muhammad], are but an inventor [of lies]." But most of them do not know.



The books being referred to here as being replaced, are the Holy Scriptures, the Bible etc.

As Muslim we must accept that there were different Holy Books sent down, different Prophets and Religions.

And All praise belongs to God, the All-Seeing, the All-Knowing, Lord of the heavens and the earth.

 

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10 minutes ago, andres said:

If God has forseed everything, he logically cannot repent anything he created. So He does not repent having created Hitler. Everything would be predestinied. God made the entire story from the start. I dont believe so, I believe we have a free will. 

In the name of God,

Have you not read anything I have posted or written from the start?
This is a genuine question, because it seems you are adamant on repeating the same question over and over again.
What is not logical is rather that you are arguing with yourself at the moment, because you asked a question based on a verse of your choosing, then claimed that verse is a myth and now after claiming it is a myth, you are arguing against the very myth you used to ask your question, once again answering yourself to justify a belief that is based on disproving a verse, which you yourself consider to be mythical.




And All praise belongs to God, the All-Seeing, the All-Knowing, Lord of the heavens and the earth.

Edited by sirat-al-nur
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1 hour ago, sirat-al-nur said:

In the name of God,

Have you not read anything I have posted or written from the start?
This is a genuine question, because it seems you are adamant on repeating the same question over and over again.

My last post was not a question, it was a logical statement that seemingly is impossible to discuss with (all?) Muslims

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3 hours ago, sirat-al-nur said:

As for how you're wrong, it is to me self evident, and if it is not to you, then i would suggest you contemplate it, it is not time worthy or relevant to discuss it any further as it will move us away from the main subject at hand.

 In your earlier post you accuse me of 'have fallen into error twice' and now you declare  'it is not time worthy or relevant to discuss it any further as it will move us away from the main subject at hand'.  
You are hiding behind words, which errors have I fallen into? What is the point of saying I am wrong if you cannot show me where I am wrong?

 

3 hours ago, sirat-al-nur said:

As for the confusion of free will with freedom of movement, as you should already be aware, there is a divide between philosophers, some took free will and freedom of movement to be one, and others viewed them as two separate freedoms.

There is a divide between which philosophers? Can you name a few and include a link?
 

3 hours ago, sirat-al-nur said:

Which again, is not very relevant, to the subject at hand, the Imam [a.s] in his reply to the man, was based on that mans (or that times) understanding of free will to be both and in accordance to his understanding of free will he would reply, and this does not take much effort to prove either.

If it does not take much effort to prove why don't you do so in your own words instead of referring me to a wall of words?

 

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On 20/02/2018 at 9:21 PM, andres said:

The question was if Airbus had sold planes that they knew were not safe. Would they still not have any responsability in case of an accident? 

No, airbus would be responsible, as they are supposed to be making planes fit for purpose. If they are not, and knowingly doing so or negligently doing so, then they would be responsible. 

 

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10 hours ago, iraqi_shia said:

No, airbus would be responsible, as they are supposed to be making planes fit for purpose. If they are not, and knowingly doing so or negligently doing so, then they would be responsible. 

 

So Airbus was responsible for knowing there would be a risk of fatal failure, but God has no responsability even if He knew for certain that Airbus would build an airoplane that would crash. 

If God is not responsible for the actions of his creation that He knows 100% will happen, what is he responible for? Volcanic eruptions?

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2 hours ago, andres said:

So Airbus was responsible for knowing there would be a risk of fatal failure, but God has no responsability even if He knew for certain that Airbus would build an airoplane that would crash. 

If God is not responsible for the actions of his creation that He knows 100% will happen, what is he responible for? Volcanic eruptions?

You will have to refer to my previous answers to this same question, as I can not keep writing out the same things over and over, thanks.

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On 2/20/2018 at 9:23 PM, andres said:

I do not believe that sinners will be tortured eternally. Maybe the punishment of not entering heaven is enough punishment. But I do not know exactly. Do you?

Im glad that you have changed your views, previously it appeared you did not believe God would punish anyone who had sinned ! 

Now at least you believe in consequences for deeds. 

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