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Christianity

Is YHWH the same as Allah?

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21 minutes ago, Mishael said:

I mean it's a pretty common Islamic belief that God abandoned the Israelites for corrupting his words according to Islamic tradition the Quran does not directly state this but it is hinted and many early Islamic scholars also implied this.

My friend, i mean it is fair to say if you make a claim to back it up with evidence. I want to see that Allah has abondened the Israelites

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1 minute ago, Mishael said:

True they did pre Islamic Arabs also were said to worship marry along side Jesus and hold polytheistic beliefs. They were Nestorian and Monophysites aswell.

Nestorian assyrians use the aramaic word 'Allaha' for God, which was the same language of Jesus (as). 

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Just now, Mishael said:

Jesus spoke Galilean Aramaic, Assyrians speak Syriac and read the Bible in the Syriac translation of it which came many centuries after Jesus. Allaha and Allah are different terms similar but still not the same. And keep in mind we know basically nothing about pre Islamic Arabia since the only documentation of it come mainly from Islamic sources so it's pretty hard to identify what was true and what was made up.

Galilean Aramaic, Syriac and Arabic all use words for God that are etymologically rooted in 'Eloh' of the Bible (sometimes spelled as the plural Elohim to signify majesty). The fact that the monophysite ghassanids (pre-Islamic arabs) used the word 'Allah' for God is enough to prove that Allah was not some 'foreign deity'.. 

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3 minutes ago, Mishael said:

Elohim was also used in the Bible to also refer to Baal or false gods since it was a title basically, also how to we know what the Ghassanids called God Allah since I don't think we have writings in them and keep in mind they were formely pagans so they might have just continued using the name even after their conversion.

Its mostly in their poetry, but i believe there are also surviving inscriptions; i'll look it up later. Anyway thankyou for conceding that 'Eloh' can refer to God depending on who's speaking. What this teaches us is that its what the term 'Allah' refers to that is important, not the word in and of itself. And we know Allah in Islam refers to the Self-Existing Originator of Existence, the One all abrahamic religions acknowledge as the only god.

So i dont see the problem here.

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Why would God need a "personal name"? First, God is unique and has existed before time. Second, the need of a "personal name" implies that there are others similar and the name is needed to distinguish.

Again, polytheism. 

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5 hours ago, Mishael said:

Mishael, I answered your question about talking of them.

Now it's your turn, you skipped the question that I asked you:

Why did you choose to be follower of a religion by Paul? Was he a prophet from God? 

Edited by Arminmo

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2 hours ago, Mishael said:

Paul and Jesus's preached the same religion

You liar ! Another lie from you !

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. (Matthew 5:17-20)

Amazingly, Paul went to such extremes that he claimed Jesus destroyed the Jewish Law! 

 “He (Jesus) brought the hostility to an end, by abolishing the Law of commandments with its regulations”. (Ephesians 2:14)

Needless to say, the passage contradicts Matthew 5:17-20 where Jesus specifically states that he came to preach the Law, not to destroy it.

Paul degraded Jesus in the following verse:

Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, (Hebrews 6:1, English Standard Version)

According to Jesus, the lawless ones will be thrown in Hell. (This includes all Christians)

 "So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness,  and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (Matthew 13:40-42 New American Standard Bible)

 

You call that same teaching???!!!!!! (Changed religion by Paul.)

Or prophet Muhammad's teachings are the same teachings???!!!

 

Edited by Arminmo

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7 hours ago, Mishael said:

Mohammed was not a prophet.

Another lie from the big liar of the website, Quran:48:29

Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah; and those with him are forceful against the disbelievers, merciful among themselves. You see them bowing and prostrating [in prayer], seeking bounty from Allah and [His] pleasure. Their mark is on their faces from the trace of prostration. That is their description in the Torah. And their description in the Gospel is as a plant which produces its offshoots and strengthens them so they grow firm and stand upon their stalks, delighting the sowers - so that Allah may enrage by them the disbelievers. Allah has promised those who believe and do righteous deeds among them forgiveness and a great reward.

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3 minutes ago, Mishael said:

Only one I see lying is you by the way people are already seeing the things I wrote so jokes on you. Mohammed wasn't a prophet deal with it.

Yes he was ignorant liar, deal with it.

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10 minutes ago, Mishael said:

Thank you case closed.

The fact you don't even pray like you should pray according to your book, makes no sense in that regard! The one Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى loves the most is Prophet Mohammed, even our Imams are higher ranking that Jesus (as) and you guys give him devine status. Jesus knows that very well, and he will Inshallah spread the love through the world when he comes with Imam mehdi! In Allah's name everything is possible!

 

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in bible jesus himself said

son of man has come to find the lost and has come to free them,

until son of man doesnot get up from dead,
people will see son of man on clouds,
you dont know the time when  son of man will come,
son of man will be betread will be crucified and,
on arriving jeroselum those with jesus said this is jesus the prohet from nazarath and galalee
@Mishael

 

Edited by father

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On 1/8/2018 at 4:10 AM, Christianity said:

Wikipedia notes:

as well as:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yahweh

So, is YHWH the same as Allah? As a Christian, I certainly consider him my God, the only true God of all things, and the only one deserving of worship. I would consider Allah the Islamic "spin off" (I don't mean that in a rude or offensive way) of YHWH. Thoughts or other opinions/viewpoints? 

Ilah, El,  elohim Ellah/Allah, etc are just different forms of the same word that literally means God. 

Arabic being a semitic language did not avoid sharing lexicological origins with hebrew and therefore similar expressions of the word for God. 

At least according to what I've read.

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On 1/8/2018 at 9:16 AM, notme said:

I think you'll agree, that doesn't even make sense. And I was expressing incredulity at that lack of sense. 

Christians (and others) take note: the only way you're going to convert Shia Muslims is by understanding Islam, searching for any logical inconsistencies, and resolving them in your belief system without introducing more logical inconsistencies. Islam appeals to the mind, not just to the emotions. 

I disagree.  Many of us we muslims no matter what sect we identify as... are mostly stubborn and do not concede to logical discourse  or even considering the possibility that we may be wrong or incorrect.

Were not too different from non muslims,  too fearful of going astray because of what was taught to us as we grew up, or afraid to question our beleifs because it hurts pride,  etc. etc. etc. The reasons are many for apprehensiveness.

If Islam appealed to the mind, I wouldn't have experienced the gross amount of stubborn ignorance on here as I have.

Self delusion exists in all those who claim to follow a religion. 

The logical premise is circular from what I've encountered so far.  Few people on here I've experienced a potent and meaningful discussion.  Or perhaps the ones Im seeking on here,  dont like to show themselves.

God knows how many people from the Shia community will give me a sorry or dirty look for considering the fact 6 million Jews tortured,  gassed and burned being a more tragic event than the martyrdom of Imam Hussein AS, its already happened too many times.  Attending Shia lectures and events and seeing the emotional attachment to the Imams and never hearing a single Allahu Akbar/God is great is an experience for me that inclines my understanding of Shia individuals' Islam to be too emotionally inspired than rational.  

Though subjectively,  that's their idea of mindedness or rationality. 

I saw other traits in Sunni Islam towards Sahaba equally illogical.

 

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17 hours ago, Mishael said:

Paul and Jesus's preached the same religion

Another lie from you ,

show us a) where in Judaism and b) and also in which section of words of jesus 

This idealogy exist that, human child borns with sin ! If your religion is not changed by Paul! 

Otherwise prophet Muhammad preached the same Abrahamic religion!

not Your changed religion!

Show it ! I’ll wait forever for you to answer this.ohh yeaaaah!

Edited by Arminmo

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6 hours ago, Mishael said:

Thank you case closed.

I said yes he was ( prophet I meant) ignorant liar, deal with it.

Edited by Arminmo

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1 minute ago, Arminmo said:

I said yes he was ( prophet I meant) ignorant liar, deal with it.

@Mishael

You know whats funny,  I dont think Jesus AS nor Muhammad SAW would be caught dead speaking to each other the way you two are.

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9 minutes ago, wmehar2 said:

@Mishael

You know whats funny,  I dont think Jesus AS nor Muhammad SAW would be caught dead speaking to each other the way you two are.

As you know , what the definition of MuRtad means, he revert from Islam to Christianity! And As you know where the place of murtad is after judgment day! HELL.

Edited by Arminmo

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2 minutes ago, Arminmo said:

As you know , what the definition of MuRtad means, he revert from Islam to Christianity! And As you know where the place of murtad is after judgment day!

you're saying Mishael was muslim?

How do you know he was muslim to begin with?

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33 minutes ago, Arminmo said:

Well he's free to do whatsoever he wishes.

From where I stand Islam isn't an easy thing to define when people grow up sunni,  shia, or whatever they believe in.

I'm inclined to ask the guy why he left but you already know my perspective is worlds apart from yours and others.   And my words may mean nothing to him.

I tend to believe those who leave islam never were in it to begin with, or were shown true islam. Because I myself am looking for Gods religion.   

Its why i left sunnism, am trying to understand shiism, and now just a guy who wants to call himself muslim but everyone  else thinks they own the religion enough to judge me otherwise.

Paths are a hard thing to find. 

Edited by wmehar2

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18 minutes ago, wmehar2 said:

Well he's free to do whatsoever he wishes.

From where I stand Islam isn't an easy thing to define when people grow up sunni,  shia, or whatever they believe in.

I'm inclined to ask the guy why he left but you already know my perspective is worlds apart from yours and others.   And my words may mean nothing to him.

I tend to believe those who leave islam never were in it to begin with, or were shown true islam. Because I myself am looking for Gods religion.   

Its why i left sunnism, am trying to understand shiism, and now just a guy who wants to call himself muslim but everyone  else thinks they own the religion enough to judge me otherwise.

Paths are a hard thing to find. 

Now your statements are Fair enough!

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9 hours ago, Mishael said:

The idea of children being born with sin was there before the existence of Paul even in the Old Testament.

Exodus 34

Exodus ?! You (and your Paul ! ) are having a wrong interpretation of Jews books, look what Jews say about their own book :

http://www.jeanejones.net/2012/05/sins-of-the-fathers/

In exodus, The children who were exiled or born in exile endured the consequences of their parents’ sins: they could not live in the Promised Land during the exile. Moses warned of this consequence for persistently rejecting God, but also promised when a generation confessed their sins and their fathers’ sins, God would restore them to the land (Leviticus 26:39-42).

God said if a man is righteous, he will live (18:5-9).

Additionally, if a wicked man repents, he will live, but if a righteous man becomes wicked, he will die (18:21-29).

Edited by Arminmo

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On 1/10/2018 at 1:08 AM, Mishael said:

Jesus fulfilled the law so the Old law ended when Jesus died. Paul taught the same thing the prophets taught about the messiah.

Can you tell , what was the purpose of coming of messaiah?

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9 hours ago, Mishael said:

Only God decides a persons judgement not you or I.

Yeah god decides, but rules of god are obvious (sorry changed in your religion! ) , so by the rules of god you will be placed in hell.

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12 minutes ago, Mishael said:

To be the deliverer and savior of people from sin.

Save from which sin? Who said that ? 

purpose of Messiah was to brought peace in the world!!! Where is the peace today ????

on the return of prophet jesus(as) peace comes. Paul deleted the laws too soon, by your own book, you will be placed in hell !

According to Jesus, the lawless ones will be thrown in Hell. (This includes all Christians)

 "So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit “lawlessness”,  and will “throw” them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (Matthew 13:40-42 New American Standard Bible)

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23 minutes ago, Mishael said:

Paul deleted no laws.

But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter," (Rom. 7:6).

that was another one of your lies ! Living in a changed religion by Paul. He deleted the laws !!

Edited by Arminmo

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9 minutes ago, Mishael said:

fulfilled the law

When peace is brought to the world laws gets fulfilled,

Paul released the laws too soon, living in a changed religion by Paul. 

Case closed.

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On 1/14/2018 at 12:02 PM, Mishael said:

No the Old Testament was always meant to be temporary for Israel only Jesus was always foretold to fulfill it which he did but he didn't promise to bring peace to the world that will come when we stop sinning which we cant since it's in our nature. 

Pardon me for stepping into this heated argument, but this detail you point out raises some serious questions.

Are all of the laws that are in the Old Testament 100% abrogated? Because when you observe the Dietary Laws that are in Leviticus 11 they seem to be abrogated by Romans 14. So, Christians can justify on their end to eat pork and drink alcohol based on the teachings of the New Testament.

Furthermore, Prophet Jesus/Isa (AS) did pointed out that he was strictly sent to the Children of Israel not for the rest of Humanity based on Matthew 15:21-28 where he tests the faith of the Canaanite Woman. How do you prove that Prophet Jesus/Isa (AS) was really sent for all mankind when his mission to guide the Israelite Tribes was of far greater importance since he was the last True Prophet for the Israelites?

As for your statement with how you assume Islam favors Ishmael more so than Prophet Isaac (AS), cannot be further from the truth. What Islam is challenging however is the wrongdoing Ishmael or should I say Prophet Ismail/Ishmael (AS) had done that the Torah (First Five Books of the Old Testament) addresses and the superiority complex the Children of Israel have displayed.

While you bring out a valid point as to where Prophet Muhammad (SAW) mentioned he saw The God of Abraham, you're forgetting one crucial historical and genealogical detail of Him (SAW) being born from the Hashemite Tribes who are one of the biggest Monotheistic Tribes of Arabia and their lineage comes from Prophet Ismail/Ishmael (AS).

https://www.al-islam.org/muhammad-yasin-jibouri/muhammad-background-and-immediate-family

Just as there were 12 Tribes of Israel there were also 12 Tribes of Ishmael.

Are you denying that Ishmael and his later descendents down the line were NOT monotheists which is a fundamental belief that Prophet Ibrahim/Abraham (AS) emphasized? Thus, my biggest question among all of this. What was The Biblical Ishmael's wrongdoing?

Also, Paul was actually more interested in Prophet Jesus/Isa (AS) as a "person" more so than on his "teachings" which the New Testament accurately represents. The Law of Circumcision is abrogated, the Dietary Law is abrogated. There is no evidence that Jesus/Isa (AS) ever was the founder of the religion Christianity.

Either way, the war between Judaism, Christianity, and Islam is not just any petty war. It's a holy racial tribal war between two brothers in faith: The Israelites vs. The Ishmaelites.

All because Prophet Abraham/Ibrahim wedded with Hagar/Hajra under Sarah's order and Sarah's jealousy ultimately caused the division between the two brothers in faith.

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22 minutes ago, Mishael said:

Hashemites were not monotheistic even Sunni Muslims don't say they weren't monotheistic they just hold Mohammed to be the monotheist. Mohammeds ancestors had names like Abdul Uzza and Abd Manaf these are pagan names. Jesus’ words to the Canaanite woman also show an awareness of Israel’s place in God’s plan of salvation. God revealed through Moses that the children of Israel were “a holy people to the LORD . . . chosen . . . a special treasure above all the peoples on the face of the earth” (Deuteronomy 7:6). It was through the Jews that God issued His Law, preserved His Word, and sent His Son. This is why, elsewhere, Jesus tells a Samaritan that “salvation is of the Jews” (John 4:22). In Matthew 15, when the Jewish Messiah says that He was sent to “the house of Israel,” He is simply connecting His presence with God’s purpose in Old Testament history. We should understand Jesus’ words here not as an outright rejection of the Gentiles—moments later, He heals the woman’s daughter (Matthew 15:28)—but as a fulfillment of prophecy, a setting of priorities, and a test of the woman’s faith. Christ was “born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law” (Galatians 4:4-5). This act of compassion and healing of a Gentile is a beautiful picture of Christ’s ministry to the whole world—the Jewish Messiah is also the Savior of all who will believe (Matthew 28:19; John 10:16; Acts 10:34-36; Revelation 5:9).

 

The Old Testament laws were never for Christians just for the children of Israel so there was no abrogation the New Testament was a fulfillment of the Old Testament.

The part where I bolded out is truly interesting. I wasn't aware of these Arab names having pagan origins. I'll do some research on this. Then again you're pointing out the Sunni perspective of Prophet Muhammad (SAW)'s genealogical background and what they think of the Hashemite Tribes which I wasn't looking for, but fair enough on your end. I was actually looking for a more Shia perspective of this.

As for your last statement that I bolded out of convenience allow me to understand this. What you're implying is that The New Testament Laws are meant for Gentiles/Goyim (Cattle, Non-Abraham Covenant Person) to practice while the Old Testament Laws are for the Children of Israel to practice? If this is the case, then how can the New Testament be a fulfillment of the Old Testament exactly? This doesn't add up when there are clearly Tribal Connotations within the Torah/Bible where these scriptures were written SPECIFICALLY for them and for them only. I understand that Christians don't necessarily have to belong within the Tribe of Israel, but you can't deny that there are some serious Tribal connotations all around the Torah/Bible that was written for the Israelites to live up to The Word of The God of Abraham. So the New Testament doesn't fulfill the law for the Israelites, but more so abrogates them entirely for appealing to the Gentiles.

Christianity does seem like a black sheep (theologically speaking) in comparison to both Judaism and Islam.

As for your perspective on Prophet Jesus/Isa (AS) testing the faith of the Canaanite Woman it really is up for debate whether he was ONLY sent to guide the Children of Israel based on Matthew 15:24.

Well I thank you for your patience to explain my questions. However, you didn't answer the most important question throughout all of this. What did Ismail/Ishmael do wrong exactly under Judeo-Christian viewpoint? I haven't found a shred of evidence that suggests what did he do wrong exactly within the Torah?

Clearly Islam reveres both Prophet Ismail/Ishmael (AS) and Prophet Isaac (AS) belonging in the covenant of Prophet Abraham/Ibrahim (AS) in Genesis 17 based on the Circumcision Law. Why do you think we Muslims circumcise just as much as Jews do to belong and fulfill the everlasting covenant of being part of Prophet Abraham/Ibrahim (AS) as a family? Prophet Muhammad (SAW) would have been a false prophet indeed if he didn't emphasize this law.

Too bad Paul didn't get the memo on that when Prophet Jesus/Isa (AS) did approve of this law if anyone were to be a devout follower on his (AS)'s teachings. The New Testament is seriously a huge departure from the Old Testament.

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2 hours ago, Mishael said:

Hashemites were not monotheistic even Sunni Muslims don't say they weren't monotheistic they just hold Mohammed to be the monotheist. Mohammeds ancestors had names like Abdul Uzza and Abd Manaf these are pagan names. Jesus’ words to the Canaanite woman also show an awareness of Israel’s place in God’s plan of salvation. God revealed through Moses that the children of Israel were “a holy people to the LORD . . . chosen . . . a special treasure above all the peoples on the face of the earth” (Deuteronomy 7:6). It was through the Jews that God issued His Law, preserved His Word, and sent His Son. This is why, elsewhere, Jesus tells a Samaritan that “salvation is of the Jews” (John 4:22). In Matthew 15, when the Jewish Messiah says that He was sent to “the house of Israel,” He is simply connecting His presence with God’s purpose in Old Testament history. We should understand Jesus’ words here not as an outright rejection of the Gentiles—moments later, He heals the woman’s daughter (Matthew 15:28)—but as a fulfillment of prophecy, a setting of priorities, and a test of the woman’s faith. Christ was “born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law” (Galatians 4:4-5). This act of compassion and healing of a Gentile is a beautiful picture of Christ’s ministry to the whole world—the Jewish Messiah is also the Savior of all who will believe (Matthew 28:19; John 10:16; Acts 10:34-36; Revelation 5:9). The Old Testament laws were never for Christians just for the children of Israel so there was no abrogation the New Testament was a fulfillment of the Old Testament.

hi all of Prophet Mohammad (pbu) were Monotheist

Ancestry of the Holy Prophet (S) and Circumstances of His Forefathers

Ancestry of The Holy Prophet (S)

The well-known genealogy of the Holy Prophet (S) is as follows: Muhammad (S), son of Abdullah son of Abdul Muttalib son of Hashim son of Abde Manaf son of Qusayy son of Kilab son of Marrah son of Lavi son of Ghalib son of Fahar son of Malik son of Nuzayr son of Kananah son of Khuzaimah son of Madrakah son of Ilyas son of Mazar son of Nazar son of Maad son of Adnan son of Ov son of Alyasi son of Alhameesa son of Salaman son of Albant son of Hamal son of Qidar son of Ismail son of Ibrahim Khalil (a.s.) son of Tarukh son of Nakhur son of Sharoogh son of Arghu son of Faalagh son of Aabar son of Shaalakh son of Arfahshad son of Saam son of Nuh son of Malik son of Matushalakh son of Akhnoon son of Alyaaraz son of Mahlaail son of Feenaan son of Anoosh son of Sheeth son of His Eminence, Adam (a.s.).

https://www.al-islam.org/hayat-al-qulub-vol-2-allamah-muhammad-baqir-al-majlisi/ancestry-holy-prophet-s-and-circumstances-his

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2 minutes ago, Mishael said:

Muhammad (S), son of Abdullah son of Abdul Muttalib son of Hashim son of Abde Manaf and one of Qusayy's sons had the name Abdul Uzza these names are enough proof they weren't monotheistic since Al Uzza and Manaf were pagan gods look them up if you want.

just saying names don't proof anything you must consider also meaning of it by your logic if a Mishael was pagan so you will be pagan.  

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6 hours ago, Mishael said:

عبدالعزى and عبدمناف are all pagan names Abdul Uzza means slave or servant of Al Uzza and Abd Manaf means slave or servant of Manaf so your saying they are monotheistic yet have names which mean slave of this god and slave of that god.

Prophet Jacob pbuh was given the name Isra'el by God.

The name of Prophet Dani'el means God is my judge.

So we know El corresponds to the One and true God, but pagans took the name El and called and worshipped their deities by the name. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_(deity)

So by this logic someone could say Daniel and Jacob were pagans because the pagans had deity by the name of El. Like brother Ashvazdanghe wrote just the names don't prove anything, when you don't know the meaning of these names and how the pagans took them and named their deities with them.

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3 hours ago, Mishael said:

Firstly Al Uzza and Manaf were pagan gods worshipped in Arabia Abd means servant or slave of so when I say Abd Al Uzza or Abd Manaf it means servant

They was names of God at first but pagan tribest later used for name of Idols if children of Ishmael were wild so children of Isaac were savages because they always disobeyed prophets (as) & killed most of them , they also tried to kill Jesus but they failed

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