Is the Qur'an from GOD?

MohammadAli1993 · January 4, 2018

SalamAlaykum Dear Brothers and Sister,

This question might have been asked a several times on SC but what evidence do we have that the Qur'an has no ERRORS and that it is from GOD

What is the biggest EVIDENCE that makes you say "YES THE QURAN IS WITHOUT A DOUBT FROM Allah AND THERE NO MISTAKES"

As we also are aware, there are VARIANTS of the QURAN such as HAFS and WARSH. If the QURAN is the UNALTERED Word from the CREATOR then why are there VARIANTS

The VARIANTS arent the main focus of this THREAD but the EVIDENCE for it being from the CREATOR and that it has no ERRORS

PLEASE DO NOT BRING VERSES WHICH MENTION IT IS FROM Allah OR THAT IT DOESNT CONTAIN ERRORS AS THAT IS A CIRCULAR ARGUMENT

Peace

MohammadAli1993 · January 5, 2018

Anybody? Please brothers and sisters.

Husayni · January 5, 2018

Salam,

Please watch this lecture

MohammadAli1993 · January 5, 2018

3 minutes ago, Hussaini624 said:

Salam,

Please watch this lecture

Salam

I will watch it again and will come back with a detailed reply. Thanks

Husayni · January 5, 2018

1 minute ago, MohammadAli1993 said:

Salam

I will watch it again and will come back with a detailed reply. Thanks

Np.

Ashvazdanghe · January 5, 2018

Salam at that time of Prophet (pbu) unbeleivers were saiying that Prophet learned it from Salman the Persian That knowledge of all previous religions when they failed after Islam that Holy Quran is created not revealed.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salman_the_Persian

Husayni · January 5, 2018

Salam Alaikum,

Here are more interesting video clips which prove the miraculous Quran's divinity.

S.M.H.A. · January 5, 2018

Post 1:

FYI

Quote

The Best Miracles Are Those Which Best Resemble the Most Advanced Arts of the Time.

A miracle, as explained above, is an occurrence that breaks the laws of nature and which other human beings cannot imitate when a prophet-claimant performs it to demonstrate the truthfulness of his claim. What is beyond doubt is that a miracle can be recognized as such only by specialists in the art the miracle resembles. This is The Inimitability of the Qur'an 43 because the specialist is necessarily the most knowledgeable about the peculiarities of his art or craft, and possesses the most adequate grasp of its characteristics. Hence, he can distinguish between what human beings can do and what they cannot. Consequently, the specialists are the ones who more readily believe the miracle. The layman, in contrast, has a wider scope for doubt as long as he is ignorant about the laws of that art, and as long as there is a likelihood that the pretender had made use of laws that are known only to the specialists in that particular field. He would thus be slow to concede its veracity. It is for this reason that divine wisdom has decided that each prophet should perform the kind of miracles that best resemble the known arts of his age, in which there are many specialists among his contemporaries, so that the miracle would be quickly believed and firmly established as evidence [for his claim].

.....

As for the Arabs, they were distinguished in the art of literary style and were celebrated for the eloquence of their language. They had reached the pinnacle of literary art, to the extent that they used to hold assemblies and gatherings to compete in poetry and oration. A person [competing at these gatherings] was rated by the literary excellence of what he said. Their love for poetry was so great that they selected the seven odes, wrote them with gold water on papyrus, and hung them on the walls of the Ka'ba. Thus, it became the practice to call a person's best poem "his gilded poem."3 Among the Arabs, both men and women were interested in literature. Al-Nabigha al-Dhabyani was the first judge [at the contests for] poets. He used to attend the fair of cUkaz during its season, where a red dome of animal hide would be pitched for him. The poets used to come to him to submit their compositions for his opinion.4

It was for this reason that the wisdom of God required that the Prophet of Islam should be endowed with the miracle of the Qur'an's clarity of expression and eloquence. Thus, the Arabs realized that this was the speech of God, and that in eloquence it is beyond human power. This was acknowledged by all Arabs who were not obstinate. This is indicated by a narrative on the authority of Ibn al-Sukayt.

He asked [the eighth Imam] Abu al-Hasan al-Rida (peace be upon him):

Why did God send Moses (peace be upon him) with the [miraculous] staff, white hands, and the power of magic, [whereas] he sent Jesus with the power of healing and Muhammad (peace be upon him and his progeny) with the [power of] speech and oration? The Imam Abu al-Hasan replied: This is because when God sent Moses (peace be upon him), what prevailed among the people of his time was magic. Thus, he brought them from God something that no one among them could perform, and which rendered their magic null and void; and with that He established the proof for them. And God sent Jesus (peace be upon him) at a time when chronic illnesses had appeared and people needed the medical sciences. Jesus brought them from God something the like of which they did not have, and by means of which he raised them from the dead, and healed the blind and the lepers, with God's leave. Thus, he established the proof for them. And God sent Muhammad (peace be upon him and his progeny) at a time when the art of oration and poetry was prevalent among the people of his time. Thus, he brought them from God his exhortations and his wisdom, which rendered speeches null and void, and he established his proof for them.5

The Prophet performed other miracles besides the Qur'an, such as splitting the moon, the serpent which spoke, and the pebbles which praised God. But the Qur'an is the greatest of these miracles, and the strongest in establishing the proof, for the Arabs, who were ignorant of the natural sciences and the mysteries of the universe, may have doubted these other miracles and attributed them to causes of whose accuracy they were ignorant. The nearest of these causes to their mind was magic, to which they would have attributed these miracles. However, they were not likely to doubt the eloquence of the Qur'an and its inimitability because they understood the techniques of eloquence and comprehended its mysteries. Moreover, those other mysteries were transitory and did not have a lasting effect. In no time they would become a narrative, transmitted from one generation to the next, and leaving the door wide open for doubt. But the Qur'an is here for eternity, and its miracle is continuous over the generations. I shall discuss, in particular, the miracles of the Prophet, other than the Qur'an, and thereby devote some attention to those among contemporary authors and others who deny them.

The Qur'an as a Divine Miracle Every intelligent person to whom the call of Islam has reached knows that Muhammad (peace be upon him and his progeny) announced to all mankind the call to accept Islam, and through the Qur'an, established for them the proof [of the claim to prophethood] and challenged them, with [the Qur'an's] inimitability, to produce its like, even by helping each other in so doing. Then he lowered this and challenged them to produce ten suras [like those in the Qur'an]. And, finally, he challenged them to produce only one sura like it.6

Had that been possible, it would have behooved the Arabs—especially those among them who excelled in eloquence—to take up the Prophet's challenge and invalidate his proof by matching it. Indeed, it would have behooved them to counter one sura of The Inimitability of the Qur'an 45 the Qur'an and match it in eloquence so as to invalidate the proof of this claimant who was challenging them in their most outstanding skill and their most notable distinction. They would thus have gained a manifest victory, endless renown, and eminence in honor and position.

A contest like this would have spared them wars, great expenses, separation from their homeland, and the suffering of hardship and affliction. But the Arabs reflected on the eloquence of the Qur'an and conceded its inimitability, for they knew that they would be defeated trying to match it. Hence, some of them believed the caller to the truth and submitted to the call of the Qur'an and attained the honor of Islam. Others took the course of obduracy and chose to counter with swords rather than words, and preferred a contest of lances to a contest of eloquence. This incapacity and opposition were the ample proof that the Qur'an was a divine revelation beyond human capability

.......

This is in spite of the fact that the Qur'an challenges all humans—rather, all the jinn and humans—without limiting the challenge to any particular group. This is what God the Almighty says to those [who do not believe in the divine origin of the Qur'an]:

Say: "Verily though mankind and the jinn should assemble to produce the like of this Qur'an, they should not produce the like thereof, though they were helpers one of another

(Q. 17:88)

.....

Quote

The Qur'an and the Integrity of Elucidation

.....This type of miracle is alluded to in the following verse revealed by God:

Will they not then ponder on the Qur'an? If it had been from other than God, they would have found therein much inconsistency (Q. 4:82).

This verse guides people to a thing they discern through their innate disposition, and perceive through their natural instinct—namely, that a person who depends on falsehood and calumny in his call would inevitably be incoherent in his speech and contradictory in his elucidation. Such a thing does not occur in the Book of God [the Qur'an]. The Qur'an followed this course in many of its deductions and arguments. It directs people to heed the judgment of their innate disposition, and refers them to their instinct. This is the most effective way of guidance.

The Arabs sensed this rectitude in the methods [of guidance in] the Qur'an, and the knowledgeable in language among them were convinced by that. The words of al-Walid b. al-Mughira, describing the The Inimitability of the Qur'an 55 Qur'an, explain this for us.

He said, on being asked, by Abu Jahl, to say what he thought of the Qur'an:

What should I say about it? By God, there is no one among you who is more knowledgeable than me in poetry or who is more conversant than me in the rajaz meter of poetry,14 or [in] the odes, or the poetry composed by the jinn. I solemnly declare that it [the Qur'an] does not contain anything that resembles any of this [that I know about]. By God, it is the most refined speech; it demolishes what is inferior to it, and it surely surpasses but cannot be surpassed. Abu Jahl said, "By God, your people will not be satisfied until you talk about it."

To this, al-Walid said,

"Then give me time to think about it." After thinking, he said, "This is magic which has been related to him on the authority of someone else."15 In another version, al-Walid is reported to have said: By God, I have heard from him a discourse that is neither the words of humans nor of jinn. It is indeed the most refined speech; it has elegance; the loftiest of it is most fruitful, and the basest is most bountiful. Indeed, it surpasses without being surpassed, and this has not been said by a human being.16 If one wishes to appreciate [the inimitability of the Qur'an], he should study other scriptures ascribed to divine revelation. You will find them incongruent in meaning, disarrayed in style, neither convincing nor firmly connected.

Page 42,44 55

The Prolegomena to the Qur'an

Al-Sayyid Abu Al-Qasim Al Musawi Al Khui

https://althaqalayn.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/al-bayan-ayatullah-khui.pdf

S.M.H.A. · January 5, 2018

Post 2:

Quote

6. The Concept of "al-Qur'an an-Natiq"

"Al-Qur'an an-natiq" means the "speaking Qur'an." This is a famous title given to the Shi'a Imams to describe their proximity to the Qur'an; they are the custodians of the Qur'anic message and its interpretation; they are the embodiment of the Qur'anic values and its ideals. This concept is based on the various sayings of the Prophet in which the Qur'an and the Ahlul Bayt are shown to never separate from one another.

The famous hadith of thaqalayn says:

"I am leaving two precious things behind among you: the Book of Allah and my Ahlul Bayt. The two shall not separate from one another until they come to me at the fountain of Kawthar (on the Day of Resurrection)."13

In another hadith, Umm Salama, the wife of the Prophet, quotes him as follows:

"'Ali is with the Qur'an and the Qur'an is with 'Ali; they shall never separate from one another until they reach to me at the Fountain (on the day of Resurrection)."14

Abu Sa'id al-Khudari reports that one day we were sitting waiting for the Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w.) to come out. He came to us while we saw that the strap of his shoe was broken; he gave it to 'Ali to repair. Then he said,

"One of you will wage war for the interpretation (ta'wil) of the Qur'an just as I waged war for its revelation (tanzil)."

Abu Bakr said, "Am I the one?" The Prophet said, "No." Then 'Umar said, "Am I the one?" The Prophet said, "No, but the one who is repairing the shoe."15

Imam 'Ali himself said, "Ask me before you lose me, for by the One who split the grain and created the soul, if you ask me as to which verse was revealed at night time or at day time, whether it is of Meccan or Medinite [era], during journey (of the Prophet) or while in Medina, whether it is abrogator or abrogated, whether it is clear or allegorical, and whether you need its interpretation or context of its revelation-I shall inform you about it."16

It is based on these facts supported by the Sunni sources that the Shi'as use the title "al-Qur'anu 'n-Natiq" for their Imams. As we saw above, Imam 'Ali himself claims to have the true and inner meanings of the Qur'anic verses. This claim and belief has been there from the earliest days of Shi'ism. So it is incorrect to place the beginning of this concept in the latter period by saying that "the belief that the Imams were the 'speaking (al-natiq) Qur'an,' who knew the esoteric interpretation of the Book, most probably began during al-Baqir's time."17

https://www.al-islam.org/shiism-imamate-and-wilayat-sayyid-muhammad-rizvi/knowledge-ahlul-bayt#6-concept-al-quran-natiq

*****

The English translation (accompanied with original Arabic text) of a collection of letters and sayings of the Commander of the Faithful, Imam Ali ibn Abi Talib (peace be upon him) that provide divine wisdom and eternal guidance for his followers.

https://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-1-sermons

https://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-2-letters-and-sayings

*****

The Event of Taff, The Earliest Historical Account of the Tragedy of Karbala’

https://www.al-islam.org/event-taff-earliest-historical-account-tragedy-karbala-abu-mikhnaf

S.M.H.A. · January 5, 2018

15 hours ago, MohammadAli1993 said:

SalamAlaykum Dear Brothers and Sister,

This question might have been asked a several times on SC but what evidence do we have that the Qur'an has no ERRORS and that it is from GOD

What is the biggest EVIDENCE that makes you say "YES THE QURAN IS WITHOUT A DOUBT FROM Allah AND THERE NO MISTAKES"

As we also are aware, there are VARIANTS of the QURAN such as HAFS and WARSH. If the QURAN is the UNALTERED Word from the CREATOR then why are there VARIANTS

The VARIANTS arent the main focus of this THREAD but the EVIDENCE for it being from the CREATOR and that it has no ERRORS

PLEASE DO NOT BRING VERSES WHICH MENTION IT IS FROM Allah OR THAT IT DOESNT CONTAIN ERRORS AS THAT IS A CIRCULAR ARGUMENT

Peace

The Written Verses and the Verses in Action, do you see any discrepancies?

MohammadAli1993 · January 5, 2018

4 hours ago, S.M.H.A. said:

The Written Verses and the Verses in Action, do you see any discrepancies?

I'm not 100% certain if I'm being honest. Just very confused about the variants of the Quran and why there are differences in between if Allah has protected it Himself

Ashvazdanghe · January 5, 2018

50 minutes ago, MohammadAli1993 said:

I'm not 100% certain if I'm being honest. Just very confused about the variants of the Quran and why there are differences in between if Allah has protected it Himself

The first Quran verses that gathered were in Kufi scripture that doesn’t have signs for reading of It the difference comes from the difference in reading of people from kufi scripture so Imam Ali (as) was the person that explains signs & grammar of Holy Quran that leads to modern Arabic writing & grammar that now is using

Allah protects Quran by tools of that tools are Ahlulbayt (as) thus he said these two never separates from each other if we neglect one of them cause our astray as it happend for non Shias Muslims.

wmehar2 · January 5, 2018

21 hours ago, MohammadAli1993 said:

SalamAlaykum Dear Brothers and Sister,

This question might have been asked a several times on SC but what evidence do we have that the Qur'an has no ERRORS and that it is from GOD

What is the biggest EVIDENCE that makes you say "YES THE QURAN IS WITHOUT A DOUBT FROM Allah AND THERE NO MISTAKES"

As we also are aware, there are VARIANTS of the QURAN such as HAFS and WARSH. If the QURAN is the UNALTERED Word from the CREATOR then why are there VARIANTS

The VARIANTS arent the main focus of this THREAD but the EVIDENCE for it being from the CREATOR and that it has no ERRORS

PLEASE DO NOT BRING VERSES WHICH MENTION IT IS FROM Allah OR THAT IT DOESNT CONTAIN ERRORS AS THAT IS A CIRCULAR ARGUMENT

Peace

The verses concerning Evolution before we devised the theory of evolution. I'm sure you know the verse.

Arminmo · January 6, 2018

11 hours ago, MohammadAli1993 said:

I'm not 100% certain if I'm being honest. Just very confused about the variants of the Quran and why there are differences in between if Allah has protected it Himself

There is only one Quran,not variant:

http://www.islamicity.org/3093/the-oldest-quran-in-the-world/

they just have problem about putting the vowels on it, because as you know, grammatical rules are defined and changed by us, not by god.(he has nothing to do with this.words are unchanged in Quran.)

Edited January 6, 2018 by Arminmo

S.M.H.A. · January 6, 2018

15 hours ago, MohammadAli1993 said:

I'm not 100% certain if I'm being honest. Just very confused about the variants of the Quran and why there are differences in between if Allah has protected it Himself

Some Basic info, Stage 1, level 1 etc.... / Concepts for Layman like us.

Quote

إِنَّا نَحْنُ نَزَّلْنَا الذِّكْرَ وَإِنَّا لَهُ لَحَافِظُونَ {9}

[Shakir 15:9] Surely We have revealed the Reminder and We will most surely be its guardian.
[Pickthal 15:9] Lo! We, even We, reveal the Reminder, and lo! We verily are its Guardian.
[Yusufali 15:9] We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption).
[Pooya/Ali Commentary 15:9]

Allah has taken the work of guarding the Quran. Allah's pure and holy truth will never suffer tahrif (alteration). See Aqa Mahdi Puya's essay "The genuineness of the holy Quran."

The heavenly scriptures revealed prior to the Quran had been profusely tampered with. Some were restyled and disguised and some were consigned to oblivion. See "The Tawrat" and "The Injil" on pages 374 to 376. Therefore, the Almighty Allah decisively willed to keep His final book of wisdom free from permutation. For this purpose He selected the Ahl ul Bayt. The Quran and the Ahl ul Bayt are the two equal and correlative choices of Allah. Together they constitute guidance, wisdom and mercy from the Lord of the worlds unto mankind. See hadith al thaqalayn on page 6 and commentary of al Baqarah: 2.

Aqa Mahdi Puya says:

This verse gives answer to the accusation the disbelievers have made in verse 6 of this surah. When the Quran is kept safe in its original purity the Holy Prophet is also protected from all types of ungodly influences. The Ahl ul Bayt are not only the custodians of the book of Allah but also they keep the true character of the Holy Prophet safe from distortion by the false traditions fabricated by some of his companions in order to bring him on the level of their heroes.

http://quran.al-islam.org/

justAnothermuslim · January 6, 2018

[Shakir 56:79] None shall touch it save the purified ones.

i can touch the mashaf but i know definitely i'm not among the purified ones.

Edited January 6, 2018 by justAnothermuslim

MohammadAli1993 · January 6, 2018

8 hours ago, Arminmo said:

There is only one Quran,not variant:

http://www.islamicity.org/3093/the-oldest-quran-in-the-world/

they just have problem about putting the vowels on it, because as you know, grammatical rules are defined and changed by us, not by god.(he has nothing to do with this.words are unchanged in Quran.)

I don't understand you. The vowels change the meaning of the word completely. Doesn't that show that there are variants of the Quran. You tell me now.. Is there are difference between 'They said' and 'He said'

Arminmo · January 6, 2018

9 minutes ago, MohammadAli1993 said:

Is there are difference between 'They said' and 'He said'

Translation for the words you said قال هو قال هم

What you said, it has nothing to do with vowels, do you know whats the meaning of vowel?

Also remember that, words in quran have deep meanings (not neccessarily one meaning) , even if you put vowels on it, still you can get different meanings from it.

Edited January 6, 2018 by Arminmo

Arminmo · January 6, 2018

34 minutes ago, justAnothermuslim said:

[Shakir 56:79] None shall touch it save the purified ones.

i can touch the mashaf but i know definitely i'm not among the purified ones.

The verse is kind of an imparative statement, that should be translated something like this : "you shall not touch the words unless if you have purified yourself (by water,otherwise you have commited a sin, and god will punish you in judgment day.)

Because they have translated quran word by word,without paying attention to the general meaning of the verse, thats why reading translation is not right, you should learn arabic.

Edited January 6, 2018 by Arminmo

Ashvazdanghe · January 6, 2018

13 minutes ago, Arminmo said:

45 minutes ago, justAnothermuslim said:

[Shakir 56:79] None shall touch it save the purified ones.

i can touch the mashaf but i know definitely i'm not among the purified ones.

The verse is kind of an imparative statement, that should be translated something like this : "you shall not touch the words unless if you have purified yourself (by water,otherwise you have commited a sin, and god will punish you in judgment day.)

Because they have translated quran word by word,without paying attention to the general meaning of the verse, thats why reading translation is not right, you should learn arabic.

The Ahlulbayt (as) are purified too 33:33 so for touching their names is like touching words of Holy Quran even their followers when wanted to talk to them at least make wudu to talk to them but Ahlulbayt are as the same as Holy Quran because they are speakn(National) Quran so when they & Quran are the same so they can touch it as said.

justAnothermuslim · January 6, 2018

7 hours ago, Arminmo said:

The verse is kind of an imparative statement, that should be translated something like this : "you shall not touch the words unless if you have purified yourself (by water,otherwise you have commited a sin, and god will punish you in judgment day.)

Because they have translated quran word by word,without paying attention to the general meaning of the verse, thats why reading translation is not right, you should learn arabic.

[Shakir 56:77] Most surely it is an honored Quran.

[Shakir 56:78] In a book that is protected

[Shakir 56:79] None shall touch it save the purified ones.

what i'm trying to say is, which "Quran", OP is referring to?

it was reported that imam ali (as) told 2nd caliph "None shall touch it save the purified ones (meaning imams from Ahlul Bayt)" about the Quran he (as) has compiled.

thanks anyway for the recommendation.

justAnothermuslim · January 6, 2018

On 1/6/2018 at 4:30 AM, wmehar2 said:

The verses concerning Evolution before we devised the theory of evolution. I'm sure you know the verse.

this is really perplexing. Quran is a proof of Allah's existence and at the same time, it's a proof for the correctness of theory of evolution, which negates the existence of Allah?

why don't you argue your case in delusion of evolutionists

Edited January 6, 2018 by justAnothermuslim

Arminmo · January 6, 2018

16 minutes ago, justAnothermuslim said:

[Shakir 56:77] Most surely it is an honored Quran.

[Shakir 56:78] In a book that is protected

[Shakir 56:79] None shall touch it save the purified ones.

what i'm trying to say is, which "Quran", OP is referring to?

it was reported that imam ali (as) told 2nd caliph "None shall touch it save the purified ones (meaning imams from Ahlul Bayt)" about the Quran he (as) has compiled.

thanks anyway for the recommendation.

God has a "لوح محفوظ” with himself, that Quran is part of that. Knowledge of that one is only with himself.

wmehar2 · January 7, 2018

4 hours ago, justAnothermuslim said:

this is really perplexing. Quran is a proof of Allah's existence and at the same time, it's a proof for the correctness of theory of evolution, which negates the existence of Allah?

why don't you argue your case in delusion of evolutionists

Negates existence of Allah'? why would it?

justAnothermuslim · January 7, 2018

2 hours ago, wmehar2 said:

Negates existence of Allah'? why would it?

salam bro

hmmmm...i thought this theory is an attempt to explain how this universe came into being by those who don't believe in God.

Highly energetic chemistry is thought to have produced a self-replicating molecule around 4 billion years ago, and half a billion years later the last common ancestor of all life existed.[17] The current scientific consensus is that the complex biochemistry that makes up life came from simpler chemical reactions.[285] The beginning of life may have included self-replicating molecules such as RNA [286] and the assembly of simple cells.[287]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution#Evolutionary_history_of_life

I'm not here to put words in your mouth and just reacted to what you wrote

On 1/6/2018 at 4:30 AM, wmehar2 said:

The verses concerning Evolution before we devised the theory of evolution. I'm sure you know the verse.

if you truly believe in Quran, then pls pay heed to this quranic verse

[Shakir 16:25] That they may bear their burdens entirely on the day of resurrection and also of the burdens of those whom they lead astray without knowledge; now surely evil is what they bear.

peace.

**Ayuoobi** · January 7, 2018

@MohammadAli1993 It is not circular to quote the Quran about its innerancy if we have independent grounds for affirmin that te Quran is a Divine revelation. These include its coherence, philosophical depth, balagha, scientific predictions, but most importantly - the direct witness of it's truth with the eye of the heart.

There is an implicit argument that your line of thought seems to be making, which is as follows:

1. If God revealed a Divine text that is protected, then no variants can occur.

2. Variants occur.

3. Therefore, God did not reveal a Divinely revealed text that is protected.

Here's the problem with this argument. First of all, it ignores the fact that a Divinely revealed text that is protect nevertheless is transmitted through a human medium. The Quran was memorized by the early companions and then taught to subsequent generations; the vast majority of people could not read and write for centuries even when the Quran was written in a codex. For the Quran to be perfectly preserved through a chain of oral transmission without any failings in the memory of any of these chains of transmissions would require that God created men infallible. This is obviously not the case, nor should it cause one to have an entire upheaval of faith because one chain of transmission moved a thamma or a fatha. The truth of the matter of what the correct reading is, is to be determined like all other aspects of our Deen - through scholarly analysis. Does it cause you to have an upheaval of your religion because currently we don't have an Imam present to issue fatwas - consequently the entirety of our understanding of the Shariah is an almost certainly flawed approximation based on human reasoning? If not, then why do the extremely minor variants of the Quran create such discomfort? Our deen is based on the witness of the heart that the Quran leads one to - the Quran performs this function and is a rope from the heavens to the earth. The meaning of the Quran being "protected" is not that nobody can physically change it. If i were to take a magic marker to a mushaf right now and change some ayaat, is a lightning bolt going to strike me from the sky? No. So when someone memorized the Quran and made a mistake with a fatha or a dhamma, Allah SWT did not cause a thunderbolt to strike him from the sky or something. Rather, the Imams affirmed that what is read with the people is sufficient for us until the return of the Mahdi, when all disputes in the Deen, from fiqh to variant readings will be resolved. It is important to note that the Imams affirmed that there is only one correct reading; so the question is simply epistemological rather than ontological (i.e. how do we know which reading is correct for what verse, not that there are multiple correct readings in principle).

One might argue that there is more to the Quran than simply the direct witness of the Truth in the heart it leads one to - that the Quran is filled with doctrine. Okay, so then in order to show that the Quran is not preserved in a way undermines this function of explicating doctrine, the opponent must show how a variant reading of the Quran changes a fundamental doctrine of the Deen. And of course, they will not be able to do that, because the Quran is preserved regarding the essential doctrines of the Deen.

The Quran is the verbatim word of God, but it was transferred from human being to human being. Given how the Quran was transmitted and how many variants we have of any other ancient oral transmission of that period - heck even written texts of that period, the overarching unity of the Quran and the fact that these variants are so minor and so few is in fact a miracle that attests to Allah's preservation of it. I mean seriously, I do not think you can find another ancient text in history prior to the modern period that has been so well preserved, with so few and so minor variations, and ones that do not change the fundamental doctrines is remarkable. If you look at other texts, many times the variations create significant differences in meaning and so the debate actually matters. In the case of the Muslims, the variations are something only scholars discuss on very minute issues and one that does not in any way affect the practice or beliefs of the Muslims.

If you doubt the Quran has been preserved in this meaning - then consider the following. If tomorrow the entire Muslim ummah switched from reciting Hafs to reciting Warsh, and all the current Qurans were switched to Warsh, would there be any difference in anyone's life? No. The Muslims would remain entirely the same as they are now. Compare this to the Bible, where the addition or subtraction of John 1:1 or the inclusion of some books which the Catholics include versus exclude, etc creates fundamental changes in their belief.

You might wonder why Allah did not "perfectly" preserve the literal text itself, from any variation in dhamma, kasra etc itself. The reasons are threefold. First, as stated earlier, it requires that men be infallible, which undermines the purpose of the dunya - for this precisely is the realm of fitna and misunderstanding and human imperfection and folly. Secondly, these minor variations teach us that in fact what is important about the Quran is that its literal correctness is still only of relative importance; what is of ultimate importance is its function as rope between heavens and the earth (i.e. its metaphysical perfection, which has been perfectly preserved.) If Allah had perfectly preserved its literal meaning, then men would be tempted to think that the Quran just is the words in human language, whereas the fact that these variations exist, however minor, shows that ultimately it is the metaphysical reality of the Quran which is primary and immutable. Thirdly, as with other aspects of our Deen - the fiqh, the details of Aqeedah and philosophy, etc. we are in a period without an Imam who is dhaahir, and hence we are in the period of fitna. The perfection of the Quran, and hence the Deen, will only be made manifest with the coming of the Imam. Prior to that, we are unworthy of perfection and must endure the period of fitna relying on none but Allah and doing our best given what we have. May Allah make it easy for us.

@Qa'im please add your thoughts iA.

justAnothermuslim · January 7, 2018

7 hours ago, Arminmo said:

God has a "لوح محفوظ” with himself, that Quran is part of that. Knowledge of that one is only with himself.

7 hours ago, justAnothermuslim said:

[Shakir 56:77] Most surely it is an honored Quran.

[Shakir 56:78] In a book that is protected

[Shakir 56:79] None shall touch it save the purified ones.

what i'm trying to say is, which "Quran", OP is referring to?

it was reported that imam ali (as) told 2nd caliph "None shall touch it save the purified ones (meaning imams from Ahlul Bayt)" about the Quran he (as) has compiled.

thanks anyway for the recommendation.

any comment on why imam ali (as) quoted quran [56:79] as a response to the request by 2nd caliph, as reported? thanks.

Edited January 7, 2018 by justAnothermuslim

MohammadAli1993 · January 7, 2018

2 hours ago, Ayuoobi said:

@MohammadAli1993 It is not circular to quote the Quran about its innerancy if we have independent grounds for affirmin that te Quran is a Divine revelation. These include its coherence, philosophical depth, balagha, scientific predictions, but most importantly - the direct witness of it's truth with the eye of the heart.

There is an implicit argument that your line of thought seems to be making, which is as follows:

1. If God revealed a Divine text that is protected, then no variants can occur.

2. Variants occur.

3. Therefore, God did not reveal a Divinely revealed text that is protected.

Here's the problem with this argument. First of all, it ignores the fact that a Divinely revealed text that is protect nevertheless is transmitted through a human medium. The Quran was memorized by the early companions and then taught to subsequent generations; the vast majority of people could not read and write for centuries even when the Quran was written in a codex. For the Quran to be perfectly preserved through a chain of oral transmission without any failings in the memory of any of these chains of transmissions would require that God created men infallible. This is obviously not the case, nor should it cause one to have an entire upheaval of faith because one chain of transmission moved a thamma or a fatha. The truth of the matter of what the correct reading is, is to be determined like all other aspects of our Deen - through scholarly analysis. Does it cause you to have an upheaval of your religion because currently we don't have an Imam present to issue fatwas - consequently the entirety of our understanding of the Shariah is an almost certainly flawed approximation based on human reasoning? If not, then why do the extremely minor variants of the Quran create such discomfort? Our deen is based on the witness of the heart that the Quran leads one to - the Quran performs this function and is a rope from the heavens to the earth. The meaning of the Quran being "protected" is not that nobody can physically change it. If i were to take a magic marker to a mushaf right now and change some ayaat, is a lightning bolt going to strike me from the sky? No. So when someone memorized the Quran and made a mistake with a fatha or a dhamma, Allah SWT did not cause a thunderbolt to strike him from the sky or something. Rather, the Imams affirmed that what is read with the people is sufficient for us until the return of the Mahdi, when all disputes in the Deen, from fiqh to variant readings will be resolved. It is important to note that the Imams affirmed that there is only one correct reading; so the question is simply epistemological rather than ontological (i.e. how do we know which reading is correct for what verse, not that there are multiple correct readings in principle).

One might argue that there is more to the Quran than simply the direct witness of the Truth in the heart it leads one to - that the Quran is filled with doctrine. Okay, so then in order to show that the Quran is not preserved in a way undermines this function of explicating doctrine, the opponent must show how a variant reading of the Quran changes a fundamental doctrine of the Deen. And of course, they will not be able to do that, because the Quran is preserved regarding the essential doctrines of the Deen.

The Quran is the verbatim word of God, but it was transferred from human being to human being. Given how the Quran was transmitted and how many variants we have of any other ancient oral transmission of that period - heck even written texts of that period, the overarching unity of the Quran and the fact that these variants are so minor and so few is in fact a miracle that attests to Allah's preservation of it. I mean seriously, I do not think you can find another ancient text in history prior to the modern period that has been so well preserved, with so few and so minor variations, and ones that do not change the fundamental doctrines is remarkable. If you look at other texts, many times the variations create significant differences in meaning and so the debate actually matters. In the case of the Muslims, the variations are something only scholars discuss on very minute issues and one that does not in any way affect the practice or beliefs of the Muslims.

If you doubt the Quran has been preserved in this meaning - then consider the following. If tomorrow the entire Muslim ummah switched from reciting Hafs to reciting Warsh, and all the current Qurans were switched to Warsh, would there be any difference in anyone's life? No. The Muslims would remain entirely the same as they are now. Compare this to the Bible, where the addition or subtraction of John 1:1 or the inclusion of some books which the Catholics include versus exclude, etc creates fundamental changes in their belief.

You might wonder why Allah did not "perfectly" preserve the literal text itself, from any variation in dhamma, kasra etc itself. The reasons are threefold. First, as stated earlier, it requires that men be infallible, which undermines the purpose of the dunya - for this precisely is the realm of fitna and misunderstanding and human imperfection and folly. Secondly, these minor variations teach us that in fact what is important about the Quran is that its literal correctness is still only of relative importance; what is of ultimate importance is its function as rope between heavens and the earth (i.e. its metaphysical perfection, which has been perfectly preserved.) If Allah had perfectly preserved its literal meaning, then men would be tempted to think that the Quran just is the words in human language, whereas the fact that these variations exist, however minor, shows that ultimately it is the metaphysical reality of the Quran which is primary and immutable. Thirdly, as with other aspects of our Deen - the fiqh, the details of Aqeedah and philosophy, etc. we are in a period without an Imam who is dhaahir, and hence we are in the period of fitna. The perfection of the Quran, and hence the Deen, will only be made manifest with the coming of the Imam. Prior to that, we are unworthy of perfection and must endure the period of fitna relying on none but Allah and doing our best given what we have. May Allah make it easy for us.

@Qa'im please add your thoughts iA.

I appreciate your lengthy reply brother. May Allah bless you. I'm closely following all the replies on this thread.

Thanks again everybody.

Edited January 7, 2018 by MohammadAli1993

wmehar2 · January 7, 2018

9 hours ago, justAnothermuslim said:

salam bro

hmmmm...i thought this theory is an attempt to explain how this universe came into being by those who don't believe in God.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution#Evolutionary_history_of_life

I'm not here to put words in your mouth and just reacted to what you wrote

if you truly believe in Quran, then pls pay heed to this quranic verse

[Shakir 16:25] That they may bear their burdens entirely on the day of resurrection and also of the burdens of those whom they lead astray without knowledge; now surely evil is what they bear.

peace.

......Bro...

Allah SWT says:

أَوَلَمْ يَرَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوٓا أَنَّ السَّمٰوٰتِ وَالْأَرْضَ كَانَتَا رَتْقًا فَفَتَقْنٰهُمَا ۖ وَجَعَلْنَا مِنَ الْمَآءِ كُلَّ شَىْءٍ حَىٍّ ۖ أَفَلَا يُؤْمِنُونَ
"Have those who disbelieved not considered that the heavens and the earth were a joined entity, and We separated them and made from water every living thing? Then will they not believe?"
(QS. Al-Anbiyaa 21: Verse 30)

* Via Qur'an English http://quran-en.com

^^^ does this not agree with above link?

Allah SWT says:

وَاللَّهُ خَلَقَ كُلَّ دَآبَّةٍ مِّنْ مَّآءٍ ۖ فَمِنْهُمْ مَّنْ يَمْشِى عَلٰى بَطْنِهِۦ وَمِنْهُمْ مَّنْ يَمْشِى عَلٰى رِجْلَيْنِ وَمِنْهُمْ مَّنْ يَمْشِى عَلٰىٓ أَرْبَعٍ ۚ يَخْلُقُ اللَّهُ مَا يَشَآءُ ۚ إِنَّ اللَّهَ عَلٰى كُلِّ شَىْءٍ قَدِيرٌ
"Allah has created every [living] creature from water. And of them are those that move on their bellies, and of them are those that walk on two legs, and of them are those that walk on four. Allah creates what He wills. Indeed, Allah is over all things competent."
(QS. An-Noor 24: Verse 45)

* Via Qur'an English http://quran-en.com

Every living creature created from water.

This theory, these verses, this knowledge was told to muslims years ago...but not understood.

Allah in 21:30, makes a case for humankind, begging the question if we have already discovered about Big Bang (heavens and earth joined then splitting) and all living things coming from the same substance, then considers why we should not beleive.

Call me crazy for taking this connection/interpretation because it does inspire belief. Especially because these verses were in here before we had any semblance of putting that evolution link together.

Check back to beginning of that timeline in your link, when we all were just nothing, water.

wmehar2 · January 7, 2018

10 hours ago, Ayuoobi said:

@MohammadAli1993 It is not circular to quote the Quran about its innerancy if we have independent grounds for affirmin that te Quran is a Divine revelation. These include its coherence, philosophical depth, balagha, scientific predictions, but most importantly - the direct witness of it's truth with the eye of the heart.

There is an implicit argument that your line of thought seems to be making, which is as follows:

1. If God revealed a Divine text that is protected, then no variants can occur.

2. Variants occur.

3. Therefore, God did not reveal a Divinely revealed text that is protected.

Here's the problem with this argument. First of all, it ignores the fact that a Divinely revealed text that is protect nevertheless is transmitted through a human medium. The Quran was memorized by the early companions and then taught to subsequent generations; the vast majority of people could not read and write for centuries even when the Quran was written in a codex. For the Quran to be perfectly preserved through a chain of oral transmission without any failings in the memory of any of these chains of transmissions would require that God created men infallible. This is obviously not the case, nor should it cause one to have an entire upheaval of faith because one chain of transmission moved a thamma or a fatha. The truth of the matter of what the correct reading is, is to be determined like all other aspects of our Deen - through scholarly analysis. Does it cause you to have an upheaval of your religion because currently we don't have an Imam present to issue fatwas - consequently the entirety of our understanding of the Shariah is an almost certainly flawed approximation based on human reasoning? If not, then why do the extremely minor variants of the Quran create such discomfort? Our deen is based on the witness of the heart that the Quran leads one to - the Quran performs this function and is a rope from the heavens to the earth. The meaning of the Quran being "protected" is not that nobody can physically change it. If i were to take a magic marker to a mushaf right now and change some ayaat, is a lightning bolt going to strike me from the sky? No. So when someone memorized the Quran and made a mistake with a fatha or a dhamma, Allah SWT did not cause a thunderbolt to strike him from the sky or something. Rather, the Imams affirmed that what is read with the people is sufficient for us until the return of the Mahdi, when all disputes in the Deen, from fiqh to variant readings will be resolved. It is important to note that the Imams affirmed that there is only one correct reading; so the question is simply epistemological rather than ontological (i.e. how do we know which reading is correct for what verse, not that there are multiple correct readings in principle).

One might argue that there is more to the Quran than simply the direct witness of the Truth in the heart it leads one to - that the Quran is filled with doctrine. Okay, so then in order to show that the Quran is not preserved in a way undermines this function of explicating doctrine, the opponent must show how a variant reading of the Quran changes a fundamental doctrine of the Deen. And of course, they will not be able to do that, because the Quran is preserved regarding the essential doctrines of the Deen.

The Quran is the verbatim word of God, but it was transferred from human being to human being. Given how the Quran was transmitted and how many variants we have of any other ancient oral transmission of that period - heck even written texts of that period, the overarching unity of the Quran and the fact that these variants are so minor and so few is in fact a miracle that attests to Allah's preservation of it. I mean seriously, I do not think you can find another ancient text in history prior to the modern period that has been so well preserved, with so few and so minor variations, and ones that do not change the fundamental doctrines is remarkable. If you look at other texts, many times the variations create significant differences in meaning and so the debate actually matters. In the case of the Muslims, the variations are something only scholars discuss on very minute issues and one that does not in any way affect the practice or beliefs of the Muslims.

If you doubt the Quran has been preserved in this meaning - then consider the following. If tomorrow the entire Muslim ummah switched from reciting Hafs to reciting Warsh, and all the current Qurans were switched to Warsh, would there be any difference in anyone's life? No. The Muslims would remain entirely the same as they are now. Compare this to the Bible, where the addition or subtraction of John 1:1 or the inclusion of some books which the Catholics include versus exclude, etc creates fundamental changes in their belief.

You might wonder why Allah did not "perfectly" preserve the literal text itself, from any variation in dhamma, kasra etc itself. The reasons are threefold. First, as stated earlier, it requires that men be infallible, which undermines the purpose of the dunya - for this precisely is the realm of fitna and misunderstanding and human imperfection and folly. Secondly, these minor variations teach us that in fact what is important about the Quran is that its literal correctness is still only of relative importance; what is of ultimate importance is its function as rope between heavens and the earth (i.e. its metaphysical perfection, which has been perfectly preserved.) If Allah had perfectly preserved its literal meaning, then men would be tempted to think that the Quran just is the words in human language, whereas the fact that these variations exist, however minor, shows that ultimately it is the metaphysical reality of the Quran which is primary and immutable. Thirdly, as with other aspects of our Deen - the fiqh, the details of Aqeedah and philosophy, etc. we are in a period without an Imam who is dhaahir, and hence we are in the period of fitna. The perfection of the Quran, and hence the Deen, will only be made manifest with the coming of the Imam. Prior to that, we are unworthy of perfection and must endure the period of fitna relying on none but Allah and doing our best given what we have. May Allah make it easy for us.

@Qa'im please add your thoughts iA.

I beleive an argument can be made that It may be more efficient to preserve the Quran human to human, memory to memory.

It can be argued and it has that Arabic language is a melodic/phonetically enhanced language that is purely meant for effective oral communication (and poor written communication). Elements of rhythm, intonation, etc. are culturally inherent to the language and of course stimulate the brain to recall audio/musical elements with great ease.

Human beings are 400 times more (you may look up the research this on this) likely to store and recall musical/audio cues than other modes of preception.

Its widely known Arabs were able to recall ancestors to the 24th degree; memorize poems and other literature well before the Quran was delivered; with great ease.

In fact its not hard to see why something like Quran can be preserved effectively when hundreds took to memorizing it, for each new memorizer creates one more person to check, and validate any significant variances.

Also I would not discount that it may be God's plan that a certain sequence of events that transpired over time that would impact the Quran being arranged the way it is today. after all God says in quran that they will be guardians/preservers of it, not us.

So I would argue it wasnt humans who preserved Quran, because we did not choose ourselves to be 400 times more inclined to memorize musical/melodic information, nor did the arabs choose to be born with the arabic language that houses these elements.

S.M.H.A. · January 7, 2018

2 hours ago, wmehar2 said:

It can be argued and it has that Arabic language is a melodic/phonetically enhanced language that is purely meant for effective oral communication (and poor written communication). Elements of rhythm, intonation, etc. are culturally inherent to the language and of course stimulate the brain to recall audio/musical elements with great ease.

You are a Literalist/Quranist? A Technical person?

justAnothermuslim · January 8, 2018

8 hours ago, wmehar2 said:

......Bro...

Allah SWT says:

أَوَلَمْ يَرَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوٓا أَنَّ السَّمٰوٰتِ وَالْأَرْضَ كَانَتَا رَتْقًا فَفَتَقْنٰهُمَا ۖ وَجَعَلْنَا مِنَ الْمَآءِ كُلَّ شَىْءٍ حَىٍّ ۖ أَفَلَا يُؤْمِنُونَ
"Have those who disbelieved not considered that the heavens and the earth were a joined entity, and We separated them and made from water every living thing? Then will they not believe?"
(QS. Al-Anbiyaa 21: Verse 30)

* Via Qur'an English http://quran-en.com

^^^ does this not agree with above link?

Allah SWT says:

وَاللَّهُ خَلَقَ كُلَّ دَآبَّةٍ مِّنْ مَّآءٍ ۖ فَمِنْهُمْ مَّنْ يَمْشِى عَلٰى بَطْنِهِۦ وَمِنْهُمْ مَّنْ يَمْشِى عَلٰى رِجْلَيْنِ وَمِنْهُمْ مَّنْ يَمْشِى عَلٰىٓ أَرْبَعٍ ۚ يَخْلُقُ اللَّهُ مَا يَشَآءُ ۚ إِنَّ اللَّهَ عَلٰى كُلِّ شَىْءٍ قَدِيرٌ
"Allah has created every [living] creature from water. And of them are those that move on their bellies, and of them are those that walk on two legs, and of them are those that walk on four. Allah creates what He wills. Indeed, Allah is over all things competent."
(QS. An-Noor 24: Verse 45)

* Via Qur'an English http://quran-en.com

Every living creature created from water.

This theory, these verses, this knowledge was told to muslims years ago...but not understood.

Allah in 21:30, makes a case for humankind, begging the question if we have already discovered about Big Bang (heavens and earth joined then splitting) and all living things coming from the same substance, then considers why we should not beleive.

Call me crazy for taking this connection/interpretation because it does inspire belief. Especially because these verses were in here before we had any semblance of putting that evolution link together.

Check back to beginning of that timeline in your link, when we all were just nothing, water.

your "islamic theory of evolution" and the theory of evolution upheld by neo-darwinism are not the same: one believes in Allah as the Creator/Originator whereas the other one proposes God is a delusion. i'll stop here. :grin:

Edited January 8, 2018 by justAnothermuslim

wmehar2 · January 8, 2018

1 hour ago, justAnothermuslim said:

your "islamic theory of evolution" and the theory of evolution upheld by neo-darwinism are not the same: one believes in Allah as the Creator/Originator whereas the other one proposes God is a delusion. i'll stop here.

I won't suppose Darwin's theory is fact (its why they're called theories), and I guess we both can agree neither of us are supposing " Darwin's" is the exact way it all went down.

I may be ignorant but wasn't Charles Darwin agnostic, not quite an atheist?

I also must be ignorant of what neo- Darwinism is.

Either way I dont beleive his theory was an conceived as an excuse to prove the God is non-extant, he made an attempt to discuss his ideas in a scientific/objective narrative, and died unsure of God's existence...from what I've read.

8 hours ago, S.M.H.A. said:

You are a Literalist/Quranist? A Technical person?

Technical yes, literalist no, Quranist, don't think so.

A muslim that's not learning toward sunni nor shia, yes.. for now.

Though, it was while I still considered myself sunni a few years ago that I formulated this conclusion regarding Arabic being an ideal language for the memorization of information.

April 14, 2019

From Dr. Gary Miller's perspective:

https://d1.islamhouse.com/data/en/ih_books/single/en_The_Amazing_Quran.pdf

This is exactly what the Qur'an has - falsification tests. Some are old (in that they have already been proven true), and some still exist today. Basically it states, "If this book is not what it claims to be, then all you have to do is this or this or this to prove that it is false.” Of course, in 1400 years no one has been able to do “This or this or this,” and thus it is still considered true and authentic.

I suggest to you that the next time you get into dispute with someone about Islam and he claims that he has the truth and that you are in darkness, you leave all other arguments at first and make this suggestion. Ask him, “Is there any falsification test in your religion? Is there anything in your religion that would prove you are wrong if I could prove to you that it exists - anything?” Well, I can promise right now that people will not have anything - no test, no proof, nothing! This is because they do not carry around the idea that they should not only present what they believe but should also offer others a chance to prove they’re wrong. However, Islam does that.
A perfect example of how Islam provides man with a chance to verify it authenticity and “prove it wrong” occurs in the 4th chapter. And quiet honestly, I was very surprised when I first discovered this challenge. It states (Surah An-Nisa, 4:82):
“Do they not consider the Qur'an? Had it been from any other than Allah, they would surely have found therein much discrepancy.”

**Gaius I. Caesar** · April 14, 2019

On 1/7/2018 at 10:03 PM, wmehar2 said:

I may be ignorant but wasn't Charles Darwin agnostic, not quite an atheist?

My philosophy professor said he (Darwin) told others to believe in God and never lose faith in Him on his deathbed. Doesn't sound very agnostic or atheist to me. Although I have read from other conflicting sources he was an avowed atheist/agnostic and before that Unitarian Christian.

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