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In the Name of God بسم الله

Shia views on Che Guevara in 2018.

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I'm curious as to what the consensus, if any, there is on shiachat in reference to the historical revolutionary Che Guevara. 

If he were alive today, would the Ummah befriend him? 

I admire him. I think he and Dr. Shariati were ahead of their time. I'd like to hear your thoughts. 

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El Che, eh? I am not terribly fond of him, people have lionized a thug.

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Conversely, Jacobo Machover, an exiled opposition author, dismisses all praise of Guevara and portrays him as a callous executioner.[262] Exiled former Cuban prisoners have expressed similar opinions, among them Armando Valladares, who declared Guevara "a man full of hatred" who executed dozens without trial,[263] and Carlos Alberto Montaner, who asserted that Guevara possessed "a Robespierre mentality", wherein cruelty against the revolution's enemies was a virtue.[264] Álvaro Vargas Llosa of The Independent Institute has hypothesized that Guevara's contemporary followers "delude themselves by clinging to a myth", describing Guevara as a "Marxist Puritan" who employed his rigid power to suppress dissent, while also operating as a "cold-blooded killing machine".[155] Llosa also accuses Guevara's "fanatical disposition" as being the linchpin of the "Sovietization" of the Cuban revolution, speculating that he possessed a "total subordination of reality to blind ideological orthodoxy".[155] On a macro-level, Hoover Institution research fellow William Ratliff regards Guevara more as a creation of his historical environment, referring to him as a "fearless" and "head-strong Messiah-like figure", who was the product of a martyr-enamored Latin culture which "inclined people to seek out and follow paternalistic miracle workers".[265]Ratliff further speculates that the economic conditions in the region suited Guevara's commitment to "bring justice to the downtrodden by crushing centuries-old tyrannies"; describing Latin America as being plagued by what Moisés Naím referred to as the "legendary malignancies" of inequality, poverty, dysfunctional politics and malfunctioning institutions.

This is what Wikipedia has to say about the controversy surrounding him^

Shariati is much more admirable in my opinion.

Edited by Gaius I. Caesar
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3 minutes ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

El Che, eh? I am not terribly fond of him, people have lionized a thug.

This is what Wikipedia has to say about the controversy surrounding him^

Shariati is much more admirable in my opinion.

That is certainly one position on Che. I find that most criticism surrounding his personality is his disposition to hard violence against his enemies. 

Would his stiff resistance be considered contrary to Adl in light of current trends in Shi'i thought? 

What about what he stood for? Would the modern  Shi'i body be aligned with his efforts? 

Bashar Asad is no less controversial... But we can see how the majority of the Shi'i body supports his regime. 

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38 minutes ago, AnotherShepherd said:

Would his stiff resistance be considered contrary to Adl in light of current trends in Shi'i thought? 

Would defending the resistance stiffly, include executions of" suspected" war criminals? I thought people were innocent until proven guilty.

They don't call him "The Butcher of La Cabana" for nothing.

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On 1/8/2018 at 8:03 PM, Gaius I. Caesar said:

Would defending the resistance stiffly, include executions of" suspected" war criminals? I thought people were innocent until proven guilty.

They don't call him "The Butcher of La Cabana" for nothing.

I see him as a hero and a symbol against capitalism. It's true he did kill people but he also fought in Cuba, South Africa and South America to try and free the world from American imperialism. 

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2 hours ago, Ībn Mūneer Āl-Feylī said:

It's true he did kill people but he also fought in Cuba, South Africa and South America to try and free the world from American imperialism. 

There are people who did the same without earning the name "Butcher" or the reputation of a crazed thug who loved violence. (E.g. Hugo Chavez)

By the way, Che was in the Congo, not South Africa.

Edited by Gaius I. Caesar
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4 hours ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

There are people who did the same without earning the name "Butcher" or the reputation of a crazed thug who loved violence. (E.g. Hugo Chavez)

By the way, Che was in the Congo, not South Africa.

 I mean him being called a butcher means what when it comes from capitalists? Capitalism supported slavery and the industrial revolution was spurred on by slavery. 

You are right, but the south africans were supporting the otherside weren't they? I'm not too familar on his african exploits.

Third, in islam capital punishment is permissible. Even Imam Ali killed people in the context of battle, killing without reason is the issue; not in context of something.

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1 hour ago, Ībn Mūneer Āl-Feylī said:

Islam is in favour of socialism from a socio-economic standpoint.

 

1 hour ago, AnotherShepherd said:

Agreed. 

Ok, I agree as well but what do you think of what he had to say about Isa Ibn Maryam (as): 

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“In fact, if Christ himself stood in my way, I, like Nietzsche, would not hesitate to squish him like a worm.”

Or what he said about his enemies:

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“A revolutionary must become a cold killing machine motivated by pure hate. We must create the pedagogy of the The Wall!” 

War:

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“Crazy with fury I will stain my rifle red while slaughtering any enemy that falls in my hands! My nostrils dilate while savoring the acrid odor of gunpowder and blood. With the deaths of my enemies I prepare my being for the sacred fight and join the triumphant proletariat with a bestial howl!”

Please before you admire this man, ask yourselves whether his views are congruent with the Ahlulbayt (as)? 

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2 hours ago, Ībn Mūneer Āl-Feylī said:

Islam is in favour of socialism from a socio-economic standpoint. 

No it isn't. You will need prood for that statement I'm afraid.

If you ever read a book on Islamic economic ethics in light of Fiqh, you will see it has capitalist elements and socialist elements. 

Example:

- Islam is in favour of private property and does not believe that all the means of production should be under public or collective ownership

- this extends to land (with exceptions), and businesses 

- contracts are very simple between two individuals whether it be for purchase or hiring labour, and does not require state intervention or knowledge at all, in fact existence of private business and labour itself would not sit well with some socialists

- land can be taken over by individuals if it fulfills the conditions of "dead land" - and if this land is revived, then he who revived it now owns it

- or land can just be purchased, or inherited

Surprisingly Wikipedia has done a good job covering this:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_economics#Private_property

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12 hours ago, Sumerian said:

No it isn't. You will need prood for that statement I'm afraid.

If you ever read a book on Islamic economic ethics in light of Fiqh, you will see it has capitalist elements and socialist elements. 

Example:

- Islam is in favour of private property and does not believe that all the means of production should be under public or collective ownership

- this extends to land (with exceptions), and businesses 

- contracts are very simple between two individuals whether it be for purchase or hiring labour, and does not require state intervention or knowledge at all, in fact existence of private business and labour itself would not sit well with some socialists

- land can be taken over by individuals if it fulfills the conditions of "dead land" - and if this land is revived, then he who revived it now owns it

- or land can just be purchased, or inherited

Surprisingly Wikipedia has done a good job covering this:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_economics#Private_property

With all due respect you are conflating several terms. Private property can still exist in a socialist economy but it would be regulated. Though yes ideally the replacement of private property would be replaced by 'personal property' instead: https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/ch02.htm

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When, therefore, capital is converted into common property, into the property of all members of society, personal property is not thereby transformed into social property. It is only the social character of the property that is changed. It loses its class character.

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https://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/personal+property 

Personal Property

Everything that is the subject of ownership that does not come under the denomination of real property; any right or interestthat an individual has in movable things.

Personal property can be divided into two major categories: (1) corporeal personal property, including such items as animals,merchandise, and jewelry; and (2) incorporeal personal property, comprised of such rights as stocks, bonds, Patents, andcopyrights.

Possession

Possession is a property interest under which an individual is able to exercise power over something to the exclusion of allothers. It is a basic property right that entitles the possessor to (1) the right to continue peaceful possession against everyoneexcept someone having a superior right; (2) the right to recover a chattel that has been wrongfully taken; and (3) the right torecover damages against wrongdoers.Possession requires a degree of actual control over the object, coupled with the intentto possess and exclude others. The law recognizes two basic types of possession: actual and constructive.

Actual possession exists when an individual knowingly has direct physical control over an object at a given time. Forexample, an individual wearing a particular piece of valuable jewelry has actual possession of it. Constructive possession isthe power and intent of an individual to control a particular item, even though it is not physically in that person's control. Forexample, an individual who has the key to a bank safe deposit box, which contains a valuable piece of jewelry that she owns,is said to be in constructive possession of the jewelry.

 

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Islam is in favour of private property and does not believe that all the means of production should be under public or collective ownership

What is the percentage then? You see Iran if we are taking an example only as a private sector at 25%. I'd hardly call this free market capitalism. The rest of its economy is owned by the state and the IRGC and even then it still doesn't provide some basic social services for its peoples. Like universal healthcare coverage... 

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The author has used an analysis of the Iranian economy based on the available value of each economic sector and an estimated share of each of the three sectors to gauge an estimated share of each of the three groups. Based on these calculations, the public sector contributes 35% to the Iranian GDP, the private sector about 25% and the semi-state sector approximately 40%. As mentioned, the semi-state sector includes a host of religious and revolutionary foundations, social security and pension funds as well as military organizations. The IRGC network is the largest component of the military entities, which also include the social security and pension fund of the armed forces and is known as the SATA. Therefore, in terms of share of the GDP, the estimated share of the network around the IRGC is about 15%, with a growing trend.

Read more: http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2017/08/iran-irgc-economy-footprint-khatam-olanbia.html#ixzz53yRdnOed

 

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 contracts are very simple between two individuals whether it be for purchase or hiring labour, and does not require state intervention or knowledge at all, in fact existence of private business and labour itself would not sit well with some socialists

You are conflating Socialism with State socialism. State socialism is merely one strand of socialism, you can have libertarian socialism. Also I'm not sure on what you mean by the latter part of your comment here. https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/state-socialism

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a variant of socialism in which the power of the state is employed for the purpose of creating an egalitarian societyby means of public control of major industries, banks, etc, coupled with economic planning and a social securitysystem

 

 

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@Ībn Mūneer Āl-Feylī thank you for the comment brother, certainly educated me on the topic of socialism. 

However, I would like to elaborate on my point. I believe that Islamic economics is not some sort of comprehensive and complex alternative system of economy, it is simply a list of laws and ethics that should be observed - these laws and ethics may be seen as capitalist and others may be seen as socialist.

What we have is a set of laws like for example, if someone from the community died due to him not being able to access healthcare when it was possible to help, then there is collective sin and guilt on all those who could have helped him. To complement this law it would seem the best system should be universal health coverage (socialist policy).

But then, like I mentioned before, things like simplicity in thr contracts for purchasing businesses and land, and hiring labour, would not sit well with socialists because of the little regulation that is stated in the Fiqh books.

I hope my point is clear and I thank you again for teaching me stuff I didn't know, especially regarding socialism and property.

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18 hours ago, Sumerian said:

@Ībn Mūneer Āl-Feylī thank you for the comment brother, certainly educated me on the topic of socialism. 

However, I would like to elaborate on my point. I believe that Islamic economics is not some sort of comprehensive and complex alternative system of economy, it is simply a list of laws and ethics that should be observed - these laws and ethics may be seen as capitalist and others may be seen as socialist.

What we have is a set of laws like for example, if someone from the community died due to him not being able to access healthcare when it was possible to help, then there is collective sin and guilt on all those who could have helped him. To complement this law it would seem the best system should be universal health coverage (socialist policy).

But then, like I mentioned before, things like simplicity in thr contracts for purchasing businesses and land, and hiring labour, would not sit well with socialists because of the little regulation that is stated in the Fiqh books.

I hope my point is clear and I thank you again for teaching me stuff I didn't know, especially regarding socialism and property.

Brothers @Sumerian and @Ībn Mūneer Āl-Feylī, what I think is that rather than socialism, the politico-economic standpoint of Islam is that of establishing a welfare state. 
A welfare state has strong similarities with a socialist one, and people often tend to confuse the two.

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