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Mansur Bakhtiari

Why do so many admire Ibn Arabi

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bismillah and salam

I know there are differences among scholars regarding Ibn Arabi, but there are so many odd things in his books it seems absurd to consider him Muslim. The reason I'm bringing this up is that a while back there were a lot of discussions on discord about this issue among Sunni's, then one of the Sunni's who was a Sufi converted to Tashayyu alhamdulillah, but kept the same beliefs as when he was a follower of Ibn Arabi, so we were discussion wahdat al-wujood etc with him, but also some of the kufr statements of Ibn Arabi. From my understanding, when quoting his book Fusus al-Hikam, you must compare the book to what he says in his later work the Futuhat al-Makkiyah, which he himself declared his final work. So for example in Fusus al-Hikam he says "The consolation of Pharaoh was with the belief Allah gave him when he was drowning. So Allah took him pure and purified. There was no impurity in him since He took him in his belief before he had acquired any wrong actions," (you can find the pdf easily, Chapter of Moses (as)), meaning that Pharaoh (la) was taken to heaven pure, as in a believer. However Ibn Arabi says that he was a kafir in the Futuhat, so that means he didn't have that belief later on. However considering how much praise and how many commentaries have been written on it (even one by Khomeini) I'll mention some of the odd things which he said in it.

Quote

 

"His Lord made him love women as Allah loves the one who is in His form. Love only occurred by the One by whom he is formed. His love was for the One he was formed by, and He is Allah. This is why the Prophet said, "He made me love...," and he did not say, "I loved" as coming from himself because his love is connected to his Lord in Whose form he is. In his love for his wife, he loves her by Allah's love for him as a divine nature. (Since his nature (khuluq) was immense or mighty ('adhim) as Allah said, "You are truly immense in character," (68:4) and as 'A'isha said of the Prophet, "His nature was the Qur'an)."

https://bewley.virtualave.net/fusus27.html

 

It's amazing how much he misinterprets "You are truly immense in character," and "His (the Nabi (saw)) nature was the Qur'an," as "women are created in the form of Allah." 
 

Quote

Then Harun said to Musa, "I was afraid that you would say: You have caused division in the Tribe of Israel,'" (20:94) and you would make me the cause of their division since the worship of the Calf divided them. There were some of them who worshiped it following and imitating the Samiri, and there were some of them who refused to worship it until Musa returned to them so that they might question him regarding it. Harun was afraid that he would have that division between them attributed to him. 

Musa knew the matter better than Harun because by his knowledge he knew THE ONE the people of the Calf worshiped since Allah decreed that only He would be worshiped. When Allah decrees something, it must occur

kufr.jpg.980ccf777fb34eb7fdb6a67c0cc63c85.jpg

So here Ibn Arabi claims that the people of Musa (as) who worshiped the Calf were actually worshiping Allah. What kind of "sheikh al-akbar" would ignore the clearest of verses in the Quran

Quote

 

قَدْ فَتَنَّا قَوْمَكَ مِنْ بَعْدِكَ وَأَضَلَّهُمُ السَّامِرِيُّ {85}

[Yusufali 20:85] (Allah) said: "We have tested thy people in thy absence: the Samiri has led them astray."

فَرَجَعَ مُوسَىٰ إِلَىٰ قَوْمِهِ غَضْبَانَ أَسِفًا ۚ قَالَ يَا قَوْمِ أَلَمْ يَعِدْكُمْ رَبُّكُمْ وَعْدًا حَسَنًا ۚ أَفَطَالَ عَلَيْكُمُ الْعَهْدُ أَمْ أَرَدْتُمْ أَنْ يَحِلَّ عَلَيْكُمْ غَضَبٌ مِنْ رَبِّكُمْ فَأَخْلَفْتُمْ مَوْعِدِي {86}

[Yusufali 20:86] So Moses returned to his people in a state of indignation and sorrow. He said: "O my people! did not your Lord make a handsome promise to you? Did then the promise seem to you long (in coming)? Or did ye desire that Wrath should descend from your Lord on you, and so ye broke your promise to me?"

قَالُوا مَا أَخْلَفْنَا مَوْعِدَكَ بِمَلْكِنَا وَلَٰكِنَّا حُمِّلْنَا أَوْزَارًا مِنْ زِينَةِ الْقَوْمِ فَقَذَفْنَاهَا فَكَذَٰلِكَ أَلْقَى السَّامِرِيُّ {87}

[Yusufali 20:87] They said: "We broke not the promise to thee, as far as lay in our power: but we were made to carry the weight of the ornaments of the (whole) people, and we threw them (into the fire), and that was what the Samiri suggested.

فَأَخْرَجَ لَهُمْ عِجْلًا جَسَدًا لَهُ خُوَارٌ فَقَالُوا هَٰذَا إِلَٰهُكُمْ وَإِلَٰهُ مُوسَىٰ فَنَسِيَ {88}

[Yusufali 20:88] "Then he brought out (of the fire) before the (people) the image of a calf: It seemed to low: so they said: This is your god, and the god of Moses, but (Moses) has forgotten!"

أَفَلَا يَرَوْنَ أَلَّا يَرْجِعُ إِلَيْهِمْ قَوْلًا وَلَا يَمْلِكُ لَهُمْ ضَرًّا وَلَا نَفْعًا {89}

[Yusufali 20:89] Could they not see that it could not return them a word (for answer), and that it had no power either to harm them or to do them good?

 

So these are both statements from Fusus al-Hikam, the book of Ibn Arabi, so why do we see people praising his works so much, and scholars writing commentaries on a book filled with this much kufr? There is also the issue of wahdatul wujood, which is a separate issue from these specific words because there is a difference of opinion among scholars, but still our major scholars today like Kamal al-Haydari respect and revere someone who said these kinds of ignorant words? I can't comprehend it

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9 minutes ago, Sumerian said:

Not even his worst kufri statements.

Hmm, I was just thinking since I know you're Arab, can you translate something for me? It's one of Ibn Arabi's poems from Futuhat.


الرب حق والعبد حق ياليت شعري من المكلف 
إن قلت عبد فذاك ميت أو قلت رب أنى يكلف

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10 minutes ago, Mansur Bakhtiari said:

Hmm, I was just thinking since I know you're Arab, can you translate something for me? It's one of Ibn Arabi's poems from Futuhat.


الرب حق والعبد حق ياليت شعري من المكلف 
إن قلت عبد فذاك ميت أو قلت رب أنى يكلف

It's really difficult to translate poems bro.

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Found a translation of this poem and also a thread with the worst of his kufri remarks

Quote


الرب حق والعبد حـق* يا ليت شعري من المكلف

إن قلت عبد فذاك ميت * وإن قلت رب أنى يكلف

فهو يطيع نفسه إذا شاء بخلقه

"Allah is the Truth, and so is the servant, I don't know who is to worship who!

If you say: "the servant" I'd say 'he's dead'. If you say 'Allah' is to worship, I'd say 'how'?

The answer is: Allah worships Himself through his creations"

 

I guess Wahdatul Wujood in itself validates idol worship (since everything is Allah astaghfirullah), but that poem must explain his love for the worshipers of the calf.

 

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3 minutes ago, Mansur Bakhtiari said:

I heard somewhere that Deobandi's respect Ibn Arabi no? I don't know much about all these subcontinent groups lol.

Yeah they do, but not All. I am one of those who hate.

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4 minutes ago, Mansur Bakhtiari said:

I heard somewhere that Deobandi's respect Ibn Arabi no? I don't know much about all these subcontinent groups lol.

There are 2 types of Deobandis.

First are those who are very much close to Sufis or Barelvis like Bidah zikr, building shrines, Intercession etc.
Second are those who are Very Much Salafi or Wahhabi Minded. Destroying Shrines, not celebrating Mawlid, no Intercession etc.

I am the Second One.

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Ibn Arabi isn't for everyone. Perhaps when you're more philosophically inclined you can start reading his works. I myself don't have much philosophical knowledge so I cannot explain or defend his statements. Those deep in spirituality and philosophy seem to understand him better than anyone. 

Just my two cents.

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4 hours ago, Ibn Al-Shahid said:

Ibn Arabi isn't for everyone. Perhaps when you're more philosophically inclined you can start reading his works. I myself don't have much philosophical knowledge so I cannot explain or defend his statements. Those deep in spirituality and philosophy seem to understand him better than anyone. 

Just my two cents.

I hear that a lot, but the thing is if someone says words of kufr they don't get a free pass by saying that you need to be philosophically inclined to understand it. 

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3 hours ago, Mansur Bakhtiari said:

I hear that a lot, but the thing is if someone says words of kufr they don't get a free pass by saying that you need to be philosophically inclined to understand it. 

The only problem is what seems to be isn’t what actually is. That is why you NEED to have studied philosophy before reading his work. Right now it seems like kufr, sure, but neither of us is a Aalim or have studied philosophy under a Aalim, so we can’t say our piece with any knowledge. We can only see the surface meaning.

Edited by Ibn Al-Shahid

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Guest silasun
13 hours ago, Sumerian said:

Not even his worst kufri statements.

You make such insightful comments.

*claps*

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8 hours ago, silasun said:

You make such insightful comments.

*claps*

I agree, I should be more like Ibn Arabi, I should imagine myself as a magical spirit dancing around in the way to Allah and then connect with Him and His dhaat (wal iyadhu billah) in a weird Sufi way so that I can get certified in these circles.

Or should I be more like Mansur Al-Hallaj and declare myself as Haqq itself (wal iyadhu billah)?

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8 hours ago, Haji 2003 said:

Is that a slow handclap, or with feeling?

You should ask his Sufi brothers, they sure know how to clap in their gatherings. Each clap gets them closer to the truth.

Edited by Sumerian

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Haven't read his works, but if it is as i fear, then congratulations Shias for shooting yourselves in the foot [no surprise there]. You had perfect Tawheed and decided to follow a man many Ulema refer to as a Zindiq.  However if after gaining this knowledge it is just that his statements are taken out of context, then inshAllah i might post about it. At the moment undecided, though its worth posting about warnings.

Edited by Intellectual Resistance

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10 hours ago, IbnSina said:

There is nothing ibn arabi can say about Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى that Imam Ali ibn Abu Taleb(as) has not already said better:

 

 

This brings tears to me as we are human indebted to Him, who had given us everything from your soul, body, sustenance in life (air, water etc), environment (sun, moon, night, noon, dark and light), And reminding me of an ayat in Al Qur'an : fa bi ayyi ...tukazziban.

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4 minutes ago, Shi3i_jadeed said:

Ibn Arabi said rafidah shia had the souls of dogs and pigs, he claimed God revealed it to him in fact. Can any fans of Ibn Arabi explain how they take religion from such a person? Frankly I don't see how shia can even respect him. 

Listen to all of this but if you want the part about Ibn Arabi skip to 4:48

 

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13 minutes ago, Shi3i_jadeed said:

Ibn Arabi said rafidah shia had the souls of dogs and pigs, he claimed God revealed it to him in fact. Can any fans of Ibn Arabi explain how they take religion from such a person? Frankly I don't see how shia can even respect him.

Its what respected about him is his spirituality but we don't follow his teachings.

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Guest silasun

Ayatollah Jawadi Amoli and Ayatollah HassanZadeh Amoli have both proven that he was a 12er Shia. He has works where he mentions the names of the 12 Imams. You can't take one book that is attributed to him in isolation and use that to reach a conclusion about a person. You would need to prove that it wasn't said out of taqiyyah (Sayyid Haydar Amuli R was executed for his views) and that it was actually written by him.

Those two scholars are world leaders on the thought of Ibn Arabi. To see SCers with a little Arabic knowledge enter such a discussion is very disappointing, with all due respect.

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It's said that Ibn Arabi and Shahab Suhrawardi was together once and their meeting was held in complete silence. After the meeting, both was asked separately, what they thought about each other. Do anyone here know what each of them said about the other?

Both Shahab Suhrawardi and Ibn Arabi were great *Illuminationist in Islam.

We should be asking ourselves, what is that.*

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On 1/23/2018 at 11:40 PM, Mansur Bakhtiari said:

Found a translation of this poem and also a thread with the worst of his kufri remarks

I guess Wahdatul Wujood in itself validates idol worship (since everything is Allah astaghfirullah), but that poem must explain his love for the worshipers of the calf.

 

People of the wool often speak in the secret language that's only meant for the pure at heart. Instead of sayying heart they would say dog, words that sound alike. The secret language these people would use would be whatever the particular master would say use, in the case of the heart and dog, they would use the arabic language.

I thought I read somebody say that the arabic word* for pig was used, I don't know if that was meant for a joke or not because today, in America, very evil people are throwing the heads of pigs in places of worship.

There were many many people present at that place 1400 years ago, putting the  whole universe in its most perfect order and that very day and moment is being denied today. That place was *Ghadir Khuum. 

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10 hours ago, silasun said:

Those two scholars are world leaders on the thought of Ibn Arabi. To see SCers with a little Arabic knowledge enter such a discussion is very disappointing, with all due respect.

Internet high schoolers think they know so much. It’s fun to play judge, jury, and executioner on whomever they like. 

At most, people here can form preliminary opinions, but not enough to form a decisive conclusion. You got to study this intensely for years.

Semester has started again people. Back to work. 

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10 hours ago, silasun said:

Ayatollah Jawadi Amoli and Ayatollah HassanZadeh Amoli have both proven that he was a 12er Shia. He has works where he mentions the names of the 12 Imams. You can't take one book that is attributed to him in isolation and use that to reach a conclusion about a person. You would need to prove that it wasn't said out of taqiyyah (Sayyid Haydar Amuli R was executed for his views) and that it was actually written by him.

Those two scholars are world leaders on the thought of Ibn Arabi. To see SCers with a little Arabic knowledge enter such a discussion is very disappointing, with all due respect.

Interesting. So now we should ignore other scholars that called him a heretic and keep playing this game?

Or should we instead engage on a discussion discussing his views, and why we believe they are filled with kufr?

Edited by Sumerian

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13 hours ago, silasun said:

Ayatollah Jawadi Amoli and Ayatollah HassanZadeh Amoli have both proven that he was a 12er Shia. He has works where he mentions the names of the 12 Imams. You can't take one book that is attributed to him in isolation and use that to reach a conclusion about a person. You would need to prove that it wasn't said out of taqiyyah (Sayyid Haydar Amuli R was executed for his views) and that it was actually written by him.

Those two scholars are world leaders on the thought of Ibn Arabi. To see SCers with a little Arabic knowledge enter such a discussion is very disappointing, with all due respect.

I fail to see how that proves that Ibn Arabi was a 12er shi'i. Sufis generally hold ahlul bayt in high regard and many even hold the 12 imams in very high regard. In fact some believe in the existence of the 12th imam, some claimed that Al-Askari had more then one son. They would just say that the rafidah perverted the "true" teachings of the imams which in their opinion would be sunni sufism. I've heard that those scholars have "proven" ibn arabi was shia before but I haven't seen any evidence of that, can you provide any? Otherwise its a baseless claim. 

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Guest silasun

...الامام الحسین علیه السلام: لا تتکلمن فیما لا یعنیک! فانی اخاف علیک الوزر. و لا تتکلمن فیما یعنیک حتی تری للکلام موضعاً؛ فرب متکلم قد تکلم بالحق فعیب

Edited by silasun

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On 1/24/2018 at 7:07 PM, Intellectual Resistance said:

Haven't read his works, but if it is as i fear, then congratulations Shias for shooting yourselves in the foot [no surprise there]. You had perfect Tawheed and decided to follow a man many Ulema refer to as a Zindiq.  However if after gaining this knowledge it is just that his statements are taken out of context, then inshAllah i might post about it. At the moment undecided, though its worth posting about warnings.

A problem with certain Muslims apparently is taking words of philosophers over Quran and Hadith. I never thought it was widespread until a Shia convert on discord started obsessing over some Jewish philosopher Spinoza. Then someone told me there are a lot of Muslims becoming deviated by philosophy. "And hold firmly to the rope of Allah all together and do not become divided."

On 1/25/2018 at 12:20 AM, Shi3i_jadeed said:

Ibn Arabi said rafidah shia had the souls of dogs and pigs, he claimed God revealed it to him in fact. Can any fans of Ibn Arabi explain how they take religion from such a person? Frankly I don't see how shia can even respect him. 

Do you have a source for that? I've heard that everywhere but can't find a source.

On 1/25/2018 at 10:04 AM, silasun said:

Ayatollah Jawadi Amoli and Ayatollah HassanZadeh Amoli have both proven that he was a 12er Shia. He has works where he mentions the names of the 12 Imams. You can't take one book that is attributed to him in isolation and use that to reach a conclusion about a person. You would need to prove that it wasn't said out of taqiyyah (Sayyid Haydar Amuli R was executed for his views) and that it was actually written by him.

Those two scholars are world leaders on the thought of Ibn Arabi. To see SCers with a little Arabic knowledge enter such a discussion is very disappointing, with all due respect.

I know there are scholars who believe he was a 12er Shia, do you have any links to those specific scholars' discussions about him? I'd be interested. I think this refutes the question of him being Shia though http://www.islamquest.net/en/archive/question/fa4018

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On 1/25/2018 at 11:04 PM, Maki D Cabarete said:

People of the wool often speak in the secret language that's only meant for the pure at heart. Instead of sayying heart they would say dog, words that sound alike. The secret language these people would use would be whatever the particular master would say use, in the case of the heart and dog, they would use the arabic language.

I thought I read somebody say that the arabic word* for pig was used, I don't know if that was meant for a joke or not because today, in America, very evil people are throwing the heads of pigs in places of worship.

There were many many people present at that place 1400 years ago, putting the  whole universe in its most perfect order and that very day and moment is being denied today. That place was *Ghadir Khuum. 

Secret language of the people of the "wool," in making a point, is often intended for the time, place and person that it's intended for, after it reached its intended purpose, it can be discarded.

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17 hours ago, Mansur Bakhtiari said:

Do you have a source for that? I've heard that everywhere but can't find a source.

http://shiaonlinelibrary.com/الكتب/4688_الفتوحات-المكية-ابن-العربي-ج-٢/الصفحة_8
This is ibn arabi's work futuhat al-makiyya. I feel the people who say he was actually a 12er shia which I've seen no evidence of. The reality is Ibn Arabi was a man who believed God revealed to him that the rafidah have the souls of pigs. He also praises the enemies of ahlul bayt at length. He even considered Muawiyah and Mutawakkil to be saints of the highest order. My problem with ibn arabi fans is whenever anyway criticizes him they just retort "ahh you are not spiritually advanced to understand our great shaykh" even though the most erudite shia saints have harshly condemned ibn arabi and considered him a heretic.

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