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In the Name of God بسم الله

Appeasing Sunnis

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My guess is they (all those who worry to sunni's view) are an ex sunni, as in the case when someone come from a culture who did a habit and then come to know new culture who do opposite of that habit. Or just his/her soul is just bullied, i wonder when they recognize/remember/know Allah SWT.

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I'm a Shia with Sunni family [half of them] though i was never a Sunni.

It isn't about appeasing anyone. It is about being diplomatic and recognising that religious belief holds a central and important position in the hearts of many. It is knowing that if we know another group has certain revered figures, and we know they adore them and place them above their own mothers and fathers, to be a little tactful before and go ahead abusing those figures. Academic discussion with Hikhmah is fine, and i am not claiming we don't have that. Anyone who wishes to do so can come and compare how much i have brought to the table academically against certain personalities, and how much they have, before they try to straw-man my point and claim i am against criticising.

As for acts like Tatbir, i wouldn't do that in front of animals, put aside Sunnis.

My Salafi cousin told me that while he knows the clear views we have about certain differences, he actually respects me far more than those who just come out and abuse and say things without Hikmah and diplomacy. 

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Generally among many Shias - this idea that we should be bold, loud and brash isn't the wisest thing. Let us examine the contextual realities that surround us and act in the best interest of Muhammed and ale Muhammed [asws] before our own personal desires. 

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I think there are some things we should ask ourselves about, as in "would Imams (as) approve of them?" 

Any Shia who has a slightly different opinion is not always concerned of what Sunnis think. I think many Shias are more concerned about our Imam's (as) judgement.

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On 1/25/2018 at 11:10 PM, ali_fatheroforphans said:

I think there are some things we should ask ourselves about, as in "would Imams (as) approve of them?" 

Any Shia who has a slightly different opinion is not always concerned of what Sunnis think. I think many Shias are more concerned about our Imam's (as) judgement.

That is perfectly reasonable. As a matter of fact, in all aspects our focus should be Allah, the Prophet (saw) and the AhlulBayt including Imams (as) of course.

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On 1/25/2018 at 9:55 PM, Intellectual Resistance said:

Generally among many Shias - this idea that we should be bold, loud and brash isn't the wisest thing

It is not the matter of being "loud" and "brash" brother. Tell me how should the students of Islamic history act upon the following command:

وَلاَ تَلْبِسُواْ الْحَقَّ بِالْبَاطِلِ وَتَكْتُمُواْ الْحَقَّ وَأَنتُمْ تَعْلَمُونَ

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On 1/26/2018 at 12:53 AM, Hussaini624 said:

Yes, I agree. I think instead of us being so used to providing proof and evidence for Sunnis, we should start asking them to provide proof for our questions :blush:

@Intellectual Resistance

We seem to think alike. Your points are valid and I agree with them.

What if they provide proof based on Sunni's way of thinking (based on their own reference) ? This is a challenge for an educated shia especially :).

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It is not the matter of being "loud" and "brash" brother. Tell me how should the students of Islamic history act upon the following command:

وَلاَ تَلْبِسُواْ الْحَقَّ بِالْبَاطِلِ وَتَكْتُمُواْ الْحَقَّ وَأَنتُمْ تَعْلَمُونَ

i found this:

The Imam (Hassan Al-Askari asws ) said: ‘Allah azwj is Addressing a group of Jews who used to clothe the truth with falsehood by claiming that Muhammad saww is a Prophet and Ali asws is a successor asws but they asws will both be coming after this time of ours by five hundred years.

Allah knows best.

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I absolutely agree with this, the fact that they think about what other Muslims say about them when really they should be focusing on their relationship with Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى

And the problem is that today there are many Shias especially among the youth is that they don't have enough evidence not just from ahadith but from the Holy Quran too, so when it comes to a Sunni asking them about their beliefs they would just say things without providing evidence.

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Wa Aleikum Salaam,

We should always practice the best of Aklaaq, should always have Aql and should always response to anyone the same way the Ahlulbait (as) did, that is what the people of righteous do. And we should always consider of what Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى want's from us and is it pleasing to Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى of what we do to others.

"O Ali, three men will be stood under the shade of the Divine Throne on the Day of Resurecction:..a man who stops doing any thing before he realizes whether it pleases or displeases Allah..." 

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How about we all try and please Ahlulbait (ams) and through them Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى instead of running behind others knowing what they think of us. 

Why not lend a uniting hand to our Shia brethren rather than jumping around others and getting humiliated. 

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On 26/01/2018 at 10:55 PM, shiaman14 said:

Brother - it is not diplomacy when you rebuke your shia brothers specifically saying what will the sunnis think of it. 

To give you another example, Trump claims to be  diplomatic and wants peace in the Middle East but then moves the embassy to Jerusalem and cuts funding to the Palestinian refugee program. Is that diplomatic?

Since you brought it up, it does seem like you discuss tatbir a lot with your sunni side of the family. Really their primary concern should not be how shias do azadari but how to prevent terrorism and suicide bombing that seems to be rampant in the Sunni world.

In the name of diplomacy, no non-Muslim ever worries that a shia will scratch their back or beat their chest but thousands and thousands of non-Muslims fear being attacked/bombed/shot by Muslims. So if anyone gives Muslims a bad name, it is not shias. That is what you should be discussing with Sunnis.

I couldn't care less about what a salafi thinks of me. However, I do agree that la'an has a time and place and should not be done ad nauseam.

I am all for discussing usul-e-deen with everyone.
I am all for discussing furuh-e-deen with everyone.
But azadari is off limits to all non-Shias. Shame on us if we let non-shias determine how we commemorate the martyrdom of Imam Hussain (as).

Think of a family, who you love. You hold them to higher standards than anyone else, because you know they represent you. If they act in a manner which brings question or shame, you are going to go harder on them than a random person, because they represent you. You love them more, you care about them more. Now let us take the example of something more greater than any of our own families, and that is the family of Muhammed [saw], the purified Ahlulbayt [asws]. If someone does something which they would not have been pleased with, or brings undue hardship onto their followers, or performs acts not sanctioned by them but almost overshadows their actual message totally and is not part of the religion, would you not speak out?

With regards to Tatbir, my Sunni family don't really care all too much given they know i'm against it and i've shown the many scholars , speakers, and many others also against it. However what they can not fathom is when i start to bring up Imam al-Hussain [as], his message of reviving al-Islam, peace, moderation, free thinking, devotion to the true path of Allah on one hand, and seeing images of children and even babies having their scalps cut open with dirty butcher knives. They can't compute whatever i claim about the pure way, the path of moderation, the middle way, of beauty, of eloquence, of wisdom, and then seeing men with hundreds of deep gashes all standing in pools of blood, before burning their soles on hot coal.  These practises totally overshadow the message of Imam al-Hussain, are not healthy way of encouraging grieving, do not represent Islamic ethics, and go against universal norms for what is civilised, as well as our Fitrah in its repulsion to gore, violence and mutilation.

As for suicide bombings, the vast and overwhelming majority of Sunnis are against it, and many of the victims of these bombings also includes Sunnis. Major work is being done by Sunnis and massive media campaigns for a very long time to firmly spread against what uneducated, radical groups do. It has nothing to do with Sunni Islam. 

In terms of Azadari, i don't think what we do to babies, our children, and ourselves [minority] is even mourning or Azadari. It's  200 years old, never sanctioned by our Aimmah, and it hurts us in ways we can't even imagine. It isn't Azadari, it's culture at the expense of Islam, and one that is wreaking havoc - and this i must put bluntly.

It isn't Sunnis who have a problem with it only, but notable scholars. I am not naming them to incite a Fatwah war, but to show that if major respectable scholars testify that these practises go against common Islamic norms, hurt our image, and are barbaric, then you only have to reflect on what the rest of the world says. Such names include Khomeini, Khamanei, Makrem Shirazi, Fadllulah, Kamal-al-Hayderi, Muhammed Najafi, Hasan Nasrallah, Esfahani, Muhsini, Mutahari, and many incredibly famous and well respected Shia figures with enormous followings and works.

Now, my main purpose for posting here was not about Tatbir, but about how we discuss differences. I'm living safely here in the UK, Alhamdulllah, i am well protected. But i know my brothers and sisters in Pakistan, in Malaysia, in Saudi Arabia will suffer if i say something without wisely considering the most wise way to powerfully get across my point, but at the same time look at the contextual reality of this world and phrase things in a manner whereby i also look to not causing discord.  Even if there was no threat of violence, harmony in society between Muslims is a worthy goal.

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On 1/28/2018 at 1:00 PM, Intellectual Resistance said:

Think of a family, who you love. You hold them to higher standards than anyone else, because you know they represent you. If they act in a manner which brings question or shame, you are going to go harder on them than a random person, because they represent you. You love them more, you care about them more.

When it comes to family, you can fight internally as much as you want but you present a united front in front of others. You definitely don't fight family because of what others may think of them. You should fight with others to ensure they don't think/speak ill of your family. That is family.

On 1/28/2018 at 1:00 PM, Intellectual Resistance said:

Now let us take the example of something more greater than any of our own families, and that is the family of Muhammed [saw], the purified Ahlulbayt [asws]. If someone does something which they would not have been pleased with, or brings undue hardship onto their followers, or performs acts not sanctioned by them but almost overshadows their actual message totally and is not part of the religion, would you not speak out?

You don't get to decide this. The marajae do and as long as one is following their marja, you have no business in it.

On 1/28/2018 at 1:00 PM, Intellectual Resistance said:

With regards to Tatbir, my Sunni family don't really care all too much given they know i'm against it and i've shown the many scholars , speakers, and many others also against it. However what they can not fathom is when i start to bring up Imam al-Hussain [as], his message of reviving al-Islam, peace, moderation, free thinking, devotion to the true path of Allah on one hand, and seeing images of children and even babies having their scalps cut open with dirty butcher knives. They can't compute whatever i claim about the pure way, the path of moderation, the middle way, of beauty, of eloquence, of wisdom, and then seeing men with hundreds of deep gashes all standing in pools of blood, before burning their soles on hot coal.  These practises totally overshadow the message of Imam al-Hussain, are not healthy way of encouraging grieving, do not represent Islamic ethics, and go against universal norms for what is civilised, as well as our Fitrah in its repulsion to gore, violence and mutilation.

Why stop at tatbir? There are plenty of sunni who cannot fathom crying for Hussain (as) after 1400 years. Let's stop that too. Why mourn Hussain (as) at all? Let's all claim to love Hussain (as), admit to loving peace and be free thinkers. Let's stop all these crazy amount of money spent each year of azadari; why go to Karbaal on Arbaeen when we can use the same money to do dawah and help someone follow the true path of Allah.

They can't even compute mourning for Hussain (as) after 1400 so who cares if they can or can not compute tatbir. Moreover, non-Muslims can't compute whatever WE claim about the pure way, the path of moderation, the middle way, of beauty, of eloquence, of wisdom, and then seeing muslims committing all kinds of terror acts around the world. These practises totally overshadow the message of Imam al-Hussain, are not healthy way of encouraging grieving, do not represent Islamic ethics, and go against universal norms for what is civilised, as well as our Fitrah in its repulsion to gore, violence and mutilation.

On 1/28/2018 at 1:00 PM, Intellectual Resistance said:

As for suicide bombings, the vast and overwhelming majority of Sunnis are against it, and many of the victims of these bombings also includes Sunnis. Major work is being done by Sunnis and massive media campaigns for a very long time to firmly spread against what uneducated, radical groups do. It has nothing to do with Sunni Islam. 

Every minute sunnis spend discussing tatbir with you is a minute they should be spending doing dawah to wanna be terrorists because like I said, non-Muslims fear suicide-bombers more than back-scratchers.

On 1/28/2018 at 1:00 PM, Intellectual Resistance said:

In terms of Azadari, i don't think what we do to babies, our children, and ourselves [minority] is even mourning or Azadari. It's  200 years old, never sanctioned by our Aimmah, and it hurts us in ways we can't even imagine. It isn't Azadari, it's culture at the expense of Islam, and one that is wreaking havoc - and this i must put bluntly.

To put it bluntly, you dont get to decide what is azadari and what isn't. You, me and the rest of us are mere servants of azadari. Our esteemed marajae are caretakers of azadari and Imam Mahdi (as) is the rightful inheritor of azadari.If you want to get rid of new customs, no one should walk from Najaf to Karbala on Arbaeen. No Aimmah sanctioned it.

How does it hurt us in ways we can't imagine. Since you have no facts to back up your claims, let me present an equally ridiculous claim. tatbir is 200 years old. shias today are stronger than we have ever been in history. This is a direct result of tatbir. Prove my ridiculous claim wrong.

On 1/28/2018 at 1:00 PM, Intellectual Resistance said:

It isn't Sunnis who have a problem with it only, but notable scholars. I am not naming them to incite a Fatwah war, but to show that if major respectable scholars testify that these practises go against common Islamic norms, hurt our image, and are barbaric, then you only have to reflect on what the rest of the world says. Such names include Khomeini, Khamanei, Makrem Shirazi, Fadllulah, Kamal-al-Hayderi, Muhammed Najafi, Hasan Nasrallah, Esfahani, Muhsini, Mutahari, and many incredibly famous and well respected Shia figures with enormous followings and works.

There is an equal list on the permitting side as well so that means nothing.

On 1/28/2018 at 1:00 PM, Intellectual Resistance said:

Now, my main purpose for posting here was not about Tatbir, but about how we discuss differences. I'm living safely here in the UK, Alhamdulllah, i am well protected. But i know my brothers and sisters in Pakistan, in Malaysia, in Saudi Arabia will suffer if i say something without wisely considering the most wise way to powerfully get across my point, but at the same time look at the contextual reality of this world and phrase things in a manner whereby i also look to not causing discord.  Even if there was no threat of violence, harmony in society between Muslims is a worthy goal.

We should always be wise about what we say, when we say it and to whom we say it. We should not offend any one but at the same time, not be fearful about speaking the truth either. I am not sure I completed buy the myth that shias are killed because of la'an because even if all the shias in the shias in the world agreed to never do la'an again, we will still get killed. While this is the excuse used nowadays, fact is that ba'atil is always against haq. Ba'atil is always jealous haq.

The Imams and ahlul-bayt were persecuted because of the jealousy of ba'atil including Imam Hussain (as), Imam Ali (as) and Hz Fatima Zehra (as). La'an did not come first. Ba'atil's persecution of haq came first. That is why we send la'an on ba'atil. Take this all the way back to when Qabeel killed Habeel - jealousy not la'an.

Be respectful to every one but do not get away from speaking the truth either.

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On 2018-01-25 at 10:43 PM, shiaman14 said:

Salaam,

Anyone else notice a trend that there are some shias who are too worried about what Sunnis think of us? These are shias who hate on other shias because they perceive their actions to be something the Sunnis disapprove off.

When the issue of bayat (allegiance) came up, Imam Hussain (as) did not say "well 99% of Muslims have given bayat so I should as well. What will they think of me otherwise?". He said, "One like me can never give bayat to one like Yazid." He really didn't care what anyone else did or say.

If you are comfortable and confident about being a Shia, it doesn't matter what Sunnis think of us. Stand tall and hold your head up high - you are a shia.

Thank you Allah for giving us Imam Hussein.

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On 1/29/2018 at 6:49 PM, shiaman14 said:

We should always be wise about what we say, when we say it and to whom we say it. We should not offend any one but at the same time, not be fearful about speaking the truth either. I am not sure I completed buy the myth that shias are killed because of la'an because even if all the shias in the shias in the world agreed to never do la'an again, we will still get killed. While this is the excuse used nowadays, fact is that ba'atil is always against haq. Ba'atil is always jealous haq.

The Imams and ahlul-bayt were persecuted because of the jealousy of ba'atil including Imam Hussain (as), Imam Ali (as) and Hz Fatima Zehra (as). La'an did not come first. Ba'atil's persecution of haq came first. That is why we send la'an on ba'atil. Take this all the way back to when Qabeel killed Habeel - jealousy not la'an.

Be respectful to every one but do not get away from speaking the truth either.

 

On 1/29/2018 at 6:49 PM, shiaman14 said:

How does it hurt us in ways we can't imagine. Since you have no facts to back up your claims, let me present an equally ridiculous claim. tatbir is 200 years old. shias today are stronger than we have ever been in history. This is a direct result of tatbir. Prove my ridiculous claim wrong.

Salam walking  of Arbaeen by foot & Azadari comes from Ahlulbayt (as) but Tatbir doesnt have any connection to their teachings it was introduced by Turk shias that they bring it from their rituals that practiced before that they became muslim . it was started from Safavid era that they were from suffi branches

Background—The Safavid Sufi Order

Safavid history begins with the establishment of the Safaviyya by its eponymous founder Safi-ad-din Ardabili (1252–1334). In 700/1301, Safi al-Din assumed the leadership of the Zahediyeh, a significant Sufi order in Gilan, from his spiritual master and father-in-law Zahed Gilani. Due to the great spiritual charisma of Safi al-Din, the order was later known as the Safaviyya. The Safavid order soon gained great influence in the city of Ardabil, and Hamdullah Mustaufi noted that most of the people of Ardabil were followers of Safi al-Din.

Religious poetry from Safi al-Din, written in the Old Azari language[54][55]—a now-extinct Northwestern Iranian language—and accompanied by a paraphrase in Persian that helps its understanding, has survived to this day and has linguistic importance.[54]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safavid_dynasty

Although all prosperous of Shia Islam by them some wrong ritual such as Tatbir inserted by them to Azadari. 

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On 2/4/2018 at 4:35 AM, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam walking  of Arbaeen by foot & Azadari comes from Ahlulbayt (as) but Tatbir doesnt have any connection to their teachings it was introduced by Turk shias that they bring it from their rituals that practiced before that they became muslim . it was started from Safavid era that they were from suffi branches

which Imam walked from Najaf to Karbala?

On 2/4/2018 at 4:35 AM, Ashvazdanghe said:

Although all prosperous of Shia Islam by them some wrong ritual such as Tatbir inserted by them to Azadari. 

sorry brother - you don't get to decide right and wrong in azadari. just like I don't get to decide.

Anyway, this topic is more some shias trying to appease Sunnis for a variety of reasons and not about tatbir.

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9 hours ago, shiaman14 said:

which Imam walked from Najaf to Karbala?

Imam Sadiq (a) speaks about the rewards of Imam Hussein's pilgrimage on foot: whoever goes on the hill to visit the Imam Hussein (AS), God will write to him every step he takes and leave a blame for him. He says that when he goes to the pilgrimage, he declares that the divine angel is the one who says that he writes what is good from his mouth and that he does not write what is evil and evil, and when Return to him with a farewell and say to him: "O Allah! Your sins have been forgiven and you are the people of the party of God and his party of the Prophet and his party of Allah, your Messenger, swear to God! You will never see the fire, and the fire will never see you and will not bite you. (Kamel Al-Zayaraat, p. 134)

Imam Baqir (AS) said: "Order Shiites to visit the grave of Hossein ibn Ali. Because his pilgrimage is a duty on any believer who confesses to the ( Imamate by Allah) of Hussein (aa)."

https://www.jamaran.ir/بخش-اخبار-5/111752-ثواب-پیاده-روی-اربعین-از-نگاه-امام-صادق-نظر-مراجع-درباره-اربعین-حسینی

https://www.tasnimnews.com/fa/news/1395/08/13/1230531/فضیلت-زیارت-سالار-شهیدان-ع-به-روایت-معصومین

http://www.tabnak.ir/fa/news/366181/فضیلت-پیاده-روی-اربعین-وزیارت-سیدالشهداء

https://www.mashreghnews.ir/news/182375/اهمیت-پیاده-روی-نجف-تا-کربلا-از-منظر-آیت-الله-بهجت

9 hours ago, shiaman14 said:

sorry brother - you don't get to decide right and wrong in azadari. just like I don't get to decide.

Anyway, this topic is more some shias trying to appease Sunnis for a variety of reasons and not about tatbir.

but nothing exists about Tatbir from Ahlulbayt (as)

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8 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Imam Sadiq (a) speaks about the rewards of Imam Hussein's pilgrimage on foot: whoever goes on the hill to visit the Imam Hussein (AS), God will write to him every step he takes and leave a blame for him. He says that when he goes to the pilgrimage, he declares that the divine angel is the one who says that he writes what is good from his mouth and that he does not write what is evil and evil, and when Return to him with a farewell and say to him: "O Allah! Your sins have been forgiven and you are the people of the party of God and his party of the Prophet and his party of Allah, your Messenger, swear to God! You will never see the fire, and the fire will never see you and will not bite you. (Kamel Al-Zayaraat, p. 134)

Imam Baqir (AS) said: "Order Shiites to visit the grave of Hossein ibn Ali. Because his pilgrimage is a duty on any believer who confesses to the ( Imamate by Allah) of Hussein (aa)."

I am not denying the merits of going to pilgrimage to Karbala. I have been there three times myself. I need a specific reference about walking from Najaf to Karbala on Arbaeen which millions and millions of shias are doing since the fall of Saddam. Please be specific.

If there is no specific hadith, then please understand that we are told do azadari - the specifics can change overtime and still be okay.

This topic is not about tatbir.

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On 2018-01-26 at 3:28 AM, myouvial said:

My guess is they (all those who worry to sunni's view) are an ex sunni, as in the case when someone come from a culture who did a habit and then come to know new culture who do opposite of that habit. Or just his/her soul is just bullied, i wonder when they recognize/remember/know Allah SWT.

Thats not the case with me.

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