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M666

Is Istikhara mandatory before marriage

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In Islam, 

There is no problem with culture UNTIL the culture contradicts Islam. Then there is a problem. 

Everyone has a culture because everyone was raised in a particular place, at a particular time and speaks a particular language. If your husband says 'We come from this culture', to mean that this culture is just a valid as Islam, then why did Rasoulallah(p.b.u.h) forbid the Arabs from doing tawaf naked, gambling, drinking alcohol,  and marrying the women who were married to their father after their father passed away. These were all part of Arabic culture before Islam and very well documented. 

It is because they were not part of Islam and contradicted the religion. So they were forbidden. Not all the Arab customs and culture was contradictory to Islam, so those things were allowed. Hajj existed before Islam, it was continued in a modified form. The Muta' (temporary marriage) was part of Arab culture before Islam, it was allowed to continue and other forms of marriage were forbidden (such as the one mentioned above). I don't want to belabour this point,  but I hope you get it and can help him understand

I am a revert and was born and raised in the US. There are certain parts of American culture that I stopped doing once I became muslim (you can guess which parts). There are also others which are very good and I continued doing those. There are parts of Pakistani culture that contradict Islam, other parts are good. Although I don't know so much about Pakistani culture, I have heard about many aspects of it in my time on Shia Chat. This part about all family members have to agree on a marriage in order for it to take place is contradictory to the religion, I can tell you that. Any aspect of culture that puts up artificial barriers to halal marriage opens the doors to haram, as verified by the famous hadith 'When a door to halal is closed, 1000 doors to haram are opened'. Anything which opens the door to haram is haram itself. Adding conditions for a marriage to be valid (such as an Istikhara must be done and all family members must agree, etc) outside of the Islamic conditions puts up artificial barriers and opens the doors to haram. This supposed Sheik who says Istikhara is wajib and all those other people who put up these barriers will die someday and they will meet Allah(s.w.a) and Rasoulallah(p.b.u.h) and they will be held accountable for their words and their actions. If they realized that, they should be scared of that. If they are scared of that, they should not do it, whatever they call it. 

Salam. 

Islam didn't come to get rid of culture, it came to purify it. The problem is....

most people take what they want from religion and take what they want from culture, mix the two together, and call it Islam. 

 

Edited by Abu Hadi

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3 minutes ago, Abu Hadi said:

In Islam, 

There is no problem with culture UNTIL the culture contradicts Islam. Then there is a problem. 

Everyone has a culture because everyone was raised in a particular place, at a particular time and speaks a particular language. If your husband says 'We come from this culture', to mean that this culture is just a valid as Islam, then why did Rasoulallah(p.b.u.h) forbid the Arabs from doing tawaf naked, gambling, drinking alcohol,  and marrying the women who were married to their father after their father passed away. These were all part Arabic culture before Islam and very well documented. 

It is because they were not part of Islam and contradicted the religion. So they were forbidden. Not all the Arab customs and culture was contradictory to Islam, so those things were allowed. Hajj existed before Islam, it was continued in a modified form. The Muta' (temporary marriage) was part of Arab culture before Islam, it was allowed to continue and other forms of marriage were forbidden (such as the one mentioned above). I don't want to belabour this point,  but I hope you get it and can help him understand

I am a revert and was born and raised in the US. There are certain parts of American culture that I stopped doing once I became muslim (you can guess which parts). There are also others which are very good and I continued doing those. There are parts of Pakistani culture that contradict Islam. Although I don't know so much about Pakistani culture, I have heard about many aspects of it in my time on Shia Chat. This part about all family members have to agree on a marriage in order for it to take place is contradictory to the religion, I can tell you that. Any aspect of culture that puts up artificial barriers to halal marriage opens the doors to haram, as verified by the famous hadith 'When a door to halal is closed, 1000 doors to haram are opened'. Anything which opens the door to haram is haram itself. Adding conditions for a marriage to be valid (such as an Istikhara must be done and all family members must agree, etc) outside of the Islamic conditions puts up artificial barriers and opens the doors to haram. This supposed Sheik who says Istikhara is wajib and all those other people who put up these barriers will die someday and they will meet Allah(s.w.a) and Rasoulallah(p.b.u.h) and they will be held accountable for their words and their actions. If they realized that, they should be scared of that. If they are scared of that, they should not do it, whatever they call it. 

Salam. 

 

 

 

Most people take what they want from religion and take what they want from culture, mix the two together, and call it Islam. 

 

Thank you so much for sharing your knowledge with me. I really appreciate it. I will explain all this to him but he is going to repeat it the same old things again, "I have asked the maulvi, he is very intelligent and has done a lot of research", "it is part of Islam to do istikhara" etc. Trust me he has run out of excuses but I don't blame him. His parents are adding a massive pressure on him. They made him do istikhara from Quran and apparently it said "no". The whole concept they are following is wrong. But to promise me marriage two years ago (his parents spoke to my parents) and then do all of this is very wrong. I have told him that Islam places a lot of importance of fulfilling promises but he doesn't care. He says "it's the will of Allah because the Quran said no, therefore, I will have to leave you". He keeps sayings "because I am Pakistani" "you are Pakistani too, why aren't you following it". The whole thing is just unislamic but his parents keep telling him it is Islamic and now he had to follow the "bad" istakhara which he has done literally weeks before the wedding date was decided. 

I feel this whole culture thing is an excuse too. Because I am Pakistani myself and we don't really do istikhara the way he is telling me. I do live in the UK though so I have generally very little interaction with the Pakistani community. His parents even said to my parents when they called them to Pakistan that why doesn't your daughter continue talking to my son but they marry someone else. They are so disgusting in their mentality. His brother told me today that his parents don't want this marriage so obviously they are gonna twist the whole istikhara thing to make it bad like you mentioned. 

I am so thankful for your contribution and other people contributing here everyday. I have very limited contact with people. And I felt so lonely and I was lost but your knowledge is really helping me go through this and making me stronger everyday. May Allah bless you all. Thank you so much

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I would also like to ask for your guidance in more thing. Basically his parents made a commitment with me about marriage. They called my dad formally and said we will get them married in two years. And now they don't want to honour their pledge only because the istikhara from Quran is "bad". What is the importance of commitment and promises in Islam esp in this case, where marriage is involved and they are trying to back out using istikhara. i have heard that when you have given your word to someone or made a decision you shouldn't do istikhara. If they really wanted to do it they should have done it at the time of marriage proposal two years ago. 

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In Islam, the marriage is concluded when the aqd, or marriage contract is done. This is sometimes called the Kitab. It is when the Sheik asks you 'Do you want to marry this person, are you being forced, etc...) then he writes your name down in his book. If this is done in an Islamic country (I think the UK does this also), you are issued a marriage certificate. In  the Sunni mathabs, four witnesses are required to witness the ceremony. In Jaafari fiqh(Shiism), witnesses are not required but there are almost always witnesses anyway (because this usually happens at the wedding ceremony in front of family). 

Before this point, you are not married. In Islam, you are either married, or not married. This period that you are in counts as not married.  Before the Kitab, you are not married. Obviously if someone promised you something, they should keep their promise, but your status is still unmarried, so before the Kitab happens and the certificate is issued, anyone can change their mind. That is the first stage. The final step for aqd (contract) happens when the marriage is consumated. After that, you are fully married and nothing short of a divorce would end the relationship. 

Edited by Abu Hadi

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He is keeps saying that religious practices changes from place to place. He says in my house it is a religious practice that we all follow and it is in Islam too. He has nothing to prove his point. I feel like I am arguing with a fool. He is now saying he will go speak to another maulana and see what happens. I forgot to add one more thing in my previous posts. His parents called him to Pakistan within 2 days by saying that come here and sort out the things with your marriage as in the event, venue etc and then get married and then go. So he flew to Pakistan, and then all of a sudden they said do istikhara. It all just doesn't add up. 

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Okay guys, a little update on the whole situation. I presented him all the facts you have given me on istikhara and the fact that it is not mandatory today. I said what do you want now. He said i will still do another istikhara because that's what my parents want. His arguement that it is mandatory is not valid anymore so he is not using it. He is saying that we did one istikhara using the Quran, it said no so the marriage is cancelled but I will push for another istikhara even though I told him everything you all told me He told me to wait for that. I already know he is going to say it is bad because it is honestly now just an excuse to end the wedding that was planned this month. I don't know what I should do. Should I let him do that or just move on. Because it's clear that he isn't following Islam on this. And when he will be told why he did that to me, he will always have an excuse in his head that the istikhara from the Quran said no! He is living in falsehood. I honestly pray Allah serves justice one day. 

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5 hours ago, M666 said:

Okay guys, so today I spoke to him. I told him that istikhara is not mandatory and everything you all explained. He said to me that istikhara is not but I am Pakistani and you are Pakistani therefore you have to follow the culture. When I said istikhara is done in doubt he said no it's mandatory. But now he has changed his statement a little by saying the maulana who is very good and researched well in his life has said he has to do it, it's in his family and culture. He then said we are doing it because of your dad. Basically me and his dad had a little disagreement about mehr but then it got sorted out. Initially when the whole marriage thing was being discussed. He told his parents to invite my parents in person so they can do my proposal in person. He promised me that don't worry my parents have called your parents to our house only to decide marriage date. This happened 3 years ago.  So my parents went to Pakistan and went to his house expecting them to talk about proposal. They went there with a cake expecting things to start. His parents then said tell your daughter to go and that you guys marry her off to someone else. They disrespected my parents and misled them because they told him that they will discuss marriage. Instead they call my parents to their house just to say to tell me to awar and that they will explain to their son that not to marry me. They could have said this is person but they decide to insult them. I wanted to end the relationship there because that was out of order. He then took another year and finally the parents called after a lot hesitation to propose marriage. My parents agreed even though they felt disrespected but they did it for my sake happiness and happiness. Within that two years they didn't talk to me all. Never on eid or anything. Obviously my parents were looking at this and observing everything. My dad could see that I wasn't being treated right but he stayed quite for the sake of his daughter. Then few months ago the issue of mehr came and my dad and his dad had a little disagreement. But it then got resolved. He today said to me that he is doing istikhara because of my dad. And the way he has been when the mehr thing was happening that's why we went to straight from Quran and it said no. So now he is changing his statement. First he said I am doing istikhara because it is wajib then he said its culture. And now he is saying it's because of my dad and mehr thing. Also when my dad was talking to his dad on the phone he said lets get on with marriage and let's solve the mehr issue.. We are both doing it for our kids sake at the end of the day... We have no choice. Obviously my dad is not stupid. He can see and sense that his parents didn't treat me right. Also his brother on the phone yesterday mentioned to me that his parents don't want this marriage but are doing it for our sake. But now he is disregarding what his parents did or think and He using that one sentence my dad said today to justify this istikhara one month before marriage. Brothers and sisters. I have no one to talk to and discuss all this for advice. That's why I keep coming here for help. 

My goodness, now how many times have i heard culture wrecking peoples lives? 

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Thanks to your help, he is left speechless. He knows I have access to a knowledgable community providing me knowledge and guidance. He is so confused because you have totally silenced him. Thank you so much. I told him I am talking to a Shia community. He is now telling me that he has a statement from an ayyatollah that proves that istikhara is mandatory. I said okay show it to me. He said I will but on one condition that you won't talk about it with the community. Lol because he knows you will give me the right facts and guide me. He is such a liar. My heart is now off this marriage.. I am still sad how he manipulated me for 10 years because I would've  have had a husband by now and  would have been happily married because I had a lot of marriage proposals but I declined them all because of him. 

 

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25 minutes ago, M666 said:

Thanks to your help, he is left speechless. He knows I have access to a knowledgable community providing me knowledge and guidance. He is so confused because you have totally silenced him. Thank you so much. I told him I am talking to a Shia community. He is now telling me that he has a statement from an ayyatollah that proves that istikhara is mandatory. I said okay show it to me. He said I will but on one condition that you won't talk about it with the community. Lol because he knows you will give me the right facts and guide me. He is such a liar. My heart is now off this marriage.. I am still sad how he manipulated me for 10 years because I would've  have had a husband by now and  would have been happily married because I had a lot of marriage proposals but I declined them all because of him. 

 

That's total rubbish. This is typical from the Pakistan/Indian countries, rife with utter superstition and harsh on women like no other.  I can't make you decide anything and don't make a judgement just based of what i say, but honestly, if you were my real sister i would have told you to forget this guy.  You've been strung along, he isn't committing, he is jumping from one answer to another - with due respect and not to backbite but to give you advice.  When you marry someone, they are your rock. You need to feel like you can trust them, and vice versa and not be plunged into uncertainty. If Mummy-Jee - with all due respect- controls him during the marriage, and if this were even to go through, just ponder for a moment over just how many more decisions you won't even be able to make as a couple ? It happens so many times in these types. 10 years is a long time, and your scars will heal. The best thing you can do is recognise you've had proposals - a lot as you say. Clearly you're sought after , use that to find someone more compatible who will commit and not play games.  If he comes begging to you to forgive him and the like, just exercise your better judgement.

Do you know what happens when people don't actually want something? They make excuses, one after the other and hop from one position to another. As i said, if i were in your shoes i would forget about someone playing with my mind in this fashion and move on. Work on self-improvement in all areas, and come back stronger than ever before, and to such a level you begin to shock people and are then able to have a far greater array of options and someone who is actually decent for you. 

InshAllah it all works out. 

 

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6 hours ago, M666 said:

I would love to take him to court. But I wouldn't because Allahs court is the biggest court of justice and I know justice will be served. Thank you for your input in this. You guys have made me in a lot better place than I was before. End of the day I am only 28! Allah will give me his blessing! I am getting stronger with your support everyday. But I have my moments too when I break down.

I just read you're only 28. Sister you have a good few years and if you leave this pursuit , take a few months off if not more, heal yourself and get back to finding someone. Consider this a dodged bullet. 

Life is really not fair. People get cancer, some lose their mothers, some their fathers. Some people are born extremely short and have no chance at marriage, some people born with deformities. Some people are killed quickly, some die in air disasters, natural disasters, murder, and a range of different things. The moment i woke up one day and realised no-one owes me anything, bad things can happen, and i can either let it get me down or i can get back up and keep fighting and move on, is the day i feel was a turning point for me.

You're going to break down, maybe sometimes miss what you had. You're going to start thinking about a hundred different whatifs. However, someone who is actually good for you will make you feel secure, and not play you like this. When you find that person inshAllah, you'll look back and laugh i hope. 

If you do leave this pursuit, you must go NoContact. That means no communication whatsoever, blocked from everywhere - even change your number and ask your parents to block his number and his families number. Delete everything about him, because it will make it so much easier to move on.  Even if he comes running back and promising you things, maintain NoContact. This is you moving on for you. There will be hard days, some better than others, but time will heal.

To invite your parents all the way to Pakistan and tell them that is a total and utter joke, i'm sorry. A total joke. Can't even imagine what they as a mother and father are going through being also played around like this. Way too many sad stories from India and Pakistan you know.

Edited by Intellectual Resistance

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2 hours ago, Intellectual Resistance said:

My goodness, now how many times have i heard culture wrecking peoples lives? 

Till they don't get the enough sense to not to follow each and every thing good or bad in the name of culture and tradition blindly!! Sorry to say but the parents themselves feed in their kid's brain that culture and tradition thing without thinking twice where it leads to:angry:

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1 hour ago, Fakeha said:

Till they don't get the enough sense to not to follow each and every thing good or bad in the name of culture and tradition blindly!! Sorry to say but the parents themselves feed in their kid's brain that culture and tradition thing without thinking twice where it leads to:angry:

Heard too many people say they will never try to get married to anyone who lives in Pakistan/India, and while this may be extreme, there is some logic to it given that culture there generally has enormous room for improvement. It's sort of hijacked Islam in places. I wouldn't know though, i only go by testimony of hundreds of independent corroborating witnesses. 

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2 hours ago, Intellectual Resistance said:

That's total rubbish. This is typical from the Pakistan/Indian countries, rife with utter superstition and harsh on women like no other.  I can't make you decide anything and don't make a judgement just based of what i say, but honestly, if you were my real sister i would have told you to forget this guy.  You've been strung along, he isn't committing, he is jumping from one answer to another - with due respect and not to backbite but to give you advice.  When you marry someone, they are your rock. You need to feel like you can trust them, and vice versa and not be plunged into uncertainty. If Mummy-Jee - with all due respect- controls him during the marriage, and if this were even to go through, just ponder for a moment over just how many more decisions you won't even be able to make as a couple ? It happens so many times in these types. 10 years is a long time, and your scars will heal. The best thing you can do is recognise you've had proposals - a lot as you say. Clearly you're sought after , use that to find someone more compatible who will commit and not play games.  If he comes begging to you to forgive him and the like, just exercise your better judgement.

Do you know what happens when people don't actually want something? They make excuses, one after the other and hop from one position to another. As i said, if i were in your shoes i would forget about someone playing with my mind in this fashion and move on. Work on self-improvement in all areas, and come back stronger than ever before, and to such a level you begin to shock people and are then able to have a far greater array of options and someone who is actually decent for you. 

InshAllah it all works out. 

 

Thank you so much for your kind and consoling words. Everyone who has contributed here, including yourself has no idea how much you are helping me go through this painful period in my life. maybe Allah is saving me from him and his family. his family tried everything to get rid of me but he kept pushing. In the end they said lets do this istikhara because then he will have nothing to argue with because according to them "it is the will of Allah" and that "Allah is not happy with this marriage". But I have to blame him aswell. If he was man enough, he would do the right thing. You are right, a life partner provides stability in life. He has never provided me comfort and in the end when I thought finally I am gonna be married to him he left me hanging saying my parents want to do istikhara because we want to seek what is best from Allah. They pull the Quran out and within a hours say Allah is not happy with this marriage. I feel sick thinking about all this. I would never do this to anyone. They are truly heartless and he genuinely doesn't love me. He is too busy trying to please his parents which I am not saying is a bad thing but even when the whole thing is wrong he can't stand up against it to fulfil the promise he made. I invested so much time and energy in this. I know the relationship was not right because a girl and guy should never talk. Maybe I am getting punished for this. He led me on for years and years with fake promises of marriage telling me it will happen now and then it would never happen. There was always an excuse ready and finally they bought it all down to this istikhara which they didn't even do properly. Maybe Allah is saving me from all this. You are right, if he is such a mummy's boy how will they let us live as a couple.  

I am gonna leave it to Allah now. I don't trust him. You know what he is afraid of? He is afraid that I will call his dad and speak to him. He is a 29 year old grown man and he is scared of these sort of things. It is time to move on. Please keep me in your prayers. I need yours duas. I also wish that Allah serves justice and that he gets exactly what he deserves. It's not just me he has caused this pain to. My parents also suffered. My mothers heart sinks everytime she sees what he is doing to me. He has given me nothing but tears. May Allah move my mind away from him and I am going to cut him off. It will be difficult but that is the only way out. As you said, I need to focus on myself. My career. I am a graduate, I can do so much but he has slowed my growth. He gave me so much pain from the age of 22 till now when I am 28 that it has impacted every part of my life. It will take time I know that but it has to be done. My parents always say if a man wants you he marries you. He doesn't make excuses. His life is full of excuses. If he told me that he comes from a superstitious family who only want him to do exactly what they I would have backed out but he pushed me in this to leave empty handed. I want to get married but I need time away from this. He is now saying to me I am doing another istikhara, wait for it. What kind of joke is that? Who plays with someone's life like that? He has no shame or mercy. He keeps saying istikhara has to be done and I can show you from Quran and major sources. He is dillusional. 

Thank you for your lovely words. I prayed to Allah few days ago for help and Allah guided me to this forum. I feel a lot stronger now that I have a community who I can take guidance from in this hard time. Thanks once again may Allah bless you. Inshallah 

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22 minutes ago, M666 said:

Thank you so much for your kind and consoling words. Everyone who has contributed here, including yourself has no idea how much you are helping me go through this painful period in my life. maybe Allah is saving me from him and his family. his family tried everything to get rid of me but he kept pushing. In the end they said lets do this istikhara because then he will have nothing to argue with because according to them "it is the will of Allah" and that "Allah is not happy with this marriage". But I have to blame him aswell. If he was man enough, he would do the right thing. You are right, a life partner provides stability in life. He has never provided me comfort and in the end when I thought finally I am gonna be married to him he left me hanging saying my parents want to do istikhara because we want to seek what is best from Allah. They pull the Quran out and within a hours say Allah is not happy with this marriage. I feel sick thinking about all this. I would never do this to anyone. They are truly heartless and he genuinely doesn't love me. He is too busy trying to please his parents which I am not saying is a bad thing but even when the whole thing is wrong he can't stand up against it to fulfil the promise he made. I invested so much time and energy in this. I know the relationship was not right because a girl and guy should never talk. Maybe I am getting punished for this. He led me on for years and years with fake promises of marriage telling me it will happen now and then it would never happen. There was always an excuse ready and finally they bought it all down to this istikhara which they didn't even do properly. Maybe Allah is saving me from all this. You are right, if he is such a mummy's boy how will they let us live as a couple.  

I am gonna leave it to Allah now. I don't trust him. You know what he is afraid of? He is afraid that I will call his dad and speak to him. He is a 29 year old grown man and he is scared of these sort of things. It is time to move on. Please keep me in your prayers. I need yours duas. I also wish that Allah serves justice and that he gets exactly what he deserves. It's not just me he has caused this pain to. My parents also suffered. My mothers heart sinks everytime she sees what he is doing to me. He has given me nothing but tears. May Allah move my mind away from him and I am going to cut him off. It will be difficult but that is the only way out. As you said, I need to focus on myself. My career. I am a graduate, I can do so much but he has slowed my growth. He gave me so much pain from the age of 22 till now when I am 28 that it has impacted every part of my life. It will take time I know that but it has to be done. My parents always say if a man wants you he marries you. He doesn't make excuses. His life is full of excuses. If he told me that he comes from a superstitious family who only want him to do exactly what they I would have backed out but he pushed me in this to leave empty handed. I want to get married but I need time away from this. He is now saying to me I am doing another istikhara, wait for it. What kind of joke is that? Who plays with someone's life like that? He has no shame or mercy. He keeps saying istikhara has to be done and I can show you from Quran and major sources. He is dillusional. 

Thank you for your lovely words. I prayed to Allah few days ago for help and Allah guided me to this forum. I feel a lot stronger now that I have a community who I can take guidance from in this hard time. Thanks once again may Allah bless you. Inshallah 

 

I have simple rule, if someone wants you, they will show it. If they don't they're going to consistently make excuses. Sometimes when you're married , or even engaged or even getting to know, wool might be pulled over ones eyes, and emotions often make it harder to see something clearly and objectively. You're a woman, and while you still are in your 20s , if you were strung along until your 30s marriage would have been much harder to find, though possible. Alhamdullilah you're not at that stage where someone has taken away your chance of finding someone decent, that i think is a real positive. This is your chance to take time off, heal, find yourself again and then get back up. This time you know the red flags, you know what sort of cultures to put a question mark over, and you don't have someone holding you back from finding someone compatible.  There are far too many red-flags here. As i said before, had you been my sister this would not have gone on anywhere near this long. 

Red flags (generic):

1. If anyone strings you along for years, and years and makes fake promises to commit but never does.

2. No honesty or transparency.

3. Playing around with emotions.

4. Not having the ability to make ones own decisions and this means your marriage is going to be a living hell as many women find out, when the mother in law is really in charge (this is so common, it's even been made into movies , the notorious 'Indian/Asian mother in law' though we should never generalise. )

 

I know you're probably emotionally attached - who wouldn't be after ten years?  However, let your parents know, get friends around you, go out, do things you enjoy, give yourself time to mourn and feel pain, and you'll have good days and bad days.  You're only 28, your life is ahead of you, inshAllah, consider this a bullet dodged and you'll never let yourself be fooled like this again.

With the right person, you'll find it takes work but it's 50/50, there's trust, there's transparency and everything else. They'll want to move it along just as much as you do for the Islamic form of commitment : marriage. 

Edited by Intellectual Resistance

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44 minutes ago, M666 said:

Thank you so much for your kind and consoling words. Everyone who has contributed here, including yourself has no idea how much you are helping me go through this painful period in my life. maybe Allah is saving me from him and his family. his family tried everything to get rid of me but he kept pushing. In the end they said lets do this istikhara because then he will have nothing to argue with because according to them "it is the will of Allah" and that "Allah is not happy with this marriage". But I have to blame him aswell. If he was man enough, he would do the right thing. You are right, a life partner provides stability in life. He has never provided me comfort and in the end when I thought finally I am gonna be married to him he left me hanging saying my parents want to do istikhara because we want to seek what is best from Allah. They pull the Quran out and within a hours say Allah is not happy with this marriage. I feel sick thinking about all this. I would never do this to anyone. They are truly heartless and he genuinely doesn't love me. He is too busy trying to please his parents which I am not saying is a bad thing but even when the whole thing is wrong he can't stand up against it to fulfil the promise he made. I invested so much time and energy in this. I know the relationship was not right because a girl and guy should never talk. Maybe I am getting punished for this. He led me on for years and years with fake promises of marriage telling me it will happen now and then it would never happen. There was always an excuse ready and finally they bought it all down to this istikhara which they didn't even do properly. Maybe Allah is saving me from all this. You are right, if he is such a mummy's boy how will they let us live as a couple.  

I am gonna leave it to Allah now. I don't trust him. You know what he is afraid of? He is afraid that I will call his dad and speak to him. He is a 29 year old grown man and he is scared of these sort of things. It is time to move on. Please keep me in your prayers. I need yours duas. I also wish that Allah serves justice and that he gets exactly what he deserves. It's not just me he has caused this pain to. My parents also suffered. My mothers heart sinks everytime she sees what he is doing to me. He has given me nothing but tears. May Allah move my mind away from him and I am going to cut him off. It will be difficult but that is the only way out. As you said, I need to focus on myself. My career. I am a graduate, I can do so much but he has slowed my growth. He gave me so much pain from the age of 22 till now when I am 28 that it has impacted every part of my life. It will take time I know that but it has to be done. My parents always say if a man wants you he marries you. He doesn't make excuses. His life is full of excuses. If he told me that he comes from a superstitious family who only want him to do exactly what they I would have backed out but he pushed me in this to leave empty handed. I want to get married but I need time away from this. He is now saying to me I am doing another istikhara, wait for it. What kind of joke is that? Who plays with someone's life like that? He has no shame or mercy. He keeps saying istikhara has to be done and I can show you from Quran and major sources. He is dillusional. 

Thank you for your lovely words. I prayed to Allah few days ago for help and Allah guided me to this forum. I feel a lot stronger now that I have a community who I can take guidance from in this hard time. Thanks once again may Allah bless you. Inshallah 

InShahAllah, 

Move on sister, that is the best thing. 

Do Dua Tawwasul tonight and pour your heart out to Allah(s.w.a) and ask him to give you someone better. I have never done Dua Tawassul and my request wasn't answered in a short time. A brother  posted this video in another thread. I recommend you watch it, it will make you feel better. I started crying while watching it. Please say Dua for me so that I could do Ziyarat of Imam Reda(a.s). 

 

 

Edited by Abu Hadi

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11 hours ago, Intellectual Resistance said:

Heard too many people say they will never try to get married to anyone who lives in Pakistan/India, and while this may be extreme, there is some logic to it given that culture there generally has enormous room for improvement. It's sort of hijacked Islam in places. I wouldn't know though, i only go by testimony of hundreds of independent corroborating witnesses. 

I once read somewhere that people here are too adaptive,sadly they adapt each and everything blindly... They called it beauty of blending I think of it as doping(in real values)

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3 hours ago, Fakeha said:

I once read somewhere that people here are too adaptive,sadly they adapt each and everything blindly... They called it beauty of blending I think of it as doping(in real values)

I hesitated to talk about this issue in the past because I am not Indian / Pakistani. So hearing things from an 'outsider' might night sit right with some brothers and sisters here who are good and I didn't want to offend them. Also I have friends in the community who are from Pakistan and India and most of them are good, mumin/a people with good values who take care of their families and even extended families. 

But when it comes to marriage, I think, most of the time, the mother of the potential groom has too much power. I have seen this happen several times in our community here in Dearborn. The potential bride / groom / and brides father are fine with the marriage, then someone else comes in a steps in between the potential husband and wife to sabotage the relationship for their own personal, non Islamic reasons. If it is another family member, it sometimes works and sometimes doesn't. If it is the groom's mother, it almost always works since it seems many men in Pakistan have no ability to view their mother's actions objectively. They look at every action of their mother as if she is masooma, and intellectionally and rationally they know she is not that. We should respect our parents, but at the same time, they are human beings with good and bad qualities and they sometimes do things that are not in our best interest. That's why Allah(s.w.a) gave us our own mind and our own heart, so we could be the final decider of our actions and not someone else because we (and not other people) will be held accountable for our actions. 

Edited by Abu Hadi

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Thank you very much you all for your guidance. This guy showed a lot of red flags but I was too young and naive to see them. I believed in him. The fact is that he does everything his family tells him to do which isn't a bad thing but when the things they tell him start clashing with our religion then it becomes wrong. The way they are using istikhara to fulfil their personal needs is absolutely disgusting. And he isn't man enough to stand up for me. If he can't do this before marriage then God knows what he would do after. He could even divorce me and use Islam as a way to justify it. He first wasted years and years of my life trying to make his parents happy with his choice. And the main problem in this whole situation is his mother. She was never happy with this whole thing. He pushed and pushed. In the end when they couldn't think of anything that would justify leaving me so they used istikhara and apparently it was very bad. He misquoted my dad and said your dad is to blame for everything when my dad has been more than patient in this whole situation. He keeps on saying in Pakistan we do istikhara but that is not true. He says you are Pakistani and you will have to follow it. That's what the maulanas recommend here. He can't stand up for me and the right thing because he is too scared to go against the cultural norms in his home.

 

I have to agree that it is in the Pakistani culture to be superstitious. It all goes back to the times when Pakistan was a part of India. In Hinduism they believe in these superstitions and I think maybe that's why even though we are not a part of India anymore, those cultural practices which are unIslamic have carried on. The way he says istikhara says no is quite amusing. I am hurt but as you all said I need to improve myself and pick myself up from all this mess. Rise above it and come out better and stronger. Maybe Allah is saving me. Also a few times he suggested that once I get married to him he will take me to Pakistan and then I will "serve" his mother and father and do stuff for them. I don't think that is a bad thing but this idea that they bring a girl to their house to "serve" their family is wrong. A purpose of woman is a lot bigger than that but sadly our culture undermines it. there is also a generation gap between his and my parents. My parents don't think like that but his parents are very old fashioned. 

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14 hours ago, Sisterfatima1 said:

Sister I am always here if you want to chat 

Thank you sister, your support and guidance means a lot to me. 

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42 minutes ago, Haimid said:

Assalam,

@Abu Hadi did you have any Ziyarat of imam reza a.s before?

No, unfortunately. I did Hajj and Umrah last year but didn't have the time to do Ziyarat, due to my work schedule.

I regretted that I didn't go. 

I shouldn't say I didn't do Ziyarat. I visited Jannatul Baqi, but the whole time I was there I was being harassed. Brothers and sisters who went know what I am talking about. I hope to finish my Ziyarat soon, InShahAllah. 

Edited by Abu Hadi

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31 minutes ago, Abu Hadi said:

No, unfortunately. I did Hajj and Umrah last year but didn't have the time to do Ziyarat, due to my work schedule.

I regretted that I didn't go. 

I shouldn't say I didn't do Ziyarat. I visited Jannatul Baqi, but the whole time I was there I was being harassed. Brothers and sisters who went know what I am talking about. I hope to finish my Ziyarat soon, InShahAllah. 

wanna do it together?:-)

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@Abu Hadi The reason for this behavior among Pakistanis/Indians is because obedience to parents gives you success in life. I have seen many people who are just terrible humans, they are cruel to so many people, they commit so many sins but they please their parents and that's why they get all kinds of success in world. Most people think of success as a sign of pious ness. That's why such people become popular and they are considered pious. I have a friend who married against her parents' will. She did get permission from them but they were unhappy (syed non syed issue). Now she is living very hard life, she works so hard and for past 10 years, she has been trying to please her father but he is not willing to forgive her. She is probably one of the most pious, hardworking, generous, and patient person I know but her life is hard because her parents are stubborn, traditional, and ignorant. Also she is dark skinned compared to her siblings and her parents are proud racists. It sometimes makes me question Allah's justice. This is the reason pakistani people blindly follow their parents without thinking about other people. People who disobey Their parents get punished immediately. But people who torture their wives, sibling or other people for decades never get punished. 

Edited by rkazmi33

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Guys today he sent me this message: 

"It is absolutely hurtful how you are using religion and Allah  inhis painful and hurtful situation to casue even more pain.

Bringing half cooked arguments, not listening to the other side, but instead acting and haressing my family. 

 I saw how willing they were for our marrisge, before your dad put demands.

I know you will not trust what I am saying, but that.is,the truth..istekhara is mandatory  in our.family and.what.made it even more.mandatory for everyone, was the way you acted.

When you 100 percent believe.you are.with.haq and Allah, then why are you hurting my and my family. Why are.you disrespecting them..

I could've done the same, but I didnt...know why 

Cause I believe.in Allahs justice more.than you" 

 

he is blaming me for the whole thing now. Always blame the female. He is confused and said all the arguments that you have presented me here are half cooked? He is using religion and Allah to justify istikhara? When it is apparent it is not mandatory. By weird demands he means that the disagreement on mehr but that got resolved and now he is blaming my dad for that. And by disrespecting he means me trying to call them and they not answering my calls in this extreme pain I am in. End of the day they made me his fiancé and promised my parents this marriage two years ago.

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@rkazmi33 I would not be so hung up about God justice as it is a fallacious contradiction and a non existing phenomenon. In fact I read a narration yesterday, that claimed that quick chastisement is quick on X type of humans, one being oppressors. Seen any evidence of that any where?. The thiestic claim is, that the soul is being corrupted , but a persons whose life has been destroyed due to the behaviors of others or the failed algorithim of the laws of the universe, then it begs the fundamental question is there really a Good God or is there actually a God?.

Your friend is suffering not due to being noagreeable to her parents, it is because she suffers from a false ideology and it drains her thinking power. If she stops in trying to seek forgivness of her ignorants father and live life, you will see her life change. Parents did not create children, they did so on a whim of pleasure.

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2 minutes ago, M666 said:

He also said to me that You have less trust in Allah  that you started fighting on istikhara and results of istikhara

stop talking to him and attempting to fix a broken vase. Ofcourse religion will be used to impress guilt.

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5 minutes ago, monad said:

stop talking to him and attempting to fix a broken vase. Ofcourse religion will be used to impress guilt.

I want to but it is very hard to cut him off completely. I want my dad to call his dad once and say that what they did was wrong but my dad is saying leave them. He doesn't want to confront them but i want to speak to his parents and let them know how hurt I am 

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Just now, M666 said:

I want to but it is very hard to cut him off completely. I want my dad to call his dad once and say that what they did was wrong but my dad is saying leave them. He doesn't want to confront them but i want to speak to his parents and let them know how hurt I am 

okay, you tell the parents that, then what?.

If they had no intention, then why should that arouse sympathy in them?. They will see it as a blessing. Perhaps you want to let them know that you are in the right. Even if you were, the stories humans tell others, will never be the truth to save face.

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5 minutes ago, monad said:

okay, you tell the parents that, then what?.

If they had no intention, then why should that arouse sympathy in them?. They will see it as a blessing. Perhaps you want to let them know that you are in the right. Even if you were, the stories humans tell others, will never be the truth to save face.

Yes I want to let them know that I am in the right but they don't even answer my calls, as in his mother or father. The only person who spoke to me one time was his brother who told me that they don't want this marriage even to this day. But I am thinking what will I achieve by telling them that I am right and they are wrong. I have told their son that and as you can see from my previous post what he said. He has no intention to follow the truth. He is telling me that all the facts that you all have presented me here are "half cooked" and that in his family istikhara is mandatory. I don't know what has got into him that he is saying all this. esp after wasting my time and promising me marriage. 

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7 hours ago, Abu Hadi said:

I hesitated to talk about this issue in the past because I am not Indian / Pakistani. So hearing things from an 'outsider' might night sit right with some brothers and sisters here who are good and I didn't want to offend them. Also I have friends in the community who are from Pakistan and India and most of them are good, mumin/a people with good values who take care of their families and even extended families. 

But when it comes to marriage, I think, most of the time, the mother of the potential groom has too much power. I have seen this happen several times in our community here in Dearborn. The potential bride / groom / and brides father are fine with the marriage, then someone else comes in a steps in between the potential husband and wife to sabotage the relationship for their own personal, non Islamic reasons. If it is another family member, it sometimes works and sometimes doesn't. If it is the groom's mother, it almost always works since it seems many men in Pakistan have no ability to view their mother's actions objectively. They look at every action of their mother as if she is masooma, and intellectionally and rationally they know she is not that. We should respect our parents, but at the same time, they are human beings with good and bad qualities and they sometimes do things that are not in our best interest. That's why Allah(s.w.a) gave us our own mind and our own heart, so we could be the final decider of our actions and not someone else because we (and not other people) will be held accountable for our actions. 

I'm mixed race, and one of my parents is indeed Indian/Pakistani so i think i can comment here.  This is only my theory from what i've observed and what i've seen in many other families. 

The son often brings the wife to his parents home. The mother is in charge of this home, she is like the 'chief woman' per say. She has her rules and her way of doing things, and is often extremely over protective over her son. She has often pampered him and smothered him with care, and often parents are very protective over their kids. It's a little bit like Chinese parents, where the pressure to study and excel is enormous - but it is matched with care. Often more than not, the mother continues to cook for, pamper, and even look after they sons well into their 20s and so a new woman coming into their sons life subconsciously is going to be met with some resistance from the mother.

1. She will have lived her life totally pampering her son in every way, and as soon as she does not see the wife doing likewise, she will feel he is not being cared for.

2. She has been the one really in charge of her sons life, even washing his clothes in most cases. She will feel a sense of authority over him and his decisions, and now the prospect of another woman deciding things with him independently (even if her views are considered in a respectful way) does not go down well

3. She is in charge of the house, and has her way of doing things, and when she was young her mother in law put the same standards over her, and now its her turn to do likewise to the next generation.

I believe that we must love our parents, respect them, care for them, and always make them know we listen to their concerns. However if the time ever comes when a parent feels they can abuse someones wife, humiliate her, treat her son or daughter like a child, act in whatever way they wish and exert control and dominance over their children , and when questioned  over it guilt-trip them by reminding them all the sacrifices they have done, it is going to psychologically damage everyone involved.

EDIT: From brothers i know who are married, their mother often guilt-trips them out of sincerity , feeling she wants the best for them, as mothers do. This is incredibly common. 

 

Tip to people from this culture: Wash your own clothes, cook as often as you can, get your independence, driving, career , and job as soon as possible. Slowly begin that step where you wean your mother of doing everything for you. If you don't, you may be in for a difficult moments. If you can help it, don't live with your parents , get your own place whilst still maintaining contact/care for them. If you do live in your own place, don't live with your wife in your family home for longer than a week or so if you're staying over to visit, and even then depending on factors be willing to mediate any drama.

Edited by Intellectual Resistance

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1 hour ago, M666 said:

Guys today he sent me this message: 

"It is absolutely hurtful how you are using religion and Allah  inhis painful and hurtful situation to casue even more pain.

Bringing half cooked arguments, not listening to the other side, but instead acting and haressing my family. 

 I saw how willing they were for our marrisge, before your dad put demands.

I know you will not trust what I am saying, but that.is,the truth..istekhara is mandatory  in our.family and.what.made it even more.mandatory for everyone, was the way you acted.

When you 100 percent believe.you are.with.haq and Allah, then why are you hurting my and my family. Why are.you disrespecting them..

I could've done the same, but I didnt...know why 

Cause I believe.in Allahs justice more.than you" 

 

My reply would be:

I'm a 28 year old woman. I've been here for ten years, where i have tried to push you for marriage and commitment, for many, many years.  Do you not think as a woman , at this age and where i am heading towards approaching 30s, i do not feel a sense of pain and uncertainty at being given false promises of commitment and marriage over the years? 

You claim the i am bringing half-cooked arguments, and using the religion of Allah. Let me testify one thing, and Allah is my witness, Istikhara is only used in these cases if at all, when there is cause for great doubt. However if you are able to ascertain the Taqwah of the other person, their righteousness, and their honesty and see you are compatible , it is not required and many scholars have even criticised its abuse in these cases. If you objectively go and read books on Istikhara, not constrained by what culture says but by what Allah, his apostle, and the purified progeny [asws] have said, relayed by scholars such as Sayed Sistani and others, you will know what i am saying is Haq. Furthermore, if you had been so constrained by culture, why did you not make this clear earlier, rather than make false promises of marriage? Did not the Messenger of Allah [saw] say that a believer is one who keeps his promise? Do you think it just to lead someone on for a decade and then pull up and say this? 

You then claim that your family was all for our marriage. However when you had stated that my parent were to visit your parents and fly over, what happened? They made the journey hoping they could finally secure some stability for their daughter, but were met with abuse and ridicule. Imagine a mother and father flying over to discuss what you said would be a marriage contract and then being told that the sons parents do not want this marriage to go ahead whatsoever? I ask you to objectively ponder and ask yourself: Is that respectful? Is that the sign of people who want the marriage to go ahead, who respect my parents at all?  You claim i am hurting and disrespecting your family, but i ask you, in the name of our creator to question whether this act itself, let alone the false promises and everything else that has occurred, is a sign of respect, or a sign of total and utter humiliation? 

I too believe in the justice of Allah, the Almighty. I believe in having a sense of humanity and a sense of empathy. Recognising that a Womans emotions are not to be played around with, and that she only wants honesty and transparency. That means you should not have given false promises of marriage and commitment if you knew your parents did not want the marriage, something mind, your brother also admitted to. This means you should understand that i put my entire life on hold for you, rejected so many other proposals, because i believed you when you said you would marry me and commit. However, all you have done is given false promises, year after year. You've failed to commit, failed to be honest, failed to be transparent, and failed to show any leadership. Any objective minded person can come to their own conclusion as to what the reality of the situation is, and i fear that even if this marriage were to go ahead, if we have problems like this before getting married, pray do well what on earth will occur after marriage? Will we have any autonomy in our marriage? Will it be constantly like this?

I have made my decision. While i am not old yet, if this dragged on further and i hit my 30s marriage would be much harder for me to get. I'm still in my 20s, and i want someone honest, someone transparent, someone who can make his own decisions, who wants to commit more than i do. Someone who can give me stability, security, who has enough empathy to recognise a just argument objectively, without the constraints of his or her own biases. That i say, is not just important to get married but will be a foundation throughout the marriage. I'm a woman, and a womans heart can be sensitive, and her emotions can be played around with. However i seek strength in Allah, and this is a lesson learned.

 

 

 

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