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Intellectual Resistance

Marriage - Bias against women who do not wear veil

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16 minutes ago, Intellectual Resistance said:

about assuming everything about someone if they aren't wearing one, and treating them badly. 

I am sorry to tell you but people will always judge you first and foremost by your exterior and that judgement will hold until something ells is shown thru your behavior. That is how the real world works.

Your exterior is a reflection of your interior, in the west where you can dress as you wish (within limits), nobody is forcing you to wear the clothes your wearing or not wearing so it is your choice which will reflect on your mindset and your priorities, and so, people will judge you greatly based on that.

Of course there are always exceptions but the above holds in general.

 

So for a random person judging a random person based on looks in a society where you may or may not wear hijab, it is safe to generally assume that a muslim women who wears hijab is more religiously invested than someone who is not wearing one, just like it is safe to assume that a muslim that is wearing an abayya is more religiously invested than someone who is wearing skin tight hijab with full face make up. To me this judgement is rational in the scenario where hijab is optional, could you explain why it is not rational to assume this in the scenario of optional hijab?

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5 minutes ago, IbnSina said:

I am sorry to tell you but people will always judge you first and foremost by your exterior and that judgement will hold until something ells is shown thru your behavior. That is how the real world works.

Your exterior is a reflection of your interior, in the west where you can dress as you wish (within limits), nobody is forcing you to wear the clothes your wearing or not wearing so it is your choice which will reflect on your mindset and your priorities, and so, people will judge you greatly based on that.

Of course there are always exceptions but the above holds in general.

 

So for a random person judging a random person based on looks in a society where you may or may not wear hijab, it is safe to generally assume that a muslim women who wears hijab is more religiously invested than someone who is not wearing one, just like it is safe to assume that a muslim that is wearing an abayya is more religiously invested than someone who is wearing skin tight hijab with full face make up. To me this judgement is rational in the scenario where hijab is optional, could you explain why it is not rational to assume this in the scenario of optional hijab?

On average? Maybe. But always? Certainly not.

There are any reasons why some women wear the Hijab. For one, it could be family pressure and just adapting to it to the extent it just becomes part of their day. Donning the Hijab doesn't mean they chose it out of piety and love for Allah, because cultural pressure, family, and just being habituated to how they were brought up are factors for many women out there. Yet you even see many 'Hijabis' who wear caked-face make up, tight clothes, laugh and flirt with guys.  Furthermore, how does being culturally habituated to wear something translate to ones inner piety? That assumes what they were is made out of a choice purely for higher reasons, and as i've just said this isn't always the case.  However you have hit the nail on the head. We judge on looks all the time. So we assume things just by looking. I say these assumptions aren't the best to make.

If someone wants to marry someone and feels Hijab is important - go for it. However don't be fooled by it, because the Hijab can just be a mask and there are so many more important factors here. Hijab to some must be a necessary condition , but it certainly isn't a sufficient one.

At the same time a woman might dress with loose clothing, but show her hair because that's how she was brought up. She might never flirt with guys, never backbite, pray regularly,  and be a genuinely decent human being. However her family and her culture is such that she never covered her hair or equated it with being immoral, though she might know it is Wajib to cover it. Similar to all those Shia men who regularly shave their beards. Who knows if she fears her life, or if she is maybe making a path towards waring it, or maybe she is now turning to religion and taking steps? 

Bottom line:

1. Hijab is Wajib

2. However so are many other important qualities

3. There is more than what just appears on the surface

4. We should treat others respectfully, try not to judge them too quickly, and allow Allah to be the final judge.

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2 minutes ago, Intellectual Resistance said:

Anything in religion is a personal choice.

If you go by this the being a Muslim is a matter of personal choice!! Once you accept Islam it means you have to submit to the Allah and his orders. Islam means submission to Allah. You can't pick and choose to follow the wajibaats that suit you and discard others,  you can't say I won't do it because I am not convinced about a certain commandment, you cannot say I will only follow it after I understand the rationale behind a wajib act. 

@Intellectual Resistance @Islandsandmirrors   The main reason we have been disagreeing over this because you are looking at hijab from other's people's perspective. What X hijabi is doing.What Z person thinks of non hijabis.What you think of hijabis. How the society looks at hijabis.  Why non hijabis are looked down by people. 

I, on the other hand have been going on  and on trying to tell you that Allah made this wajib so it is not worth a moment's thought about what people say or don't say or think or don't think. You don't do hijab for people, you do it for Allah's orders and with this intention in mind you get closer to Allah irrespective of what this hijabi or that hijabi is doing being closed doors or irrespective of how much ibadat a certain non hijabi does or a hijabi does.In the end you have to answer for yourself. If tomorrow people start judging you for namaz  and that is going to happen before the twelfth (as) returns you do not stop offering namaz because people mock you for it or because another namazi drinks or fornicates.

The only choice to be made here is whether or you go by people's opinions or do an act 'Qurbatan- illalha' which sets you free from all nuisances such people's judgments, cultural standards, societal pressures etc.

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2 minutes ago, starlight said:

If you go by this the being a Muslim is a matter of personal choice!! Once you accept Islam it means you have to submit to the Allah and his orders. Islam means submission to Allah. You can't pick and choose to follow the wajibaats that suit you and discard others,  you can't say I won't do it because I am not convinced about a certain commandment, you cannot say I will only follow it after I understand the rationale behind a wajib act. 

@Intellectual Resistance @Islandsandmirrors   The main reason we have been disagreeing over this because you are looking at hijab from other's people's perspective. What X hijabi is doing.What Z person thinks of non hijabis.What you think of hijabis. How the society looks at hijabis.  Why non hijabis are looked down by people. 

I, on the other hand have been going on  and on trying to tell you that Allah made this wajib so it is not worth a moment's thought about what people say or don't say or think or don't think. You don't do hijab for people, you do it for Allah's orders and with this intention in mind you get closer to Allah irrespective of what this hijabi or that hijabi is doing being closed doors or irrespective of how much ibadat a certain non hijabi does or a hijabi does.In the end you have to answer for yourself. If tomorrow people start judging you for namaz  and that is going to happen before the twelfth (as) returns you do not stop offering namaz because people mock you for it or because another namazi drinks or fornicates.

The only choice to be made here is whether or you go by people's opinions or do an act 'Qurbatan- illalha' which sets you free from all nuisances such people's judgments, cultural standards, societal pressures etc.

It is a matter of personal choice. If you don't submit to Allahs commands you will be held accountable , but the whole idea of life is having free will and personal choice and thus accountability.  I'm not sure i disagree with what you are saying at all here. I am approaching this from an entirely different angle.

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2 minutes ago, Intellectual Resistance said:

If someone wants to marry someone and feels Hijab is important - go for it. However don't be fooled by it, because the Hijab can just be a mask and there are so many more important factors here. Hijab to some must be a necessary condition , but it certainly isn't a sufficient one.

Yes, I agree with this but in the world where men can chose from many women, a religious shia man would first and foremost look for a hijabi and yes that hijab might be because of her cultural background and upbringing but in fact, cultural background of modest dressing and a upbringing where the parents value and respect the wajib aspect of hijab (even if they dont know and/or have not explained it to their daughter) are also important aspects to consider when considering a women for marriage because that cultural background and upbringing will stick with her and subsequently in her teaching to your offspring.

 

7 minutes ago, Intellectual Resistance said:

4. We should treat others respectfully, try not to judge them too quickly, and allow Allah to be the final judge.

I totally agree about respecting each other but this is a discussion about martial choice with regards to hijabis and non hijabis and in this case every person has to making a personal judgmental call regarding this issue. True, it is rational to say that even a women who neglects the wajib aspect of the hijab (for whatever reason) might otherwise be pious but it is also rational to say that among the hijabis there are more pious women than among the non hijabis, so if I as a man who values a future religious wife have to look for among them, then I am going to prioritize the hijabis because chances are greater to find a pious women among them.

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Just now, starlight said:

Okay.

Sister being a matter of personal choice is not mutually exclusive with it being Wajib. Maybe a better word would be, people have the free will. It doesn't mean they won't be accountable. 

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On 2018-02-10 at 12:57 PM, Islandsandmirrors said:

Because you are not seeing the big picture. 

You don’t think that those hijabis who go out and do all kinds of haram behind people’s backs and cause enmity between others are displeasing Allah? 

@starlight is simply having a narrow mind and won't accept logic and reason. She believes that without Hijab woman are not muslim and Allah Commands and orders us to follow everything like blind sheep. Starlight one finger is not like the rest, sa7? so instead of arguing and dividing Muslims over the sake of a piece of cloth why don't we just all support all Muslims and agree to disagree. Read a little more Quran sister and try actually practicing the teaching and words, instead of judging others.

003:103 

"And hold firmly, all together, by the rope which God (stretches out for you), and be not divided among yourselves; and remember with gratitude God's favour on you; for you were enemies and He joined your hearts in love, so that by His Grace, you became brothers; and you were on the brink of the pit of Fire, and He saved you from it. Thus does God make His verses clear to you so that you may be guided"

 

All of the verses which say that a human being is responsible for his or her deeds:

کل نفس بما کسبت رهینه

المدثر 74/38

“Every soul will be (held) in pledge for its deeds.” (74:38)

کل امری بما کسب رهین

الطور 52/21

“(Yet) in each individual in pledge for his deeds.” (52:21)

e. Verses like,

انا هدیناه السبیل اما شاکرا و اما کفورا

الانسان 76/3

“We showed him the Way: whether he be grateful or ungrateful (rests on his will).” (76:3)

و ما تشاؤن الا ان یشاء الله

الانسان 76/30

“But you will not except as God Wills...” (76:30)

 

 

Therefore we HAVE FREEWILL! Only Humans and Jinns were given this freewill. Accept it and move on.

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22 minutes ago, shouzan said:

over the sake of a piece of cloth

There is no point replying to the rest of your post when you think of hijab as a mere piece of cloth.

I did not do takfir on anyone so please don't accuse me of doing so. 

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4 minutes ago, starlight said:

There is no point replying to the rest of your post when you think of hijab as a mere piece of cloth.

I did not do takfir on anyone so please don't accuse me of doing so. 

You can't reply because you have no actual replay to Quran verses stating we have freewill. infact many many of my discussions with you you don't actually reply any of the valid point you simply reply a small point you take issue with. Again you can't argue the clear words of the Quran, and You are judging me right there in your own words as quoted. You are Takfir because you think less of me for not wearing hijab and you can't even bring urself to reply any logical point have because you are Judging me, hypocrisy is what it is.

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1 minute ago, shouzan said:

You can't reply because you have no actual replay to Quran verses stating we have freewill. infact many many of my discussions with you you don't actually reply any of the valid point you simply reply a small point you take issue with. Again you can't argue the clear words of the Quran, and You are judging me right there in your own words as quoted. You are Takfir because you think less of me for not wearing hijab and you can't even bring urself to reply any logical point have because you are Judging me, hypocrisy is what it is.

 

*Drops Mic  :hahaha:

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I think its surprising that a man would reject a girl for simply not wearing hijab, there are girls who wear hijab who commit unmentionable acts whereas there are girls who do not wear the hijab who are good and pious. Hijab doesn't make you a good person, and hijab comes with a package, you have to fix your character and everything to wear hijab, hijab is not simply a cloth drawn over your head, I believe it has much more meaning and depth to it. 

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1 hour ago, shouzan said:

You can't reply because you have no actual replay to Quran verses stating we have freewill.

Allah told us what is wajib and what is not.He told us about halal and haram too and the consequences of following staying on the right path and swaying away from it. He then allowed us free will to choose between right and wrong. Free will doesnt mean that wajibaats become any less important. 

The reason I choose not to reply to you is not because I don't have arguments but simply because I see it futile to have a discussion with someone who not only rejects something wajib but also vehemently defends it. I don't even see what's the point of debating with me. Allah made hijab wajib,not me and that's all I  have been repeating like a broken record ..lol. ..you can give your arguments to Allah. Everyone has to answer for themselves.If you believe this strongly you are right then good, nothing for you to worry about. 

I never once called anyone kafir nor said I think less of anyone for not wearing hijab. On the contrary I have been saying that it does not matter one bit what people think. Hijab is only for Allah.

Anyway,you needed Quran verses? For exactly what? you think you will be convinced.

 “O' you who have Faith! Obey Allah and His Messenger, and do not turn away from him while you hear (him).” 
 “And be not like those who say: ‘We heard’, but they do not hear (indeed). (Anfaal-20,21) 

And whosoever obeys Allah and His Messenger (S.A.W.), fears Allah, and keeps his duty (to Him), such are the successful. (Noor, 52)

And obey Allah and obey the Messenger and beware. And if you turn away - then know that upon Our Messenger is only [the responsibility for] clear notification. (5:92)

 

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@starlight Sister, when you have to teach someone a certain task there are several steps to take. To be able to understand the 10th step of the task you should be able to make others comprehend the preceding ones or else there will be a conflict of thoughts. What you are doing now is you are trying to explain the 50th step and disregarding the previous ones. What I'm trying to say is that your effort will go to vain, unless of course someone else will come and read your steadfast, beautiful insights on this important matter. I guess we did out part of الأمر بالمعروف والنهي عن المنكر.

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2 minutes ago, yasahebalzaman.313 said:

What you are doing now is you are trying to explain the 50th step and disregarding the previous ones

Thank you....I did try to explain things as simply as I could but maybe you right.

3 minutes ago, yasahebalzaman.313 said:

 I guess we did out part of الأمر بالمعروف والنهي عن المنكر.

You are right,again.

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7 hours ago, starlight said:

Okay.

Come on sister, you can't quote me out of context.

By quoting me saying 'Wearing Hijab is a personal choice' and ignoring the part where i said that i had meant a personal choice in the sense of free-will, and that we will be held accountable based on our free will, and not that Hijab is not Wajib but just something Mustahab that we can choose or not choose. 

 

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8 hours ago, Intellectual Resistance said:

It is a matter of personal choice. If you don't submit to Allahs commands you will be held accountable , but the whole idea of life is having free will and personal choice and thus accountability.  I'm not sure i disagree with what you are saying at all here. I am approaching this from an entirely different angle.

Okay. 

(I quoted the whole post now :)

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Just now, Intellectual Resistance said:

post what now ?

Nothing lol. I meant this time I quoted the whole post and did not ignore the part you thought I had ignored earlier.

 

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8 hours ago, starlight said:

 

Anyway,you needed Quran verses? For exactly what? you think you will be convinced.

 “O' you who have Faith! Obey Allah and His Messenger, and do not turn away from him while you hear (him).” 
 “And be not like those who say: ‘We heard’, but they do not hear (indeed). (Anfaal-20,21) 

And whosoever obeys Allah and His Messenger (S.A.W.), fears Allah, and keeps his duty (to Him), such are the successful. (Noor, 52)

And obey Allah and obey the Messenger and beware. And if you turn away - then know that upon Our Messenger is only [the responsibility for] clear notification. (5:92)

 

In regards to these quotes from the Quran, it doesn't solidify your point Star, it just means to listen and be aware of the messages of Allah and the messengers. To which i believe we can all agree, however it still comes down to the freewill Allah has given us to make the choice we wish in our life. A person knows murder is bad but if they do murder on their own freewill and choice it is between them and Allah. You have not been given any authority by Allah to Command me to do anything, since according to you i MUST FOLLOW! Allah gave me a brain I chose to use my mind to read and understand full before i do anything. and yes this includes putting on a hijab. 

 

If i put it on to simply please everyone else and because i am told i have to, what does this make me? Not a strong muslimah woman, instead it makes me into a coward who isn't brave enough to make my own choice and decision. Sunni's don't encourage research and don't allow them to Question anything their scholars have said. We as Shia know the importance of research and understanding of islam and the Quran, that is why we have scholars do we not? they dedicate their lives to understanding the teachings and principals to which islam is based. Why am i not entitled to the same understanding?

 

 

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I don’t understand why @starlight keeps mentioning that wearing hijab is wajib. No one said it wasn’t.

we are saying that just because a woman wears hijab, it doesn’t automatically make a girl more pious.

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12 hours ago, Intellectual Resistance said:

why ?:( 

Lolz. ..you edited my post!! Haha..that was funny. I am not ignoring you.It was just that I had decided to not participate in the discussion anymore. 

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6 hours ago, Islandsandmirrors said:

I don’t understand why @starlight keeps mentioning that wearing hijab is wajib. No one said it wasn’t.

we are saying that just because a woman wears hijab, it doesn’t automatically make a girl more pious.

Star can't participate in the conversation anymore because her only argument is as u said. it is unfortunate because i wish ignorant people won't accept actual ideas. Just as Western society discriminates agains muslims and women in Hijab people like Star and other muslims Discriminates agains Non Hijab wearing Muslims, Does this seem at all okay with anyone with a brain?

 

STOP Judging others, none us are without sins!

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Bismehe Ta3ala,

Assalam Alikum 

Murders do salat.  Does that make salat bad?

Rapists do sawm.  Does that make sawm bad?

Fornicators wear hijab.  Does that make hijab bad?

Seriously, what is your point?

One of the aspects of patience, is patience on enforcing your wajibat.  If you must do a wajab and you flatly deny and reject it, this is a higher sin then the one who knows hijab is wajab yet doesn't do it for a variety of reasons.

But why are you defending the shortcomings with Allah to us? We are human beings and yes we are also sinners, and we repent to Allah and ask His forgiveness.  

Redirect your issues with Allah swt and make sincere du32 to guide you and help you overcome your obstacles you are currently facing.  Nothing is difficult for Allah, He can easily open so much doors, gates, barriers for you.  Do not take this deen lightly.  Because Allah promises if you don't want this deen, He will easily replace you to find another group of people who do want this deen.  It is happeneing every single day!  While Muslims leave deen al haq, many more are converting to it.  God keep us steadfast on this religion.

You know full well hijab is wajab now, there is no ignorance on this issue.  If you choose a spouse who doesn't practice hijab, then when Allah grants you a daughter, the responsibility of her not wearing hijab is on the shoulders of her father.  Good luck explaining that one to Allah!

M3 Salamah, FE AMIN Allah 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Laayla said:

Bismehe Ta3ala,

Assalam Alikum 

Murders do salat.  Does that make salat bad?

Rapists do sawm.  Does that make sawm bad?

Fornicators wear hijab.  Does that make hijab bad?

Seriously, what is your point?

One of the aspects of patience, is patience on enforcing your wajibat.  If you must do a wajab and you flatly deny and reject it, this is a higher sin then the one who knows hijab is wajab yet doesn't do it for a variety of reasons.

But why are you defending the shortcomings with Allah to us? We are human beings and yes we are also sinners, and we repent to Allah and ask His forgiveness.  

Redirect your issues with Allah swt and make sincere du32 to guide you and help you overcome your obstacles you are currently facing.  Nothing is difficult for Allah, He can easily open so much doors, gates, barriers for you.  Do not take this deen lightly.  Because Allah promises if you don't want this deen, He will easily replace you to find another group of people who do want this deen.  It is happeneing every single day!  While Muslims leave deen al haq, many more are converting to it.  God keep us steadfast on this religion.

You know full well hijab is wajab now, there is no ignorance on this issue.  If you choose a spouse who doesn't practice hijab, then when Allah grants you a daughter, the responsibility of her not wearing hijab is on the shoulders of her father.  Good luck explaining that one to Allah!

M3 Salamah, FE AMIN Allah 

 

 

the responsibility of a future daughter not wearing hijab comes down to the Daughter, NOT ANYONE ELSE! Allah does not judge us on others actions. There are also plenty of Daughters who's mothers do wear Hijab and yet they do not!  do again it is the woman INDIVIDUAL choice what she wants to wear. Unless you also feel women are not equal to men and therefore shouldn't be given a choice. Do you also feel girls should not be educated past elementary? Women going out to do normal activities without a husbands permission? what are your thoughts on this matter since:

وَبُيُوتُهُنَّ خَيْرٌ لَهُن

“…even though their houses are better for them

Do women not deserve the same equal treatment and responsibilities as men? 

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^^^

Why do you care what I think or anyone else?

Have you asked yourself what Allah wants from you? 

If you want to know what Allah wants from you, read & understand Quran, hadith, and your marja's risala.  Bingo!  There you have it!

Instead of putting your energy refutting hijab, direct your energy in understanding the hijab of Sayyida Fatimah, Sayyida Zaynab, Sayyida Mariam.  I don't care what Zeina, Jenna, or Noor did xy and z and they wear hijab.  They are not the bar or standard of modesty and haya.  Your bullseye are Sayyida Khadija and Sayyida Zahra.

I think there is more to your story and way of thinking then what you are caring to share.

Allah help you with your affairs.

IMG_20180213_195815.jpg

Edited by Laayla

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