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Maki D Cabarete

Did Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) found the Nation of Islam?

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:salam:

I sense there are enormous confusions and myths going on and being fueled in the NOI regarding its roots and history.

The video below shows ex wife of Muhammad Ali (the boxer) interviewed by what seems to be a NOI member, about a picture displaying her next to  whom was introduced to her as W D Muhammad, when actually it was Imam Muhammad Abdullah of Oakland.

 

 

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One example of his learning, the Nation of Islam in the West did not know about what happened 1400 years ago when our Prophet Muhammad (pbuhahf) was nearing death and what happened right after his death.

Not until the Honorable Elijah Muhammad pbuh said one of the 104 books W F Muhammad twpadf told him to read was, "Mahomet and His Successors, by W Irving. I don't think any Ahmadiyyas would have told him to read a book like that.

There may have been books and things that came by way of the Ahmadiyyas but not their take on Islam, that belongs to them, the Lost Found Nation of Islam in the West is a different movement altogether, not the same.

Also, there were other Muslim communities in Detroit at that time 1930s, Shias, Druze people, people who would might not have a problem with a book like this, W Irving book "Mahomet and His Successors" because they know what happened before and after the Prophet Muhammad death, peace be upon him and his progeny, Ahlulbayt a.s.

Just saying!

Edited by Maki D Cabarete
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56 minutes ago, realizm said:

:salam:

I sense there are enormous confusions and myths going on and being fueled in the NOI regarding its roots and history.

The video below shows ex wife of Muhammad Ali (the boxer) interviewed by what seems to be a NOI member, about a picture displaying her next to  whom was introduced to her as W D Muhammad, when actually it was Imam Muhammad Abdullah of Oakland.

 

 

I see, thanks for the information, my brother!

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2 hours ago, Maki D Cabarete said:

One example of his learning, the Nation of Islam in the West did not know about what happened 1400 years ago when our Prophet Muhammad (pbuhahf) was nearing death and what happened right after his death.

Not until the Honorable Elijah Muhammad pbuh said one of the 104 books W F Muhammad twpadf told him to read was, "Mahomet and His Successors, by W Irving. I don't think any Ahmadiyyas would have told him to read a book like that.

There may have been books and things that came by way of the Ahmadiyyas but not their take on Islam, that belongs to them, the Lost Found Nation of Islam in the West is a different movement altogether, not the same.

Also, there were other Muslim communities in Detroit at that time 1930s, Shias, Druze people, people who would might not have a problem with a book like this, W Irving book "Mahomet and His Successors" because they know what happened before and after the Prophet Muhammad death, peace be upon him and his progeny, Ahlulbayt a.s.

Just saying!

Just one question, why do you want to linkthe shia Islam with NOI ?

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1 hour ago, realizm said:

I sense there are enormous confusions and myths going on and being fueled in the NOI regarding its roots and history.

The video below shows ex wife of Muhammad Ali (the boxer) interviewed by what seems to be a NOI member, about a picture displaying her next to  whom was introduced to her as W D Muhammad, when actually it was Imam Muhammad Abdullah of Oakland.

I personally think the Fard - Muhammad Abdullah connection is highly unlikely.

The ex-wife of Muhammad Ali is the only person who claimed that Elijah Muhammad said that Master Fard Muhammad = Muhammad Abdullah. Warith Deen made this same connection in the 90s, but he did not claim to have any information to prove this, this was just his hunch. It's possible that the woman just misheard Elijah Muhammad, or that Elijah Muhammad misspoke (he had a speech impediment). I don't see why Elijah would tell her this exclusively and no one else. Furthermore, Muhammad Abdullah himself denied that he was Fard, and there's no evidence that he was in America in the 1930s. Muhammad Abdullah comes off as really just your average Pakistani uncle, and his rhetoric is no where near as cryptic as Fard's (who used mostly numerology, pseudo-science, and myth in his Supreme Wisdom). I think Warith Deen's hunch was really just based on the fact that Muhammad Abdullah was an eastern friend of his father's who was around the right age to be Master Fard Muhammad. The claim also fit his narrative that Master Fard Muhammad and Elijah Muhammad were slowly bringing the NOI into traditional Islam; a claim that I don't think can be substantiated much.

Sorry for nerding out.

 

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1 hour ago, realizm said:

Just one question, why do you want to linkthe shia Islam with NOI ?

To make an alliance

Salaam Alaikum

The Lost Found Nation of Islam in the West believes:

1) from the book Our Saviour Has Arrived: the Mahdi a.s descends from Ahlulbayt a.s.

2) from one of the Supreme Wisdom books: the 12 Imams is the right answer.

3) the Sun of Man is the Mahdi a.s.

4) that God can be seen.

May Allah grant us the light of understanding.

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29 minutes ago, Qa'im said:

I personally think the Fard - Muhammad Abdullah connection is highly unlikely.

The ex-wife of Muhammad Ali is the only person who claimed that Elijah Muhammad said that Master Fard Muhammad = Muhammad Abdullah. Warith Deen made this same connection in the 90s, but he did not claim to have any information to prove this, this was just his hunch. It's possible that the woman just misheard Elijah Muhammad, or that Elijah Muhammad misspoke (he had a speech impediment). I don't see why Elijah would tell her this exclusively and no one else. Furthermore, Muhammad Abdullah himself denied that he was Fard, and there's no evidence that he was in America in the 1930s. Muhammad Abdullah comes off as really just your average Pakistani uncle, and his rhetoric is no where near as cryptic as Fard's (who used mostly numerology, pseudo-science, and myth in his Supreme Wisdom). I think Warith Deen's hunch was really just based on the fact that Muhammad Abdullah was an eastern friend of his father's who was around the right age to be Master Fard Muhammad. The claim also fit his narrative that Master Fard Muhammad and Elijah Muhammad were slowly bringing the NOI into traditional Islam; a claim that I don't think can be substantiated much.

Sorry for nerding out.

 

Thank you for your knowledge on this whole thing and about the brother in Islam, Muhammad Abdullah.

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On 1/11/2018 at 10:48 PM, Maki D Cabarete said:

Under what conditions or special case would the Mahdi a.s. while in major ghaybah bring into existence The Lost Found Nation of Islam in the West?

No their teachings are not the ways of Ahlu bayt or Islam blacks are not superior as whites are not either all are equal before Allah

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1 hour ago, Zain el-Abidine said:

No their teachings are not the ways of Ahlu bayt or Islam blacks are not superior as whites are not either all are equal before Allah

Salaam Alaikum my brother,

On the surface it might look that way but you have try to do the impossible. If you're a immigrant and your not a descendant from African slaves in the Americas, try to imagine being treated and breeded like animals for 379 years, then come and tell us who is being oppressed, white or black. Where is the justice in accusing the oppressed of fighting their enamy who happens to be white, well they call themselves white! This whole history is being missed directed perposly by this dejjal to trick the world that it's the Muslim who is bad guy not them.

Just making a point! 

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47 minutes ago, Maki D Cabarete said:

Salaam Alaikum my brother,

On the surface it might look that way but you have try to do the impossible. If you're a immigrant and your not a descendant from African slaves in the Americas, try to imagine being treated and breeded like animals for 379 years, then come and tell us who is being oppressed, white or black. Where is the justice in accusing the oppressed of fighting their enamy who happens to be white, well they call themselves white! This whole history is being missed directed perposly by this dejjal to trick the world that it's the Muslim who is bad guy not them.

Just making a point! 

Ahlulbayt a.s. tells them to follow the Quran, in that they are to defend themselves against oppression and tyranny, as slaves they didn't know who to call on and couldn't do much against their heartless enemy.  Now today as Muslim they have the power to protect themselves, the wilayah of Allah swt be with them.

 

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1 hour ago, Maki D Cabarete said:

Salaam Alaikum my brother,

On the surface it might look that way but you have try to do the impossible. If you're a immigrant and your not a descendant from African slaves in the Americas, try to imagine being treated and breeded like animals for 379 years, then come and tell us who is being oppressed, white or black. Where is the justice in accusing the oppressed of fighting their enamy who happens to be white, well they call themselves white! This whole history is being missed directed perposly by this dejjal to trick the world that it's the Muslim who is bad guy not them.

Just making a point! 

Is that a good excuse to view yourself as better or to hate others? That's not Islamic in any way shape or form.

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2:45am but up for the prayers so I will try to answer your question, please be patient. It's not about hate sir, it's about Justice. There was a panel at the UN last year 2017 that said, the United States alone owes the descendents of African slaves, from 1619 to 1965 reparations for crimes against humanity in the US alone and this do not include all the other European countries who had a hand in the most worst form of slavery the world has ever known. Part one.

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5 minutes ago, Maki D Cabarete said:

the United States alone owes the descendents of African slaves, from 1619 to 1965 reparations for crimes against humanity in the US alone and this do not include all the other European countries who had a hand in the most worst form of slavery the world has ever known.

Salam we all agree that African slaves oppressed by these countries but main problem is that now they support isolation of races such as black & white, today slavery is managed by mind control & hate to each other if idea of separation was against their slavery doctrine they don't let you to organised in name of NOI they afraid that oppressed people from all races unite with each other against them until we hate each other  & don't unite with each other they can seperately control every anti slavery movements  & astray it from true way.

for example when Malcolm X tried to bring unity between all races they immediately martyred him.   

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2 minutes ago, Maki D Cabarete said:

But I see the only way is through the blessings and mercy of Allah as He gave through our Prophet pbuhahf Ahlulbayt a.s. and His Mahdi a.s. to all the people. No hate but with freedom, justice, equality and Islam, no hate. All people are okay with this kind of unity.

thanks but main issue is that we must try to know real Imam Mahdi (aj) and avoid fake Mahdi s that everyday number of them increases every sect has its definition from him but we must able to identify right from wrong & stay resistant just not solid but dynamic. 

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9 minutes ago, Maki D Cabarete said:

I would like to see an alliance between the NOI and Shia, with a good respect for each other, there is so much in common. There will be some differences due to culture but in time a lot of positive will come, it will please Allah swt.

An alliance is possible when it comes to the social struggle, but that does not mean we need to find common grounds of creed. Just like with sunnis.

We all believe in the Mahdi (as). We shias as him being from Bani Hashim and a Husseini, sunnis as a Hassani, the NOI ressembling more Ahmadis on that matter. 

But when the true Mahdi emerges, there will be no place for concessions, we all must pledge allegiance and put our personal beliefs aside.

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In my view the NoI are just as much Shia as the Druze, Alawites and other ghulat sects are Shia. Ergo, they took the cover and trappings of islam in order to hide their fundamentally pagan and sometimes even materialistic beliefs.

The story about the black man who reverted from NoI to Shia is very good and I liked it. Thanks for posting it. God is going to judge us all, whether black or white, and there's no need for racially tinged sects like the NoI, or things like "Christian Identity", to pour wood on the fire of racial discord inside some delicate places like the US.

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On 2/4/2018 at 12:17 PM, LatinAmericanShia1991 said:

In my view the NoI are just as much Shia as the Druze, Alawites and other ghulat sects are Shia. Ergo, they took the cover and trappings of islam in order to hide their fundamentally pagan and sometimes even materialistic beliefs.

The story about the black man who reverted from NoI to Shia is very good and I liked it. Thanks for posting it. God is going to judge us all, whether black or white, and there's no need for racially tinged sects like the NoI, or things like "Christian Identity", to pour wood on the fire of racial discord inside some delicate places like the US.

Salaam Alaikum

Please, could you explain in this discussion, why you used the term ghulat in describing the Druze and Alawites, in your view of Shia.

Also, your view of the Lost Found Nation of Islam in the West (NOI), did you feel in some way a dislike or anxiety from this revolutionary Islamic group?

Thank you

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10 hours ago, Maki D Cabarete said:

Salaam Alaikum

Please, could you explain in this discussion, why you used the term ghulat in describing the Druze and Alawites, in your view of Shia.

Also, your view of the Lost Found Nation of Islam in the West (NOI), did you feel in some way a dislike or anxiety from this revolutionary Islamic group?

Thank you

we are not against any revolutionary Islamic group , our problem is about racism in any type , racism always caused disunity between Shia muslims but new generation rries to avoid it.

"Ghullu" in the words of the word is exaggerated, and in religious and religious beliefs it means that man transcends what he believes in. In peoples and nations, the overwhelming majority has been assigned to the Imams of Ahl al-Bayt, meaning in terms of prophecy or deification. Hence, whenever the word "Gullat" is used in nations and non-symbols, they mean those individuals or sects who believe in the that Imams of the Shi'a are gods god spirit advents on the Imams (as).

like as NOI says that God Advents on their leaders.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghulat

http://fa.wikishia.net/view/غالیان

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7 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

we are not against any revolutionary Islamic group , our problem is about racism in any type , racism always caused disunity between Shia muslims but new generation rries to avoid it.

"Ghullu" in the words of the word is exaggerated, and in religious and religious beliefs it means that man transcends what he believes in. In peoples and nations, the overwhelming majority has been assigned to the Imams of Ahl al-Bayt, meaning in terms of prophecy or deification. Hence, whenever the word "Gullat" is used in nations and non-symbols, they mean those individuals or sects who believe in the that Imams of the Shi'a are gods god spirit advents on the Imams (as).

like as NOI says that God Advents on their leaders.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghulat

http://fa.wikishia.net/view/غالیان

The Lost Found Nation of Islam in the West is accused of racism due to the fact that the oppressor happens to be from another race. A story I would like to tell, if I may: Once upon a time, there was a plantation owner who wanted one of his slaves to do something that she said she would not do for anything. Well, this enraged the plantation owner to a degree where he ordered her to be lashed until the skin on her naked back was a bloody mess. The whole plantation of people was ordered to be present especially all the slaves, house and field, everyone. There was even a doctor present, who was on the plantation at the time, who stood as witness to the lashing. When the back of the slave was beaten and blooded, the lashings stop for the doctor to make the examination, he the doctor asked the slave girl, did she think about what the owner wanted her to do and will she do it now what he, the slave owner wanted. She, the slave girl, said no and that he the slave owner was nothing but a white devil, the doctor then told the slave owner what the girl had said, then the owner became more in raged and continued the lashing until the black slave girl was dead. In this story, we have the oppressor and the oppressed. My question is who is the the real racist, the slave owner or the slave girl who is dead due to the lashing. Also, what whould you call all the witnesses, the doctor included? The Lost Found Nation of Islam in the West will do what the Qur’an say do. They are not the oppressor to anyone.

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9 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

we are not against any revolutionary Islamic group , our problem is about racism in any type , racism always caused disunity between Shia muslims but new generation rries to avoid it.

"Ghullu" in the words of the word is exaggerated, and in religious and religious beliefs it means that man transcends what he believes in. In peoples and nations, the overwhelming majority has been assigned to the Imams of Ahl al-Bayt, meaning in terms of prophecy or deification. Hence, whenever the word "Gullat" is used in nations and non-symbols, they mean those individuals or sects who believe in the that Imams of the Shi'a are gods god spirit advents on the Imams (as).

like as NOI says that God Advents on their leaders.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghulat

http://fa.wikishia.net/view/غالیان

The phrase "in the person" or "in the existence"  is phonological.

Although, the Lost Found Nation of Islam in the West don't use the word existence for person in the phrase but we can say:

Person = Being

Being = Existence

It's a way of philosophical thinking, for example:

The first brother in the beginning of this discussion, provided us with something from the NOI Supreme Wisdom lessons, Lost Found Muslim lesson No. 2 question no. 16. 

Who is the 5%?

We should ask, 5% of what.

Some say it means a % of the population of the planet, some say it means persons with 95% intelligence, lacking 5% and some say it means both.

A % of a person's Intelligence or thinking or consciousness or intellect.

The 5%, with the above understanding is a way of saying, those who are with closeness or nearness to God.

Edited by Maki D Cabarete
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If you take a deeper look into the answer to this question No. 16, that the Honorable Elijah Muhammad gave pbuh, you will see the phrase Muslim Son. Muslim Son refers to those whites who have study and accepted Islam, they are not looked upon as enemies.

So, this is not about racism due to the color of one's skin but it's about Freedom, Justice, Equality and Islam for all people in all walks of life.

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6 hours ago, Maki D Cabarete said:

The phrase "in the person" or "in the existence"  is phonological.

Although, the Lost Found Nation of Islam in the West don't use the word existence for person in the phrase but we can say:

Person = Being

Being = Existence

It's a way of philosophical thinking, for example:

The first brother in the beginning of this discussion, provided us with something from the NOI Supreme Wisdom lessons, Lost Found Muslim lesson No. 2 question no. 16. 

Who is the 5%?

We should ask, 5% of what.

Some say it means a % of the population of the planet, some say it means persons with 95% intelligence, lacking 5% and some say it means both.

A % of a person's Intelligence or thinking or consciousness or intellect.

The 5%, with the above understanding is a way of saying, those who are with closeness or nearness to God.

Pholosophical not Phonological for the phrase "in the person" or "in the existence"

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15 hours ago, Maki D Cabarete said:

In this story, we have the oppressor and the oppressed. My question is who is the the real racist, the slave owner or the slave girl who is dead due to the lashing. Also, what whould you call all the witnesses, the doctor included? The Lost Found Nation of Islam in the West will do what the Qur’an say do. They are not the oppressor to anyone.

Edited 15 hours ago by Maki D Cabarete

Anyone from any race & religion that agrees with oppressor is as like as him/her is oppressor the black people always oppressed but they must not act now same as oppressors acted to them . nowadays any person from any race & religion oppressed  but if we isolate ourselves from a certain group that oppressed because of their race & religion & don't support them we have no difference with oppressors.

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15 hours ago, Maki D Cabarete said:

In this story, we have the oppressor and the oppressed. My question is who is the the real racist, the slave owner or the slave girl who is dead due to the lashing. Also, what whould you call all the witnesses, the doctor included? The Lost Found Nation of Islam in the West will do what the Qur’an say do. They are not the oppressor to anyone.

Edited 15 hours ago by Maki D Cabarete

Anyone from any race & religion that agrees with oppressor is as like as him/her is oppressor the black people always oppressed but they must not act now same as oppressors acted to them . nowadays any person from any race & religion oppressed  but if we isolate ourselves from a certain group that oppressed because of their race & religion & don't support them we have no difference with oppressors.

7 hours ago, Maki D Cabarete said:

Pholosophical not Phonological for the phrase "in the person" or "in the existence"

we don't classify Ahlulbayt (as) as gods but consider them as nearest persons to God(Allah) & classifying people by percent is not way of ahlulbayt(as) they care unbeliever equal to believer   because most of unbelievers oppressed by tyrants by keeping them in darkness & Ignorance .

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Please understand, the decedents of African slaves lost all knowledge of their own (Islam) due to more than 379 years of the worst form of slavery the world has ever known.

When Islam did arrive it was mixed with the cultures and the experiences of the people who came.

I don't know if those new emigrants who came in early 20th century to North America, expected to see all the Africans that were already here.

Black people, at that time were living under what was called Jim Crow Laws 1877 to 1965.

Before Jim Crow there was Black Code Laws and before that it was Slavery for blacks.

The man who introduced Islam to blacks in 1930, W F Muhammad twpadf, taught Islam in a mathematical way, that's why percentage is used.

Mathematics is a common language that is used to measure the intellect or conscious growth or stages of mental or spiritual resurrection.

Remember, blacks had no culture or religion that they brought from where ever in Africa they were brought from. 

Try to understand, blacks did not volunteer to come to the Americas, they did not freely emirgrate, they were brought against their will as slaves.

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10 minutes ago, Maki D Cabarete said:

Try to understand, blacks did not volunteer to come to the Americas, they did not freely emirgrate, they were brought against their will as slaves.

I watch roots series & somehow understand your situation but what I'm trying you that you most promote your taught & not remain in doubtful state by some teachings that have no shia Islamic source.:grin:

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@Ashvazdanghe Thank you for you clear words and perspective on this issue.

@Maki D Cabarete The NoI is a dangerous sect with warped beliefs. Louis Farrakhan is an extremist hate preacher.

As @Ashvazdanghe clearly said before in this thread, that blacks were oppressed in America for centuries doesn't mean they should take the garments of their own oppressors. That's clear to me. 

The NoI is an extremist sect with weird racist beliefs that fall outside the purview of true Islam. They are also very antisemitic, and while I see the point that somebody might be Anti-Zionist, that doesn't mean this should be some kind of free pass for sheer old fashioned antisemitism, such as what often happened in Europe before the two World Wars.

The NoI consorts with Neo-Nazis and white separatists. So much for an organization that tries to end white supremacy by fostering its advocates. The NoI regularly accuses Jews of being the masters of the Atlantic slave trade, which is not that farfetched, but hey, slavery wasn't even something exclusive to the Atlantic in the first place.

We mustn't forget that in the Muslim world, alone, there was a lot of slavery. Zionist Saudi Arabia abolished slavery only in the 1960's, under pressure from her Western allies and bedfellows. The Mamluks were famous medieval slave soldiers and later rulers of Egypt, and so were the Ghulams.

I've had Wahabi muslims call every Shia a kafir. We must be very mindful of this: oppression is everywhere, and as my shekh aptly said in one of his sermons, it can be found abundantly even in the very heart of the Muslim world. However oppression is not of Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى and his rightful religion, but of defective man and his earthly institutions, or of extremist sects that seek the cover of true religion to spread their vile heresies. 

 

 

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Also relevant to this discussion:

https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/intelligence-report/2002/american-black-muslims-neo-nazis-foreign-muslim-extremists-join-forces
 

Quote

 

In 1961, Elijah Muhammad, founder of the black supremacist Nation of Islam, met with Ku Klux Klan leaders at the Magnolia Hall in Atlanta. Although they had different ideas about the skin color of the master race, they shared the belief that blacks and whites should stay separate.

The following year, Muhammad invited American Nazi Party chief George Lincoln Rockwell to address a Nation convention in Chicago, even though Rockwell had often called blacks "the lowest scum of humanity."

 

In other words, the NoI is far away from the spirit of Martin Luther King, the post-1960's Democratic Party (after Strom Thurmond and the Southern types left it) and more like unto the spirit of fascism or reverse Jim Crow.

Malcolm X himself relented from his extremist beliefs before he expired. And there's still something good about him, you say. But the NoI is like Christian Identity: heretical pagan sect that seeks to create an ethnocentric religious ethos. Much like the Druze, who used Islam as a guise to cover up their native beliefs and also protect anyone from converting into their close-knit community.

Whereas the spirit of Islam is universal. Everyone can join, be they black or white. Some have posted videos of black ulama calling for the end of slavery, and that's very good. Islam won't prevent you, black man, from getting an important post as an ulama or marrying white women, even if they're non-Muslim. Even though some Arabs can be very racist.

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